Opinions on UFC? [Archive] - BudoSeek! Martial Arts Community Forums

Shu-Ho

06-25-2005, 03:48

Ok, thought this would make an interesting discussion. Whats everyone's opinion on the UFC? Personally, I hate it.
For one I'm not competitive in the slightest. And another thing, it doesn't matter how many 'masters' from how many styles you have, it all ends up looking like a mess of arms and legs flailing at each other until they clinch and go to ground. All style goes out the window and it just becomes a battle of stamina.
It also pains me when people want to join martial arts clubs BECAUSE they want to pretend they're in UFC, and they have no interest in the spirit and tradition of whatever they're practising.
I was recently teaching a couple of red belts -one of them a huge UFC fan- a dropping full shoulder, and one of their finishes was not a simple lock or a strike, but he then layed on top of me and went for a bar choke of his own, burying his head in my shoulder so all he could see was the floor, no awareness what so ever.
Frustrating thing was that I tried to explain that when he grades, the Sensei grading him will not want to see such finishes, but they will want to see him aware of his surroundings. "Yes Sensei." He replied, but still continues to do such finishes. I just found that really frustrating as he's not taking in what we have to teach, and has decided that that would be the best thing to do in a REAL life situation. Don't get me wrong, it would work damn well if you're in 1 on 1, but as with most fights these days, it's not 1 on 1, his mates will come along and kick you when you're down so you need that awareness to see them coming and have the chance to either defend yourself or run.

(Edit starts here)
Oh! one more thing I forgot to add.
I saw a video on the net where some guy had made his own 'style' combining Jujitsu and Muai Thai, as he called it 'the ultimate self defense' (I'm not going to name this person, for all I know he's on this board! lol)
Anyway, this was a demonstration video of his style. He showed a few decent defensive Muai Thai moves, close-in knees and elbows etc, but when it came to the Jujitsu side of things, him and his uke would just grapple and go to ground, where again he would cast his FULL attention on his uke, not paying any to his surroundings. He then showed off his repertoire of tight choke holds and locks that require him to be prostrate to execute. No technique, no throws, no awareness. NOT the ultimate form of self defence at all, but a place for UFC wannabe's to go and inflate their egos.

Bit of a long winded philosophy there. Hope it makes sense! lol. Opinions?

Gene Williams

06-25-2005, 06:14

The value of it to me was that the Gracies made everyone in karate realize that they should pay some attention to ground skills. I think grappling is overrated, but you do need to know what to do on the ground. Plus, I think it was a great demonstration of the patience it takes to be a good grappler. You have to be determined and patient enough to wait for the right moment. I also like Royce Gracie's strong spirit. A warrior spirit like that is important in any art.

Cliff Hargrave

06-25-2005, 09:22

KIT

06-25-2005, 09:42

UFC has evolved WAY beyond a bunch of flailing, hugging, and dropping to the ground. While a sport, it has a great deal to teach about realistic dynamics in self defense. I find it interesting that many non-grapplers seem very intimidated by it, when in fact UFC, Pride and MMA in general has shown that being a good striker with good grappling abilities is far more effective than being a good grappler who can't hit.

BTW, Royce's style - being patient, waiting for the right moment, is not at all representative of all BJJ. It is in my opinion the least practical approach to grappling when considering self defense. There are many other grapplers who take initiative, constantly move, and work to get out from the bottom and get on top. BJJ often gets painted with the "pull gaurd - fight from the bottom - wait 'til the guy makes a mistake" label and that is not the sum total of BJJ.

Gene Williams

06-25-2005, 10:30

I love it, as my cable pay-per-view bills will show.

Some people like it as a spectator sport, some like to train that way. I like both. MMA is way more than flailing battles of stamina. It involves serious technical aspects of all ranges of fighting. The raging muscle heads dont make it to the higher levels without some type of technical ability.

BTW, the biggest inflated egos I have ever seen in martial arts were from the super deadly masters that never got on a mat. All the MMA and BJJ people I have trained with are really cool and down to earth.

True. I think anyone who has actually fought other people, especially other trained people, learns to respect both other people and their arts. There are also many contingencies in a fight...there is always someone better than you, and they may live right down the street.

Dennis Monk

06-25-2005, 10:34

Sorry Shu-ho, but if you are free to have personal opinons about something , we are free disagree and tell you why. By the way, by referring to the mixed martial arts as "UFC" you must know little or nothing of the broad spectrum of the mixed martial arts world. The UFC may be the biggest and most well known, it is not however the only company promoting MMA events. So does Pride, King of The Cage, Reality Combat, etc... There are smaller venued MMA promotion companies all over the US and the world for that matter. The people who train in MMA and compete in these events do so all day, everyday. It is their life. They are not training to win a bar fight, or fight off three muggers in an alley. They are training to enter and compete with one other person with similar training and the goal is to win by knock out, by points or submission. It is a sport.

TonyU

06-25-2005, 12:55

Shu-Ho,
As a traditionalist myself I used to hate it, but only in the beggining. I'm in the same boat as Cliff, I got yelled at by my wife when the cable bill came in for the Couture/Liddell fight.
IMO it has evolve into a very good sport.
The UFC was a marketing ploy, but so what? The Gracies didn't do anything different than the old masters did in an attempt to promote their system, they just used the modern medium. I actually think it was genius on their part.
Like Gene stated they brought an understanding of ground work to martial art mainstream.
I added to BJJ for that reason. Am I gonna compete, no. I train for different reasons.
I enjoy it like I enjoy a good boxing match, actually more. If you look at the fighter with a critcal eye, you realize that they a very good tacticians.
I wish I was in the shape they're in though.

Bugeisha

06-25-2005, 19:44

I've gone from hating MMA to loving it, for the reasons everyone has already said.

J4d3

06-26-2005, 03:34

i think to often people think that ufc and the like is martial arts applied to real life when its really martial arts applied to sport.as random as the matches may seem its still a very controlled environment and the fact that there are any rules and regulations at all should be enough to know its not the same as real life.that being said i love watching it.

Shu-Ho

06-26-2005, 05:08

Don't get me wrong, I have the utmost respect for those who chose to take part in UFC, must take a lot of guts, which I sure as hell don't have.
But my point is that there seems to be so many people out there who think they're UFC material after achieving their first Kyu grade! My club has it's share of them, and all the lessons in humility does nothing to disuade them.
My point in making this thread was not to insult any of the competitors what so ever. I probably worded it badly, my fault! But I just find it frustrating to see these UFC nuts nearly break someone's windpipe on their second lesson!
And people who go off and make their own style to attract these crowds. That guy in the demonstration video was a black belt (or equivilant) in Muai Thai, and a BROWN belt in Jujitsu! A brown belt going off to make his own style!!!

Things like that, to me, are like a red rag to a bull.

rupertmja

06-26-2005, 06:57

Cliff Hargrave

06-26-2005, 08:12

mateo

07-05-2005, 11:59

Why place a query about people's opinions about the UFC on a Japanese Arts thread?

Is it because you want to hear the opinions of those who do traditional Japanese jujutsu? (A real question.)

It should at least be about one of the Japanese events like PRIDE, Shooto or Pancrase. :)

I love traditional Japanese jujutsu and I really like the UFC and PRIDE FC.

When I train police officers I place importance on awareness of what is going on around the person performing a pin and I encourage them to pin from a kneeling position, whenever possible, and avoid prone positions. So I would agree that spatial awareness and awareness of what's going on in the room is of great importance when dealing with the possibility of multiple opponents, indeed sometimes more important than winning against the particular opponent you are engaged with!

To ask the same of those participating in a two man sport would be foolish and would be asking them to ignore the reality of their fighting circumstance. Also sometimes an technique can be effective in quite a short span of time and momentarily losing view of the room in order to win may be a necessary evil. (Perhaps you are choking a knife wielding opponent who will certainly stab you in you are not able to keep control as opposed to dealing with potential threats from elsewhere in the room.

As for the proper attitude of the traditional martial artist on the path; budo training begins and ends with 'rei' (a show of respect). The martial arts practitioners of MMA (as all other people) should also be treated in this way. People like Rickson Gracie, Frank Shamrock or Randy Coulture are working at the highest technical levels possible within the arts the arts they have chosen to practise. You may wish to refer to them as 'experts' rather than 'masters' but as a traditional martial artists I respect both the level of play which they are able to perform at and the respect and integrity which they show in the sport and the way they handle themselves outside the ring.

One might feel differently about Tank Abbot and Gilbert Yvel, at times... :wink2:

David Craik

07-05-2005, 12:03

I must admit I was about to move this thread. Is it posted here because you want Japanese stylists' opinion on UFC?

Tony Dismukes

07-06-2005, 15:40

But my point is that there seems to be so many people out there who think they're UFC material after achieving their first Kyu grade!...

...But I just find it frustrating to see these UFC nuts nearly break someone's windpipe on their second lesson!

In my experience, there are actually fewer of these bozos at a real BJJ/MMA gym. That's possibly because they'll typically grapple at every workout and get the reality check of being effortlessly dominated by more experienced practitioners. I've been practicing the martial arts for a long time, and there are still not many things I find as humbling as training with a top-level professional fighter, whether they're competing in Muay Thai, BJJ, or MMA. (Actually, I find myself humbled even by the low-to-mid-level pros. The top-level folks can go at 10% intensity and still dominate me.)

pgsmith

07-06-2005, 17:26

But my point is that there seems to be so many people out there who think they're UFC material after achieving their first Kyu grade! My club has it's share of them, and all the lessons in humility does nothing to disuade them.
My point in making this thread was not to insult any of the competitors what so ever. I probably worded it badly, my fault! But I just find it frustrating to see these UFC nuts nearly break someone's windpipe on their second lesson!
Mr. Daniels,
I'm sorry, but this sounds more like a big problem with your dojo rather than with the UFC. It sounds to me as if there is a serious lack of control by your instructor, or the dojo's aims and goals are different than yours. Either way, it may be time to find a new instructor.

Gae-Bek

07-07-2005, 08:08

Mr. Daniels,

I'm also of the opinion that this sounds like an isolated problem. Most traditional dojos (that I know of) have strict rules about the techniques to be used in-class. Perhaps restating this policy to the students is a good idea, and state to the individual that your Sensei will have a hard time promoting someone to Shodan who ignores school rules.

On the other hand, at the Black Belt Candidate level, I expect to see them doing a little "thinking outside the box". Personally, I don't see anything wrong with it. When it comes to self-defense, I'm of the opinion that if my way works for you, then "great"; but the only point of reference that I have, is I know that my way works for me. It may not necessarilly work for everybody. If a student has a better way or finish that works for them, more power to them.

Frustrating thing was that I tried to explain that when he grades, the Sensei grading him will not want to see such finishes

Honestly, I have a problem with this statement. If your student can use a "different" technique to escape and/or finish from a certain position, and he can apply it consistently under duress with aggressive and larger opponents, then I can't see why your Sensei would downgrade him for it. Granted, if he can only make it work on people that he can out-muscle, then I'd tell him to forget it.

Is Shodan supposed to be a mark of regurgitated basics? Or should it be a mark of martial skill? I'd hope that your Sensei wouldn't downgrade someone for using a successful technique, only because it wasn't learned from him.

James O'Neill

07-07-2005, 08:43

Regarding the UFC, I am definately a fan and have seen every one of them from the first to the most recent, including one in Atlantic City that my business partner & I attended in person. I'm also a fan of Pride & KOTC as my cable bills can attest - MMA is the only sport I follow to any real degree.

As to Mr. Daniels dilemma, I would say that provided he can execute the style's techniques he's supposed to have learned (one of which sounds like maintaining situational awareness) in addition to the submissions he ought to be good to go. However, if he's doing the "different" techniques exclusively, I would not advance him if I were his teacher.

I can relate to this personally. I have a submissions background & I like to 'wrassle'. Nevertheless, while it's a great addition to my other Hapkido tools, it has to be just that. An addition to, not an "instead of".

I am of the opinion that one skillset compliments the other and I like HKD's more street oriented approach as I am a pragmatist with regard to Martial Arts. That means not going for a submission when it would be more appropriate to attack the eyes, groin or throat, such as in a multiple opponent SD situation versus a "fight". ...Or going for the sweep from 'guard' so as to quickly get to your feet, instead of looking for the armbar...

And another thing... Adding a skill set to your repertoire does not a new martial art make IMO.

Cheers,

James

Fletch1

07-07-2005, 11:34

I think control in the dojo is the issue. Explain the reason why you are practicing a particular way. Then show a need to execute the technique the way you are training it. If you can't realistically do that, no amount of "...but Sensei says.." is going to convince someone.

As someone else already stated, commiting to one attacker will likely be a neccesary evil. You do it because you have to.

Erik

07-07-2005, 12:07

I hate to say it, Chris, but that flailing around is what a real fight looks like when the two are roughly evenly matched and neither is surprised to find himself in a fight.

And there is a lot more technique going on that you seem to realize. The (albeit very cool) pretty moves you see and practice in the dojo are not how things look when the other guy is resisting and counterattacking.

Try it out - there are a lot of submissions and set-ups that don't look like much. They're actually boring as all heck to watch (even for those of us who like to grapple) but you really feel them. They are very real and very technical.

And yes, giving up one's mobility by going to the ground is a non-trivial decision. If the guy you're grappling with has friends who can kick you while you're choking him out or pulling his joints out, then you're in trouble.

But it works in the real world - I've used it, my partners have used it, it gets used successfully probably every day (not that other arts are not used successfully, too).

UFC is a great place to see these things in action. We can learn a lot from these duels/matches.

Nin

07-07-2005, 16:15

Erik is fully right, a real fight looks like what you see on UFC. Just like your taught in the army in close combat: the goal isn't to bounce around and making artistic moves but to finish up the guy anyway you can (incuding using voice, objects, ground etc...) as quick as possible.

But some (actually most of them can be applied but to use their full potential it'd require a very high level of practise) of the moves you learn in a dojo are useful combined to some things you can learn.

Gene Williams

07-07-2005, 16:38

I agree with Erik. In those long UFC fights when Gracie or someone else was locked up on the ground with an opponent and it didn't look like much was going on, tons of strategy and mental maneuvering is taking place. The good fighters don't make moves unless there is a reason for it. Even in karate, two skilled people may just stand in kamae for a while, doing nothing because they know that the first person to move gets hit. There was a famous match between two Japanese karateka (I can't remember their names, but I think Nishiyama was one of them) at a tournament in Japan. They stood still for so long, each mentally maneuvering, until the judges ended the match in a tie with no technique being executed!

MarcoPolo

07-07-2005, 17:06

I think the "flailing around" comment was kind of humorous. It's a common description when people don't understand the subtle aspects of something. No offense, but it's like hearing my wife describe football... or my own understanding of Rugby (huh?)

As someone who has had the HONOR of "rolling" with several of these athletes (Randy Couture, Frank Mir, Jeff Monson, Royce Gracie, Carlson Gracie, and Carlson Gracie Jr) I can tell you that the skill of any of these guys is off the charts. Also, for those who think this is about being a "bad dude", i've been completely shut down by a teenage girl who weighs 20 lbs less than I do (although it was Mundial Champion Kyra Gracie.)
The guys who are acting up in your Dojo are posers, plain and simple. (And would probably have their butts handed to them by even a "C" level fighter.) I can tell you that NONE of the athletes I mentioned above had any attitude whatsoever.

What this HAS done for MA is initially make the strikers look at grappling, and later made the grapplers learn to strike and work takedowns. In the end we found that the "deadly flying eagle beak" which makes you a "deadly weapon in 6 weeks" doesn't work. In the end, it's an athletic endeavor.

Happy Training!

Cliff Hargrave

07-07-2005, 18:06

i've been completely shut down by a teenage girl who weighs 20 lbs less than I do (although it was Mundial Champion Kyra Gracie.)

bet you hated that :)

http://www.boutreview.com/data/img/1052663328.jpg

John Lucas

07-07-2005, 21:22

Hey, I wouldnt mind grappling with her one bit, even though she would completely ruin me. There is no shame in losing to a girl, especially if she is as skilled as her.

gwmma

07-09-2005, 21:24

i love the UFC, i cant wait til the next one in august

i think its awesome because there are many different styles of fighters, some like chuck liddell are all standing with a little ground and some like randy couture who are all ground and little standing and some like georges st.pierre who kick *** at everything so its cool to see what type of fighter succeds in the UFC

right now im training at our local MMA club and its awesome its no-gi grappling fast paced unlike gi grappling because you dont have the gi and my instructor bill mahood learns new stuff every day so your constantly learning

J_24

07-12-2005, 16:06

I had a friend who trained in something he called "no rules fighting" hes probably the most immature martial artist i have ever met. always starting arguements about how "his style is the best and how its based on UFC which is as real as it can get" I took karate at this time and I knew a couple of low beginner stances, he would always laugh and say how easily he could dominate me in that stance, "id just sweep the leg hah hah". he got in a fight, knocked out 1 punch.
As for UFC i like it, but not much, i prefer a traditional take on martial arts.
As for fighting, I would just like to share that where I am from there is usually more than one person, and usually a weapon or two, guns are illegal in australia which is good (that doesnt stop someone from illegaly aquiring one should they choose to), so usually a knife, bottle ,dirty syringe or a pole of some sort. People survey for weapons all the time in real fights - pretty much anything you can find (something u dont see in the UFC). So basically I believe that all this one on one training is good, if that all you ever plan to do. When it comes to the streets , I train to not fight in the first place, to promote peace.
I generally dont compete, but if my sensei ever tells me to I probably will.

thejimbo

07-21-2005, 16:04

I only have two minor problems with UFC type stuff. first it is, mostly, real fighting so it ain't pretty. I remember how exited I was to see some shamrock/gracie fights but it ended up being 33 minutes of the gracie gaurd. I looked like no one would take the initiative for fear of losing, and they were probably right. I'm not saying they weren't great fighters but that doesn't mean it wasn't a little boring too. though there's nothing like a good UFC fight either. My second issue is just that conditioning seems to take precedent over skill, at least with striking. Also It seems pretty rare for them to move backwards, that applys to most any sport fighting I've seen, for fear of looking like they are retreating. They seem to always want to move forward. And another thing I would like to see more of in any pro fighting is feining and deception. but mostly I would like to see more standing stiking, nothing against grappling, but thats just my thing. I feel most UFC matches are a little boring, especially when there's a miss match, but a good UFC fight kicks a*s.

Cyriades

11-02-2005, 23:55

Agreed, and I also think there really aren't enough standing locks / submissions done in UFC either...But who am I to judge? :P

ChampNtraining

11-03-2005, 01:17

I feel the same way many of you do, that the UFC is moslty a lot of boxing style punching then it goes straight to the floor nearly every time, which does make it seem a little boring. I'm left wondering where all the traditional style martial artists have gone, for someone to step in and definitively show that kickboxing plus grappling isn't the only formula for winning. To show the general public on a large scale that it doesn't have always be two people punching each other then throwing each other on the floor. Somwhere in that I see a big opportunity to open up many peoples' eyes to martial arts and thru that a message can be delivered or a general reducation on what martial arts stands for can occur. If we wan't to believe it or not, a great deal of the populace forms their opinion of martial arts thru watching these big time sporting events, and if we have a great deal of martial artitsts themselves seeing it as two people flailing around uncontrollably, then it can't look much better from the spectator's point of view or those that happen upon seeing it flipping thru TV channels.

I'm possibly a hopeless dreamer but I'd like to see a great deal more technical martial artists of a wide array of styles step up to the challenge of the UFC and other MMA sporting events such as Pride and K-1. I understand that some styles would be greatly restricted by some of the MMA rules but there are still a wide array of styles that would have use of nearly all of their techinques. I'd love to see a lot more variety at the top of these MMA events helping to educate people on a large scale on what martial arts is and stands for; Champions that will do and say more than "I got hit a little but I beat him up real bad and won." as their only message to the public. We as martial artistss may know what is going thru the winner's head, but the general public only hears that one sentence and is left to think for the most part that martial arts is about beating the other guy up.

I know I'm overstating things a bit, but there is definitely a lack of communication going on about the martial arts. Just look at the hundreds or maybe even thousands of programs around the world now offering quick ways to kick butt using martial arts as a backdrop. And the constant sprouting of McDojos on every corner sucking people in to learn watered down and sideshow martial arts skills and principles. And there's the XMA which is creeping up out of the shadows pretty fast and is believed by the general public to be martial arts as well. Everywhere I look I just see martial arts being commercialized and bastardized. Big flashy posters showing people doing moves that don't even aply to the style they're offering to teach, and glitzy commercials with people fighting like they do in the movies claiming this is how you learn self defense.

Like I said, maybe I'm a hopeless dreamer and martial arts has to go thru this glamour phase until the general public and most of the false practioners that fell victim to it get burnt out on it, then we can see a rebirth of traditionalism (as mentioned in various other threads). I was initially going into the UFC (and other events) to win and get into the public eye to help spread a good message and get rid of a lot of the glamour and commercialization going around, but it seems like it's all a roller coaster ride that just has to run itself out of gas before it shows any sign of stopping.

Call me crazy if you want, but it sure won't stop me from trying. :)

Tony Dismukes

11-03-2005, 09:42

I'm possibly a hopeless dreamer but I'd like to see a great deal more technical martial artists of a wide array of styles step up to the challenge of the UFC and other MMA sporting events such as Pride and K-1. I understand that some styles would be greatly restricted by some of the MMA rules but there are still a wide array of styles that would have use of nearly all of their techinques.

The top competitors in MMA are already extremely technical, so I presume you're talking about getting a wider range of techniques displayed in competition. The problem is, that was already tried in the beginning when the UFC was introduced. Legitimate exerts in a wide range of styles were invited to compete. A lot of the styles just didn't work so effectively against the competition. Some of the techniques you'd lke to see may never be displayed just because they don't work against an equally tough, equally skilled opponent who is free to use different techniques.

That being said, new tecniques are being added to the effective MMA arsenal. In the beginning, strikers didn't do too well. Once they learned the grappling skills to stop takedowns and protect themselves when they did go the the ground, then good boxing/muay thai skills became an essential part of the game. A few strikers have even used some karate/tae kwon do moves effectively (I've seen George St. Pierre and David Loiseau land a very effective spin kick.) For a long time judo had no success in the octagon, but now practitioners such as Karo Parysian and Fedor Emelianenko have learned to adapt judo techniques effectively to the strking/no-gi environment. It's entirely possible that future competitors will find ways to add additional techniques from different styles and use them effectively. I expect they will always need to know the foundational skills of boxing/wrestling/muay thai/BJJ however.

What additional techniques do you think could realistically be applied in MMA competition, given the right practitioner?

Erik

11-03-2005, 11:30

The early UFC was great as it pitted one MA against the other and we got to see good comparisons. It was interesting.

Now, heavies trained in everything dominate and they all seem so boringly the same. It has kind of accidently become its very own style. Boooooring.
I don't think this is boring. I think it is great.

Lots of the MA BS has been stripped off and the remaining techniques, training methods, and skillsets are being refined and refined.

It may look boring because it is hard to understand. It's not MA for show, it is MA for effect. Hollywood and reality look different. It takes some time, exposure, and experience to understand what is really happening in MMA fights. There is a lot more feinting, technique, setup, bait and switch (or as my BJJ coach puts it, "put out some cheese for the mouse!" I don't get the expression, either), very difficult timing, and a tremendous amount of feel involved in these matches. Hard to appreciate until one learns a lot about it.

This is THE pure weaponless dueling MA skillset. It is reality (for said domain of fighting). I love it.

And no more "grandmaster such-and-such" with his "punch a bowl of beans for 4 hours/day and do your static air-fighting solo kata for 4 hours per day and you can defeat anyone - don't question me, either! This is ancient knowledge!"

MMA has shown that the emperor has no clothes afterall.

skurk

11-03-2005, 23:13

Erik and Tony every time you post something about MMA you take the words out of my mouth, so now I never have anything to say.

RICKSON BY ARM BAR!!!!

Sorry been hanging out on sherdog too much.

khujo78

11-03-2005, 23:55

Hollywood and reality look different.

LOL...beautiful!! Sooo many people look at ufc as if fighters should be dancing around and entertaining the crowd, but they are there to whoop ***! If they do it better on the floor, then so be it. I remember the first ufc I saw (don't remember the number), it had royce gracie against the black bragon, the instructor of the guy who played Bruce Leroy in 'The Last Dragon' (A black Bruce Lee, oh yeah!) if anyone knows that movie. Anyways, the guy had been studying some form of karate for 40 yrs and did phenomenal on his feet, but when it got to the ground, he didn't do too well (hence the reason Gracie took him to the ground). This didn't convince me that bjj was the way to go, but it did show me that there is something you can do if you end up there. However, even in my bjj class, my instructor says that the last place you want to be is on the ground, but you should know what to do if you end up there. So although alot of the ufc seems like alot of shuffling around on the ground alot of technique is being used and its exciting to see how different people adapt to that situation, and the standup (which I actually have seen alot of) is VERY exciting

ezzthetic

11-04-2005, 04:43

BTW, Royce's style - being patient, waiting for the right moment, is not at all representative of all BJJ. It is in my opinion the least practical approach to grappling when considering self defense. There are many other grapplers who take initiative, constantly move, and work to get out from the bottom and get on top. BJJ often gets painted with the "pull gaurd - fight from the bottom - wait 'til the guy makes a mistake" label and that is not the sum total of BJJ.

I think a lot of that passive, non-agressive style of Royce came about due to the fact that he was frequently fighting guys much heavier than himself. Old school UFC didn't have weight divisions. That's why you have do give props to guys like Oleg and Royce, who did so well against some big guys.

AndrewSimonsen

11-04-2005, 18:05

I prefer Pide to UFC as the fighters seem to be more skilled overall, not to say that the UFCdoesn't have good fighters tough. I Just don't see anyone in the UFC who I think could compete against Fedor or Mirko.

wab25

11-04-2005, 19:20

I enjoy watching the different MMA matches. First they are entertaining. Second, they can teach you a lot. But, a lot of the lessons there are not the popular ones you always hear.

The biggest lesson is that the guy who plays his own game wins. Lots of people originally thought that the lesson was, fights go to the ground all the time. The first UFCs ended on the ground with Royce, because Royce was playing his game. The other competitor was not able to dictate the rules of the fight or control the fight. If you watch any of the really good fighters, you will see that they are very good at controlling the situation, making the other person change what they want to do. Royce won, because he could force the ground game. The guy that beat Royce, and all the rest of the Gracies, did so by not going to the ground with him. He did not get into their guard much, and never was in the gaurd the way the Gracie's expected him to be. Sakaraba was able to force the Gracie's to play a new game, and he won. He was in turn knock silly a bunch of times by Silva. Silva refused to play Sakaraba's game. Instead he insisted on using Sakaraba's face as a punching bag. The lesson is, that you have to dictate the fight and you have to get the other guy out of his game plan.

The next lesson is the rock, paper, scissors relationships in the arts. Not only is this relationship between styles, but moves as well. Every style and every move has many counters. Each counter is also a move, and therefore is subject to the rule of having many counters.

There is also a great training possibility here. The biggest being to fight the match yourself. As they get into different situations, how long does it take you to realize what each needs to do? Do you know what they need to do? How fast can I recognise the technique being used, and how fast can I identify the counter? Pick one fighter to start. As you get faster, do it for both. This gets your mind used to thinking a few moves ahead and used to dealing with non-kata situations. Its a great mental exercise, and has helped me greatly in my sparring/randori.

You can also pick up some great techniques to try out. The most impressive are the combos these guys come up with. I was recently impressed by watching a round house kick turn into makikomi, followed by juji katame. I had never seen anyone pull makikomi from a round house kick that uke ducked under. But it sure was effective.

Lastly, you have to remember what you are watching. You are watching a sport, not a fight. MMA, NHB has a lot of rules. You have to realize that the guy with the great guard, that just lays there waiting to be stood up, is really waiting to be kicked in the head. You also have to realize that they are going for points. (yes, this is point fighting) There are no weapons, and only one opponent...... But, if that one guy is going to give you that much trouble, whats two or three going to do to you? Can you get off the wall, and maintain your feet and distance to strike in an alley, if you can't in a cage? Yes, there are one punch knockouts, but they surprise everybody. If you are a grappler, you will eat a few punches and kicks one the way in. If you are a striker, you will end up on the ground. So, yes it is a sport. Yes it has rules. No it is not the street. However, there is much there that can be taken and applied to the street. Besides, a little reality check every now and then is a good thing, especially when your life may be at stake.

Luebbers

11-05-2005, 13:15

I think that the sport of MMA has never been more exciting. I initially like the early UFCs better because of their style vs. style set up. I thought the modern ones were boring because everyone was the same fighter.

But, since I've been following MMA more seriously, and learned more about what's going on, the fights today are infinitely superior to the old ones. Sure, the old fights had that fun, bar room brawl raw quality to them, but they were a joke compared to the fights of today. If people think that the current UFC fights look sloppy and untechnical, just watch the first 10 UFCs.

Now, we've reached a point to where the fighters are really evolving quickly to round out their styles. Most of the current champs (Hughes, Franklin, Fedor) are so well rounded, they could finish the fight anywhere. The same is true for the new batch of fighters we are seeing coming up through the ranks. These are guys who are training in striking and grappling almost from the get go. While they usually have a preferred range of combat, you never know where the fight might go and who might be taking it (and hopefully finishing it there).

fightgrrl

11-05-2005, 14:24

There is also a great training possibility here. The biggest being to fight the match yourself. As they get into different situations, how long does it take you to realize what each needs to do? Do you know what they need to do? How fast can I recognise the technique being used, and how fast can I identify the counter? Pick one fighter to start. As you get faster, do it for both. This gets your mind used to thinking a few moves ahead and used to dealing with non-kata situations. Its a great mental exercise, and has helped me greatly in my sparring/randori.

We try to do this when we watch matches...Jeff is definitely great at figuring out what each guy is trying to set up and when he'll use it. I am getting better at seeing it in UFC/NHB stuff, but what I see more are a lot of missed opportunities for submissions lately. Recently everyone is loving ground and pound, dropping elbows instead of looking for an arm lock or bar.

The real challenge with the "seeing ahead" training is to watch Mexican boxing...the guys in the real light weight classes fight some fast, all out wars.

Jeff Burger

11-05-2005, 16:40

"Jeff is definitely great at figuring out what each guy is trying to set up and when he'll use it"

Sometimes when I watch fights Ill put myself inside one of the fighters. Sometimes Ill just try to read their body (what are they gonna throw).

Jeff

Erik

11-05-2005, 23:36

Erik and Tony every time you post something about MMA you take the words out of my mouth, so now I never have anything to say.
Wow. I write as well as Tony?!?

Thanks!

:D

Digi

11-07-2005, 00:44

gr455h0pp3r

11-07-2005, 05:59

Ive got something to say, I dont like it.

GodofGamblers

11-07-2005, 06:59

LOL...beautiful!! Sooo many people look at ufc as if fighters should be dancing around and entertaining the crowd, but they are there to whoop ***! If they do it better on the floor, then so be it. I remember the first ufc I saw (don't remember the number), it had royce gracie against the black bragon, the instructor of the guy who played Bruce Leroy in 'The Last Dragon' (A black Bruce Lee, oh yeah!) if anyone knows that movie. Anyways, the guy had been studying some form of karate for 40 yrs and did phenomenal on his feet, but when it got to the ground, he didn't do too well (hence the reason Gracie took him to the ground). This didn't convince me that bjj was the way to go, but it did show me that there is something you can do if you end up there. However, even in my bjj class, my instructor says that the last place you want to be is on the ground, but you should know what to do if you end up there. So although alot of the ufc seems like alot of shuffling around on the ground alot of technique is being used and its exciting to see how different people adapt to that situation, and the standup (which I actually have seen alot of) is VERY exciting

I remember that one! That was a great one! Actually, the Black Dragon guy did EXTREMELY well, especially considering that he was in his 50s. He was in incredible shape. In fact, the UFC has shown the importance of fitness (i vividly remember the close ups of Taktarov and Tank Abott after their match, both wearing oxygen masks and sucking at air like it was their last breath).

I also thank UFC for showing me the best fight i have ever seen: the Huas/Polar Bear fight.

Huas was fighting a giant of a man, the Polar Bear, 6'9" 290lbs with no fat on him at all, with all the odds stacked against him. He took him apart piece by piece in what was incredible, bloody, martial poetry... never forget that one.

AndrewSimonsen

11-07-2005, 17:45

That's not true. The thing about it is that UFC is not as well organized as Pride. I've seen Kevin Randleman, original student of Mark "The Hammer" Coleman, compete with the likes of Mirko and Fedor easily. The issue the better organization and treatment of PRIDE's fighters in contrast to the UFC. UFC is all about seeing who can get their head beaten like egg yolk and it doesn't matter who's the fighter, while Pride focuses on producing a good fight between equal skilled competitors.
While Kevin did get his fluke when against Mirko, in the rematch and in his fight against Fedor he lost within the first round. I don't think that Arlovski or the like would come anywhere close to those two though. Then again though, most fighters even within Pride can't hold a candle against Fedor, and as Mirko learns more grappling he is turning into a nearly demonic opponent.

I also think that if you compare the overall roster of fighters that both groups have you will find that while Pride has a larger stable of throwaway fighters that they use to boost records, if you look at the average fighter of both groups Pride is on average more skilled.

In the UFC's defence, most of my above comments tend to center around the heavier weight classes and the smaller fighters in the UFC like Matt Hughes are far better than their Pride counterparts. Another pet peave of mine is quite opposite of what you said about Pride ensuring that fights are balanced, I feel that Pride often stacks fight to give more popular but less skilled fighters like Sapp a chance.

Luebbers

11-07-2005, 20:56

I totally agree with Andrew. I think Pride has a much better heavy weight division, has a much deeper stable of cans, and probably has more of the highest ranking fighters, overall.

And, I also think they are far worse than the UFC in terms of throwing freak show mismatches out there. How many times does Sakuraba have to get demolished by Vanderlei? That guy hardly ever even fights in is real weight class. Or anything with Giant Silva.

Luebbers

11-07-2005, 21:02

Cliff Hargrave

11-07-2005, 22:39

........and as Mirko learns more grappling he is turning into a nearly demonic opponent.

I downloaded a video of Mirko training. He is a demon.....

Skye

11-08-2005, 00:00

One of the best things about the UFC is that it shows how important being fit and strong is. Stronger, fitter people often overcame people who was much more skilled. Now there are few people who aren't in incredibly good shape in the UFC. This will hopefully remind people that strength and conditioning should be something to build up in martial arts training, not something to overcome.

gatewayhoward

11-13-2005, 10:47

Erik

11-13-2005, 11:41

My teacher made it clear to us that the UFC competators were just that. There's nothing wrong with using martial arts for competing but it's a different world than self defense. These guys are masters at submission and I agree that a real fight looks simlilar, like there's no beauty or style in a real rumble.
The thing is that I don't train for submission, it's all well and fine to wrestle around in like Brazilian Jiu Jitsu but try wrestling a guy in a bar fight where your opponent's buddies come around the corner and start kicking you and so on. I still really respect the way they train.
So the guy who masters KO's and submission is in a different art than the guy who masters reacting quickly and taking out an opponent in a real fight.
I've said it again and again and again....

You don't go to the ground intentionally if there's a crowd and you have nobody covering your back. Submissions can end a guy's life as he knows it if they are done all the way through - an armlock breaks the arm right through if you don't let go, tap or not. Chokes KO the guy. Usually he wakes right up but sometimes he doesn't, which is really scary.

The skillset and training methods equip a guy with outstanding striking (fast, hard, accurate, and done while being hit at himself), takedowns and takedown resistance, and grappling skills to achieve, maintain, and attack from your choice of position, not the opponent's. This is all trained while under pressure so you learn a bit more about actually using your skillset while in a pinch, not while in an easy, comfortable, and admittedly totally fun traditional MA environment.

MMA is real fighting. I have been there, sometimes fighting along side, with guys like Gan McGee (PRIDE and UFC), Chuck Liddell (PRIDE and UFC), and Jason von Flue and a whole crew of guys in this circle who train MMA and are not on television. They are the real thing - period. Been there, done that, seen that, again, again, again, and again.