Why CEB and I are like that.

[Gene Williams]

I know there are others on this site who were brought up in traditional karate dojo like us, and I'd like to hear from them. But, for those who don't understand why we feel much has been lost to the "modern" trend, here are some thoughts.
My first karate lesson in a traditional dojo was 35 years ago. I went with a college buddy who had been to the first class in the old gym. When I got there, there were 4 others in the class(it grew to 12, dropped to 8, and stayed around 8 or 10 for 4 years). We waited...in walked a Japanese man in his 40's wearing an immaculate white gi with a black belt and some kanji on the breast of his gi. He called out something I didn't understand, but everyone lined up and so did I. He taught us how to bow, sit seiza, and get up properly. He patted his chest and said, "Sensei," then pointed to us and said "karateka." He called us all by our last names, which was great because we had a guy named Finklestein and one named Morales :D I still laugh remembering his pronunciations(we did not laugh then). We spent the rest of the class learning how to make a fist and punch, then doing zenkutsu dachi and walking up and down, turning at the end of each trip. God, that was hard to learn right. I thought making a fist with your index finger extended along the base of your thumb was weird. It took a while to get it right. We ended the class with pushups, "until can't do," and situps. That I was used to :D For the next couple of months, all we did was stances, walk, punch, block, kick, nothing but mae geri (ichi...knee up belt high, ni...kick goes out obi knot level/ball of foot contact, san...knee back to where it was at obi knot level, shi...foot down. Mo ichido!!) I don't know why I stayed. What in the Hell does this have to do with fighting? But, something kept me there. Maybe it was Higioshi Sensei's manner, his hands on teaching, his quietness that commanded so much respect. But, I stayed.
Classes were quiet except for kiai and his commands. Very few questions, "Sensei what is...." "Shhh! You do karate. No talk now." The most excitement was when our gi arrived about a month into the class. Higioshi came into the dressing room and showed us how to wear them. Most of us tried to put the pants on backwards. As time went on, classes got tough. I had blisters on my feet, and my knuckles were skinned and sore from hitting the makiwara. Sometimes the classes were nothing but two hours of up and down the floor basics. No football practice, PT session, or obstacle course ever left me as tired as some of his classes. He had us do a 1000 punch drill (yep, he kept count). I do it with my students to this day once in a while. Sensei would stand by you and do a technique, then you copied him. If he thought it was taking you too long to get it, "Williams, you sit shiko dachi." So, you sat there in shiko (he liked 'em deep) until he came back around. We learned to count in Japanese, basic Japanese terms, and etiquette, how to fold a gi and care for it. He would line us up in sanchin dachi and punch us in the gut, teaching us how to "meet punch." "You scared of my fist, Williams?" Bam! "No move!" Bam! "Never be scared of fist!" When we learned kumite (much later), we wore bogu and kicked and punched full power. We never went to tournaments, and he did not count points when we fought. In bogu, everyone knew when you were hit. So, this is how I grew up. I still teach this way, with some differences. After nearly 4 years, I made shodan. The kata I knew were: Fukyugata Sho and Ni, the Pinan, Naihanchi Shodan, Matsukaze, Rohai, Bassai Dai and Kusanku. Higioshi had been a front man for the YKK zipper company which was building a plant in our town. A couple of years after I graduated, he went back to Osaka. He died in 1998. I owe him my karate life.

[moogong]

Interesting story, Gene. This is healthy. Pretend you are on a therapist couch and finish the story. By the time you get to present day, all your hosility will have left you and you will be a nicer person. :D


So let me ask you...when did things start to go wrong with the martial arts in America? Can you pinpoint a certain year, decade, or trend?

[Gene Williams]

I don't know. Like everything else, declines are gradual and nobody notices until it is widespread. Bruce Lee didn't help. The trend of tournaments toward "sport" karate didn't help either. Then, you have a Japanese/Okinawan art brought into an American culture with an innovative, pioneer spirit. The very thing that made us great in industry and war has kinda' screwed up the traditional martial arts. A lot of the guys who brought karate here were servicemen who did not really have a lot of years in Okinawa or Japan, so they brought technique and a little knowledge and filled in with good old American innovation. Many of them openly criticized the Japanese (it hadn't been that long since WWII). When I joined an American organization later on, the head of it (who had trained in Okinawa) called them rice heads and Nips. It pissed me off and I left, but it gave me a little insight..."we'll take your karate but screw you," seemed to be their attitude. I think there is a lot of that attitude still, without the racist epithets.

[Budoka34]

Williams Sensei,

The spirit of this training is not dead. In my first school we did two hundred punches, blocks and kicks for our warm ups. Line drills were the name of the game. Free sparring was done sans bogu and with "controlled" contact.
I remember bloody knuckles from doing push ups in the gravel parking lot.
I remember the sting of the shinai to correct my stance or quiet my talking and I was always talking.
All of this was in the youth classes!

My current school has a similar "feel" of disipline while still maintaining a much safer enviroment for the students.

And yes amoung a few of us the shinai is still a motivator. ;)

[moogong]

I agree, I have been in the company of a few old time "American-ized Karate" teacher and organization heads and some of the comments have been sickening.
I can think of a few of the servicemen who continued to travel back to Japan and Okinawa that I admire. Dan Ivan being one of them.

[Gene Williams]

You are right, it is still around, but it is getting harder to find. I think a lot has been lost, but the old ways aren't for everyone. If you are a competition fighter and want to make a name, there are quicker, better ways to get there.

[Gene Williams]

I agree, I have been in the company of a few old time "American-ized Karate" teacher and organization heads and some of the comments have been sickening.
I can think of a few of the servicemen who continued to travel back to Japan and Okinawa that I admire. Dan Ivan being one of them.

Ivan and Demura were buddies. I never met Ivan and haven't heard much about him lately.

[TonyU]

Wow Flashbacks,
While I don't go back as far as you Gene, you did bring back some memories. You're right some things has gradualy changed. I've forgoten a few things until you brought it up.
When I was going for my shodan, 1,000 punches in shikodachi, was always done at the end of the test. Of course after you've done all your basics, kata, drills, self defense (with real weapons, i.e. clubs, knives) and you fought all the black belts.
So when I knew I was going to test, I prepared myself as much as I could. I stood in shikodachi while watching TV, brushing my teeth in the morning. Even at work as a cabinetmaker (at that time) I would try to do work on my workbench in shikodachi stance.
Well when it came to our test it was held outdoors in a area the size of a football field.
After we finished everything they lined us up on one end. I'm thinking this is wierd way to have us line up for our 1,000 punches. Wrong. They had us do the last move in Fukyugata, which is shuto (knife edge strike), double down blocks, front kick naval high, done at full power. If you got caught slacking (in any part of the test)you failed. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.
Well after about 25 yards I was lucky if I was kicking knee height, ankle height at 50.
After we were done someone opened their mouth and we wound up going back for another 100 yards. Needless to say I was kicking divots by the time I was done.
Could barely walk correctly for days after.
Ah, the memories. Damn I'm getting old.

[Gene Williams]

That's great! You know, I still brush my teeth and shave in shiko sometimes, especially on vacation when I can't train as much. When we did 1000 punch, it started with punches in shiko, then oi zuki from hachiji dachi stepping into zenkutsu(foot and fist better land together, too), then gyakuzuki from hanmi, then chotto zuki up and down the floor, then back to shiko. Your tests sound like our's. :)

[Andrew Green]

I know there are others on this site who were brought up in traditional karate dojo like us, and I'd like to hear from them. But, for those who don't understand why we feel much has been lost to the "modern" trend, here are some thoughts.

I started in traditional karate (Isshin ryu) and fully agree that much of what is being done now is very different from even 10 years ago.

But at the same time, I don't think much has been lost. There was a small number of people doing it back then, and there are a small number of people doing it now.

We just have the addition of another set of people doing this new stuff.

And a lot of the "modern" stuff has a long history. BJJ goes back quite a ways, boxing and wrestling have a long history, Muay thai does as well. Combining them was lost for a while though.

But I don't think that is the stuff you get annoyed about...

Point fighting and forms competition is more likely it. A safe, easy, watered down activity that everyone can have fun at and feel good about themselves.

They are what script kiddies are to hackers.

What Bloggers are to php/sql programmers.

They can call themselves hackers and webmasters, but what they do is not the same. Was never meant to be. But it is what they do, its what they want, and its what they enjoy. So what difference does it make? Apart from making them look silly once and a while?

There is a market for the tourny stuff, a much bigger one then there is for the "hardcore traditional" stuff. No sense in getting all pissy about it though, just makes you look insecure and bitter.

[TonyU]

Good point Andrew.
It used to bother me, now I shake my head and move on. I rather put my enrgy and time into my training.

[Gene Williams]

I don't believe there is any bitterness or insecurity in mine or CEB's posts. Your points are well taken, however, about the other things you mention. I do believe that there are those out there who may be pondering various MA's to train and who need to hear the stuff we traditionalists who came up that way have to say. Plus, if they are gonna' call it "karate" they need to know what "karate" really is/was. Now, once again, if someone is interested in competition or simple street self-defense there are quicker, better ways to get there.

[David Craik]

Great post Gene. Brings back memories...

[Gae-Bek]

I don't believe there is any bitterness or insecurity in mine or CEB's posts.

I understand it to a degree. Right now it's hard for me to really want much to do with the "traditional" martial arts world. I just have no use for the self-promoters, the power-ranger-wannabes, and the crappy tournaments. And it seems the older I get, the less inhibitions I have about telling these people what I really think.

I just wish that CEB would go out and make his own points occasionally, instead of playing your side-kick all the time.


if they are gonna' call it "karate" they need to know what "karate" really is/was.

That is an excellent point, and I wish more people believed that.

[Gene Williams]

Hey Aaron, Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Serious traditionalists don't like all that crap, either.

[CEB]

Damn Gene. I wake up, my first day on vacation and I see my initials in a thread title. .....

Don't know if I have much worth adding. I don't know if I see much sense in adding my own points. Anyone who could understand my points already knows them. Anyone who doesn't know what these points are doesn’t have the common frame of reference required to understand my point of view. I left this Budoseek thing. I don’t see how anyone can learn about Budo on the Internet myself. I had Robert close my account but recently I received e-mails form Robert, Gene and I think Tony to come back and visit. Something about me having a lot to offer. I disagree, I am just a farm boy from Illinois. I come here to shoot the breeze with Gene Williams. Since I am sort of on the spot I guess I will try to say a few words on how the subject relates to me. I am a numbers man and not much on rhetoric.

Maybe the deterioration of karate in the west was inevitable. Maybe it is not conducive to our culture. Maybe it is because cultural ideas such as wabi and sabi are foreign to western minds. The idea of appreciation of simplicity is an important one in understanding Budo in my opinion. One of the lines of Chinen Sensei’s Dojo Kun is “Live a plain life.”

Pride is an issue that is addressed in most Dojo Kun I am familiar with. The set of beliefs held within the Dojo Kun typically encompasses complete processes of everyday life. Pride and ego are tied together. Ego is an enemy we try to overcome in karate. There is an old saying that goes “ The nail that sticks up get hammered down”. Now everything is about, “look at me, look what I have done”. This is not a good representation of what karate is about. IMO. There is a whole lot ego being shown here.
http://image20.webshots.com/21/1/56/59/204915659ExSAVd_ph.jpg


This is the kind of thing that makes me kind of shake my head. It isn’t necessarily about how hard you train or don’t train or whether you are wuss or not. It is about shugyo and kokoro and simply enjoying the your practice.

‘Sometimes a man can only do what a man can only do.’ A student of mine started a dojo a couple of years ago. He had his legs severed in a bike accident. They reattached the legs but he is still has some physical limitations. I think he had a complex concerning not leading his students through keiko that he could not do himself. I now teach there once or twice a week. I started helping them out a few months ago. Teenagers and middle-aged housewives who are not in the best of shape. They train hard considering their physical strength. They give me 100%. But, if I asked them to do the things asked of me it would break them. I train them considering their physical capabilities. We are in the business of helping people. In the way my Sensei helped me. It is good. They are improving everyday. They will get there I think. There is no ego. Everyone enjoys their practice. There is a lot of sweat and the classes are conducted in a way that demonstrates that appreciation of the simplicity I touched on above that I feel gets to the heart of Budo. My upbringing was similar to Gene's. But I can't teach these people in the exact physical manner we were taught but their reletive rate of work I think is pretty much equal. I guess what I am trying to get at here is that it is about heart and spirit. Not puerly about the degree of physical pain and labor.

I do not have a problem with the modern plethora of martial arts that are available. I played a little (very little) some with some MMA guys. They train smart. They train hard. They connect themselves to the philosophies of Budo in no way. Yet many of them are very Budo like some of their actions. Pain and sweat seem to have a way of instilling humility. Maybe the
guys I played with were an exception, but they were good people. Their behavior shows to me at least they have a understanding of kokoro, even though they have probably never heard the word.

Hell I am sure you karate guys know more about this stuff than I do. Have a good weekend. Take care and Gene keep my name out of the headlines. :laugh:

[Gene Williams]

Very nice, Ed. See, that didn't hurt too much. Don't go away for good. Have a nice vacation.

[jjaje]

Gene,

This is a good thread, and a very good post you wrote. While I admit to being less of a traditionalist, I can certainly appreciate the spirit, determination and work that you and others have gone through. I am wondering your perspective on a few things.

Let me start with an analogy. Where I live, there is a fairly large church that seeks out the un-churched. It uses contemporary music (even rock and roll), drama, video and relavent messages to reach their target audience. Often the Christian radio talk turns to contemporary versus traditional churches. Traditionalists often claim the contemporary church is "watered down", and that it's choice of music is non-traditional. Next someone will call in saying that the hymns of the traditional church were at one time new, and back then considered edgey and blasphemous to many.

Which brings me to karate. Do you think the first time a person started hitting a makiwara board, others thought it ridiculous, until it caught on? Do you think the thought of doing 1000 punches in a training session at one time was considered improper teaching? Did they always practice like that? At what point did it become the norm, or was it always the norm?

Is it the structure and discipline that you really like? The training methods? Or perhaps the lifestyle, code of conduct, or perhaps I'll just call that the budo of that lifestyle?

Certainly, many martial artists train just as hard as back then, just in a different way. You mention Bruce Lee, many credit him for bringing awareness of the martial arts out in the open, but I can see how it can be thought of as non-traditional. However, I believe there was a period of Bruce Lee's life where he was incredibly dedicated to his training and martial life.

My thoughts are that there are a plethora of martial arts schools for all tastes. If you want rank fast, if you want to fight a lot, if you want traditional of if you want to compete, it can all be found. Just as there are a plethora of church denominations to suit different tastes.

[Jeff C.]

I think nowadays, no matter what school, system, ryu, art - many practitioners place their priority in what they think the product should be, and thus lose sight of the most important thing: the process.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[Gene Williams]

Damn, Jeff, you sure ask a lot of questions! :) The church analogy is interesting...back when I was looking for answers I got an MA in theology/philosophy. I am a TULIP Presbyterian who hates contemporary worship/liturgy. I think it is apologetic and consults the laity's preferences rather than trying to educate them. Church/worship should inspire awe and instill a quiet, confessional spirit, not make everyone hyperactive. I have even referred to kata as "the Canon of karate."
But, to your other questions: 1) I believe that striking objects and hand conditioning had a long history in China before Okinawa. I do not know if the maki was an import or originally Okinawan. CEB might know. There was more of a cultural basis for such conditioning back then and so I do not believe it was thought odd. 2)Did they always practice like that? Well, all we really have is what has been passed down to us. I have studied under two Japanese, one Hawaiian, and trained alot with two other Okinawans. They all do it that way. The people they trained under (Motobu, Mabuni, Myagi, Sakagami, Nagamine, Izumikawa) apparently all did it that way. I think training was even more physical back then, because we read of some of the serious injuries. They also used to fight and challenge each other. They kicked kerosene cans with their toes, peeled the bark off palm trees to strengthen their hands, and broke stuff. Again, I think these things evolved in the culture that engendered them. That is why they are unique. As form follows function in biology as well as physical endeavor, these things come to us after a long history of a sort of natural selection. To approach them from a 21st century mindset and to try to impose that on those arts by innovation and "creativity" is about like the people who try to "demythologize" scripture based upon 21st century understandings of science and history. The two world views do not mix well. 3) Is it the structure and discipline I like, the training methods, or is it the lifestyle/code of conduct? Yes. All of that. They go together. I can't separate them. Call me a "preservationist," or a traditionalist (I also believe that you could read nothing but Shakespeare, Dickens, and the Bible your whole life and be happy and very well read.) I never argue that my way is the only way, and I know there are plenty of martial artists out there who train just as hard as I do. As I have said, if you are into competition fighting or simple self defense or are an LEO, there are quicker and better ways to get what you need. But, karate is karate. That means karate is kata and all those other things you mentioned. If someone is going to talk the talk, they need to know where to walk. And, you do it until you die. You never stop doing kata, hitting the maki (I even asked my doc if the maki was going to cause me arthritic problems. He x rayed my hands and said, "so far, so good.") I'v done kata, basics, maki, and kobudo so long (I also jog because I see that as part of MA training-endurance is important) that I wouldn't know who I was if I didn't do it. It doesn't mean I'm better or smarter or tougher than anyone else, just a karateka. It is all I know to do. It doesn't matter if I have to fight a thug, a grappler, a boxer, or another karate guy. You do what you know best. "You dance with the one that brung you." Karate is what I have...that's what I have to use.

PS I do think that the line up and do basics up and down the floor in unison is more of a Japanese/Shotokan method of training based upon the Japanese military approach to training. But, I like it and so I use it. I think I owe people's physical conditioning something, so my classes are physically hard and tiring many nights.

[Erik]

What is it specifically that you guys like so much about this kind of training culture?

Personally, it drives me nuts and turns me off, but that's just me. I was always drawn to the culture of BJJ, wrestling teams, boxing clubs, and so on. But you guys really appreciate it, so please, enlighten me.

This is not meant to be a rhetorical question, by the way. I'd like to learn what you guys know (Tony & Jeff especially).

[Gene Williams]

I like the "spartan" nature of it. I like the discomfort and the heat in summer (we don't have AC and it is south Ga.) and the cold in winter (we only have kerosene heaters).. I like the physical hardness of it (you guys have that), I like bruises on my forearms and shins, I like the callouses on my knuckles and feet, and I like a sopping wet gi after 2 hours of basics, partner work, and kata. I like to sit at home and rub my hand up and down my shins...they feel like washboards. :) I like to hit the makiwara until my knuckles bleed and then fill the cuts with ashes from the incense burner. I like to hit the heavy bag until I cannot raise my arms and am out of breath. I like to hear bo and tonfa whack against one another, and one night when one of my seniors splintered a red oak bo on someone's tonfa and half of it went flying across the dojo and everyone ducked, I thought that was great. :D When someone senior to me is in the dojo teaching (unfortunately, that doesn't happen much now), I like being yelled at and made to do pushups for messing something up. I used to like for Higioshi or Ruiz to walk up in front of me while I was doing Sanchin and punch me in the gut hard or whack me on the backs of the legs with a bokken (WHACK!!! "Don't flinch! You scared of this stick? Karate man not scared of being hit!" WHACK!!!) A kata based art is very structured in its practice. You can do many repetitions of kata, breaking them down to work on fine points, or you can go through them all in sequence. It is also very meditative. Kata has been called moving zen, and seniors who have been doing it for years know what it is to just immerse yourself in the kata...sort of zone out. I think what you have is what you said...a club atmosphere. Not a thing wrong with that. I had that in HS and college baseball and in YMCA boxing. But, traditional karate is more of an individualistic thing. You are in a dojo with others, but it is not by any stretch a club atmosphere. There is a rank hierarchy, you are training to go more deeply into yourself and your art, and kata is an extremely individualistic pursuit. I hate a class where the instructor talks too much, especially in English. I do not speak Japanese well, but I do try to teach in the dojo with as little English as possible. I will not even put on a gi if I can't train for at least an hour, preferably 2. I'd rather run or ride a bike or swim for short workouts. Does that help?

[poetic misjustice]

i also get annoyed at the lack of traditional ways in a lot of ryus, ehy seem to see karate a form of combat sport which i really don't like, also the modern standardised belt factories annoy me, a couple of years and they're a black belt? sounds like crap to me they still have loads to learn, i've been doing wado-ryu since i was very young and i'm still 4th kyu admittedly i have been out on injury quite a bit but still i'm only 18 i have no place to be a black belt yet, i still have way too much to learn, yet in the ryu down the road from us i get jived by 15 year old black belts who have only been studying since they were 7 or 8 which i think is stupid because i beat all of them in the last inter ryu tournament yet they still think they are better than me, admittedly i don't have any experience of american schools or the good old days but it still gets me annoyed that tradition is lost and i'm really sorry to see it happen because the japanese culture is definatly one of my favorites, sorry but i do get annoyed at people who only see karate as a competition sport


BTW i also brush my teeth and shave in shiko, another of my favorites is strapping weights to various limbs in horse stance, and i do shiko while doing dunbells in the gym

[Bugeisha]

Poetic-
Here, I think you dropped these:
......................................
......................................
.................................... ;)


Gene, Ed, Tony, Chris,
I for one really appreciate hearing about your practice, as well as the practice of everyone else who has trained in the traditional manner. Thanks for sharing your experience and insight. It reminds me what Budo is actually about, despite the mask it may wear today.

[TonyU]

What is it specifically that you guys like so much about this kind of training culture?

Personally, it drives me nuts and turns me off, but that's just me. I was always drawn to the culture of BJJ, wrestling teams, boxing clubs, and so on. But you guys really appreciate it, so please, enlighten me.

This is not meant to be a rhetorical question, by the way. I'd like to learn what you guys know (Tony & Jeff especially).
My apologies Erik, but I'm on vacation, came here to scan the forum and noticed you asked me a question.
I'll get back to you when I return home and have more time to give you a better response.

[Gene Williams]

I like the "spartan" nature of it. I like the discomfort and the heat in summer (we don't have AC and it is south Ga.) and the cold in winter (we only have kerosene heaters).. I like the physical hardness of it (you guys have that), I like bruises on my forearms and shins, I like the callouses on my knuckles and feet, and I like a sopping wet gi after 2 hours of basics, partner work, and kata. I like to sit at home and rub my hand up and down my shins...they feel like washboards. :) I like to hit the makiwara until my knuckles bleed and then fill the cuts with ashes from the incense burner. I like to hit the heavy bag until I cannot raise my arms and am out of breath. I like to hear bo and tonfa whack against one another, and one night when one of my seniors splintered a red oak bo on someone's tonfa and half of it went flying across the dojo and everyone ducked, I thought that was great. :D When someone senior to me is in the dojo teaching (unfortunately, that doesn't happen much now), I like being yelled at and made to do pushups for messing something up. I used to like for Higioshi or Ruiz to walk up in front of me while I was doing Sanchin and punch me in the gut hard or whack me on the backs of the legs with a bokken (WHACK!!! "Don't flinch! You scared of this stick? Karate man not scared of being hit!" WHACK!!!) A kata based art is very structured in its practice. You can do many repetitions of kata, breaking them down to work on fine points, or you can go through them all in sequence. It is also very meditative. Kata has been called moving zen, and seniors who have been doing it for years know what it is to just immerse yourself in the kata...sort of zone out. I think what you have is what you said...a club atmosphere. Not a thing wrong with that. I had that in HS and college baseball and in YMCA boxing. But, traditional karate is more of an individualistic thing. You are in a dojo with others, but it is not by any stretch a club atmosphere. There is a rank hierarchy, you are training to go more deeply into yourself and your art, and kata is an extremely individualistic pursuit. I hate a class where the instructor talks too much, especially in English. I do not speak Japanese well, but I do try to teach in the dojo with as little English as possible. I will not even put on a gi if I can't train for at least an hour, preferably 2. I'd rather run or ride a bike or swim for short workouts. Does that help?

Erik, here's a reminder of what I said in answer to your question. :)

[Erik]

No problem, Tony! I hope you're having a great break.

I could sure use a vacation, too... 14 months at this job and I finally used one sick day. Still saving up my vacation and sick time for a honeymoon in December... it's going to be a long summer and fall.

Gene - those are good details and certainly answer the question I asked, but I was trying to get at a more general answer, such as why you like doing katas so much, what you get out of this kind of training that one doesn't usually get out of the training in my end of things, and so on.

I guess I should have asked it more clearly, but I'm having trouble finding the words.

We did similar "meathead" stuff, pushing ourselves hard and cleaning out the spirit (for lack of a better term) in water polo, swimming (Try 8 miles straight, sometimes through your own puke! Several times per week, too. Whoah!), college, wrestling (2,800 pushups in one practice - ugh!), ROTC, and especially submission wrestling/MMA, but none of it was with a traditional Asian culture adjunct to it - the idea with which the thread started.

I did kuk sool for a while and, though the group was pretty cool and the instructor was truly tops, I was so darn bored doing techniques against a non-resisting opponent, kicking air, and doing those *@#$)!#%&*# forms over and over again.

I got nothing out of it. I felt that it actually made me less capable as a fighter (I was a bouncer for a while and had a lot of fights in jr high and high school, so I had a sense of at least what I thought fighting was about) and less of an athlete than I would otherwise have been had I spent that time on the track and in the pool or at a more western MA like submission wrestling, BJJ, etc.

It grew to be dull (to me) to hear all these speculations about how "it was done in the old days [Japan, China, Korea, wherever]." These stories were amusing but the fact that these people believed them like the Gospel without any verification or scepticism turned me off. It was like a mini-religion. I like proof, documentation, or at least agreement that we're speculating and not reminiscing about something we weren't there to witness.

It also got a little annoying hearing these "masters" (not the kuk sool club, mind you) talk about how to fight when they had clearly never done so.

None were bad folks and none were chumps - they worked really, really hard, but I had way more fight experience than they did, which is fine, but they did not seem to be able to communicate (or understand?) how to translate their mechanics into the chaos and unpredictability of a fight outside the dojo.

Anyway, I am trying to better wrap my mind around what non-silly (you, Tony, Jeff, Robert, etc.) people get out of "traditional" Asian MAs as there's heaps of good knowledge in them but I'm having trouble sorting it out from the nonsense and still trying to learn to recognize good lessons that I cannot learn elsewhere.

This is a little like the "katas are good/bad" discussion but I'm looking for a real answer, trying to see through your eyes, not an asinine arguement about whose style is cooler.

[Gene Williams]

I understand what you are saying, Erik, and I would never argue that traditional kata based arts are for everyone. But, I grew up under teachers who did not talk very much (I hate instructors who talk too much) and who's attitude was, and this is a quote from Higioshi, "karate is something you do, not something you talk about." Now, kata without actual fighting against an opponent is not enough. You have to hit and be hit, grab and be grabbed. In a traditional ryu with serious instructors, everything should come together. A lot of physical and mental conditioning goes on over time, and it takes a lot longer in the traditional ryu to gain proficiency. But, it becomes a way of life, I suppose. I think that many traditional ryu have been watered down a lot, and too many people have been given high rank for political reasons, but the good stuff is still there. As for kata, after 35 years of doing the same ones and working constantly to understand them on many levels, they are meditation for me. They are something I can do until I die; I can't fight 25 year olds forever, and I can't go to the mat with hot shot 25 year old competitive fighters, but if a 25 year old punk attacks me in the street or in a bar when I am 70, he's gonna' get the surprise of his life. I like karate because it will take me all the way. I told my wife I wish I could have everything said that needs to be said, and all my affairs in order and die running kata. That is better than my grandfather, who said he wanted to live to be 100 and be hung for rape. :D He made it to 93...I don't know about the other thing. :bow:

[Joseph Svinth]

Erik --

Try the following book. It doesn't talk about Asian martial arts, but it does talk a lot about the development of close order drill, which is essentially the same. The thesis is that doing ritualized physical activities as part of a group helps build group solidarity and cohesion.

William H. McNeill, "Keeping Together in Time: Dance and Drill in Human History," Harvard University Press, 1995. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0674502299/002-4736742-7639269?v=glance

[Gene Williams]

Hi Joe, My experience has been that, over time, the group becomes secondary and kata moves one into a much more individualistic, internal mode. You still go to the dojo and train with others, but it becomes less the focus.

[breaksallaround]

what bugeisha said. i had a pretty narrow view of karate (points, sport, pulling punches) before i read this thread. guess i never heard anybody with real experience talk (or type) about it before. thanks.

[Gene Williams]

Thanks,Juelian. BTW, I HATE sports karate! :mad:

[De_Franza]

Having read this thread, I'd love to train under you Gene.
I can also say that I"ve had a little taste of the "old school style" training from one of my previous teachers... repetition, repetition, reptition... by end of class, you're so wiped you can barely get your gi off. That's the stuff.
I've read this whole thread in one sitting and am feeling inspired! The next class I teach is going to be "old school day" and I bet we'll have a few drop outs! oSS!

Erik, to attempt a lame answer to your questions, For me personally, I like all this stuff just like Gene said, and what I think it is, is the repetition and moving meditation aspect of kata practice, it gets you 'in the zone' and I love when I get there. I can totally forget everything else and it's just right-now, right-now, SO in the moment, so alive. it's a great feeling but very hard to describe. Mushin is the Japanese word, if I'm not mistaken and/or using it wrong. That's part of what I like about it.

I also second what Gene said, one needs kumite to compliment kata, and if one can carry that in teh zone mind into the kumite, one can fight much better, in my very limited experience and opinion. and snapping into that mode in other parts of life is great too.

but that's just me.

[Joseph Svinth]

Gene --

Watch those Japanese karate demonstrations orchestrated by Cecil B. DeMile, with their cast of thousands, and you'll see what I'm getting at. The idea seems to be along the same line of modern air forces teaching close order drill to Air Force recruits. Nobody really expects the rotorheads to walk anywhere, but the lessons learned (and taught) about teamwork, responsibilities of leaders and followers, command voice, and so on still have universal application within the military subculture. Traditional Okinawan karate is more individualistic, but most Japanese karate is into giving the outward appearance that everyone here is moving together in time.

Erik --

Speaking of universal applications, another book to find, probably in the business section of your library: Boye L. DeMente, "Japan’s Secret Weapon: The Kata Factor" (Phoenix, AZ: Phoenix Books/Publishers, 1990). The thing to remember here is that *any* ritualized pattern commonly practiced within a group or subculture can be termed "kata."

[OkinawaGojuRyu]

Traditional Karate Do develops kime , or focus , & develops Mushin , or no mindedness . Which when in a fight , it becomes second nature , you dont think you just react . There is no time to think , you must react . Being a traditionalist , I can tell you there are much better ways to learn to defend yourself , then traditional Karate , if you are looking to learn self defense quickly . However , if you train Karate Do long enough , you will learn to defend yourself well . Karate Do to me is not a hobby , or past time , it is a way of life . If you treat Karate as a hobby , it will not be there for you , however if you make it yours , you will have it when you need it .

[TonyU]

Since I was on vacation everone pretty much summed up my feelings and opinions of kata, but I'll try to throw a few things in.
Keep in mind this is my perspective and mine only. Some may agree some my not. I couldn't care less (remember that thread?) :)
Kata to me is a non-ending journey of experimenting and research. It also a glimpse into that past, which I enjoy.
What I like about my kata practice is that it is always with me. No matter where I go I can practice my art by myself, whether it's in my parents back yard in Florida or at the beach (in the water or out).
As it also has been mentioned it is a form of meditation for me. If I'm frustrated or angry I can perform my katas and they have a calming efffect.
But the most have fun I have with it is trying to decypher the puzzle. What were the great masters thinking when they practiced or put it together. While some applications IMO do not apply I've found many that do. It also a portion of the overall picture.
Is it for everyone? Of course not. Is there other better ways to get the point across? Of course there is. But it's fun nevertheless. And that to me is the key. You have to enjoy and have fun with it. I know I do.
Again it's not for everyone.
I mentioned this to someone before. If a prospective student comes to me and ask to be taught self defense. I will not teach kata (even though there may be some kata applications).
If they come to me and ask to be taught Okinawan Karate Do, specifically Shorin Ryu, then they will be taught kata.
Just my three cents.

[Gene Williams]

Very good. I agree, except I won't teach just self-defense. I have in the past, but quit because I can teach someone x number of techniques in 8 weeks, etc., but I can't develop a warrior spirit, determination, toughness, and a mindset that will be applicable in any situation in that amount of time. That takes years of fundamentals, kata, partner work, fighting, and mild to moderate abuse. :D I believe that LEO's are more qualified to teach self-defense, anyway, because they see what actually happens in those situations all the time. A friend of mine who teaches Shotokan and who is a detective here (he was in a patrol car for years) once told me something that I like. We were talking about fighting in the street and he said, "Look, you have to be fierce. There are people out there who aren't scared of me, they aren't scared of you, they aren't scared of guns, knives and sticks, they aren't scared of judges or the courts, they aren't scared of going to prison. All they understand is someone who can produce more violence than they can."

[TonyU]

I was using self defense as an anology. I don't own a dojo (yet) so I don't teach unless of course you count the academy.

[Gene Williams]

Are you actively trying to find a place for a dojo? Will it be your first? I really enjoyed teaching. I still do, but I have turned my dojo over to my senior student, Mr. Snider. I have two other students teaching in other towns, and I go do clinics for them and go to regular classes sometimes. I am thinking about opening another of my own because I miss having a class full of beginners. I learn more teaching them than I do teaching the seniors.

[TonyU]

Are you actively trying to find a place for a dojo? Will it be your first?
No Gene. Unfortunately because of my schedule I cannot open a dojo.
I taught full time for my instructor many years ago before I came on the job. I did it for 2 years, from begginers all the way to brown belts. Then when I came on the job and still had a decent schedule I taught the begginers class and then for awhile teens. It was fun.
I'm hoping when I retire (in approx. 14 years) I can open one up and yes it will be my first.

[CEB]

...Kata to me is a non-ending journey of experimenting and research. .....

This is an OK view. What I am curious about is when and how teachers implement this type of pedagogy to their students?

[Gene Williams]

I agree about the non-ending journey part, and about the experimentation and research...to a point. I think some people get too creative and try to change the kata. For me, experimentation is for bunkai, not with the kata moves as I was taught them. I tried to instill the non-ending journey/primacy of kata mindset by example. I used to train in the dojo on non-class days and invited any students who wanted to come train then to do so. Rules: do not interrupt me during a kata, do not ask me to teach you a kata, no kumite in the dojo while I am doing kata. I usually told students what time I would be there, then got there an hour or so early so I could train by myself. I live on a big Ga. Power Co. hydroelectric lake and often do kata down on my sandy beach early on weekend mornings. Many of my students can see me from the lake and some from their docks across the lake. Once I had a few brown and black belts, I would invite them to come and do my workout with me. We would warm-up together, then I would stand in front with them behind me and call the name of the kata and we would do it. I never did the by the numbers thing for seniors. I figured they would do better to do it with me and try to fall in to my rhythm and pace. I told them to try to copy my stances and hand positions exactly. As they progressed, they developed their own rhythm and pace. I would teach "standard" bunkai, then encourage them to find others from their buddies in other ryu or other arts.

[Black Fox]

i know a few books got written - on the angle i bring up now - i don't neccisarily agree with their opinion just because they got published.

i got a little taste of some tradidional aspects - during my time though the parents needed to sign a waver to get target students joined-in full participation of the 'discipline' recomended by the master. sticks ect...
i could not fathom why i got this treatment and only four others - and i hated it at the time. now, i appreciate it much more and feel priviledged for going through it - it makes you tough, in a way that just cannot get duplicated. and in the 'old days' - it produced levels of intensity that go far beyond my own experiences - these fighters function better under certain kinds of stress and conditions. the loss of this approach in the modern world holds mixed results and will change how things get done.

on the other hand - i never looked back. i still abuse myself in training though - i get less 'tough' year by year. the training methods get ever more sophistocated and become more individualy-based it seems - with a focus on the results demended by the student. they may miss a great deal for not ghaining exposure to traditions and even if great athletes and fighters, may not carry a true warrior spirit without extensive modern millitary (actual combat in most cases) duty and training.

does a civil-warrior exist? - acceptance of pain/death and seeking it out, discipline of self to protect life/family or in loyalty/service to something greater - without reserve. if not these traits to adhere to - what does the new version of the warrior/fighter tend to invest their energy toward? forget rhetoric or creeds/codes ect... with the modern worlds toned down 'intensity in terms of some outer aspects of disciplined training and inclusion of more individual/'relaxed' approaches, - what could a modern practice of budo within a less traditional art look like if it survives?

could you sell it? could one merely buy it?

with modern training methods does it come down to the individual himself to define some 'kind' of budo on their own? can one person do this by themselves? do we in the modern world carry enough signifigent experiences without a traditional form of training to aquire anything similar (i mean besides a 'hard-life' and some luck) - or do all/most modern learners using modern methods 'get put out in the cold'?

how could this get accomplished without alot of lawsuits for abuse of students, i mean? how could anyone possibly truely 'obtain' the 'test' and it's survival without some potential legal issues coming up?

[Gene Williams]

i know a few books got written - on the angle i bring up now - i don't neccisarily agree with their opinion just because they got published.

i got a little taste of some tradidional aspects - during my time though the parents needed to sign a waver to get target students joined-in full participation of the 'discipline' recomended by the master. sticks ect...
i could not fathom why i got this treatment and only four others - and i hated it at the time. now, i appreciate it much more and feel priviledged for going through it - it makes you tough, in a way that just cannot get duplicated. and in the 'old days' - it produced levels of intensity that go far beyond my own experiences - these fighters function better under certain kinds of stress and conditions. the loss of this approach in the modern world holds mixed results and will change how things get done.

on the other hand - i never looked back. i still abuse myself in training though - i get less 'tough' year by year. the training methods get ever more sophistocated and become more individualy-based it seems - with a focus on the results demended by the student. they may miss a great deal for not ghaining exposure to traditions and even if great athletes and fighters, may not carry a true warrior spirit without extensive modern millitary (actual combat in most cases) duty and training.

does a civil-warrior exist? - acceptance of pain/death and seeking it out, discipline of self to protect life/family or in loyalty/service to something greater - without reserve. if not these traits to adhere to - what does the new version of the warrior/fighter tend to invest their energy toward? forget rhetoric or creeds/codes ect... with the modern worlds toned down 'intensity in terms of some outer aspects of disciplined training and inclusion of more individual/'relaxed' approaches, - what could a modern practice of budo within a less traditional art look like if it survives?

could you sell it? could one merely buy it?

with modern training methods does it come down to the individual himself to define some 'kind' of budo on their own? can one person do this by themselves? do we in the modern world carry enough signifigent experiences without a traditional form of training to aquire anything similar (i mean besides a 'hard-life' and some luck) - or do all/most modern learners using modern methods 'get put out in the cold'?

how could this get accomplished without alot of lawsuits for abuse of students, i mean? how could anyone possibly truely 'obtain' the 'test' and it's survival without some potential legal issues coming up?

Russell,
You really need to take a little more time with your posts and clean up the spelling, grammar, and sentence structure so we can understand what you are trying to get across.

[CEB]

That sounds great Williams Sensei. I like your approaches. I think people get too creative. Worse is that sensei are encouraging deshi to get creative at too early of an age.

You said something once that really struck a chord with me. It is one of those things that I filed away in my memory banks for future use whenever the time is appropriate. You know when ever someone may ask ‘well couldn’t it be this or couldn’t this be that etc’….. We were talking about front kicks once and people were talking about the different methods of front kick. You said that yes there was many ways you can do the front kick but, there is only one way you can learn a front kick from me!

Somewhere in the 90’s ‘Classical’ Okinawian karate became a rage. Then Bunkai Oyo became this thing that was discussed in all the karate magazines like Budo Dojo, Dragon Times etc…. This bandwagon was a twin-edged sword I think. The exposure was good in some regards but detrimental in others.

This emphasis in oyo lead to too much experimentation at too early for a lot of deshi in my opinion. The bunkai was always there for us. It is in our yakusoku kumite and in our kakie etc… but this stressing of oyo lead to too much experimentation, and too much grasping at possibilities of alternative techniques. Too much talking and not enough training. Karate men started going to Jujutsu seminar in order to karate bunkai etc…... I think this is silly. If one thinks this way for instance, maybe he should be studying Jujutsu not karate.

My Sensei taught us a lot of drills. Both one man and two man drills. These all came from the kata. This was good because it made learning the kata easier, because you had already done most of the moves by time you started to do the kata. Also there was no great question as too what the bunkai was. We had generally already learned a lot of this through the drills.

When we did the kata it was for the sake of the kata. Just being in the moment. The road to Mushin is through Yushin but sometimes you just need to do it. Something I have had told me upon occasion is “Don’t ask Just do!”. Sensei was never smiling when he said this either.

Jeff said it well.

I think nowadays, no matter what school, system, ryu, art - many practitioners place their priority in what they think the product should be, and thus lose sight of the most important thing: the process.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[Gene Williams]

Ed, you are SO correct! You do the kata for the sake of the kata. I get so sick and tired of "oyo this," and "oyo that." Everybody having orgasms over so-called secret teachings. Then there is the "20 ways to do a side kick" crowd. :laugh: You learn one proper way to do a technique and you do it for years, thousands of times. That works. If you are ever attacked, you'll do just that...reflexively. I have chewed out many a student for screwing around with different "theories" on how to do a kick or punch. They NEVER do it with me in the dojo :mad: My fighting isn't very exciting. I just wait for the opportunity to stick a gyakuzuki somewhere important...that's it. Until I can do that, I just try to stay out of the way. :) As far as bunkai goes, I learned early on that one ryu's omote is another's ura, and one ryu calls oyo what another calls kihon. There is way too much talk and theory in Western karate.
You learn theory by doing the stuff. The Okinawans were never so interested in "why" something works as they were in "that" something worked.

[Black Fox]

During practice one must not think, but rather, utilize a constant ‘mindfulness’. Those who produce good technique and exhibit great ability in a fight always cultivate this to a lesser or greater degree. You refer to a basic that even mixed martial-artists utilize, not all, but, some do.

A word from your master and you do it!

So, I do my spelling with the help of Word. Does this come across a little clearer? I do need to work on waiting longer and become good at it. Patience looks like the project for me.

Thank you for the lesson. Thank you for your patience.
The man leads by example – his word I will follow and do.
This does not signal absolute loyalty, but, you gain position on my long list of teachers. I say this to honor what you learned through your lineage and personal experiences – may it carry on forever.

There exist cause for this and my saying it, I assure you.

I need to get off the computer and practice more. I will check in with you guys in a week or so. I carry illness and feel better and will take advantage of my mobility.

[CEB]

I apologize for my post. My mind works faster than my fingers and I leave out lots of words. When I read it on screen my mind thinks the words are there for some stupid reason.

The word that gets omitted and gets me in trouble sometimes is the little 3 letter word 'NOT'. I really hate it when that one gets dropped.

Thank God for secretaries.

[De_Franza]

I think nowadays, no matter what school, system, ryu, art - many practitioners place their priority in what they think the product should be, and thus lose sight of the most important thing: the process.
Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

Too true, Jeff. I havn't heard truer words in a long time.

[Bugeisha]

That's true of just about everything important in life; process over product. After all, the product you come out with at the end of your life is your death.

[muken]

I agree to much of what has been said here....so the responsibility is on all of us to show by example...
But since all of us consider ourselves "traditional"...how many of us routinely hold naifanchi/kiba dachi for 1 hour or so?
How many of us have practiced only 1 kata for 3 years before moving on to another?
If you have done these then I , and others, salute you!

Point is....we all have our "traditional" "school of hard knocks" stories
and to bemoan that the world is not as it once was is futile and boring to new martial artists.
I agree it is annoying to see people who can hardly throw a front kick (without losing balance at least) sporting more stripes than a thermometer and to see the innocent get quickly parted from their hard earned cash from some guy who has created an illusion that he is the umpteeenth generation master of the shaolin temple....but truth prevails. Keep up your solid training and your students will come to you.
Besides, who are you training for?
If you like where, what and how you are training...then who cares what others do?