View Full Version : Knife Fighting Lies
Interesting article. A recruit brought it today and I found it to be very intersting. I haven't read the rest of the author's aritcles yet, but he seems to have alot of information.
Read here;
Knife Fighting Lies (http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/knifelies.html)
G Hendrix
06-22-2005, 17:05
I remember reading about someone posting at another forum that at a seminar, Mac "The Animal" just couldn't demonstrate his knife technique like he talked it. If you go to Warrior Talk forum and ask, I think someone there can offer a first hand observation.
I like this guy's website and his articles. Some are quite interesting. I don't have the experience to judge them all, that's for sure, but he makes me think and makes good sense (in a somewhat pompous way).
The closest I've come to these lies about knife fighting was not the way he described it - the guy did brandish his weapon, like a complete and utter raging idiot moron, I yelled back at him and closed to engage him, and he took off. Maybe he thought (incorrectly, no doubt) that I knew something he didn't know?
This was at a pub in Europe, bouncing, 10 years ago.
I have seen a partner of mine (same pub, same little hallway) threatened with a broken bottle. He grabbed the guy's wrist over the top in a direction that would make me think he would have his wrist sliced (though we was wearing a thick leather jacket) and pointed his other finger at him in the "Italian Finger" way, and started explaining something to him that I did not hear over the music.
Then, seeing the guy's eyes soften, he took the broken bottle with his other hand (the one pointing), just removed it as if he were taking a cup from his hand, and guided the guy out the door. That was that.
For the life of me, I have no idea why Pauli or I are still alive.
I offer this as two examples of way that things could and have transpired. Pretty anti-climatic, isn't it?
I remember reading about someone posting at another forum that at a seminar, Mac "The Animal" just couldn't demonstrate his knife technique like he talked it. If you go to Warrior Talk forum and ask, I think someone there can offer a first hand observation.
While I don't care much for the VTG's of Warriortalk and Selfdefense.com, this thread (http://http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?t=1281&highlight=Marc+MacYoung) seems to support his stuff.
I bought one of his knife fighting books, and I have read some of his other stuff that friends own, on his website, and seen a little vid from him.
My opinion is this guy is one of the biggest posers out there.
He may be Kit, but he does seem to bring up some points that are at least intersting in a theoretical sense...
Of course, I could be full of crap too - LOL
Jason
Everything is interesting in a theoretical sense. It's when theory is applied to reality that things get messy.
I can't disagree with everything he writes. It's kind of hard not to be right on some points in this day and age - all you have to do is read stuff from any number of other people writing on the topic, regurgitate it, and you'll hit the mark at least part of the time.
It seems a cottage industry in the combatives community today.
G Hendrix
06-22-2005, 20:11
He has some good points on situation awareness and rape avoidance on his site. Other than that, it is pretty much a waste of time. If I remembered correctly, according to someone who was at a seminar the guy co-hosted, he simply couldn't make the technique he was teaching work.
G Hendrix
06-22-2005, 22:22
It may be overly harsh for me to say that everything else Young has to say is a waste of time. The part of his site that Tony pointed out, isn't bad.
Just don't bother to learn his techniques. lol I would go with Kit's observation anytime.
I like how he goes into what happens after a fight. Most people don't think about the legal ramifications of using a knife and I like how he touched on that. A certain knife art shows the instructors carrying three or four fixed blade knives. Well in most states thats illegal but they don't tell you that.
When you use deadly force on someone, or just put your hands on someone(battery), whether its justified or not, you are DEFINATELY going to court. A lot of people don't prepare for that stage, or even look up their states laws.
Also I liked how he touched on the pyschological effects killing someone has on you. Everyone(well not everyone) likes to act like badasses, but after you kill someone it effects you. And not in a good way(hopefully).
It's kind of hard not to be right on some points in this day and age - all you have to do is read stuff from any number of other people writing on the topic, regurgitate it, and you'll hit the mark at least part of the time.
When I read his knife books and saw his vids, there was nobody doing 'combatives' and fancy martial artsy defences against the knife were the order of the day. There was him and Peyton Quinn...others copied them.
Oh, and I've been known to mess up a guy's seminar instruction, myself, not too hard to do when everyone knows what is supposed to come next.
Nothing wrong IMO pointing out someones deficiancies, it's how it's done that can cause some discord.
Also, I do want to know someones background, it helps to decipher their contributions as far as how they come about their conclusions.
Like Kit pointed out, someone is going to be correct some of the time. So lets take what applies and throw out what doesn't. And for those that don't know what that is, that's what this forum is for.
I for one don't have a problem being critiqued on anything I may put forth, whether it's a technique, article or someones elses technique and/or articles.
I for one think he brought out some interesting point.
DragonMind
06-23-2005, 10:24
One of the reasons I like Bram Frank's approach is that he relies totally on gross motor movements and instinctive reactions to disable the attacking weapon first. Anyone can play "what if" and come up with a Kobiyashi Maru scenario, but Bram focuses on what can you really use under pressure.
Has anyone seen the Redzone material by Jerry Wetzel or Karl Tanswell's STAB program?
It was an interesting read. I took the posted article as a discussion more of mind set than of technique. When I have time, I will read through more of his site. But, I felt it was a good article on the mind set of facing a weapon. I think that he is right on the money with his idea that the most perfect technique in the world is useless without the right mind set.
The problem I saw with Bram/s apoach is the discrpancy between the knife which is a deadly weapon and its use as a deterent. You are only allowed to pull a deadly weapon in face of deathly danger, anything else and you are escalating the encounter in a deadly force situation. In some jurisdictions, this means that sd cannot even be raised...
The wounds on the person you cut with his style will look like the defensive wounds of a victim fighting for his life. He also advocates following in for multiple cuts...get that on tape and see how a jury deals with it. Once you follow and do not disengage, it is not self defence anymore, in many jurisdictions.
Sochin got it right. The cutting use of a knife is deadly force, period. The idea that you can cut someone a "little bit" as a deterrent is convenient. Just like you don't shoot someone "a little bit" or "to scare them," you don't use a blade on them. If you are justified in using lethal force and do so, and (as happens often) it DOESN'T kill them and they stop or give up - great. It should not become some kind of new approach as in "biomechanical cutting."
Why? Because it also is a very questionable tactic. It is deadly force, but it often takes a lot to actually be deadly.
Fletch brought up Red Zone. A very good instructional in my view (better than STAB), but directed to knife defense, not usage. It has a lot to offer for knife use in terms of dispelling a lot of myths. Bio-mechanical cutting being one of them. Red Zone has an interview with an ER doctor (Jerry's wife, I think) who says what every cop already knows - people can often take a tremendous amount of physical trauma and continue functioning if they so choose, and have the mental wherewithal (and often chemical assistance) to do so.
She notes commonly seeing people with extensive nerve and muscle injury related to the hand and still able to open and close their fingers and have functional grip strength. Apparently this theory doesn't survive contact with reality.
I have spoken with two, maybe three first responders who have actually been to calls where a knife had pierced a person's chest cavity and even the heart and the person continued functioning. In one case where the heart was pierced the person was sitting down calmly, smoking a cigarette, waiting for rescue to arrive.
There are numerous of accounts of people being shot through the head with arrows, pipes, hit with axes, cut to ribbons by knives, and all shot up with various firearms rounds that not only continued functioning but continued fighting - some going on to kill their attackers (police, civilians, and bad guys).
Anyone remember the story of the kid that got both arms RIPPED off by some kind of farm machinery? He walked off the field, went inside, got a pencil and dialed 911 by holding it in his mouth, then had the presence of mind to stand in the bathtub to await rescue because he did not want to get blood all over the floor.
Give that mindset to a bad guy who wants to hurt you or jack your stuff and what do you think he's going to do to you with that knife after you "biomechanically" cut him? And stuff like meth and crack gives people that kind of mindset.
It is also very common in the rush and excitement of a confrontation for the person being cut to not even realize he has been so, even with serious cuts. They will often report that they see blood and wonder where it is coming from, until they realize it is coming from them. In one recent incident in our city a fight between two female gang members developed where one was clearly getting the better of the other. The second female pulled a knife and cut the first, who did not realize she was being cut until told by some onlookers. She then became so angry that the other girl would cut her that she proceeded to further beat her down.
Biomechanical cutting is a convenient theory. Might it work? Sure. I wouldn't bet my life or safety on it. What you see most often speaks very much against it being a viable (forget even legal) tactic in most situations.
Sorry for the thread drift.
We should point out that MacYoung discusses very little biomechanical cutting in the article Tony posted. He seems to accept it as a viable theory, but the article is not focussed on it.
I was getting lost in the thread drift too. While I do have some opinions on biomechanical cutting, the article seemed to be more about your mind set and approach to the problem. In fact, if I recall correctly, biomechanical cutting was one of the myths/lies he was addressing. But, I think that regardless of your veiw of biomechanical cutting, his points about how to mentally approach this problem, were good. Part of my problem with knife and gun disarms, is that I have never learned from anyone who ever had to use one in a life or death situation. I am lucky though, because a few of the leaders in our system have faced such situations, and I am hoping that they have been able to pass along the important points. One thing they spend a lot of time on, is the mental approach.
Excellent! This the type of feedback I'm looking for.
DragonMind
06-24-2005, 07:20
The problem I saw with Bram/s apoach is the discrpancy between the knife which is a deadly weapon and its use as a deterent. You are only allowed to pull a deadly weapon in face of deathly danger, anything else and you are escalating the encounter in a deadly force situation. In some jurisdictions, this means that sd cannot even be raised...
The wounds on the person you cut with his style will look like the defensive wounds of a victim fighting for his life. He also advocates following in for multiple cuts...get that on tape and see how a jury deals with it. Once you follow and do not disengage, it is not self defence anymore, in many jurisdictions.
You and Kit bring up good points, but I think there is more there to discuss before throwing out the baby with the bathwater. How about we take it to a new thread so as to limit thread drift here?
Ok Dragon get the topic out. I'm waiting. :)
G Hendrix
06-25-2005, 03:04
When I read his knife books and saw his vids, there was nobody doing 'combatives' and fancy martial artsy defences against the knife were the order of the day. There was him and Peyton Quinn...others copied them......
Charles Nelson was teaching combatives based self defence long before Young showed up. Granted, good ol Charles kept a low profile and was hardly known to anyone outside of a small circle.
If you ask around in the combatives community, I doubt Young would count as someone that is worth copying.
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