Bokken Question

[semi c]

Hi,

Bought a bokken today. It came in two parts, the sword and a plastic guard.

I slid the plastic guard all the way down the sword until it was just above the handle. Now the guard is a little bent. :rolleyes:

Is this how its done or did I just screw something up :laugh: ??

[Patrick Hayes]

Yeah, that's pretty much the pattern I've seen with every bokken I've had. Bokken all vary slightly in shape and size, even if they're from the same manufacturer, but the plastic guard always seem to be identical, mass-produced items. If you can find the white plastic rubber ring that goes above the guard, it will help prevent the guard from slipping off.

[semi c]

If you can find the white plastic rubber ring that goes above the guard, it will help prevent the guard from slipping off.
I thought that was part of the packaging and I threw it away :eek:

I don't think it will slip off anyway. It was hard to put on, which is why it bent. Maybe next time I will try some lubricant to help the guard slide down better...

My shinai is also longer then my bokken (by about 2 inches). Is this how it should be?

Equipment wise, I think Kendo is a pretty hard art to get into.

[David Craik]

Usually I use a small file to get the tsuba to fit a bit better. But since you threw away the 'habaki', I'd just leave it. Your tsuba might come flying off if you adjust the hole now.

Shinai do seem to be a bit longer. I believe this is because the distance at which you intersect is longer in kendo.

[Gene Williams]

Bokken are most often used without the plastic tsuba and habaki. I think there are a couple of esoteric technique in some ryu where you leave it on. I usually throw them away. :)

[David Craik]

Depends on the ryu, I think, and what you're doing with it. Sometimes I use it and sometimes I don't. I prefer the feel of the bokken without it, but I can see it saving knuckles in kumitachi and forcing the grip to be more realistic (as if one is holding a real sword).

Although many extend the index finger past where the tsuba would be for suburi, I prefer to use the grip one would use with a shinken, and the tsuba prevents the finger from creeping out.

[semi c]

Usually I use a small file to get the tsuba to fit a bit better. That's a good idea. I think I'll buy another one and do that - have one for home use and one for the dojo/gradings.


Bokken are most often used without the plastic tsuba and habaki. I think there are a couple of esoteric technique in some ryu where you leave it on. I usually throw them away.
Not putting it on was one of my first thoughts. I know its just a cheap piece of wood but I don't know why they have a crappy little plastic guard that probably wouldn't protect you from much. I would prefer something like a built in metal guard.

[David Craik]

There are better hard leather tsuba available from such sources as http://sdksupplies.netfirms.com/cat_furtsuba.htm. They last for just about ever, and look very nice too. Fit much better aesthetically with a bokuto than plastic as well.

I got mine from Mugendobudogu, but they unfortunately seem to be out of business.

Remember that tsuba are not so much a handguard as on European swords. They are not generally used to "block" strikes, but rather to prevent slippage of the hands onto the blade during tsuki, and to protect against cuts caused by the opponent's blade sliding down your own blade onto your hands.

I cannot see the purpose for a steel or iron handguard on a bokken, though there are ryu that use heavily padded handguards for kumitachi.

[pgsmith]

Mugendo Budogu is alive and well David. Here's the site ... http://www.budogu.com/

[Neil Gendzwill]

But since you threw away the 'habaki', I'd just leave it.
That piece is called the tsuba-dome. The cheap tsuba are pretty flexy, but you can buy a better one if you like. Tsuba and tsuba-dome for bokken are available from many sources. Try e-bogu.com for a start.

[David Craik]

Mugendo Budogu is alive and well David. Here's the site ... http://www.budogu.com/

Ah..great. I remember "mugendobudogu.com" used to redirect you, but it's up for sale now. Thanks Paul.


That piece is called the tsuba-dome.

I know, but thanks. I was being a bit facetious, thus the quotation marks.

[semi c]

There are better hard leather tsuba available from such sources as http://sdksupplies.netfirms.com/cat_furtsuba.htm. They last for just about ever, and look very nice too. Fit much better aesthetically with a bokuto than plastic as well.

I got mine from Mugendobudogu, but they unfortunately seem to be out of business. Yeah, I think something like http://sdksupplies.netfirms.com/leathertsuba/Sunburstboken.jpg would be much better, I'll have a search around and find one I really like.


I cannot see the purpose for a steel or iron handguard on a bokken, though there are ryu that use heavily padded handguards for kumitachi. I just thought it would look cool :)

[David Craik]

I think Tori would be a bit unhappy at having to buy a new bokuto every week though. :)

[Erik]

This may not be the most beautiful way to do things, but you can secure your tsuba in one of the following ways, if you like:
-Epoxy it on
-Duct/Speed tape loop on the tip-side edge of the tsuba, same pattern as the little plastic bit
-Piece of string soaked in wood or white glue wrapped around a few times in the same place
-Staple or very small nails on the tip side to keep it in place

Were it mine, I would keep it on so I get used to having a guard. It's there for a reason. I'd probably just glue it on, assuming the glue would stick to both the laquer and the plastic.

Of course, this depends on your preference and your ryu.

[RickMatz]

Kushida Sensei used to say that if you don't break a bokken once a year, you arent' training hard enough.

[Gene Williams]

Repeat. In most traditional sword ryu, bokken are used without the plastic tsuba. You should hold the bokken just like you would a sword. If you would not extend your index finger down the back or side of a shinken, then you shouldn't do it on a bokken, either. Kenjutsu classes do some pretty rough bokken work, but I rarely hear of fingers getting smashed. Besides, most quality bokken don't even come with a dumb plastic tsuba. Throw it away or give it to the dog to chew (or the baby to teethe on):)

[Patrick Hayes]

Rarely hear of fingers getting smashed? Can I train with you guys? Thanks to the tsuba-dome, I still have one finger out of 10 that looks remotely like a human finger.

[Gene Williams]

Sure. C'mon and train :) I know seniors in several sword ryu and they say that smashed fingers are not that common. I have trained pretty vigorously with bokken and have been hit on the hand more than on the fingers. Tsuba wouldn't prevent that, anyway.

[David Craik]

Besides, most quality bokken don't even come with a dumb plastic tsuba. Throw it away or give it to the dog to chew (or the baby to teethe on):)

Hmm...my shiro kashi bokken I have ordered from Japan all have come with a plastic tsuba and tsubadome, and while not extremely expensive like ones of Ipe or Lignum Vitae they are pretty much the standard and of high quality.

A number of practicioners do extend the finger, as well as curl the pinky below the tsukagashira during suburi - a practice that will rub the skin straight off of the inside of your pinky if done with a shinken. But, it is accepted...it is even shown as the correct way in Dave Lowry's book "Bokken".

Funny that you mention the dog though..I had a beagle that loved them, and resulted in the purchase of my first bokken case.

[Charles Mahan]

Repeat. In most traditional sword ryu, bokken are used without the plastic tsuba.

Well MJER must be different than most. We make great use of our tsuba. Without it I'd have been pretty smashed up on multiple occasions. Not just my fingers either.

[Gene Williams]

Maybe I am getting bad information. But, I have ordered a number of bokken from several places and the only ones that have come with tsuba are the cheap ones from run of the mill catalogs. HOWEVER, I mainly practice iaido and the bokken stuff I do is usually two man kata and kiri gaeshi. I am doing the Omori ryu and Eishin ryu iai kata. My sword buddies are in Mugai ryu and
Itto ryu. Maybe they are different. Sorry :bow:

[Charles Mahan]

The waza I am thinking of are in Tachi Uchi no Kurai, one of the kumitachi sets.

[Gene Williams]

That is not one that I am familiar with. Thanks.

[Charles Mahan]

It's the two man stuff in MJER.

[David Craik]

I don't get the crappy pseudo-aka kashi bokken like from Century, AMA, and the like. The good MA shops in Japan I visited would wrap up a plastic tsuba and tsuba-dome with your bokuto and include it. Even with expensive Sunuke or Biwa they would put it in the bag all wrapped in paper by itself.

They also had nice leather ones, but you had to buy them separately and were pretty expensive.

The Tachi Uchi no Kurai contains 10 kata (or waza), and tsuba are commonly used.

[Gene Williams]

I learned 11 tachi no kata. The worst knuckle buster is aiki dome. The bokken I use are 47 inches long and are Japanese white oak. I get them from several different places and they never come with tsuba. I am going to order one from Crane Mountain soon, and I want to get a bokken from the Bokken Shop just to see what they are like. My bokken eats those little red oak thingies people buy from Century, etc.

[David Craik]

shiro kashi = Japanese White Oak. Where do you get these that don't come with tsuba, Gene?

Those from Century, etc, are commonly made in Taiwan of a poor wood not resembling Japanese Aka Kashi at all. Lousy grain, poorly balanced, and very weak.

[Gene Williams]

I have had them special ordered from East Coast Martial Arts in Orlando. My senior student does most of the ordering now, and I think he has a new source. I'll call him and post it.

[David Craik]

If I remember correctly, ECMAS helps sponsor the Orlando Tai Kai (can't find my programme from the last one I attended). Not familar with their products though.

I don't doubt you Gene, and it's not really important. It's just that I have received bokken from many quality suppliers like BuJin and Mugendo Budogu and they came with tsuba, so it's inclusion is not neccesarily an indication of a poor bokuto. A lot of folk use them.

[Gene Williams]

That's right, they do sponsor it. I've been to two of them. They are heavy on cutting competition. Lots of good stuff.

[David Craik]

Last one I made was in 2003. Great stuff, and the party at the hotel afterward with Big Tony Alvarez presiding over the hot tub (in a multi-colored wig, no less) was a riot too. A lot of great names in kenjutsu there...but the Japanese guests did not attend afterward because somehow they wound up in the pool the previous year :up:.

Some outstanding cutting. Even with a badly hurt shoulder, Tony is like a human chainsaw ("Big" Tony is an understatement...the guy may be one of the biggest humans I have ever seen, and strong as an elephant), and an older lady whose name I don't recall displayed a kime during her waza (think she was MJER) that was incredible. Even my wife who has no interest in such things found it fascinating, and was hugely impressed with how nice everyone was toward her. Great bunch of people, and I will always appreciate their hospitality.

Guess we're getting off-topic a bit. :)

[Charles Mahan]

The Tachi Uchi no Kurai set that I'm familiar with includes 7 waza. I know the seitokai uses a smaller set than the Jikishinkai. Perhaps that's the difference we're talking about here. Of course we have another set of standing kumitachi that I haven't seen yet. Perhaps the missing waza in Tachi Uchi no Kurai are in there.

Duh. Sorry Gene. Thought you said Tachi Uchi waza. Just realized it was Tachi kata. I was wondering why the term Aiki was showing up in MJER kata names.

[Gene Williams]

Let's see: Ki Musubi, Irimi Ho, Kokyu Ho, Gyaku To, Aiki Dome, Hito e Mi, Shiho Giri, Uke Nagashi. Some of these go by other names, too. Those are the Tachi kata I learned.

[Charles Mahan]

Are those MJER kata?

[Gene Williams]

No, I don't think so. I learned them from Mugai ryu and from a friend in Muso Shinden ryu. My understanding is that most of these are found in many ryu, with some variations, and that occasionally the names are different. I mainly stick to the iai of the Omori ryu and Eishin ryu, because that is what I have been doing the longest. I'm really not a swordsman, so I don't know enough of the traditions to talk with you intelligently. I usually avoid sword forums because I don't want to be presumptuous. I do practice iai do regularly and get all the help I can from my more accomplished friends. I have not had a sensei for a long time now.

[pgsmith]

I learned them from Mugai ryu and from a friend in Muso Shinden ryu.
You should make a point to get to the Tai Kai Gene. There are seminars in both Mugai ryu and Muso Shinden ryu on Friday. Not to mention Saturday night is always a good time! :)

[Gene Williams]

As of now, I am planning to be there :)

[pgsmith]

Great!
I will probably be in the hotel bar on Friday night. I'll buy you a beer!

[John Lucas]

I have a 12 dollar bokken that I bought, ironically enough from a Head shop. I dont practice any Japanese sword arts I am just extremely interested in them and the culture.

The bokken has served decently, I cracked it the first day against a tree, because I wanted to see just how strong it was (The store owner promised me it was solid oak.)
It still functions though, a splash of 2-part epoxy and now you cant even tell that it was ever cracked.

I recently had the chance to hold a bokken that my friends brother-in-law got from Osensei in Okinawa (I am sorry if I spelled that wrong, I just know how its said.) and it appears to be hand-carved from some kind of cherry or other dark wood. The difference is extremely noticable, the Real bokken is about twice as heavy and when the two made contact it left a giant dent in the edge of mine and didnt even mark his.

[total-immortal]

The pain you can go through when you have no tsuba...I've had friends practice and get hit in the knuckles, fracture them, burst the blood vessels in them, have them swell up terribly bad...

I took mine off...Kind of a mistake I've gotten hit many times that would have been preventable if I left it on...Oh well.

[Gene Williams]

If you are getting your hands busted that much there is the slightest chance that you are doing something wrong. :D

[total-immortal]

Thats true, we were doing many things wrong but I finally found a proffesional teacher of JSA in the city thanks to the people of this board so all I have to do is wait for my wrist to heal and inquire about the classes. :D

[John Lucas]

I took mine off also, but because it made it look cheaper and trashier than it already did, and I have to agree that knuckle shots are horrible. I dont even spar regularly with it, but every time I do the hand shot is inevitable. Teaches me not to drop my gaurd or take wild swings.

[Ron Tisdale]

Is anyone else wondering if practicing with an epoxied bokken is safe?

Best,
Ron

[pgsmith]

Is anyone else wondering if practicing with an epoxied bokken is safe?
Ron,
No, practicing with an epoxied bokken is NOT safe. Once its integrity has been compromised, it is not allowed back into use in my dojo. However from the original statement ...
I cracked it the first day against a tree, because I wanted to see just how strong it was ... it is pretty obvious that he is not practicing, but just playing with his friends, and that is much more dangerous than practicing with an epoxied bokken. Be careful out there Dave!

[loppy]

can i ask a stupid question ? What is a bokken?? A fan?? and what is epoxied?

[David Craik]

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=bokken

also is the FAQ:

http://pub38.bravenet.com/faq/show.php?usernum=3254125796&keywords=bokken#q2

[pgsmith]

And epoxy is a two part resin glue. When we mentioned an epoxied bokken, it means that he cracked his wooden practice sword and glued it back together with epoxy resin.

[John Lucas]

Man I dont know, I have seen people use this stuff to glue a bowling ball to the cieling before, If you get the stuff on your skin good luck getting it off, it forms a chemical bond.

However, I dont make contact with the bokken anymore, and I am looking to buy a new one of higher quality and weight before I do anything like that again. The Tree was pretty stupid in retrospect, but I didnt swing it that hard, I just couldnt believe that a 12 dollar bokken would hold up to repeated blows, especially from a superior bokken, so I was glad that it snapped on the tree and not at a more crucial moment.
Given the option, of course I would prefer to have an instructor and high quality equipment, but I dont have the money for either of those at the moment, so I am doing what I can on my own. Sure there is a risk, but to me its worth it.

Also keep in mind that I am using the bokken more as a way to strengthen my grip and forearms, than to actually learn to fight with a sword, I am not one of those that is so dilluted that they think they are actually going to engage in sword to sword combat one day, I just think its thrilling and I enjoy the culture and history. To me it is nearly impossible to imagine what it must have been like to stare your opponent down face to face and know that the slightest mistake you make could result in you being gruesomely hacked to pieces. Not to belittle modern combat, but its different when you have to think about who the person is and you cant just mow them down from 30 yards away, Its no less difficult or tragic, but it is a different kind of intensity when you see the "Whites of his eyes" every time.

[Gene Williams]

Dave, If you want to pm me and tell me where in Ga. you are, I might could point you to an instructor who will work with you. I think you are drifting with too many options. You will hurt yourself using an epoxied bokken, no matter how strong the glue. If it is really strong, the thing will just break somewhere else if you go banging it on things.

[loppy]

Why don't you write so Bokken with superglue. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: