HapKiDo Cane Techniques

[Joehkd]

Hello everyone,
I have been trying to find any history on how did the cane was introduced to HapKiDo? I hope that I can get some help with this question. Sorry if this has been asked before. :bow:
Thank you,

[Michael Tomlinson]

Joe,
I once asked Doju Nim Ji Han Jae how the cane became part of Hapkido and he told me directly that he put the very first cane techniques into Hapkido. Well I'm gonna take his word on that one because I respect his techniques and history of Hapkido.
Michael Tomlinson

[Joehkd]

Thank you for your reply Mr. Tomlinson.
I had read before that Doju Nim Ji Han Jae was the person responsible for adding cane to Hapkido. But I wanted to see if there were more to the story since and I'm sorry to say Hapkido has many unpredictable stories on who did what this wonderful Martial Art.
Thank you :bow:

[Michael Tomlinson]

Boy ain't that the truth. It's funny because we "as a community" get along on the mat with courtesy, respect, etc. But when it comes to discussing history and who did what first we all get crazy.... ha ha.. I've decided that there are three things you can never discus with people because arguements are sure to ensue...
1. religion
2. politics
3. hapkido history... :laugh:

Michael Tomlinson

[American HKD]

Boy ain't that the truth. It's funny because we "as a community" get along on the mat with courtesy, respect, etc. But when it comes to discussing history and who did what first we all get crazy.... ha ha.. I've decided that there are three things you can never discus with people because arguements are sure to ensue...
1. religion
2. politics
3. hapkido history... :laugh:

Michael Tomlinson

I always got along great with everyone on the mat, but politics is a joke. :laugh:

[ushankido]

Boy ain't that the truth. It's funny because we "as a community" get along on the mat with courtesy, respect, etc. But when it comes to discussing history and who did what first we all get crazy.... ha ha.. I've decided that there are three things you can never discus with people because arguements are sure to ensue...
1. religion
2. politics
3. hapkido history... :laugh:

Michael Tomlinson

I agree with you. People will always have their own opinion.

[Joehkd]

All of you are right on the money with that. :D It is better to roll on the mat and forget all the politics and who did what in Hapkido. :burn: Sorry if I offend anyone but the truth is less talking and lets have more fun on the mats. :bow:
Thanks for your comments

[jrhilland]

Hello everyone,
I have been trying to find any history on how did the cane was introduced to HapKiDo? I hope that I can get some help with this question. Sorry if this has been asked before. :bow:
Thank you,

The "Hapkido" cane is an old farm implement used to herd animals and its' use as a weapon dates back much further than the art of Hapkido.

[American HKD]

The "Hapkido" cane is an old farm implement used to herd animals and its' use as a weapon dates back much further than the art of Hapkido.

I know in Scotland the cane was a shepard's tool are you saying also in Asia.

Also the shepard's hook was much bigger and longer?

[Joehkd]

Thank You Master Hilland and Master Rosenberg for your replies :bow: ,
All this is very interesting. I just wanted to know more about the HapKiDo weapon that I like the most and also to be able to answer any question to my students.
Thank you :D

[jrhilland]

I know in Scotland the cane was a shepard's tool are you saying also in Asia.

Also the shepard's hook was much bigger and longer?

Can't say, I am quoting my teacher, Master West. But the similarities are there.

[Mixmastersenior]

Check out this link. Very interesting information on self defense with the cane or walking stick from turn of the century Europe.

http://ejmas.com/jnc/jncart_barton-wright_0200.htm

[DragonMind]

Also the shepard's hook was much bigger and longer?
A shepherd's hook is typically up to six feet in length. European canes were traditionally walking sticks (without the crook) and their techniques were largely patterned after sword/fencing. As I understand it, GM Ji is the one who introduced the modern walking cane into Hapkido, though there have been stick techniques in martial arts ever since Moog hit Oog with one running from the sabre-tooth tigers.

[Michael Tomlinson]

Barry that's very true,, I jog a lot and it is funny when you carry a long "stick" with you when you jog dogs and other such animals have a different mind set about them when you encounter them. I have noticed this when I jog in the woods down some old dirt roads here in Florida. I have actually thought about this while jogging. There seems to be some primal connection with that stick when they see you carrying it and they mostly stay away from you a little more I have noticed.
Michael Tomlinson

[jrhilland]

Ji's claim that he brought the cane into hapkido is very suspect. Nevertheless, A hapkido cane has a larger hook than a normal cane, A shepherd's hook has the large hook. The length has always varied as they were hand made through the ages. Canes of old, did not have hooks. Those that did had very small ones. In other words, the hapkido cane did not evolve from a cane but from the Asian version of a shepherd's hook.

[Todd]

Ji's claim that he brought the cane into hapkido is very suspect. Nevertheless, A hapkido cane has a larger hook than a normal cane, A shepherd's hook has the large hook. The length has always varied as they were hand made through the ages. Canes of old, did not have hooks. Those that did had very small ones. In other words, the hapkido cane did not evolve from a cane but from the Asian version of a shepherd's hook.

Not that it matters very much but Doju Nim Choi, Yong Sul introduced the cane as a weapon in Hapkido. I think GM Ji added his own flavor with lots of fancy throwing and locking techniques.

You can read the interview I did with GM Lim, Hyun Soo on my web page:
www.millersmudo.com
or read the interview in the May issue of TKD Times.

Take care

[Michael Tomlinson]

Actually Ji Han Jae's cane is very pragmatic and simple. One thing for instance he does that I NEVER see anyone else do is make sure that EVERY technique you do with a cane is started from the simple walking stance with your hand on the top of the cane exactly like you would have it if you were walking with it. If you don't practice your cane techniques from this position only then what are you really doing?? I tell you what your doing, fooling yourself. He NEVER lets you do a technique with your hand or stance starting in any other fashion. He says you must learn to do the cane exactly like you are walking with it. Pretty simple but very hard to master. Also he doesn't like people to use a large hooked cane. He says just use a simple small hooked cane!! When he sees someone grab the cane lower on the shaft to start with he stops you and says how are you gonna use the cane like that? If you walk around holding your cane in that manner he says you are a crazy man. He also has 7 initial strikes that you learn first with the cane. They are also very simple and not flashy at all. EVERY technique hinges off of these 7 strikes. If you go easier with the strikes they become the initial defensive blocking or deflecting techniques. These strikes are very good. Also I can tell by watching any master using a cane if they have studied with Ji Han Jae or were taught his basics through someone else. On the strikes he always has the hook locked in against the wrist. If you don't do this during a strike "well" it ain't as effective. And I would say 85 percent of the people I've ever seen use a cane don't even know about this much less practice it. This is also a trademark of his cane techniques. Bottom line guys is this. I personally don't know if GM Ji put the cane in Hapkido. I wasn't there. But I was there when he told me personally that he did, while we were working out for ten straight hours. I have seen some very good cane techniques in my day,Black belts from every organization from the AHA, WHF, KHA, KHF, ICHF, Shueys stuff, GM West's org, Bong Soo Hans org, Jang Mu Won and many many more BUT no one I have ever observed has the understanding, pragmatic approach, or usable technique that GM Ji has plain and simple. His cane work is a complete system within itself...and a lot of fun.

I participated in a Hapkido demo a few years back with Master Nabors at the Florida State Fairgrounds in Tampa. Master Nabors gave a cane demo that was incredible. It was funny because there was no large circular movements and every technique he did started from him just walking with the cane. There was no techniques like in Han Mu Do where the cane is already out in front of you in an offensive manner. He was just walking along with the cane and as soon as someone grabbed, punched, kicked etc. it was like they were sucked in to this vacum and were spit out on the ground very close to him. He actually moved very little and his expression on his face never changed. No screaming, horse stances or twirling the cane. No initial defensive jocking with the cane at all, just pure Sin Moo Hapkido technique. It was awesome and I remember watching and thinking wow these thousands of people in the audience don't even know what they are seeing. or not seeing. Good cane is quick simple and devastating and it don't look like you are sparring with a guy who front kicks and then punches at you while you hold the cane by the shaft out in front of you IMHO.
Michael Tomlinson :bow:

[American HKD]

Actually Ji Han Jae's cane is very pragmatic and simple. One thing for instance he does that I NEVER see anyone else do is make sure that EVERY technique you do with a cane is started from the simple walking stance with your hand on the top of the cane exactly like you would have it if you were walking with it. If you don't practice your cane techniques from this position only then what are you really doing?? I tell you what your doing, fooling yourself. He NEVER lets you do a technique with your hand or stance starting in any other fashion. He says you must learn to do the cane exactly like you are walking with it. Pretty simple but very hard to master. Also he doesn't like people to use a large hooked cane. He says just use a simple small hooked cane!! When he sees someone grab the cane lower on the shaft to start with he stops you and says how are you gonna use the cane like that? If you walk around holding your cane in that manner he says you are a crazy man. He also has 7 initial strikes that you learn first with the cane. They are also very simple and not flashy at all. EVERY technique hinges off of these 7 strikes. If you go easier with the strikes they become the initial defensive blocking or deflecting techniques. These strikes are very good. Also I can tell by watching any master using a cane if they have studied with Ji Han Jae or were taught his basics through someone else. On the strikes he always has the hook locked in against the wrist. If you don't do this during a strike "well" it ain't as effective. And I would say 85 percent of the people I've ever seen use a cane don't even know about this much less practice it. This is also a trademark of his cane techniques. Bottom line guys is this. I personally don't know if GM Ji put the cane in Hapkido. I wasn't there. But I was there when he told me personally that he did, while we were working out for ten straight hours. I have seen some very good cane techniques in my day,Black belts from every organization from the AHA, WHF, KHA, KHF, ICHF, Shueys stuff, GM West's org, Bong Soo Hans org, Jang Mu Won and many many more BUT no one I have ever observed has the understanding, pragmatic approach, or usable technique that GM Ji has plain and simple. His cane work is a complete system within itself...and a lot of fun.

I participated in a Hapkido demo a few years back with Master Nabors at the Florida State Fairgrounds in Tampa. Master Nabors gave a cane demo that was incredible. It was funny because there was no large circular movements and every technique he did started from him just walking with the cane. There was no techniques like in Han Mu Do where the cane is already out in front of you in an offensive manner. He was just walking along with the cane and as soon as someone grabbed, punched, kicked etc. it was like they were sucked in to this vacum and were spit out on the ground very close to him. He actually moved very little and his expression on his face never changed. No screaming, horse stances or twirling the cane. No initial defensive jocking with the cane at all, just pure Sin Moo Hapkido technique. It was awesome and I remember watching and thinking wow these thousands of people in the audience don't even know what they are seeing. or not seeing. Good cane is quick simple and devastating and it don't look like you are sparring with a guy who front kicks and then punches at you while you hold the cane by the shaft out in front of you IMHO.
Michael Tomlinson :bow:


Greetings,

I agree with Mike's accessment, I learned the same thing from Master Ji. Even in books few people use the cane like Ji, however the more I train with Ji the more I notice Hwang Sik Myung techs are very close to Ji's his cane tech's as well.

I never saw Jung Ki Kwans cane techs. so I can't comment on how they use it. If it's the same as Ji's tech. maybe there's some truth to say that Choi introduced it, if it's different than Ji's tech. it's safe to say Ji developed the cane on his own.

I also re-read that article this weekend and it's seems that the bulk of Master Lim's training was from a senior student of Choi, Choi gave him some private lessons along the way but it's unclear as to how long he was a direct student of Choi.

This is not a criticism just looking for clear answers.

[jrhilland]

Not that it matters very much but Doju Nim Choi, Yong Sul introduced the cane as a weapon in Hapkido. I think GM Ji added his own flavor with lots of fancy throwing and locking techniques.

You can read the interview I did with GM Lim, Hyun Soo on my web page:
www.millersmudo.com
or read the interview in the May issue of TKD Times.

Take care
Well said. Everyone who touches the art will have his or her own flavor.

[Michael Tomlinson]

Stuart,
You hit the nail on the head bro, I was gonna put in my post that Kwang Sik Myung's cane is close to Ji's techniques but I left it out. Funny how Kwang Sik Myung came from Ji and kept his cane techniques. His cane placement while he walks and strikes with the cane is obviously from GM Ji's techniques. I am like you and I noticed that right away.
Michael Tomlinson :)

[DragonMind]

Michael,

Your earlier post got me thinking about something with a cane. How you walk with one varies depending on whether you need it for weight support or not. Are GM Ji's techniques dependant on the weight shift necessary if you are using it for support?

I'm not trying to be argumentative, just curious. Since I don't use it for support but carry a cane every day, my grip on it changes several times an hour just to put my hand in different positions for comfort. I work techniques off of every hand position I typically carry it in.

[Michael Tomlinson]

Barry,
I get what your saying bro. See if I can make some sense of this...GM Ji's idea of the cane is that you walk with it with your hand on top of the curved section while you are actually using it during your walking, no hidden agenda, just walking. So you learn to "perform" every technique starting from the basic stance that almost everyone on the planet has when they are walking down the street with the cane and are actually using it in a functional environment and not just disguising themselves as a martial artist with a cane. If you catch my drift. I see some people hold a cane in public and it is obvious that it is not a walking device but a weapon being disguised as a walking device. GM Ji's idea is that a cane is just a cane and you use it as a cane first and a weapon second. So you learn to snap in to the weapon mode with your cane from just being relaxed and walking with your cane like every other normal person you see walking with the cane. In other words he doesn't believe in going into a "pre" mode with your cane defense, you are ALWAYS in that mode because of the way you learn it in the beginning. Whether you grip it hard or soft or put a lot of your weight on the cane or very little is up to you. We always start every technique by standing with the cane at our side with our hand on top of the cane and very relaxed at our side "exactly like you have it when you are using it as a cane to walk with". All the striking and techniques start from this position. I don't know if this helps but if it doesn't ask away bro...no problem...learning and sharing is what it's all about in my book...
Mike :)

[Erik]

Hi Guys,

Why is it that in Hapkido, TKD, and some of the Korean MAs there is so much argument about who did what, when, where and why? I don't get why it is so important.

At least, this is how I see it. I could simply not understand it.

Why not just focus on getting the techniques to work well for you (or me, or anyone) and not worry about things that happened before you were born?

Please don't take this the wrong way - I'm not trying to pick on anyone's MA or MA culture, I'm just trying to understand something I really don't get.

[DragonMind]

Hi Guys,

Why is it that in Hapkido, TKD, and some of the Korean MAs there is so much argument about who did what, when, where and why? I don't get why it is so important.
Simple answer: BD Theory (George Carlin)

[jrhilland]

Hi Guys,

Why is it that in Hapkido, TKD, and some of the Korean MAs there is so much argument about who did what, when, where and why? I don't get why it is so important.

At least, this is how I see it. I could simply not understand it.

Why not just focus on getting the techniques to work well for you (or me, or anyone) and not worry about things that happened before you were born?

Please don't take this the wrong way - I'm not trying to pick on anyone's MA or MA culture, I'm just trying to understand something I really don't get.

We do practice technique, in the dojang. But this is a discussion board. Although I only practice hapkido, it is not just in the KMAs, although the KMAs does have its share of problems. For example, several people came out after Choi died stating that they founded hapkido or they added this part or that part. I am not sure why. Personally, this did not happen before I was born. In fact, a lot of it happened after I started hapkido 31 years ago.

[DragonMind]

Barry,
I get what your saying bro. See if I can make some sense of this...GM Ji's idea of the cane is that you walk with it with your hand on top of the curved section while you are actually using it during your walking, no hidden agenda, just walking. So you learn to "perform" every technique starting from the basic stance that almost everyone on the planet has when they are walking down the street with the cane and are actually using it in a functional environment and not just disguising themselves as a martial artist with a cane. If you catch my drift. I see some people hold a cane in public and it is obvious that it is not a walking device but a weapon being disguised as a walking device. GM Ji's idea is that a cane is just a cane and you use it as a cane first and a weapon second. So you learn to snap in to the weapon mode with your cane from just being relaxed and walking with your cane like every other normal person you see walking with the cane. In other words he doesn't believe in going into a "pre" mode with your cane defense, you are ALWAYS in that mode because of the way you learn it in the beginning. Whether you grip it hard or soft or put a lot of your weight on the cane or very little is up to you. We always start every technique by standing with the cane at our side with our hand on top of the cane and very relaxed at our side "exactly like you have it when you are using it as a cane to walk with". All the striking and techniques start from this position. I don't know if this helps but if it doesn't ask away bro...no problem...learning and sharing is what it's all about in my book...
Mike :)
OK, I follow that. Because of strain on the wrist when using it as a true support device, I found that I would often reverse the crook (pointing forward) to change the pressure spots or angle of my wrist. One thing I noticed though, is that many techniques would not work when I needed the cane for support and just picked it up to use in "weapons mode". Either I lost my balance or the required shift in weight balance took away an assumed support for the technique and it lost power (think of the kicking power you'd have balanced on a high wire on one leg). I've noticed a lot of cane guys really have no appreciation of what changes when you actually need the cane for support. What's been your take on that?

Second question, does GM Ji do cane techniques from the ground? When you actually need the cane to walk, the only way to bring it to bear as a weapon is often by sitting down!

[Michael Tomlinson]

Barry,
All the seven strikes start with the cane being turned a certain way at the same nanosecond that you swing the cane to it's target,this aligns the cane up for each strike and also gets you that whipping effect that really puts the power in it. I know what you mean about using the cane for real. My knee gets MRI''d wed. for some old astro turf injuries from many many moons ago.. and we have a somewhat joking but somewhat true statement that the reason that a cane is a Hapkido weapon is because the longer you practice Hapkido the more likely you will end up using one for real!!! That seems to be my take on it anyway.

On the second item about ground techniques with a cane. We don't have a set curriculum from the ground with a cane but many techniques work the same way. One thing I have found though is that using a medium to long range weapon in a grappling situation can put you in a precarious position. BUT we do have quite a few choking techniques with the cane that work well and are very dangerous. Some of the seven strikes work very well also while being seated. Stuart probably knows the numbers and can echo this. I can use technique..1. 2. 4. 5. and 7 from a seated position with no problem.

Mike

[American HKD]

Barry,
All the seven strikes start with the cane being turned a certain way at the same nanosecond that you swing the cane to it's target,this aligns the cane up for each strike and also gets you that whipping effect that really puts the power in it. I know what you mean about using the cane for real. My knee gets MRI''d wed. for some old astro turf injuries from many many moons ago.. and we have a somewhat joking but somewhat true statement that the reason that a cane is a Hapkido weapon is because the longer you practice Hapkido the more likely you will end up using one for real!!! That seems to be my take on it anyway.

On the second item about ground techniques with a cane. We don't have a set curriculum from the ground with a cane but many techniques work the same way. One thing I have found though is that using a medium to long range weapon in a grappling situation can put you in a precarious position. BUT we do have quite a few choking techniques with the cane that work well and are very dangerous. Some of the seven strikes work very well also while being seated. Stuart probably knows the numbers and can echo this. I can use technique..1. 2. 4. 5. and 7 from a seated position with no problem.

Mike


Greetings,

I never tried to use the cane from the ground, I would rather have the Dan Bong down there, it will work great.

[DragonMind]

Mike,

I see what your saying, but you didn't quite answer the balance question. I have a drill I've used with people who don't use a cane for real. Take a strap and tie both ankles together. Then put your weight on the cane for real. Now defend yourself. See how it changes your balance, timing, power, etc.

Stuart,

Personally I'd like a 45 ACP and a 9" blade :laugh: , but when you use a cane for real, you'll often wind up on the ground with your cane or nothing. I do drills on the ground against standing attackers as well as grappling.

[American HKD]

Mike,

I see what your saying, but you didn't quite answer the balance question. I have a drill I've used with people who don't use a cane for real. Take a strap and tie both ankles together. Then put your weight on the cane for real. Now defend yourself. See how it changes your balance, timing, power, etc.

Stuart,

Personally I'd like a 45 ACP and a 9" blade :laugh: , but when you use a cane for real, you'll often wind up on the ground with your cane or nothing. I do drills on the ground against standing attackers as well as grappling.


Barry

1. Why do you wind up on the ground when you use a cane?
2. What type of ground can drills do you do?

[Michael Tomlinson]

Barry writes:

I see what your saying, but you didn't quite answer the balance question. I have a drill I've used with people who don't use a cane for real. Take a strap and tie both ankles together. Then put your weight on the cane for real. Now defend yourself. See how it changes your balance, timing, power, etc.>>

I get your point Barry, how far apart do you strap the ankles? If you can put most of your weight on one leg you can do most of the cane strikes with no problem. If you can't put any weight at all on one of your legs because it is injured that bad then my suggestion would be to walk with a crutch until you get better, enough to use a cane. My point is that IF you are that injured you shouldn't even be using a cane but something more substantial. A cane is not meant to walk with if you are in so much pain that you can't balance yourself at all without it. IMHO you would need a crutch at that point. If you are that bad off then a cane would actually be dangerous to use, heck you would be way to susceptable to falling. Also at that point I would recommend a Glock 26 or 27 to go along with the crutch!!
Mike ;)

[DragonMind]

1. Why do you wind up on the ground when you use a cane?
Not trying to be facetious, balancing on one leg doesn't usually last very long in a fight. People who don't use a cane for real don't understand this because their body doesn't have to compensate for the missing support. They have two good legs and shift balance automatically. That's why I tie the ankles together to simulate an inability to use that second leg as support.


2. What type of ground can drills do you do?
We start with the easier concepts via scenarios. Cane user has been tripped/knocked over and is sitting on the ground facing a standing attacker. Standard issues of body positioning, mobility, ranges, defensive techniques. Then we move to grappling style drills, e.g. escapes from various mount positions, body control, finishing techniques, etc. Finally we go to starting from a standing position to full takedown and ground work. For advanced students we introduce attacker with a weapon as well (usually a blade). Does that help?

[DragonMind]

I get your point Barry, how far apart do you strap the ankles? If you can put most of your weight on one leg you can do most of the cane strikes with no problem. If you can't put any weight at all on one of your legs because it is injured that bad then my suggestion would be to walk with a crutch until you get better, enough to use a cane. My point is that IF you are that injured you shouldn't even be using a cane but something more substantial. A cane is not meant to walk with if you are in so much pain that you can't balance yourself at all without it. IMHO you would need a crutch at that point. If you are that bad off then a cane would actually be dangerous to use, heck you would be way to susceptable to falling. Also at that point I would recommend a Glock 26 or 27 to go along with the crutch!!
Mike ;)
I strap them side by side. Instead of injury and pain, think age and strength. Many older (than you and me) folks need a cane for everyday mobility and unfortunately are also at higher risk of being a victim of assault. The techniques you're describing are great and if they are similar to what I've seen of Myung's techniques I have a fair idea of how they're executed. That's how I was initially trained as well. What I found was that for particular situations, they weren't effective due to body limitations of the user. So, I've been experimenting to find things that do work in those scenarios. I had to overcome that what I thought would work for someone in that situation didn't mean it actually would as I discovered when I found myself in that situation for real.

Given my choice, a nice Glock or Sig would make a fine choice, but I can always carry a cane when I can't have one of those. I rarely carry a firearm but I almost always have a cane, 2-3 blades and a dulo-dulo on me. Airports are the only place the blades have been a problem so I still have my cane for most of what I need and the dulo-dulo for when it gets real up close and personal. :laugh:

[American HKD]

Greetings,

I don't actually think the "cane" was ever developed for old people or handy capped people to use as a weapon period!

I think it was developed for middle age folks to carry a "legal weapon" and get away with it. That's why HKD has no tech. or training to use the weapon as you're saying with one leg tied to the other etc.

It's good that you do that type of training but somewhat ridiculus due to the fact that anyone with a bag leg is going have a hard time regardless of any weapon they use club, stick, knife, broom, whatever.

If you can't move and keep your balance/power base nothing much will help in a violent encounter.

[sidekick]

OK, the obvious question. What is/are the real benefit(s) of weapons training, if you - 1) Can't legally carry said weapon - 2) If said weapon is used, you stand the chance of legal and civil actions. (NOTE) This also applies to the cane. If you have no medical reason for using a cane, then if you carry and use it, you will find yourself in serious trouble, at least here in the U.S. Perhaps it's my LE background, but I've always had a very hard time justifying expending lots of training time on something I can't or won't use.


Mike Dunn

[DragonMind]

I don't actually think the "cane" was ever developed for old people or handy capped people to use as a weapon period!
From a purely weapons training perspective maybe so, but since they are more likely to be a victim than your typical HKD practitioner, wouldn't it make sense to show them how to use it should they be attacked?


It's good that you do that type of training but somewhat ridiculus due to the fact that anyone with a bag leg is going have a hard time regardless of any weapon they use club, stick, knife, broom, whatever.

If you can't move and keep your balance/power base nothing much will help in a violent encounter.
Just because they have a bad leg, they shouldn't be told to just stay a victim. I focus on maximizing what they do have instead of worrying about what they don't have.

BJJ has done a good job of showing how much you can do on the ground without resorting to power. Couple that with most people don't know what to do on the ground (including attackers). Add a big stick to that equation and you've given that handicapped individual a fighting chance. I don't think that is ridiculous at all.

[DragonMind]

OK, the obvious question. What is/are the real benefit(s) of weapons training, if you - 1) Can't legally carry said weapon - 2) If said weapon is used, you stand the chance of legal and civil actions. (NOTE) This also applies to the cane. If you have no medical reason for using a cane, then if you carry and use it, you will find yourself in serious trouble, at least here in the U.S. Perhaps it's my LE background, but I've always had a very hard time justifying expending lots of training time on something I can't or won't use.


Mike Dunn
It's a trade off of risk. I'll accept the risk of court over the risk of having nothing to defend myself with. At times, my cane may be a weapon of opportunity, but that holds just as true for grabbing anything in the environment. Even more important is my cane has been a useful deterrent on more than one occasion. That also has value. As I mentioned to Stuart, I also believe in showing people who must carry one, how they can use what they carry anyway.

[American HKD]

OK, the obvious question. What is/are the real benefit(s) of weapons training, if you - 1) Can't legally carry said weapon - 2) If said weapon is used, you stand the chance of legal and civil actions. (NOTE) This also applies to the cane. If you have no medical reason for using a cane, then if you carry and use it, you will find yourself in serious trouble, at least here in the U.S. Perhaps it's my LE background, but I've always had a very hard time justifying expending lots of training time on something I can't or won't use.


Mike Dunn

Greetings

Hey Mike hows it going.

It's like this IMO. A cane is legal you don't have to prove the need to carry it you can simply say my leg hurts it stablizes my balance etc., or go to your doctor and report that you leg hurts just so it's on your chart you need a cane on occasion.

Weapons training is very important all HKD weapons can be improvised with common objects, also you need to know weapons defense etc.

So I feel the more weapons you do the more you can improvise. HKD has the best combo of weapons for all occasions.

knife
short staff
cane
long staff
sword
belt

It's all here for improvising any type of common object into a real weapon.

[American HKD]

From a purely weapons training perspective maybe so, but since they are more likely to be a victim than your typical HKD practitioner, wouldn't it make sense to show them how to use it should they be attacked?


Just because they have a bad leg, they shouldn't be told to just stay a victim. I focus on maximizing what they do have instead of worrying about what they don't have.

BJJ has done a good job of showing how much you can do on the ground without resorting to power. Couple that with most people don't know what to do on the ground (including attackers). Add a big stick to that equation and you've given that handicapped individual a fighting chance. I don't think that is ridiculous at all.

Barry

I'm not saying any handycapped person should play a victim, but I am saying
they'll have a extra hard time in reality.

Two street wise teens won't have much trouble taking Gramdpa's wallet even if he knows a little cane tech.

[Michael Tomlinson]

I for one will NEVER ever buy a Sig. Two reasons:
1. I was at a IDPA shooting practice a few years back and one of the guys carrying a Sig and shooting it with us actually broke the top part of the Sig off. He finished the shooting by using the top part of his buddies Sig on his frame??? Shouldn't ever happen..

2. About a month ago I was shooting at the range and started talking to one of the shooters next to me. He told me he had bought a new Sig 226 and had to send it back to be fixed because the FRONT SITE FELL OFF OF IT!! and one of the internal pins also broke on the thing!!!! My only two experiences around Sigs and that's what I saw and heard....nope I don't want one..period.
Mike

[sidekick]

Greetings

Hey Mike hows it going

Things are going OK, thanks for asking Stuart. As for HKD having a good all around weapons training core, I agree to a point. Learning how to make/use everyday items as weapons is smart training and yes I agree with Barry as to the risk of court as opposed to defending one's self. But here in lies a problem. We are primarily trained for open handed combat and to disarm an attacker. Once the attacker is disarmed, if we now use a weapon, any weapon, we now become the bad guy. Only repeating our judicial system here. Stuart mentioned the knife in the weapons listings. This weapon especially must not be used if the attacker has been disarmed. I fully understand that some want and will use knife against knife. All I can say is that it will cost you dearly, regardless of the outcome. Now granted, this may sound contradictory, but I, like Barry, will do what I must do to survive an altercation. Knowing some legal conditions, does help in the final equation though.

I have attempted to offer cane training to seniors, who actually need and use a cane. To say that there are limititations is to say the sky is blue. There are/were only 3 basic techniques that could be utilized by these people. 1) Straight up from the floor (Wrist Flick) into the groin. 2) Low leg sideways strike. 3) Face strike with the crook or handle of the cane (When/If grabbed). There was a 4th, but this was a finishing move, with the attacker on the ground, from one of the previous techniques. Anything else took too much balance and time to perform. If you haven't had the opportunity to train some seniors, I would suggest that you offer to do so - gratis. It may/should be of value in your own training.

We all train in specifics for our own reasons. Some really enjoy weapons and that's fine for their particular endeavors. I've just been mildly brainwashed by our judicial system. An example: A police officer can be found justified in using deadly force via his service weapon (gun) in the performance of an arrest when his life or another's is threatened. Now in that same situation, if the officer chooses and has the ability, he uses his martial arts training and death or serious injury results, he will find himself on the short end of the stick. It's just the way our laws are written and agency procedures are written and enforced. Also a lot depends on the local DA and his/her political ambitions. Point being here, if the police are subject to ?????? standards, what do you think would happen to a civilian? There are areas of the country, I have been told, that the dictates or use of the term self defense is not a viable defense. If not mistaken, the Chicago area falls under this stupidity. Almost makes one wonder if training is a waste of time and perhaps getting a carry permit is better?................ :rolleyes: Nah!....just venting, training is living. :laugh:

Mike T..........I'll take my S&W 357 revolver anyday. :D

Mike Dunn

[Todd]

It is very interesting to see that most here feel that simple basic techniques are the only real techniques with any weapon for real defense! It is my understanding that this was the only approach of Doju Nim Choi. He taught the curved crook cane/ umbrella with a cruved crook but only a basic set of principles and the same goes for all of the weapons he taught. The cool thing is that if you have a rock solid foundation you can build and that building should be strong.

Just some thoughts. :bow:

Take care,

[Michael Tomlinson]

Hearing Mike Dunn talk about this stuff is very beneficial to me. He is a LEO in my own state. I took the Concealed Weapons Course here in Florida and Mike Dunn would be proud of me. I got an actual invitation to take the course from the local sheriff's dept. in my county. So I took the course from the police department at the local LEO range, and then got tips on my shooting from the actual rangemaster at the LEO range. Learning the do's and don'ts of self defense law from actual LEO's is really an eye opener. It truly makes you understand the seriousness and possible ramifications that could happen with what we do. Needless to say I like to smile a lot and not go where I don't belong....those two things seem to keep me out of common sense harms way...the rest well..that's what I train for...for me and my family...

Mike those three strikes you describe that you taught to the seniors sounds to me like versions of strike 7, 5, and 4 in Sin Moo Hapkido..


Mike
p.s. Mike D. you can't beat the action and expertise of a S&W..IMHO when it come to revolvers they have no equal...and yes I have a few of these gems myself....ha ha

[Michael Tomlinson]

Todd,
I also agree with you bro...when it comes to this stuff and you need to use Hapkido for real...simple is always better...anything else is stupid IMHO...
Mike

[American HKD]

Greetings

Doju Ji's tech are simple yet effective that's his words and I agree.

Also a tip for everyone, Doju Ji considers cane primarily a strking weapon not a joint locking weapons.

I ussually carry a 3 inch folder that's legal size and not considered a lethal weapon. When I did Kali with Tuhan Bill McGrath we did special small blade training.

I would also use non lethal cuts if all possible just to incapacitate an attacker.

[DragonMind]

Todd - I fully agree, basic principles beat specific techniques any day.

Stuart - if the time has come that you need a knife to defend yourself, it is way past non-lethal cutting. Frankly, there's no such thing as reliable non-lethal cutting anyway. You are in a deadly force situation, you need to use it. Besides, going back to Mike D's point about court, those non-lethal cuts are going to be "defensive wounds" at your assault trial.

Mike T. - never heard that about SIGs, that's interesting. Tallahassee PD uses the SIG 229 as standard issue.

[American HKD]

Todd - I fully agree, basic principles beat specific techniques any day.

Stuart - if the time has come that you need a knife to defend yourself, it is way past non-lethal cutting. Frankly, there's no such thing as reliable non-lethal cutting anyway. You are in a deadly force situation, you need to use it. Besides, going back to Mike D's point about court, those non-lethal cuts are going to be "defensive wounds" at your assault trial.

Mike T. - never heard that about SIGs, that's interesting. Tallahassee PD uses the SIG 229 as standard issue.

Greetings

How about butt strikes with a closed knife, they're very damaging in the right places.

[Michael Tomlinson]

Barry,
I know what you mean about the Sigs..I had always heard or actually percieved they were really good weapons. The only reason before my two experiences with them that I hadn't bought one is because they feel kind of top heavy in my hand...anyway...I "percieved they were excellent". After the incident a few years back when I saw the top part of the sig break I thought hmm that's weird because the guy wasn't shooting but about 90 rounds on the range...then like I say after hearing the guy at the range tell me personally last month that he bought one brand new for conceal carry and after bringing it to the range a pin broke in it and the front site actually fell off while he was shooting..well..he said he was still gonna carry it as soon as it came back from the shop and was fixed!! That was enough for me to stay away from them...sounds like their quality control has gone to the dogs...
Mike

[DragonMind]

Greetings

How about butt strikes with a closed knife, they're very damaging in the right places.
I wouldn't argue that. But consider when you would use a blade for defense. Your life is at stake and the other guy has a weapon of their own. You are at a lethal force point already and you are justified in using it. First, my blade isn't closed or I wouldn't have pulled it ("my client was minding his own business when Stuart pulled out his knife..."). Second, it is coming out opened because I may not get another chance to open it, especially if that butt strike misses or that's when I discover the guy is high on crack and never felt that butt strike. If I'm justified in using lethal force, that is going to be my first option. Should an opportunity arise to reduce the level of response, I will, but I work my way down the response ladder, not up it.

[DragonMind]

Mike,

A buddy of mine just retired from TPD. During Doug's time he had been SWAT team leader, training director, and at the end was Special Ops Captain. When the chief asked if he wanted to keep his duty piece as a retirement gift, Doug told him no, he wanted that nice leather jacket the motor officers were wearing! :laugh:

He said he liked the SIG alright but prefered his Kimber. I never knew much about Kimber so I've been researching them. Not a bad piece at all.

[sidekick]

I took the Concealed Weapons Course ...........Oh! Oh! Hapkido and Packing, now that's a tough combo. :laugh:

Mike, I was proud of you the first day I met you. In fact, I'm proud of all my Hapkido brother's and sister's. It takes a lot of determination and fortitude to stay with and train in Hapkido. People like yourself, Hal, Fabian, Stuart, Lugo, Barry, Todd, Kevin and all the other's I have met or talked with, give Hapkido a solid foundation for people to look at. Gentlemen, I :bow:

Take a look at the Glock 19, it's supposed to be bullet proof - Pun intended

As for the knife discussion. Even if you pull a knife for what you feel is strictly self defense reactions, if you use it, you will wind up in varying degrees of trouble. The first question asked in court will be, "why were you carrying a knife". It will cast a reasonable doubt about you to those in the court room and on the jury, should it go that far. One has to remember that as a civilian, your first duty or action is to remove yourself, if possible from the altercation. (Except here in Florida, the new OK Corral) :laugh:

Barry, if your friend can get one of those motor jackets, I take a size 44. :rolleyes:

Mike Dunn

[mateo]

I've noticed a lot of cane guys really have no appreciation of what changes when you actually need the cane for support. What's been your take on that?


I've never heard anyone mention this before. What a great observation. Master Hwang In-Shik first showed me some cane technique when I was using one while recovering from knee surgery so I really appreciate your perceptiveness here, though I have no answers. Most hapkido seems to presume that the fellow with the cane is just pretending to need one.

Myung Kwang-Sik was a member of the Majung Dong school called 'Wang Shin Ri'. While most of these practitioners refer to Master Ji as their 'senior' rather than their 'teacher', and many may have spent time with Choi Yong Sool as well, it is my understanding that Ji was the dominant teacher there so they would all have technique which was similar and would have greatly influenced each other. Other practitioners from this period were Kang Jong-Soo, Hwang Duk-Kyu (whom my own teacher seems to admire the most), Kim Yong-jin (who I believe my teacher started with), Kim Yong-Whan and Lee Tae-joon.

I have also heard it said that the development of hapkido during this period was really collaborative and not the work of any single person at all.

But not having been there...

I also agree that hapkidoists get rather too caught up in the historical aspects and turn most of the threads into arguments about such. Which of course I just became guilty of a few moments ago!

[American HKD]

I've never heard anyone mention this before. What a great observation. Master Hwang In-Shik first showed me some cane technique when I was using one while recovering from knee surgery so I really appreciate your perceptiveness here, though I have no answers. Most hapkido seems to presume that the fellow with the cane is just pretending to need one.

Myung Kwang-Sik was a member of the Majung Dong school called 'Wang Shin Ri'. While most of these practitioners refer to Master Ji as their 'senior' rather than their 'teacher', and many may have spent time with Choi Yong Sool as well, it is my understanding that Ji was the dominant teacher there so they would all have technique which was similar and would have greatly influenced each other. Other practitioners from this period were Kang Jong-Soo, Hwang Duk-Kyu (whom my own teacher seems to admire the most), Kim Yong-jin (who I believe my teacher started with), Kim Yong-Whan and Lee Tae-joon.

I have also heard it said that the development of hapkido during this period was really collaborative and not the work of any single person at all.

But not having been there...

I also agree that hapkidoists get rather too caught up in the historical aspects and turn most of the threads into arguments about such. Which of course I just became guilty of a few moments ago!

Greetings,

The bottom line is the above Masters you mentioned all get or got thier dan certs from Ji Han Jae regardless of wheather they called him teacher or senior.

You should look in his dan book sometime if you ever have the chance, it's a trip and a who's who in HKD and you can see all the top guys with there 1,2,3,.....7,8,9, etc.

I had a meeting last week with a 67 year old Korean 9th Dan in HKD who knew Choi Youg Sool and all the early HKD Masters etc .

An interesting point came up Master Ji commented to me that HKD is better in the US than in Korea, this particular 9th Dan agreed when I asked his opinion based in the fact that when many of the people we call seniors like Myung, Han, etc. etc. they were quite young and never learned as much as we american think they did.

Take that with a grain of salt but when you think about it, what age were people like Bong Soo Han when he came to the US and Myung, Kim, etc. etc.?

It makes some sense.

[DragonMind]

As for the knife discussion. Even if you pull a knife for what you feel is strictly self defense reactions, if you use it, you will wind up in varying degrees of trouble. The first question asked in court will be, "why were you carrying a knife". It will cast a reasonable doubt about you to those in the court room and on the jury, should it go that far. One has to remember that as a civilian, your first duty or action is to remove yourself, if possible from the altercation. (Except here in Florida, the new OK Corral) :laugh:
I also study blade work with Bram Frank (out of Clearwater). One thing he emphasizes that I fully agree with is the notion of "tool" rather than "blade". A good working style knife, whether folding or fixed, is easily defended as a normal item to carry. I wouldn't carry a BattleMax Gut-o-Matic with the Special Lung Tip because then you're just asking for trouble as you say. I know several folks who carry a Spetsnaz-style shovel in their car for the same reason. "Your Honor, I was afraid for my life and just grabbed the first thing I could find to protect myself from lethal harm..."


Barry, if your friend can get one of those motor jackets, I take a size 44. :rolleyes:

Mike DunnYeah, I wear a 42 but Chief MacNeill just laughed at all of us.

[DragonMind]

I also agree that hapkidoists get rather too caught up in the historical aspects and turn most of the threads into arguments about such. Which of course I just became guilty of a few moments ago!
Although it can get passionate on this board at times, you'll find a great deal of respect and acceptance here. There were some disruptive forces here earlier that simply could not accept that everything wasn't black and white (with theirs being the One True Way...), but they have moved on to less monitored sites.

One of the things I love about BudoSeek and the HKD practitioners here is that we can discuss ideas, even passionately, with some of the most senior folks in the US, and with folks who can pick up the phone and call the most senior people in the world and get answers, tips, techniques, approaches, just about anything you could want. Without exception, every teacher on this board has offered an open invitation to anyone in their area to come get on the mat with them. You don't find that in a lot of other styles. HKD truly is a brotherhood of the faithful. We're also fiercely defensive about our art, so woe be to anyone outside who attacks it! :laugh: I think we'll all get a little less prickly as HKD gains wider acceptance and people will be able to see real HKD from the "me-too's".

[Michael Tomlinson]

Barry,
I've also heard good things about the Kimbers. They are basically tricked out match grade 1911's which is fine with me, I love the 1911's. But man they are pricey....

Stuart,
You make a very good point on the dan rankings that no one seems to want to own up to these days. I love when people state that Ji wasn't their teacher back in the old days but you can look in the book and see their names and the exact dates they were promoted and to what rank from Ji. I used to laugh about it but now I just shake my head in disbelief. The one thing I respect from GM Jin Pal Kim is that he doesn't play that game. He tells you straight up on his website with plenty of documentation exactly where he comes from. I like that.

Plus I have heard Doju Nim Ji tell me the same thing about Hapkido in the U.S. and in Korea. I have also listened to several high dan ranks who stated the same thing to me in the past. People don't want to actually believe a lot of this because it kind of busts that bubble of the elusive Korea being the big Hapkido holy land so to speak. No disrespect to anyone or their teachers are intended here. Some of Ji's older black belts have told me that most Korean Hapkido these days have become like a form of gymnastics and fancy kicking and much less like self defense. I have witnessed this myself first hand through a teacher exchange program with a Korean university that used to send martial arts teachers over to a Martial Arts School I used to teach at. Mind you I was the only non Korean teaching at this school. These young Korean Masters would come over and stay for 6 months and teach TKD, and they all had 4th dans in Hapkido at the time. They were all good guys and could kick and do a ton of falls and back flips but their basics in Hapkido were horrible. Going from Doju Nim Ji's basics they were wide open for counter attacks all the time. But they were very flashy and fast. Sometimes I would "fix" their Hapkido techniques and they would ask me where did you learn that??? I would say from Ji Han Jae and they would smile and look confused. Some of them said there was a picture of Ji Han Jae hanging in their school in Korea but they couldn't seem to fathom that I had actually learned from him..very strange sometimes......

I also know exactly what you are talking about with the old GM's in the U.S. being young when they came over here. After I wrote an article in TKD Times about Master Hal Whalen many years ago I got this phone call from a guy in Vancouver Cananda out of the blue. He was telling me that he liked the article and the respect that I gave to the Korea Hapkido Association. He told me that his dad was an old Korean Hapkidoist from that era who worked as a bodyguard for the president with the KHA back in the old days. His dad had told him to call me!! I ask him if his dad still practiced Hapkido and he told me he only played golf these days. But one thing his dad had told him after he read my article was that none of those guys were hardly above 3rd dan back in the old days. He said that 3rd dan back then was a really high rank and most of those bodyguards were 2nd to 3rd dans only but very very good at what they did.

Mike :)

[American HKD]

Barry,
I've also heard good things about the Kimbers. They are basically tricked out match grade 1911's which is fine with me, I love the 1911's. But man they are pricey....

Stuart,
You make a very good point on the dan rankings that no one seems to want to own up to these days. I love when people state that Ji wasn't their teacher back in the old days but you can look in the book and see their names and the exact dates they were promoted and to what rank from Ji. I used to laugh about it but now I just shake my head in disbelief. The one thing I respect from GM Jin Pal Kim is that he doesn't play that game. He tells you straight up on his website with plenty of documentation exactly where he comes from. I like that.

Plus I have heard Doju Nim Ji tell me the same thing about Hapkido in the U.S. and in Korea. I have also listened to several high dan ranks who stated the same thing to me in the past. People don't want to actually believe a lot of this because it kind of busts that bubble of the elusive Korea being the big Hapkido holy land so to speak. No disrespect to anyone or their teachers are intended here. Some of Ji's older black belts have told me that most Korean Hapkido these days have become like a form of gymnastics and fancy kicking and much less like self defense. I have witnessed this myself first hand through a teacher exchange program with a Korean university that used to send martial arts teachers over to a Martial Arts School I used to teach at. Mind you I was the only non Korean teaching at this school. These young Korean Masters would come over and stay for 6 months and teach TKD, and they all had 4th dans in Hapkido at the time. They were all good guys and could kick and do a ton of falls and back flips but their basics in Hapkido were horrible. Going from Doju Nim Ji's basics they were wide open for counter attacks all the time. But they were very flashy and fast. Sometimes I would "fix" their Hapkido techniques and they would ask me where did you learn that??? I would say from Ji Han Jae and they would smile and look confused. Some of them said there was a picture of Ji Han Jae hanging in their school in Korea but they couldn't seem to fathom that I had actually learned from him..very strange sometimes......

I also know exactly what you are talking about with the old GM's in the U.S. being young when they came over here. After I wrote an article in TKD Times about Master Hal Whalen many years ago I got this phone call from a guy in Vancouver Cananda out of the blue. He was telling me that he liked the article and the respect that I gave to the Korea Hapkido Association. He told me that his dad was an old Korean Hapkidoist from that era who worked as a bodyguard for the president with the KHA back in the old days. His dad had told him to call me!! I ask him if his dad still practiced Hapkido and he told me he only played golf these days. But one thing his dad had told him after he read my article was that none of those guys were hardly above 3rd dan back in the old days. He said that 3rd dan back then was a really high rank and most of those bodyguards were 2nd to 3rd dans only but very very good at what they did.

Mike :)


Greetings,

You got it, sometimes I feel like I'm talking to the wall so many people just have no clue.

Masters included!

Oh yeah there a old Master Chong Min Lee out of north jersey 9th dan he only learned from to 3rd in Korea I know this first hand. BTW he was on my 1st dan testing board in 1981.

[moksha]

An interesting point came up Master Ji commented to me that HKD is better in the US than in Korea, this particular 9th Dan agreed when I asked his opinion based in the fact that when many of the people we call seniors like Myung, Han, etc. etc. they were quite young and never learned as much as we american think they did.

Stuart,

I see what your saying. However I think there are some differnces in training from the 50's, and 60's to now. Meaning that, training back then I garantee was alot harsher than what is seen today. Which is why alot of the older Hapkido grandmsters were young, and low ranked. Rank seemed to come alot faster back then than now, which explains why people like Myung, and Han were very young. Imagine not having a nice soft mat to break fall on. Most of the elders did not when they were training. Infact our HQ in Korea is a solid wood floor, with a layer of Tatami grass, and an old blue Army tarp from the 60's. So you could imagine the difference in falling. Infact when GM Chang made is first trip to the U.S. He stepped on the mat and said "oooh, feels like sofa" I laughed inside. Also I heard a story that, the reason teachers used throwing techniques where they go down on one knee was to not be as hard on americans, when the art was brought here. I always wondered about that, because we never go down to one knee to throw. Well, I won't say never, but it is very, very rare in our style. Not sure if that is a true story, but just what I have heard. Anyway, I just wanted to say something regarding the cane. GM Chang, like I have stated was an early student of Ji. He said that the cane material when he was studying was from a straight walking stick, not the curved cane. Which is what GM Chang teaches, the straight cane. So I suppose, like I have said in the past that the hooked cane did not come about until themid 60's. Just a thought. What do you think?

[sidekick]

As a side note here, since his name was mentioned, How is Hal (aka Juan Valdez) Whalen :D doing with his rehab?

Mike Dunn

[American HKD]

Stuart,

I see what your saying. However I think there are some differnces in training from the 50's, and 60's to now. Meaning that, training back then I garantee was alot harsher than what is seen today. Which is why alot of the older Hapkido grandmsters were young, and low ranked. Rank seemed to come alot faster back then than now, which explains why people like Myung, and Han were very young. Imagine not having a nice soft mat to break fall on. Most of the elders did not when they were training. Infact our HQ in Korea is a solid wood floor, with a layer of Tatami grass, and an old blue Army tarp from the 60's. So you could imagine the difference in falling. Infact when GM Chang made is first trip to the U.S. He stepped on the mat and said "oooh, feels like sofa" I laughed inside. Also I heard a story that, the reason teachers used throwing techniques where they go down on one knee was to not be as hard on americans, when the art was brought here. I always wondered about that, because we never go down to one knee to throw. Well, I won't say never, but it is very, very rare in our style. Not sure if that is a true story, but just what I have heard. Anyway, I just wanted to say something regarding the cane. GM Chang, like I have stated was an early student of Ji. He said that the cane material when he was studying was from a straight walking stick, not the curved cane. Which is what GM Chang teaches, the straight cane. So I suppose, like I have said in the past that the hooked cane did not come about until themid 60's. Just a thought. What do you think?

Mike

I'm not talking about hard training or lack of good training equip that's another subject.

I mean overall knowledge of the system, and of course I don't mean to lump all korean players in the same catagory.

When Ji left Korea the system changed alot as Mike T said, it became much more gymnastic like Chinese WuShu acrobatics and stuff.

That's all show not the essence of the Art.

As we've been saying with the cane simple works best in real life.

I don't have any knowledge of the walking stick vs the curve handle. But the Japanese alway had the Bo, Jo, Hanbo (walking staff) palm sticks, yawara stick, etc.

[moksha]

Mike

I'm not talking about hard training or lack of good training equip that's another subject.

I mean overall knowledge of the system, and of course I don't mean to lump all korean players in the same catagory.

When Ji left Korea the system changed alot as Mike T said, it became much more gymnastic like Chinese WuShu acrobatics and stuff.

That's all show not the essence of the Art.

As we've been saying with the cane simple works best in real life.

I don't have any knowledge of the walking stick vs the curve handle. But the Japanese alway had the Bo, Jo, Hanbo (walking staff) palm sticks, yawara stick, etc.

Stuart,

Your right. after looking over the posts again, I can see where I got off track of what you were talking about. Sorry about that. btw, not to pressure you or anything, but have you thought of a set date yet for the event? Just wondering.

[Michael Tomlinson]

Mike Merchant brought up a good point that I actually asked Doju Nim Ji about one time.....

Why do some throws go to one knee while others don't.... he explained it to me through a very painful demonstration...the pain being all mine mind you...take number three technique,,which many call a reverse circular wrist throw...Ji does that throw and drops to a knee when he does it...he showed me that as you do certain throws that if you stand up or stay vertical through the movement that the counter techniques can be activated on you during the throw....BUT.. if you descend to a knee during the throwing movement then you totally take away the counter techniques against you....same with an outward wrist throw...the way he does it he actually drops to a knee when he does certain versions...once he demonstrated on me and told me to go ahead and fall when he did the technique this way...I'm all set to give him a big fall but before I could react he crunched me down to the ground...man it hurt like a mother..Doju Nim Ji looked at me and smiled and said "very painful huh",, I says "yes sir",, and then he made the point that IF you do the basic movement right then the big falling and the counters can't happen because your descending body power just ends up crumpling the opponents arm.....
So as I can attest...Doju Nim Ji knows his **** tremendously and even though some things aren't readily evident..he has been there and done that...

Mike Merchant I hope this helps with some of the questions about dropping to a knee on some techniques.. It is definately NOT because we americans are soft...hell my father helped liberate that country which they couldn't do by themselves....

maybe one of the reasons your style doesn't drop to a knee very much is because you come from the Myung brothers and their style is a more large circle type of Hapkido?? More akin to the Aikido strain of Hapkido?? I don't really know about this..just a theory.....I know some of my Hoi Jeon Moo Sool experiences have been that they use big fast circles, it is effective....Ji's Hapkido is more blunt and abrupt..

I agree with you about the hard training in the old days with those guys...BUT..I was playing linebacker and wrestling for a lot of years and I guarantee you that those Koreans haven't fell or got bashed any harder than I or some of my bros have over the years...
Mike :karate:

[American HKD]

Mike Merchant brought up a good point that I actually asked Doju Nim Ji about one time.....

Why do some throws go to one knee while others don't.... he explained it to me through a very painful demonstration...the pain being all mine mind you...take number three technique,,which many call a reverse circular wrist throw...Ji does that throw and drops to a knee when he does it...he showed me that as you do certain throws that if you stand up or stay vertical through the movement that the counter techniques can be activated on you during the throw....BUT.. if you descend to a knee during the throwing movement then you totally take away the counter techniques against you....same with an outward wrist throw...the way he does it he actually drops to a knee when he does certain versions...once he demonstrated on me and told me to go ahead and fall when he did the technique this way...I'm all set to give him a big fall but before I could react he crunched me down to the ground...man it hurt like a mother..Doju Nim Ji looked at me and smiled and said "very painful huh",, I says "yes sir",, and then he made the point that IF you do the basic movement right then the big falling and the counters can't happen because your descending body power just ends up crumpling the opponents arm.....
So as I can attest...Doju Nim Ji knows his **** tremendously and even though some things aren't readily evident..he has been there and done that...

Mike Merchant I hope this helps with some of the questions about dropping to a knee on some techniques.. It is definately NOT because we americans are soft...hell my father helped liberate that country which they couldn't do by themselves....

maybe one of the reasons your style doesn't drop to a knee very much is because you come from the Myung brothers and their style is a more large circle type of Hapkido?? More akin to the Aikido strain of Hapkido?? I don't really know about this..just a theory.....I know some of my Hoi Jeon Moo Sool experiences have been that they use big fast circles, it is effective....Ji's Hapkido is more blunt and abrupt..

I agree with you about the hard training in the old days with those guys...BUT..I was playing linebacker and wrestling for a lot of years and I guarantee you that those Koreans haven't fell or got bashed any harder than I or some of my bros have over the years...
Mike :karate:


Very good points!

[moksha]

Why do some throws go to one knee while others don't.... he explained it to me through a very painful demonstration...the pain being all mine mind you...take number three technique,,which many call a reverse circular wrist throw...Ji does that throw and drops to a knee when he does it...he showed me that as you do certain throws that if you stand up or stay vertical through the movement that the counter techniques can be activated on you during the throw....BUT.. if you descend to a knee during the throwing movement then you totally take away the counter techniques against you....same with an outward wrist throw...the way he does it he actually drops to a knee when he does certain versions...once he demonstrated on me and told me to go ahead and fall when he did the technique this way...I'm all set to give him a big fall but before I could react he crunched me down to the ground...man it hurt like a mother..Doju Nim Ji looked at me and smiled and said "very painful huh",, I says "yes sir",, and then he made the point that IF you do the basic movement right then the big falling and the counters can't happen because your descending body power just ends up crumpling the opponents arm.....
So as I can attest...Doju Nim Ji knows his **** tremendously and even though some things aren't readily evident..he has been there and done that...

I'm not saying Ji doesen't know what he's talking about. But there are numerous ways to stop counters, hand positioning, hip movement, or different stepping. Dropping down on one knee might be one way to do it, but keeping your self up right does not mean you are more vulnerable to counters. Infact, dropping down to one knee makes you more vulnerable if considering multiple attackers yes?


Mike Merchant I hope this helps with some of the questions about dropping to a knee on some techniques.. It is definately NOT because we americans are soft...hell my father helped liberate that country which they couldn't do by themselves....

I think that is a totally different situation, and not relavent to the topic.


maybe one of the reasons your style doesn't drop to a knee very much is because you come from the Myung brothers and their style is a more large circle type of Hapkido?? More akin to the Aikido strain of Hapkido?? I don't really know about this..just a theory.....I know some of my Hoi Jeon Moo Sool experiences have been that they use big fast circles, it is effective....Ji's Hapkido is more blunt and abrupt..

As I have said before. Our techniques are nothing like Myung Jae-Nam's style, or Aikido. Of course our basic techniques use bigger circles than our advanced. But that's they every Hapkido groups techniques are. You start bigger to understand them, then through progression they get smaller, and smaller. But I garantee you they are no where near the big circles used in Aikido. Trust me I know what I'm talking about. I had some training in Aikido, so I can tell the difference.

[Michael Tomlinson]

Mike no disrespect or flaming intended but I don't think you are at the level yet to understand what I'm talking about when it comes to dropping to one knee to stop the counters... if you had felt these before you would totally understand what I am talking about..since you quoted the standard fare about hand grabbing, body position, and standing straight up I know where you are at about right now so it's cool...what black belt level did you test for where you learned and demonstrated the counter techniques?

Isn't your organization through the Myung brothers originally? I thought there was a big blow out on here earlier where it was stated that you guys were with the IHF? Also NO not all Hapkido starts with big circles and moves to small circles? None that I practice does this.
Mike

[moksha]

Mike no disrespect or flaming intended but I don't think you are at the level yet to understand what I'm talking about when it comes to dropping to one knee to stop the counters... if you had felt these before you would totally understand what I am talking about..since you quoted the standard fare about hand grabbing, body position, and standing straight up I know where you are at about right now so it's cool...what black belt level did you test for where you learned and demonstrated the counter techniques?

Iunderstand where your comming from. All I was saying is that we don't do it, for number of reasons including the one I mentioned above "multiple attackers". My level of training has nothing to do with dropping down on one knee. I have never seen my instructor do it, or teach it, nor have I ever seen GM Chang do it, or teach it. And trust me, you don't have time to even think about a counter if you attack him.


Isn't your organization through the Myung brothers originally? I thought there was a big blow out on here earlier where it was stated that you guys were with the IHF? Also NO not all Hapkido starts with big circles and moves to small circles? None that I practice does this.
Mike

Organizationally GM Chang at one time was a student of Myung. But he started with Ji for his 1st, and 2nd Dan. I did not mean for it to sound like all other Hapkido groups go from bigger circle to smaller circle. When I use the term circle, sometimes I do not mean literally a circle. I'm just saying that most Hapkido techniques that I have seen in our style, and others the advanced applications of the basics are usually a tighter, faster twist or turn on the joint or whatever compaired to the basics. Atleast thats what I have seen.