Aikido Clips

[jwinch2]

These might have been posted before but I just came across them and thought they were pretty interesting!


Enjoy!

Jason


http://www10.ocn.ne.jp/~siba/index11.htm

[Peter Rehse]

Hi Jason

For some people the link might not work - just change the %5C to a /

This is the Shodokan randori that I will be doing for the grading. It's full resistance and in fact I recognize a number of the players - they are from up-north Tokyo way so I doubt I will be going up against anyone there. I particularily like the timing showed for Shomen-ate (#s 2,6 and especially 10).

Great stuff - and again no one wants to go down.

[Erik]

Is anyone getting "Page On - File Not Found?"

[Musubi Dojo]

Those were great! Thanks for porsting them!

That's what Kote gashi really looks like alright, sans tails breakfalls.
Waki gatame made me cringe, thought somebody was going to lose an arm.....

Cheers
c

[Musubi Dojo]

Is there some sort of weapon involved in the couterattacks?

[Peter Rehse]

No - they use the tanto so that there is some imputus to give a fast strong attack but the other person is unarmed. There is a version where both are unarmed but this is quite difficult to do without degenerating into Judo. Not saying Judo is degenerate but the idea is to use Aikido distance and timing.

Erik see my previous post about the page problem.

[Erik]

Got it, Peter.

One guy is armed and the other takes him down - while taking the weapon!

This was really cool!

[Musubi Dojo]

No - they use the tanto so that there is some imputus to give a fast strong attack but the other person is unarmed. There is a version where both are unarmed but this is quite difficult to do without degenerating into Judo. Not saying Judo is degenerate but the idea is to use Aikido distance and timing.



To avoid the hunched over, sprawling sort of action? Interesting....

[Peter Rehse]

To avoid the hunched over, sprawling sort of action? Interesting....
Doesn't always work does it. :D


If you define Aikido as what happens while you close into grappling distance it might make more sense.

[Musubi Dojo]

Makes sense Peter.

We do a "Full Mixed" sparring that starts standing and then goes where it goes. Striking/kicking to Grappling/Aiki to groundwork. Working the Aiki into that sort of sparring has always been a challenge. I've managed Kote Gaeshi and some Irimi kind of stuff the odd Waki Gatame but thats about it. It's usually a brief exchange of kicks and punches that closes into some sort of sloppy take down or a foot sweep, maybe a judo throw, then it's ground work.

I'd heard of "Aikido that Spars", but it's really neat to actually see it.

Cheers

C

[Peter Rehse]

Interestingly there is a sub group at Honbu of which I'm part of that doesn't like shiai - we find the rules too restrictive. When we do randori and go to ground it doesn't stop, counters can be done at anytime and different body parts (leave it alone guys) can be grabbed.

Randori is still fully resistant but certain safety considerations are essential if the contest variation which is shiai is to be kept safe and reasonably fair (we don't have weight classes).

I do Judo randori the same way.

Judo partner "You can't do that its illegal".
Me "Ref I don't see no ref".

[jwinch2]

Good philosophy Peter!

By the way, I have your training program pretty much figured out. I will send it to you tomorrow!

Jason

[Peter Rehse]

By the way Chris

Shodokan training methods introduce variations in randori to emphasize particular aspects. In your case why not try variations on occaision where PK is not possible to get more use of grappling/aiki. I will bet good money that you will see more of the latter techniques used in the "Full Mixed" that you do.

[Peter Rehse]

Thanks Jason looking forward to it.

[Musubi Dojo]

By the way Chris

Shodokan training methods introduce variations in randori to emphasize particular aspects. In your case why not try variations on occaision where PK is not possible to get more use of grappling/aiki. I will bet good money that you will see more of the latter techniques used in the "Full Mixed" that you do.


Thanks Peter; I'll put the ideas forward.

Good luck with your grading!!
c

[Aikitech]

Nice thread.

Peter, once again you give me insight and encouragement. It's good to know that there are folks at hombu who are expanding the randori format a bit from the shiai paradigm into something more. Been doing a similar thing here with the knife attacks, gets really interesting I tell you with resistance and with the person attacking with tanto from any direction.

Also, I'm looking at removing the limits to the kaeshiwaza (i.e. only atemi waza) that can be done by the person holding the knife. Of course this is coming out of shiai randori and going more into a sort of "self defence" (Go Shin??) randori.

Maybe we are onto something as far as expanding the randori repertoire goes.

Happy training and good luck with the test.

Gambatte.:bow:

[Peter Rehse]

Actually Larry we are not expanding anything. Just that we don't particularily like Shiai because of the necessary restrictions. Much more fun playing around with someone you know and trust - where a little playfulness goes a long way. Nothing new here.

The atemi waza restriction (which does not exist in toshu randori by the way) is one of the things I don't like. Also the two hand rule - yuck.

[Aikitech]

Actually Larry we are not expanding anything. Just that we don't particularily like Shiai because of the necessary restrictions. Much more fun playing around with someone you know and trust - where a little playfulness goes a long way. Nothing new here.

The atemi waza restriction (which does not exist in toshu randori by the way) is one of the things I don't like. Also the two hand rule - yuck.
Cool.

As far as our training goes, it is aimed moreso towards effective application of waza in the event of self defence situations mainly. As such, folks who want to do Shiai are drilled on what techniques, counters and attacks are limited to that format and guided in how the rules operate and how to follow them. My personal belief is that a good SD person should be able to do well in shiai as long as he knows how to separate the two things and stay within the rules when in shiai.

Playing around with someone trustworthy is great for developing the elements that are not usually addressed or allowed in typical training however, good stuff.
:bow:

[Peter Rehse]

Your assuming that typical training is geered toward shiai.

[Aikitech]

Your assuming that typical training is geered toward shiai.
Well it was typical in the way I was taught originally. One of the problems of isolation I guess.

Good to know that the paradigm used outside is actually a lot wider.

Yours.
:bow:

[Dan Harden]

Peter

I reviewed the films, just a few questions on the style. What is allowed? I noticed that there were no true leg techniques. Ya know what I mean? Trips or binds or sweeps, similar to judo or jujutsu. What about sacrifice type throws? Are these out by rules or out because they are not in the style? Also when you guys at the honbu go to the ground are chokes and strangles allowed? Arm bars, leg bars, punches.

If you don't want to respond here or feel it is not appropiate to answer publicly I understand. Or you can shoot me a P.M. if you are so inclined.

Thanks for replies
Dan

[Peter Rehse]

Hi Dan;

You wont see ground and leg work nor the grabbing of cloth in the formal shiai setting. Randori among friends is a little looser. I recently posted on Aikiweb (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?p=108002#post108002) something that might go aways to explain why.



And the cool thing is Hori-san is originally a Judo guy.

Rob no offense - Micheal I was using perfectly legal Judo randori techniques in Judo randori. My timing was unusual but finding that hook is what you are supposed to do in Judo. Sorry you feel that the lack of Koshinage tosses Shodokan Aikido out the window for you but ... well maybe its time to once again re-visit some of Tomiki's thinking.

Kenji Tomiki was one of Kano's direct students as he was of Ueshiba M. I think its fair to say he was well versed in both Judo and Aikido and the strengths and weaknesses of both. And here is the crux - he developed Shodokan Aikido randori not just because Aikido was missing a Judo randori element but also because Judo was missing atemi waza and a good chunk of useful kansetsu waza from its randori. The design of Shodokan randori is to emphasize the waza not found in Judo randori and a distance more conducive to the Aiki techniques.

The rules of Shodokan randori/shiai are designed with the above in mind. If you wish to become a more all round fighter Tomiki insisted you should do both and a couple of other things besides. You will find at Shodokan Honbu (current and historically) a large number of people that either came from a Judo background (Olympic level/prefectural champion) or cross-train. Because of this way of thinking Tomiki was pretty clear that when you train Judo do Judo, when you train Aikido do Aikido. That is not to say that when in a playful randori move the occasional Judo specific move is not tossed in there. I don't think anyone would have a problem with a Koshinage in randori - shiai is another matter. By the way Shodokan Aikido shiai does not have weight classes - another reason certain Judo techniques are not included.

FYI Yoseikan Budo has a randori style which does not make the distinction between Judo and Aikido randori.

Now once again - I did not enter a Judo dojo to demonstrate the superiority of Aikido technique - I just wanted to up my randori time with the closest thing to Shodokan Aikido randori I could find. As a bonus I am learning some neat tricks and insights into my own Aikido. Perhaps Michael that's were you are going wrong.

[scruffysmileyface]

I am an absolute beginner, a rokyu in Tomiki aikido, and I'm just learning about what separates and defines the different styles. I am also completely unfamiliar with the concept of competition aikido.

The techniques in these clips look to me like they use muscle and leverage to perform the waza. Am I correct in saying this? I've been under the impression that aiki does not make use of muscle and leverage, but rather redirects the opponent's momentum, achieving first an off-balance and then an ate or nage or whatever the waza may call for.

Is this correct?

If someone showed me these clips and asked me to classify these techniques, I would have said they were some kind of judo or aikijujutsu, because I don't see what I would recognize as the aiki princliple at work. Can anyone enlighten me on this?

thanks,

[Ron Tisdale]

Aiki-ju-jutsu....what would make you think there is no Aiki in an art named aiki-ju-jutsu?

Just currious,

Ron

[Peter Rehse]

Aikido should not have to rely on an opponents momentum - in a combative situation only a fool will give you that advantage. Aiki in a nutshell is just superb timing and that is what you are seeing in those clips.

Its a basic tenet of resistive training that it takes far less power to shut down a technique than to force it through. When you look at two young bucks of about the same size doing this sort of thing there is no way power and leverage is going to get you where you want to go. Then you look at the little guy pulling off shomenate on a much larger opponent (again full resistance not cooperative) and you understand just how good some of these guys are.

Randori is where theory is tested.

[scruffysmileyface]

Ron - What I meant was that it wasn't something I recognized. Since I don't know anything about aikijujutsu (or judo, for that matter), I might have said maybe that's what it was. My point was that I didn't recognize it.

Peter - Thanks for the explanation, it makes a little more sense to me now.