Impressions on Soo Bahk Do

[Grei]

Putting this here because I'm not sure where else to put it...

I've just recently started Soo Bahk Do through a program through my college... and in independant research I've received a lot of information about it that seems conflicting.

Some have said that it's identical to Tang Soo Do in all but name, some have said they're completely different...

Some have said it's a very traditional Korean art, a lot more so than TKD and TSD, some say it was formed fairly recently as an American institution.

I'm having a fairly hard time sifting through it all...

And aside from Soo Bahk Do practitioners, I'm getting an indistinct impression that it's not very well respected in the MA field...


So I was wondering what you all thought of it, or knew/heard of it. I'm thinking having one thread on it could probably help clarify, at least for me. There's not really anyone I can personally ask besides my instructor, and while he seems well-versed, he's likely biased.

[DragonMind]

My impression based on simply reading all the materials I could find and my own knowledge of KMA, is that it is Tang Soo Do MDK under a new organizational name. My suspicion, and it is only that, is that the name was lifted from the Moo Yei Dobo Tong Ji as a way to make the art seem very old and Korean-originated, i.e. a marketing gimmick. If they are teaching real TSD, I say enjoy the ride. TSD is a well respected KMA.

[arod]

I’m really hoping someone with some good knowledge will speak to the Tang Soo Do part. I personally think the history is somewhat hazy. I know of the founder, Hwang Kee. Who else is around still running the larger more organized orgs? In my area the highest ranking TSD guy is GM Andy AH PO.
On that note, any body met GM Ah Po?

[Wes]

(I've been away from this forum for awhile now...)



Some have said that it's identical to Tang Soo Do in all but name,

This is what I have believed for the longest time. Recently, I've been doing tremendous research on the history of the Moo Duk Kwan, how it branched off into different organizations, how Soo Bahk Do was 'created', etc.

At many Soo Bahk Do competitions, regional and at the national level, I've noticed that some practitioners have duffle bags with 'Tang Soo Do' insignia printed on them. I've noticed that some, although very few, people actually have 'Tang Soo Do' embroidered on the back of their dobok.

I don't believe that changing the name to Soo Bahk Do was meant to be a marketing gimick. After listening to Kwang Jang Nim H.C. Hwang talk at the national competition a week 1/2 ago, and his vision tours, I feel that changing the name was a sincere way to, I can't put this into words, but to sound more traditional, to be more traditional.

There are so many similarities between the two arts. I purchased the July 2005 issue of Tae Kwon Do Times today at Waldenbooks. Before I get into that, it was quite interesting. At the book store, one of the employees started talking to me about martial arts shoes, since he saw me flipping through the magazine. We then started talking martial arts and he told me that he took Tang Soo Do, and I said 'Oh wow!, I take Soo Bahk Do." and he replied, 'Yeah, yeah, Soo Bahk Do, thats what I take." I feel that I'm the same way too. When I'm talking about martial arts, if someone doesn't know what Soo Bahk Do is, I say Tang Soo Do and half the time people know what I'm talking about. Other wise, I would just say 'Its a Korean martial art..' or that 'It's similar to Tae Kwan Do..'.

Anyways, back to the July issue of Tae Kwon Do Times. I was looking through the pictures and was astonished by the similarities. The belts, dobok trim, even the dojang amazingly looks like my old dojang. Only real thing that caught my eye was on Pg. 31, there's a young practitioner, with a yellow belt?? (there's no yellow belt in Soo Bahk Do). And lastly, the black belts... they're black, not midnight blue as I am familiar with.


Anyways, below is taken from the book "Soo Bahk Do Tang Soo Do" by Hwang Kee. It is the public notice, the very first page of the book.

-----------------------------------------

The Tang Soo Do (Soo Bahk Do) Moo Duk Kwan martial art system was developed by Grandmaster Hwang Kee in 1945. It is a composite system that draws heavily on the ancient documented Korean martial art of "Soo Bahk" or "Soo Bahk Hi" as interpreted by Grandmaster Hwang Kee as well as northern and southern Chinese influences. Since 1945 he has continuously instructed and monitored those whom he has certified to teach his martial art system in order to insure the accurate transmission of it's essence from instructor to student. Grandmaster Hwang Kee's method of instruction is highly standardized and very strict in it's expectations of the instructor and the student because he wishes to insure the most accurate representation of his teachings for those who are learning Tang Soo Do (Soo Bahk Do) Moo Duk Kwan.

In 1974, he established the U.S. Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation Inc. (now known as the U.S. Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation Inc.), a non profit organization whose Mission is to work toward world peace by improving human relationships through the instruction and practice of Tang Soo Do (Soo Bahk Do) Moo Duk Kwan and whose primary chartered purpose is to insure that the quality of instruction and the experience enjoyed by all Tang Soo Do (Soo Bahk Do) Moo Duk Kwan students throughout the U.S. is consistent with his high standards.

------------------

Thats about half of the page. I just typed that all from hand from the book in front of me, word for word. I bolded/italized some sentences to stand out. Other wise, if your wondering, it is actually printed in the book, after every mention of the word Tang Soo Do, in parenthesis right after it it says, (Soo Bahk Do).

My fingers are tired from typing. Anyone else have any thoughts? Comments?


Edit: Okay, my fingers are okay again. Back to what I was saying, there's no denying it, there are Japanese influences, although it doesn't state it specifically on this page. I don't know if its stated else where in this book but in the book 'The History of the Moo Duk Kwan', it talks about how Hwang Kee enjoyed reading books on Okinawan Karate, and how that "knowledge influenced the Moo Duk Kwan system...".

Here's more from pg. 5 of that same book.

"Kwang Jang Nim Hwang Kee discovered Soo Bahk in the Moo Yei Do Bo Tong Ji in 1957. This was the rebirth of Soo Bahk as a Korean traditional martial art. He spent long and arduous hours of study in order to make possible the rebirth of Soo Bahk for the martial arts practitioners of the world. He developed the Soo Bahk Do system for us to study through the Moo Duk Kwan as a living art, and he has helped us to become connected with our long and proud heritage.

The Kwang Jang Nim realized the importance and value of "Soo Bahk" and he named it "Soo Bahk Do" and started its promotion in 1957. In November 1959, he applied to the Ministry of Education in Korea for incorporation under the name of the "Korean Soo Bahk Do Assocation." The Korean Soo Bahk Do Assocation was formally registred as a corporation with the Korean Government on June 30, 1960 and has continuously fulfilled its mission."

Pg. 16 says that 'Tang Soo Do' was adopted by Hwang Kee during the infancy of the Moo Duk Kwan, and thats it.

On the http://worldmoodukkwan.com/ website, click history and scroll to the very bottom. It says "In 1982, Kwan Jang Nim Hwang Kee officially introduced Soo Bahk Do at the International Championship..." So I assume this is around the time when the transition occured from Tang Soo Do to Soo Bahk Do, thus seperating into two arts.

Any thoughts or comments?


EDIT NUMBER 2: I have a question. What about the dan bon system? I believe, I'm not exactly sure, but I remember reading somewhere that Chuck Norris is dan bon #2819 in Tang Soo Do. I'm #42327 in Soo Bahk Do. What happened? did the system change? Or are we all still part of the same dan bon system?? For example, did it go to say, #1 through lets say, #40000, then it went different ways when Soo Bahk Do was created? I don't think so. Anyone have an answer to this?

[Gae-Bek]

Whenever you run across one of those people who thinks Taekwondo is 2000 years old, they always say that it (Taekwondo) evolved from the "ancient arts of Subak-Do and Tae-Kyon".

My impression of Subak-Do, (is similar to that of Tae-Kyon) is that it's an art that died-out long ago...probably erased by the Japanese during the occupation.

Sorry, I didn't realize that people still practiced it...or at least, claim to practice it.

[chas]

When Grandmaster Hwang Kee started the Moo Duk Kwan he did not call his art Tang Soo Do. That name was chosen later, some believe as a marketing technique because it translates as generic 'karate" in japanese. The art, although none of the Korean masters wanted to admit this, was essentially korean shotokan. The korean and chinese "influence" was added later, through the 60's and 70's. The blue cho dan belt, the circular blocks, hip rotation, increasing variety of kicks, standardization of technique, the chil sung and yuk ro forms, and the addition of "soo bahk do" to the art's name came especially in the 70's. KJN Hwang Kee wanted to remove any trace of japanese roots in the Moo Duk Kwan. It came to a head in the early 80's. High ranking members of the Moo Duk Kwan, especially in the U.S., were told that "Tang Soo Do" and it's curriculum was going to be phased completely out in favor of "Soo Bahk Do" and it's new curriculum. That, and the announcement that the ownership of the Moo Duk Kwan was going to be passed to Master Hwang H.C. instead of higher ranking members, caused a split in the into the two major factions seen today as the Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan and the World Tang Soo Do Association. Other high ranking Moo Duk Kwan members also formed thier own smaller associations.

The truth is that no native Korean martial art survived the occupation. Anything seen today is someone's interpretation, valid or not, of those pre-occupation arts. And anyone who claims direct connections of thier Korean martial art to pre-occupation martial arts is blowing smoke.

None of this disparages the creativity and contributions that KJN Hwang Kee has made to the world of martial arts, and there is no question that Grandmaster Hwang H.C. is a talented man in his own right. It is simply unfortunate that the history of the Moo Duk Kwan and the origin of Tang Soo Do/Soo Bahk Do was deliberately clouded...there is nothing shameful about the truth.

[Wes]

Sorry, I didn't realize that people still practiced it...or at least, claim to practice it.

Soo Bahk Do practitioners do not claim to be learning an ancient martial art. Like I bolded in my previous post, Soo Bahk Do IS Grandmaster Hwang Kee's interpretation of the art.

[moogong]

The new issue of black belt has an in interview with H.C. Hwang. It's not very in depth but it gives some insight into Moo Duk Kwans direction under his leadership.

[eternalrage]

Some have said that it's identical to Tang Soo Do in all but name, some have said they're completely different...

Some have said it's a very traditional Korean art, a lot more so than TKD and TSD, some say it was formed fairly recently as an American institution.

I'm having a fairly hard time sifting through it all...

And aside from Soo Bahk Do practitioners, I'm getting an indistinct impression that it's not very well respected in the MA field...

Wes covered alot of the official US Soo Bahk Do Federation history. The impression that its not respected in the MA field comes from two reasons. First, there is a major stigma coming out of Korea about Soo Bahk Do/Tang Soo Do - Hwang Kee fought the Korean government in courts for almost 4 years to preserve his art, during that time his schools were shut down. The effects of that ordeal can be felt even today - Moo Duk Kwan went from being one of the largest martial arts schools to one of the smallest in Korea (hence the entrenchment in the US).

Secondly, there have been major scandals and behind the scenes politics/drama at the US SBD MDK Federation, I don't know too much about it, but my master hinted that once getting to master level, it becomes an issue. Some of it you can read on Master Nolan's site, about the financial troubles and Master Ah Po's complaints about the Federation. Pretty eye opening I think.

In answer to Grei's question, Soo Bahk Do is pretty much the same Tang Soo Do that founder Hwang Kee created. He decided to change the name to distinguish what he was doing from the rest of the Tang Soo Do associations, as Chas put it.


Who else is around still running the larger more organized orgs?
Jae Joon Shin, C.S. Kim, Ho Sik Pak are a few.


Edit: Okay, my fingers are okay again. Back to what I was saying, there's no denying it, there are Japanese influences, although it doesn't state it specifically on this page. I don't know if its stated else where in this book but in the book 'The History of the Moo Duk Kwan', it talks about how Hwang Kee enjoyed reading books on Okinawan Karate, and how that "knowledge influenced the Moo Duk Kwan system...".
There are Japanese influences. The Pyung Ahns, Bassai all the way up to Sip Soo or Wanshu (whichever is higher) are all derived from Okinawan Karate, which trace roots back to Chinese martial arts. Grandmaster Hwang Kee took the forms from an Okinawan karate book he found at a library - it is assumed that he did so in order to make his art more popular to the Korean public, which at that time had been heavily assimilated into Japanese culture (even years after liberation) - preferring the Karate. You can find this info on pages 15-16 in the History of Moo Duk Kwan book.


EDIT NUMBER 2: I have a question. What about the dan bon system? I believe, I'm not exactly sure, but I remember reading somewhere that Chuck Norris is dan bon #2819 in Tang Soo Do. I'm #42327 in Soo Bahk Do. What happened? did the system change? Or are we all still part of the same dan bon system?? For example, did it go to say, #1 through lets say, #40000, then it went different ways when Soo Bahk Do was created? I don't think so. Anyone have an answer to this?
As far as I know, it is intact. If you got one in Tang Soo Do under Hwang Kee, then your name is in the book, along with the Soo Bahk Do practitioners who came later. Probably all they did was change the name on the book of dan numbers.

[eternalrage]

My impression of Subak-Do, (is similar to that of Tae-Kyon) is that it's an art that died-out long ago...probably erased by the Japanese during the occupation.


The truth is that no native Korean martial art survived the occupation. Anything seen today is someone's interpretation, valid or not, of those pre-occupation arts. And anyone who claims direct connections of thier Korean martial art to pre-occupation martial arts is blowing smoke.

These points are very true. The references to Silla and the Hwarang and those two statues in front of some cave or shrine or other are made in almost every Korean martial arts history. There is little to nil historical links between Korean martial arts now and back then - all modern Korean martial arts came at liberation of Korea from Japan in 1945, and they were all heavily Karate based because most of the Kwan leaders had trained in Karate at the universities.

Subak is gone. The Hwarang are gone. Soo Bahk Do/Tang Soo Do is as new as Hwarangdo.

Did anyone read the reprinting of Korean Martial Arts history article that Black Belt Magazine ran a couple months ago? Made me want to rip up every issue they had at that Barnes and Noble...

[dingodog1]

All you need to know is in this thread, thread-starter. You just have to sift thru the posts, consider the guys who posted it(not me, I'm a noob) and use your own judgement.

Actually I can't do anythign but I have read and discussed the origins of TSD/SBD. The complications seem to be intentional for the most part. To me, the short(and most accurate) answer is that they are the same art. Some stuff has been added to make SBD appear differently and all it's member schools have the same curricula as opposed to the various differences in the unaffiliated TSD schools over the last 40 years.

SBD has some stuff goin on but the art is respected, relevant and complete. Throw away your reservations and go for it. The politics aren't somethng you should even be concerned about. Stay abreast of it, fyi, but suit up and sweat!

[OkinawaGojuRyu]

A few years ago , I was doing some in depth research into TSD/SBD , & the TKD MDK split , as well . If you would go to my angelfire site you can find the TSD article there.

[ChristianTSD]

TSD and SBD are very very similar - individuals will move differently if the TSD is from far enough back that you only practice the traditional hyung - the Chil Sungs and Yuk Ro do have an influence on the way you move. The big deal about the respect comes from when HC Hwang took over the federation - Hwang Kee's son, rather than JC Shin (who was seniormost) or any of a few others who were senior to Hwang Kee. There has been and in some cases still is a lot of political infighting int he TSD/SBD world, and not too long ago the SBDMDK overreached itself trying to sue others for the use of the Chil Sungs (unsubstantiated, that may just be a rumor).
In Christ,
Phil Stewart

[WMKS Shogun]

As i understood it from my short time training in Soo Bahk Do, the main reason Soo Bahk Do took the new name, etc. was because many schools were using the name Tang Soo Do, yet were not teaching the traditional Hyungs, were adding TKD and karate forms or plain made-up forms, were changing the hyungs, or were leaving some out simply because they 'did not like them'. In an attempt to maintain his original vision GM Hwang Kee called for all traditional Tang Soo Do schools still loyal to the Moo Duk Kwan, to unite under the banner and new name of Soo Bahk Do. There is probably more to it, but this is, as i understand it, a part of the motivation behind the change before GM Hwang Kee's death.

[ChristianTSD]

I've never heard that - as I understand it, the official line was dropping the TSD name as it had only been a marketing device to begin with (same characters as Karate-do, just pronounced in Korean). The reality? Probably a combination of that and a desire to differentiate the original federation from all the splits - When JC Shin, and others left, it was probably galling, and it was worse that they were successful. Honestly, JC Shin probably should have taken over the TSDMDK, rather than HC Hwang....but by changing the name, and differentiating the art, the SBDMDK never has to deal with it - neither will any of the Masters that left, because they are sucessful on their own teaching TSD, what would they want with SBD? No offense to any SBD practitioners here. Sometimes the TSD-SBD relationship is strained, because certain TSD masters will badmouth SBD, being bitter over the leadership split.
In Christ,
Phil Stewart