The history of Hwa Rang Do?

[Oniw17]

I thought that it was ancient, from a game that I played. Then, some members of this forum said it started in the early 1900s, on an other thread. THEN, controversy struck when I seen this link while messing around in school. This (http://www.hwarangdoeastcoast.com/index.shtml) says that Hwa Rang(flower knights, roughly translated) date back to over 2000 years ago. Can someone please tell me which history is accurate?


Thank You

[kodanjaclay]

Hwa Rang Do in the form that it now is in was created by Lee, Joo Bang. It has a synthesized history that ignores the cold hard facts of WWII... namely the Japanese tried to eliminate. and came pretty close, any non-Japanese pastimes.

I hate to be the one to bring that up buts its only around 50 years or so old.

The hwa rang themselves do date bake to the Three Kingdoms period. The art that bears their name is not the same art they practiced. They were founded in Silla and supposedly has highly defined skills. Based on world history, I would think that what they did would have been highly Chinese.

[rupertmja]

The Hwarang were warriors. Ask a Korean and they'll just tell you they rode around on horses with swords and bows and arrows like any other warrior. I don't think they had a specific martial art other than general military training. The only people that will say that are people who do Hwarang-do - an art that exists only in the USA (not Korea). Also realise that the idea of 'do' as attached to the ends of words is a Japanese concept. Using it betrays the recent origins of the art. Think - you don't see Taichi-do or Wing Chun-do but you do get a lot of it in Korea because of 'modern' influence from Japan.

[ushankido]

The Hwarang were warriors. Ask a Korean and they'll just tell you they rode around on horses with swords and bows and arrows like any other warrior. I don't think they had a specific martial art other than general military training. The only people that will say that are people who do Hwarang-do - an art that exists only in the USA (not Korea). Also realise that the idea of 'do' as attached to the ends of words is a Japanese concept. Using it betrays the recent origins of the art. Think - you don't see Taichi-do or Wing Chun-do but you do get a lot of it in Korea because of 'modern' influence from Japan.

I noticed Hwa Rang Do is starting to build up its school in Korea. I remember seeing a few schools in Seoul a while back.

Here is their Korea link:

http://www.hwarangdo.or.kr

http://www.hwarangdo.com/Academies/Korea.htm

[moogong]

- you don't see Taichi-do or Wing Chun-do but you do get a lot of it in Korea because of 'modern' influence from Japan.

FYI...wingchundo does exsist... www.wingchundo.com

:D

[rupertmja]

Well, now I have seen it all. Next will be Taichi-do.

[jungdo]

Yes the art is only 50 years old. The Hwa rang how ever have been around for 2000 years

[DragonMind]

There is so little documentation on the HwaRang that they might as well be grouped with leprechauns and Yetis. There is a new theory out that the actual characters were mistranslated and that the HwaRang were, shall we say, "pleasure boys".

[D Dempsey]

There is so little documentation on the HwaRang that they might as well be grouped with leprechauns and Yetis. There is a new theory out that the actual characters were mistranslated and that the HwaRang were, shall we say, "pleasure boys".

If this is true then the whole idea of Hwawrang Do just got a whole lot funnier.

[jungdo]

And like I said in the other post this is sick and not true.
But I will let you make up your mind. As to what you believe to be lies.

[DragonMind]

The lack of documentation on the Hwa Rang is well-known so it is hard to say anything definitive about them. As I said, this other is a theory. We may never know if it is accurate or not, but it bears consideration until disproven.

[jungdo]

The lack of documentation on the Hwa Rang is well-known so it is hard to say anything definitive about them. As I said, this other is a theory. We may never know if it is accurate or not, but it bears consideration until disproven.
But the thing of its sir, that just be cause it is in print dosn't make it true.
I am sure you do not believe eveything that you read on the net or even in the news that you read in the paper. You got to think where is this person coming from. When you read something like that. What would that person have to gain in the end for printing something like that out into the world.
I am not saying that I know everything either about the hwa rang. But in the training that we get. We are tested on the history of the hwa rang as a part of our belt testing. (NO JOKE) And the only time I have ever came a cross that is from the net. Or people that have an axe to grind with the people of hwa rang do.

[DragonMind]

But the thing of its sir, that just be cause it is in print dosn't make it true.
I am sure you do not believe eveything that you read on the net or even in the news that you read in the paper. You got to think where is this person coming from. When you read something like that. What would that person have to gain in the end for printing something like that out into the world.
I am not saying that I know everything either about the hwa rang. But in the training that we get. We are tested on the history of the hwa rang as a part of our belt testing. (NO JOKE) And the only time I have ever came a cross that is from the net. Or people that have an axe to grind with the people of hwa rang do.
Considering that the total documented "history" of the Hwa Rang is only a couple of phrases, that must be a short test. I agree that just because something is in print doesn't make it true. Nor does that make it false. It is an alternate theory, nothing more or less.

As for self-interest, I suggest you look at the history of Hwa Rang Do and its founder. Who has more to gain in this situation: an academic or the GrandMaster selling books, videos and training?

[jungdo]

As for self-interest, I suggest you look at the history of Hwa Rang Do and its founder. Who has more to gain in this situation: an academic or the GrandMaster selling books, videos and training?
I do know the history of the man. And things of that nature I will not discuss in this forum. For the simple fact that it will turn into a hwa rang do bash fest.
And I am sure you and I have better things to do with our time.
Yes he could have alot to gain buy that. Let let me ask you this, why are there so few hwa rang do schools. It is not be cause we think that we are all that. It is more of, some people like one thing some like another. And hwa rang do as an art might not be right for every one. And that is fine by me.
It is kind of cool knowing things the rest of the world may not.
And also we feel the need to not water down things. Like alot of arts do.
Kind of like the mixed-ma crowd. Who say I will take alittle of this and alittle of that. And this is great for them if they like that. However what alot of them fail to understand is that. It needs to flow with each other.
Just because you are a good stand up fighter dosn't mean you will be a goud ground fighter. We start almost from the get go doing alittle of everything.
So that the student can flow from one thing to another.

[DragonMind]

Let let me ask you this, why are there so few hwa rang do schools.
Many possible answers to that, some of which would sound like bashing. The scarcity or preponderance of schools is no indicator of quality. Why are there so many McDojos?


It is kind of cool knowing things the rest of the world may not.
Sorry, but that mystic crap isn't going to fly. A statement like that makes me start checking my wallet and wondering about deprogramming.


And also we feel the need to not water down things. Like alot of arts do. Kind of like the mixed-ma crowd. Who say I will take alittle of this and alittle of that. And this is great for them if they like that. However what alot of them fail to understand is that. It needs to flow with each other.
Just because you are a good stand up fighter dosn't mean you will be a goud ground fighter. We start almost from the get go doing alittle of everything.
So that the student can flow from one thing to another.
That sounds suspiciously like MMA bashing and I thought we weren't going to do that... :cool:

[jungdo]

It is not about bashing, it is more about having the eastern mind set.
Not every one is into that kind of thing. Just like not every one is into the god thing. And I don't feel the need to bash mma. It is petty stuff.
I Would like to take it for what it is worth that is all. And you can read into that whatevert you wish. And I am sorry just because you may not understand something doesn't mean that you need to be reprogramed.
It is more of a non willing ness to open the mind. Now I am not saying that I even believe in all the mystical stuff. But I am willing to open my mind to see what is going on before I open my mouth and have an oppion on it.
Like with your arts I would not comment on the arts that you do because I have never done them so I could not speak on them. However every feels that they know everything about Hwa rang do. But most of them have never trainned in that art. To know what is going on.

[Rasputin]

Yes the art is only 50 years old. The Hwa rang how ever have been around for 2000 years

Pardon my ignorance, but if the art itself is only 50 years old, wouldn't logic indicate that anyone practicing it could not be a Hwa rang, since they would by definition be practicing a 2000 year old art?

Is there any proof which shows that any actual Hwa rang created Hwa rang do, or was it simply pieced together from someone's best guess of what the 2000-year-old art used to be?


It is kind of cool knowing things the rest of the world may not.

Yes, coolness factor definitely increases with the inverse of the number of people privy to the information. But beware: charlatans often protect their interests by shrouding their work in mystery. Only those with something to hide keep secrets.

One final note, because I am feeling generous: Budoseek is a no-BS zone. We have gathered here together to provide a venue for the sharing of information and promote fellowship between martial artists. Post here with the intent of humbly learning from the collective thousands of man-years spent learning the martial arts, and you will come away enlightened. If, however, you are here with something to prove, you will not last long.

[jungdo]

With all do respect Rasputin.
I have not thing to prove to any one. I spent 4 years as a marine. So I feel the need to prove nothing. I did however want to learn somethings and maybe even share somethings. Without the hate that comes with being on forums and being in this art.
And to answer questions about the art here you go I hope this helps.
http://www.hwarangdo.com/hrd1.htm

[Rasputin]

Alright, since I am not completely facile with the arts and history of Korea, I will investigate for myself, starting with your link.

Thanks,


Dave

[Rasputin]

Before I continue my investigation, the page you sent me to is replicated MANY times on other sites, word-for-word. Do you have any other sources which you can share, or is this one page all I have to go by? Unfortunately, I do not read Korean, and I don't want to join any sites to get my information.

[Rasputin]

My first stop: see what Wikipedia had to say on the subject.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hwarangdo

It seems to be reasonably objective--I recommend that anyone who is still interested in the topic check it out.

[Webmaster]

With all do respect Rasputin.
I have not thing to prove to any one. I spent 4 years as a marine.
And you never learned that Marine is ALWAYS capitalized?

[Gae-Bek]

Yes the art is only 50 years old. The Hwa rang how ever have been around for 2000 years

The correct way to state that, would be to say that the Hwarangdo existed 1000 years ago. They do not exist today. Unless you're claiming that Joo Bang Lee is somehow the last remaining Hwarangdo, in which case you should put down the crack pipe.


I do know the history of the man. And things of that nature I will not discuss in this forum.

Why not? There's no harm in discussing the claims of Joo Bang Lee. Why not tell us what you have been told, and argue your point?


For the simple fact that it will turn into a hwa rang do bash fest.

You know why people bash Hwarangdo? Because the historical basis of the art is questionable, at best. And if that wasn't bad enough, they claim that Hwarangdo was the fore-runner to every major Japanese Martial Art as well. They didn't just re-write their own history; they tried to re-write everyone else's, too.


Location: Mi/WI

So where in Milwaukee do you train? Or is the "Mi" for Michigan?

[jungdo]

I live in MI but back and forth to madison (soon) And soon will be moving there for my job.
And as far as capitalizing a word, I don't need to sir. I know what I have done with my life. I don't a word to give my life meaning. And as far as not talking about the history of some one. It kind of goes without saying as far as maturity level. I don't feel the need to spread gossip like children. It is not that I think I am all that. I just like to think I am better than that. You have the choice to believe what you want. And for the most part the people on here have all ready made up there minds without having trainned in the art. Or they have been trainned by people that have been kick out for there own short comings. It has become so predictable with everyone on forums these days.
They don't want to learn about anybody else. They just want to spread there own agenda. And it dosn't matter if it is right or not.
But here is a question for all that bash the art.
When it comes down to it and you are in a fight. What is going to matter your history that so many people are way to hung up on. Or that fact that you can defend yourself and walk a way safe.
And another thing I you can tell about people on forums. (an and if this gets me kick out ok) You can tell how much some body really trains by how much they post on forums. If they have few posts that means they are training and have a life. And if they have alot well you get the point.

[jungdo]

So in light of what I said I think this will be my last post on this forum.
For the fact that I need to train and talk a little less.

[Rasputin]

You are welcome to post or not post, as you like. So far you have been respectful towards others, and that is most of what we ask here.

Per your other statements, I will make a few comments, taking a break as I am from the installation of my new dishwasher.


And as far as capitalizing a word, I don't need to sir.

Our illustrious webdeity is just yanking your chain. He is a Marine (as are quite a few of our other members) and thought you could use a little zing.


I don't feel the need to spread gossip like children.

Gossip is an ugly word. Budoseek is primarily a Traditional Martial Arts website, although there are forums here which deal with all kinds of modern and eclectic arts as well. As such, the origin and traditions of a martial art are important to many of our members. Most of the time it isn't an issue.

The fact is, what is it that differentiates a martial art from something that somebody just came up with in their basement? A history and tradition of useful service, i.e. the art should have proved useful in combat not once, or twice, but (IMHO) dozens or hundreds of times.

If it uses scientific principles to explain how it works, even better. Science has proven itself to be a workable method for describing the way that the world functions, as well as predicting the outcomes of future experiments.

That being said, a plethora of martial artists with lifetimes of experience have questioned the claims of the person who created Hwa Rang Do. The written (provable) history just isn't there to back him up.

Does that mean that HRD would not allow someone to win a fight against someone else? Not necessarily. It very well may. But it shouldn't pretend to the long and storied history that it does. That is lying, and is the mark of an ego desperate for attention. It all happened long before you came along.


You can tell how much some body really trains by how much they post on forums. If they have few posts that means they are training and have a life. And if they have alot well you get the point.

See, now we're getting somewhere. That is what we call an Hypothesis. You have a theory that # of posts is inversely proportional to time spent training or living one's life. Great.

However, it doesn't bear up in the face of the data. Most people can only train for a couple of hours a day before they begin to overtrain. That leaves a good 12 hours each day after sleeping and eating are taken into account. Work takes up 8-9 of that, but many of the people on this board work in jobs which provide internet access, and they can check the board and post during their break time.

Great, now we've cleared that up, we can go back to Mr. Tursack's original question. I believe that the preponderance of evidence strongly indicates that, while there was a group of males in ancient Korea called the Hwa Rang, there is not sufficient data in existence to either prove that they were warriors nor that they have any link to the art Hwa Rang Do which is practiced today.

As such, this thread has answered the OP and shall die a graceful and gentle death. May your search for truth be fulfilling.