Testing

[Eliz]

Friday was testing and the Master Instructor/Chief Examiner was called out on a big time family emergency. I've covered testing once in the past - I got through it with no major problems but it never runs as smooth. I was 1/2 hour late leaving my day job, was met with a highway that basically looked like a parking lot. Picked up my kids, grabbed my gym bag, sat again on said parking lot/highway, and just blew through the door 5 minutes before testing was to start. Can everyone guess what kind of mood I was in?

Suffice it to say, EVERYONE was late. I understand - every where you turned traffic was backed up. It was just one of those days where there were accidents all over the place.

Testing was very difficult as kids were just literally trickling in. Parents were very apologetic, kids were upset. The whole set up was just bad. We finally hit a stride and things got rolling along. 50 minutes into the test, this little boy just strolls onto the matts EXPECTING to be tested. No explanation, no nothing. Just "here I am, test me." His group had already tested so I assured him we would come back to him - not to worry. He was just a little guy. I wasn't real thrilled with his attitude but the kids get dropped off when the parents get them there. They don't have a lot of control over that. Well "mom" proceeds to tear me a new one in the middle of the test. I needed to stop and test her son. It wasn't right that he be left until the end.

What would you have done?

I almost quit - that much I CAN tell you. Forever the diplomat, I yet again got things on an even mark. But as I agreed whole heartedly with "mom" (and stopped the test to test her son) - I also made a point to thank ALL of the parents there for making an effort to communicate with me and understanding.

[Abbax8]

Don't know what your asking, and since you were there and I wasn't, you decide how to handle it best.

I am curious though, how long would the kid have to wait until you could get to him? How long did it take to test him?

As far as mom tearing you a new one, I'm sorry, that I don't tolerate. Don't let the door hit you in the butt! Yes, it's not the kids fault, but that attitude from a parent needs to stopped the first time it happens or I guarantee it will happen again.

Peace

Dennis

[Eliz]

My post got a little scattered as I was simultaneously policing "church attire." Never a dull moment around here. :cool:

We were up to the advanced belts. Those kids are older and are typically very good. This was just the kids' test - the adults test at a totally seperate time. The boy would probably have waited about 15 minutes as there aren't so many advanced belts. Testing from VERY beginning to VERY end is about an hour 1/2.

I'm always an examiner during tests, but this was only the second time I had acted as chief examiner and was charged with leading/organizing the entire thing. I was told by more than one person that I should never have catered to the situation the way that I did. My opinion (at that time) was everyone was frazzled enough, why aggrivate the situation more. Now, of course, I'm totally confused. Thats why I asked - what would you have done?

[kmtsd]

I would have told the mom in question to wait. Its a tough situation, but you are the one who is in charge of testing and the parents have to trust that you know what is best. We had a similar situation when the mom proceeded to walk onto the floor in the middle of the test and take her child home.(her son was not prepared for the test-he didn't know his forms..and he was beginning to get upset because he was lost as heck.- this mom was advised not to let her kid test-but she insisted he test) My instructor told her calmly -"do not walk onto the floor... I understand you are worried. You can't disturb testing like this. This is my school and my test. I am in charge of this test. Please do not walk onto the floor." then my instructor asked the child if he would like to continue his test-- the kid was nervous but he wanted to finish. The kid ended up finishing his test,but we never saw him again after that.
Bottom line is: You wouldn't let your students disrespect you and you can't let the parents disrespect you either. It affects your control of the test/class. It affects the way other students and parents view and treat you. Do not get angry -but maintain control of your test. If they end up quitting then they needed to go. If they end up staying they often end up being your most loyal supporters.
What did your instructor say? :karate:

[tkdcanada]

I would have stopped the mom in her tracks with a: "I'm sorry, you'll have to speak to me after class." and continued with however I had chosen to go about the situation (making the kid wait). Although it's not the kid's fault, part of martial arts is discipline and respect and whether he (or his parents) could help being late or not, they must not expect that the others be inconvenienced to accommodate them.

[Mark Barlow]

I've had kids taken out of my dojo because I asked the parents to not disrupt class, quit talking on their cell phone, yell at their child (or another child) during class, etc.... On one occasion, I became so frustrated with a parent I expelled him and his son from the school. (In my defense, the father kept running onto the mat to "coach" his son and twice screamed at other children who were sparring his little darling.)

We run a fairly relaxed, informal dojo but certain protocol has to be followed. I'll attempt to deflect conflict with parents whenever possible but if they try to intimidate me or threaten, especially in front of other students and parents, my first response is always to let them know where the door is and that it swings both ways. Nothing lessens an instructors effectiveness faster than having a parent or student strut around after embarressing them. It's not about ego, it's about respecting the position if not the person.

It's easy for us to be Monday morning quarterbacks and I certainly understand why you allowed the child to test. At the time, it looked like the quickest way to end an unpleasant situation. Unfortunately, everyone who was at the test saw that being rude and loud is an effective way to get what you want.

The important thing is that you can stand back and reexamine the situation and have a gameplan if this should ever happen again.

[DragonMind]

You've received some excellent advice here. As Mark said, you get the behavior you reward. And that goes for parents as well. Demand respect, make sure everyone knows who is in charge, and tolerate misbehavior from no one. Personally, I'd use the incident in class later to discuss proper courtesy and behavior. If Mom gets offended, good. Maybe she'll change her behavior in future.

Something else to consider. When you have a set time for something, waiting for the stragglers only punishes those who made good decisions and arrived on time. When I teach day long classes and give people a break, I ALWAYS start back on the time I told them. I even started talking to an empty room once. I don't make a scene out of them arriving late, but I also won't take questions on whatever they missed nor will I reveiw any of that material until the end of class. It only takes once or twice and people are always back early from break. Things like bad traffic are an excuse for bad planning, not a reason to be accomodated. Sure, there can be real emergencies that make you late, but I would expect that after one of those, most instructors would be willing to accomodate something. However, that's because of their good graces and desire to be helpful, not because someone demands it.

If that many people had trouble getting to the test on time, you might also want to step back and ask if the starting time isn't bad planning on the instructor's part as well?

[Eliz]

Thank you all for your great words. :) I WILL demand a meeting TODAY with the master instructor and this woman. Now I'm not confused, I'm put out. I was definately ill prepared and hind sight is 20-20.

Students are not usually late for testing. (now late for their classes is another story) If anything, most of the students are on the matts well in advance. Friday really was the mother of all exceptions. In all my years of driving, I don't know that I have ever seen anything quite like it. Yes, cell phones have posed problems - GRRRRRR. Very young siblings not behaving is also an on-going issue - double GRRRRRR.

[tkdcanada]

I don't know if I would demand a meeting. I think that would be looking for more confrontation. You'll definitely know what to do if it happens again, though.

[Eliz]

I did, and all went well.

Generally speaking, I'm not too confrontational with people. Not to say I have NEVER lost my cool and jumped in someone's stuff. :D I brought to attention that there was an obvious problem/misunderstanding that I wanted to clear up. I spelled out the situation pretty generically and the Master Instructor pretty much took over from there. From that point on, I just basically listened.

Ol' mom got her hackles up a few times - started to run on at the mouth a few times - declared "eminant domain" in any matters regarding her child. She eventually figured out she wasn't going to gain any ground so cooled down by the end. Who knows if she will be back or not.

[Gae-Bek]

And this is one of the reasons that all of our testings are "closed". The only people allowed in the dojo are the students and the instructors. Granted we don't run a kids class anymore, but we had the same policy when we did...just had to inform the parents about when the test would end.

Eliz, you're definitely a better person than I am. Occasionally I've helped at another dojo where spectators are allowed for testings, and if a parent ever would've done something like that, I can admit that I would've gone-off on them.

[Eliz]

Eliz, you're definitely a better person than I am. Occasionally I've helped at another dojo where spectators are allowed for testings, and if a parent ever would've done something like that, I can admit that I would've gone-off on them.

Not better - just slower :D I guess Friday I was just frazzled, Saturday confused, Sunday - Monday really ticked off. It took me a few days to "get there." :laugh: For the benefit of the meeting Monday, I went into "neutral." That was not easy.

I know of a few schools that have closed testing. As an adult student and an instructor, I would prefer it. As a parent, though, I don't know. My daughter was involved with ballet for years and everything with ballet is closed. Quite literally, I would see her dance once a year at recitals - that was it. I always missed seeing her develop and progress along the way. Of course, after Friday, [parents be-darned] I'm ready to throw everyone out and BOLT the dojang doors. :laugh:

[DragonMind]

May I toss out another idea for testing I've used in the past for kids tests?

The actual test is during Friday night class time. No parents, spectators, etc. allowed. Saturday morning is the "public" test. Since the kids already know whether or not they've passed, they can relax and show off in front of Mom and Dad. Belt presentations are at the end so the parents can get pics, etc.

You could also use the Saturday time as a "2nd chance test", if you want but it needs to be the exception rather than the rule.

[jimsullivan1]

first off it is supposed to be an honor to learn any martial art and this should be explained to the parents and the kids. anyone showing disrespect to my teachings and class especialy on test time is no person i would want to carry on the sacred art and discipline that my sensei taught me.

[Eliz]

Well, the little guy was back last night. Strolled onto the matts late for class wearing blue jeans, a polo shirt turned backwards, and carrying his belt in his hand.

I THINK WE HAVE A WINNER!!!! *sarcasm*

3 minutes later he was leaving with his mother - again. Maybe this time it is for good.

[jakmak52]

If the situation was that everybody was late, flexibility is key.

[Bugeisha]

We do a pre-test same idea, Barry.
Same here. The real test is the night before during class, and those who pass are invited to the "testing" (promotion, really) the next day.

[DragonMind]

Do they know if they've passed before the second "testing"?

[Eliz]

Do they know if they've passed before the second "testing"?

There are several dojangs that I know of that conduct their promotions like that. Pre-testing is during class time, than you are basically invited to test for promotion. Students aren't invited unless they can pass - but no, they are not actually told "you passed, show up for your belt promotion." I guess if they were told in advance, they wouldn't take the actual test seriously.

We pre-test eligible students and basically advise them accordingly. Even if a student is told they could use a little extra time, they can still show up and test if they really want to give it a try. I've seen my share of students really pull it together between pre-testing and testing. And I've also seen my share of students basically fall apart between pre-testing and testing.

[DragonMind]

The way I've done it is that the Friday night session IS the real test, not a pre-test. It is conducted without the parents or spectators to interfere with the test or to add undue pressure. The "public testing" is really a show for the parents and spectators. Since the kids know if they've already passed, they can relax and strut their stuff and they usually do. I've frequently been able to use the public performance as an object lesson in how much better they perform when they're relaxed vs. under stress.

I use the week leading up to the test as their "pre-test" where we go over everything they are going to face on the test. I want pressure on them during the test, but I want to control how much and what kind, hence the banished parents. Kids need a lot of reinforcement that they're making progress because their goal-setting skills aren't as developed yet, so we do the public testing for them to get to show off and get recognition in front of their peers and parents.

[tbmonti]

First of all I do have a pre test that determines who will be allowed to take the actual test. This just helps me and the individual students know if they are ready or need to work on things until the next test. Secondly there is no way I would have put up with that type of interruption during a test or regular class. My parents treat me with the same respect that their children do, and know that it is expected. Respect for ones elders whether it be older in age or older as in taining longer or rank, is a valuable portion of martial arts philosophy. After all with out our philosopies what are we teaching but violence and agression. This is one of the reasons why I maintain a small dojang, so that I can personally monitor and influence each student. If as instructors we allow parents to walk on us and yell disrespectfully at us for any reason, we are teaching our children that people of authority (not just martial arts instructors but teachers and police officers etc.) don't really have to be shown the respect they should be, when we are upset with them. I beleive that I would have asked the lady and her child to leave at that point and come back later to discuss the future of her sons martial arts career.

Respectfully,
Anthony B. Monti