Anything similar to Tang Soo Do?

[fadingrise]

I was wondering if there is anything similar to Tang Soo Do (I heard Tae Kwon Do is, but I don't know if that is correct). There is no Tang Soo Do school in my area and I will be going back to college in a couple months where on campus they offer Tang Soo Do. Is there any style or anything that can be done to prepare for it specifically (in another thread I posted I was told certain general exercises to do, which I will be doing)? Maybe a video or book? I have not done any martial arts yet, and I want to start whenever possible.
Thanks

[Pale Rider]

If you are interested in taking something that is similiar to TSD, then try to look for Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do. They offer pretty much the same hyungs, and most of the time with it being MDK, you can interchange rather quickly.

[LADD]

Try a Shotokan School. Pretty close, too.

[Pale Rider]

Mr. Ladd is also right. The forms found in Shotokan are almost identical. Instead of them being called Pyung Ahn - they are called Heian. Other then the hip torque more found in Korean arts, Japanese Shotokan bares a very strong resemblance to TSD.

[LADD]

Ever actually BEEN in a Shotokan school, there, Bill?? They emphasize hip movement as much as any TSD school I've ever seen.

[TonyU]

Mr. Ladd,
It is obvious that you have personal issues with Mr. Richards.
I strongly suggest that leave it out of this forum.
Personal attacks will not be tolarated here.

[LADD]

Tony,
Where did you see a personal attack in my post?? Are you disputing what I said about the hip issues in shotokan??
I'd be interested to hear where you found a personal attack in my post.

[TonyU]

As a Shorin Ryu stylist I am very familiar with the hip factor.
My concern is your relationship with Mr. Richards,
here on this thread and from this thread;
http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=106342#post106342
I do not want to see it evolve into an ugly situation on here.
We welcome you and your experiences, but would rather see personal issues handled privately.

[Pale Rider]

And yes I have been to Shotokan's schools. I have worked with several people who were in Shotokan, and I personally have not found that they had the hip rotations like that in TSD.

[fadingrise]

I searched for some schools that offer shotokan or Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do, but did not find any near to where I live. I found a Tae Kwon Do school that offers a style called Chang Hun. Would this be worth working towards if I'm going to be changing to Tang Soo Do in a couple months?

[Pale Rider]

Dan,

The best thing that I can suggest to you if Tang Soo Do is your ultimate goal and this is my own personal opinion.

If you are only limited to the Tae Kwon Do classes then I would go ahead and enroll in the class. What this will do is build up the foundations that are similiar - i.e. stances, kicks, punches, blocks etc...

The main differenence may be the forms, terminology etc...

So if you wanted to enroll in the TKD class and then later on take on TSD you will have a good solid foundation already built. There will be some subtle differences, but I am sure that you will adapt.

If you want, there are sites with the TSD forms on them, that you can learn along the way.... (but I wouldn't advise that until you get mid-level at least in your training so to avoid confusion)

All IMO..

[LADD]

Dan,
E-mail me privately, and I'll see if I can help you.

pamaraleigh@yahoo.com

Jason Ladd

[LADD]

Tony,
You never told me where you found personal attacks in my comments to Bill.

I may have been pointed, direct, and maybe a little sarcastic, but I have not attacked anyone on this forum.

I don't think there is any need to be so sensitive.

[arod]

Ladd.
You seem to think you are smart… as many people do. You seem to think you are experienced in martial arts… as many people do. You seem to think you can fool the readers of this forum by the selection of a few carefully arranged words. I will admit to my weakness now, as I simply could not stop myself from responding to your ridiculousness. Let me just say without any personal attacks of course; you are a joke.

Andy Rodriques

[LADD]

Andy,
You don't know enough about me to make any of those judgements. What you have done is make a personal attack, and as I have been notified, this forum will not be tolerant of such things.
Why don't you tell me what you know of my intellect? Make sure you supply evidence, because what we are talking about is what you KNOW and not what you THINK. Why don't you tell me what you KNOW about my martial arts experience? Thats what I thought. Now shut up, and go away.

[Dennis Monk]

Alright, thats it. No more warnings.
First, Mr. Ladd you started out early by basically calling out someone you had prior issues with, for being a fraud. I don't know if that is the case or not, but this is definitely not the place.
Second, Mr. Rodriques
you are a joke. What part of no personal attacks to do not understand? You are also in violation of new forum policy. Immediately go to your User CP tab and edit your profile to include your real full name in the space provided.

[LADD]

Well, Dennis, if I think someone is a fraud, I will say so. If a public forum, for the purpose of martial education is not a place to voice such suspicions, then where is? If you are a real martial artists, with integrity, and you suspect someone of being a fraud, or of being a charloton then you MUST question them, and their motives in order to lay to rest your suspicions, or to expose them. If you and and this forum doesn't care about such things, then fine.
Now, look, I'm not going to agree with, nor will I be able to respect, nor will I like, nor will I pretend to do any of the aforementioned to everyone that happens to don a uniform and call themselves martial artist.
Now, yes, I have prior issues with Bill Richards, and No, I don't have much respect for him based on our prior history. I'm not going to get into all of the reasons why. Bill knows, and you can ask him if you really want to know.
Yes, I think that it is innaccurate for Bill to call what he is doing a new style, and he a founder. From what he has explained to me, it is simply another perspective on the study of what we refer to as Tang Soo Do.
Also, I think its enough that we all see that "arod" can't respond to my questions about his post.

[Dennis Monk]

Thre have been many a "fraud" exposed here but that is with 100% proof, not one person's personal agenda that he has with another. For all intents and purposes it is best for you and Mr. Richards to either get along on don't comminucate with each other on this web site. We don't alow snipe attacks or flame wars here. Feel free to be skeptical and voice questions, don't feel free to discredit without absolute proof.

[LADD]

Well, once again, I haven't started any 'flame wars' here.
No, Bill Richards and I will not be able to simply 'get along' as you put it, and yes we will butt heads. We are in two, separate, opposed camps as it stands now. I have not spoken of many of the reasons that I disrespect Bill Richards, and I have been charitable enough NOT to speak of such things, but rather to only say that I am highly skeptical of his ability to create a new, viable 'system' of martial arts. In another thread, my suspicions have been founded as the more he speaks of it, it is not a separate style at all, but rather a personal ryupa of an existing system. Again, a little too sensitive, I think.........

[Dennis Monk]

Then take this as you will. If you make any written personal attacks, or violate the rules of this forum, you will not be allowed to post here any longer. We are simply trying to keep the peace and make this a discussion board where people can compare and contrast different ideas about the martial arts. If as you say, you cannot gaet along, then you will end up being asked to leave.

[LADD]

Dennis,
You've got no cause to issue such warnings and threats to me for something that I have not done.
Back off, man. I haven't done anything wrong here.

[arod]

Ladd. I apologize for not responding earlier. I do work for a living and fortunately life does exist outside of this forum. You are right I know little about your experiences and I do not know you. Additionally, my statement about your intellect was merle a wake up call. I was trying to tell you that you are as transparent as a sheet of glass and you can not fool the readers of this forum. You should not assume we could not see through your sarcasm. I think it is you who are being too sensitive…
Good bad or indifferent I couldn’t care less about you. I do care about reading useful information and opinions on this forum. My time is limited on the net because I actually have a life… not a disparaging remark don’t be offended. My point is; it is a little frustrating to read continuos disrespectful remarks about individuals that clearly have been contributing to this forum way longer than you. I could be mistaken but I am sure I am not alone on this. I will also say I am disappointed that the moderators have not shut you down. You say you are not sniping but it’s only a half-truth. The fact is you will continue in your sarcastic way, to attack anyone who disagrees with you. So you are right about one thing. I do not know you and for now anyway, I consider that to be a good thing. I do not like to judge people harshly. I have stated in past threads that I do not like judgmental people. It is true, but you have made it difficult for anyone to form a positive impression about you… I am sorry for that too.

Dennis. I apologies to the forum regarding my apparent lack of respect for the rules. I can only say, right or wrong that I was trying to be as direct as possible by making a comparison. I will make the advised changes to my user CP (or try to anyway).

Andy Rodriques

[LADD]

Arod,
"attack anyone who disagrees with me"....hmmm..examples please......

I have opinions about Bill, because of past, and present exprience. I have not been judgemental.

It is you, pal, who have been judgemental of me, without knowing me. I'm not too concerned with rather or not you think I've made a good impression on you. I wasn't trying to impress you to start out with. You seem to have quite the great impression of yourself and Bill Richards. Great. Enjoy each other's company! I'm not snipping, here, I'm just being honest.

[arod]

Dennis,
You've got no cause to issue such warnings and threats to me for something that I have not done.
Back off, man. I haven't done anything wrong here.

I do not know Bill Richards. It seems we are both guilty of assumptions
As for examples…

[Pale Rider]

And Mr. Rodriques has a very valid point in which some martial artists on the net yet to realize. I have not met either one of you, nor have I trained with any one of you - and for me to assume what you know or don't know would be just that. Ignorance in my part. That is why I like being in discussions where I can learn, and pass on information.

I will never state at any time that I know it all. There is always someone who knows more. I may come up with ideas from time to time, and ask people about them, but that doesn't mean just because I do that I am going to open a can of criticism from others.

What I see clearly is that alot of times people will go to "friendly" boards to gather information to take to the hostile boards and use as ammo. Alot of times some martial artists are eager to spread gossip just like old washerwomen (I believe that was said here earlier.)

That is something that I won't do. What I say in one board, I keep to one board. Unless for some reason somebody else takes the information and smears it. The reason for this is simple. Why should I basically retype what I had said over and over again?

I look at all martial artists as someone I can learn from. 99% of the time I have to defend myself from onslaughts made by people who outrank me, and that doesn't make the style TSD look good at all.
People tell me to have patience and learn, then why do I see alot of the ones in the same style attacking those who are under them?

I do my best to lead by example. If I ask questions because I am curious, then I know that my students will too. If I get condemned over the questions I asked, should I condemn my students? NO. Everyone is human, and regardless of what people think on some issues - no one knows it all. I feel there is something to learn even from Gup students.

[fadingrise]

Haha, Well thanks for the help at the beginning of the form all. I emailed you back Ladd, I hope that's the info. you were looking for. Pale Rider what was that site you were talking about, if you could post it I would like to take a look at it just to see what Tang Soo Do is like, since I have no experience or idea what it will be like.

[Pale Rider]

I have to apologize that this topic got so far off track....
I can only give you reference to my outtake of Tang Soo Do. There are so many...

Here is mine Tang Soo Do United (http://tsdu.org)

Of course (I hope Master Mac doesn't mind) here is his site:
Master Mac's TSD (http://mchenry.homeip.net/TangSooDo/index.htm)

There are many others... but I like to give an overall view with various aspects of the arts.

[Webmaster]

Dennis,
You've got no cause to issue such warnings and threats to me for something that I have not done.
Back off, man. I haven't done anything wrong here.
Oh yes he does. Enjoy your short 10 day vacation. If you think you can play nice and not violate the rules, we may allow you to stick around, but you will have to prove it once your suspension has concluded.

[Gene Williams]

Ah, rats Robert! I was enjoying the girlie fight between those two. :D

[arod]

Yah…now that you mention it, I did sound kinda like a mambee-pambee...LOL

[Pale Rider]

I on my own behalf want to apologize for any inconvenience this disturbance has caused. I did my best to give an honest answer to a question.

I hope that you found what you were looking for fadingrise?

[Dennis Monk]

Well, thats what I get for having to go to work. Thank you for handling that Robert.
Arod: Thank you for fixing your profile, and welcome to Budoseek.
Pale Rider: Even with the personal attacks you, tried your best to maintain a positive composure. You are comended.
All: I am not even the moderator in this forum, but when I strart seeing the flames being fanned I will step in. It is a shame that someone had to come here with a personal agenda from the start.
And finally Mr. Ladd: If you do decide to come back and post here after your 10 day vacation, feel free to engage in friendly manner or not at all. You already told me once that you will not and cannot do so. If that is truly the case, do the adult thing and go elsewhere.

[fadingrise]

Thanks for those Tang Soo Do sites. I looked for Chun Kuk Do, but of course there is nothing in the state even. I'm just kind of out of luck when it comes to somthing very similar to Tang Soo Do. I'm going to take a look at a Tae Kwon Do school in my area to start off.

[Pale Rider]

That would be a good idea. Just remember that as it was mentioned Shotokan is similiar as well, and I do know alot of martial artists that has transferred over from both TKD and Shotokan to TSD.

[fadingrise]

Yea I looked for Shotokan schools, but came up with nothing at all. I'll give it one more try just incase I missed somthing, but I don't think that there is any Shotokan school anywhere close to me.

[Pale Rider]

Well, that is fine. TKD is similiar in alot of ways to TSD. The forms may be different depending on what Kwan you are in, but in all other aspects they are similiar enough where it will after awhile make it easier for you if you ever want to go to TSD. I would strongly suggest that however if you start a style to stay with it until you at least reach Chodan (1st Deg) then switch..

[fadingrise]

This doesn't really have anything to do with Tang Soo Do, but I was wondering what type of style does a place like National Karate have? Is it just a general self-defense style? If I do TKD I don't know if I would have enough time for 1st degree.

[Pale Rider]

I really don't know the style that could be taught there. People are impressed with school titles - i.e. Fighting Dragons, National Karate etc... and it could be any style of "karate". I would suggest asking what kind of forms are being taught and the language used. This will give you a good indication of what style it is (unless of course you just directly ask them, but if they don't give a style name) then the forms and the language used will sorta tell you. I don't know about other styles and only a Second Dan in TSD, so my knowledge is only limited to that, but I am sure that others will be able to assist if I can't.

Keep us informed, and I know that I will try to assist as much as possible.
TS!

[jakmak52]

I believe ITF TKD may be similiar in some there Poomse/forms...been a long time..I might need correction on this one :D

[fadingrise]

Okay basically I've got it down to two schools lol; a Tae Kwon Do school and Shotokan school. Is there one style that maybe better for certain things than the other?

[Pale Rider]

Each style has their advantages and disadvantages. Some are geared for speed, while others are more toward "power"; some are geared towards linear techniques and others circular. Anyone should tell you that to take a class, take down notes for example:
1.) How much is classes
2.) What rank is the instructor and his lineage?
3.) What organization is he/she affliated with?
4.) How many days a week is the dojang/dojo open?
5.) What's the criteria for rank advancement? *

I think those are good questions to start off with. If the organization is a well known, and accepted organization that would make it easier on you if you moved somewhere else etc... and your rank would be universally accepted. If the dojo/dojang is only open one day a week and charges outrageous prices etc... do some comparitive shopping...

If the criteria for rank advancement is too low - then belts would be achieved without gaining anything. Sometimes schools push belts simply for the money and produce black belts within a year or two.

I hope that this helps out some.

[jakmak52]

Each style has their advantages and disadvantages. Some are geared for speed, while others are more toward "power"; some are geared towards linear techniques and others circular. Anyone should tell you that to take a class, take down notes for example:
1.) How much is classes
2.) What rank is the instructor and his lineage?
3.) What organization is he/she affliated with?
4.) How many days a week is the dojang/dojo open?
5.) What's the criteria for rank advancement? *

I think those are good questions to start off with. If the organization is a well known, and accepted organization that would make it easier on you if you moved somewhere else etc... and your rank would be universally accepted. If the dojo/dojang is only open one day a week and charges outrageous prices etc... do some comparitive shopping...

If the criteria for rank advancement is too low - then belts would be achieved without gaining anything. Sometimes schools push belts simply for the money and produce black belts within a year or two.

I hope that this helps out some.

Helps me alot, thanks Bill. :bow:

[Pale Rider]

Was I wrong sir?

[jakmak52]

Was I wrong sir?

Not at all, right on target. :D

[fadingrise]

Alright thank you for the advice, I will take a look at all those things when I'm choosing between these couple schools here. Is there a good way to see if a dojo is actually accepted amoung other Dojos? If I just ask the dojo itself I'm assuming they would of course promote themselves as an accpted school.

[Pale Rider]

If you ask them what Kwan they are affliated with, that should be able to answer your question. Then you can do some research on the Kwan online.

[Grei]

I'm surprised nobody here has mentioned Soo Bahk Do (http://www.soobahkdo.com/fed-web/main-page.htm)... when I was first starting it everybody was telling me that Soo Bahk Do and Tang Soo Do were essentially identical, albeit with different names. (Tang Soo Do on wikipedia claims to be about 60% Soo Bahk Do... but as I've not tried Tang Soo Do, they seem at least EXTREEMELY similar from my readings...)

[rick_tsdmdk]

Soo Bahk Do is far different from Tang Soo Do.............SBD is essentially a modern art, created over the last 20 - 30 years, using vastly different forms and techniques than TSD. TSD is similar in most respects to Shotokan, including the forms used. SBD uses the newer Chil Sung and Yuk Ro forms and tries to have a much more Chinese/Tai Chi flavor. The two styles are no more similar than, say, Tae Kwon Do and Ju-Jutsu.

[ChristianTSD]

Soo Bahk Do is far different from Tang Soo Do.............SBD is essentially a modern art, created over the last 20 - 30 years, using vastly different forms and techniques than TSD. TSD is similar in most respects to Shotokan, including the forms used. SBD uses the newer Chil Sung and Yuk Ro forms and tries to have a much more Chinese/Tai Chi flavor. The two styles are no more similar than, say, Tae Kwon Do and Ju-Jutsu.

Well, now that depends on how much of the Chil Sung and Yuk Ro you (or those above you) got before the split and the name change, or if you went another route entirely. Some TSD artists take the Chil Sungs, Yuk Ros and even the Hwa Sun hyung, because that fits their bodies better. Some TSD stylists use neither those nor the MDK patterns, but use the Dolpoons and ChungSongs (etc.). I find more difference between TSD and Shotokan than I do with TSD and SBD by far.

[Tang-Soo-Architect]

Soo Bahk Do is far different from Tang Soo Do.............SBD is essentially a modern art, created over the last 20 - 30 years, using vastly different forms and techniques than TSD. TSD is similar in most respects to Shotokan, including the forms used. SBD uses the newer Chil Sung and Yuk Ro forms and tries to have a much more Chinese/Tai Chi flavor. The two styles are no more similar than, say, Tae Kwon Do and Ju-Jutsu.

I do TSD (I'm a member of the UK TSD Fed.) and we do Chil Sung and Yuk Ro.
The way I understand it is that SBD and TSD are basically the same art and have the same background, the difference as has been touched upon is the emphasis within the Hyungs.
SBD does more Chinese/Tai Chi influenced forms, while TSD does Pyung Ahn forms which orginated out of Okinawan katas. SBD looks a lot to the interpreted teachings of the Muye-dobo-tong-ji (or whichever spelling you prefer) as researched by GM Hwang Kee. The GM started his TSD Moo Duk Kwan before he had interpteted the book, so TSD didn't have that input and started life with more japanese/okinawan influence. It was probably useful on commercial grounds too.
When the GM introduced the teachings from the Muye-dobo-tong-ji he changed the name of the organisation to include Soo Bahk Do.
That's a rough and ready/truncated version of the history.
There is now a push towards re-unification (so to speak) of the various TSD Kwans and SBD Kwans to solidify the teachings of our art, and to bolster a world wide mutual support and brotherhood of the Moo Duk Kwan.....Groovy!