Child Classes?

[hizaguchi]

I've been looking for a good Taekwondo school lately, and I've noticed that most of them have designated children's classes. Is this a common practice? How do you feel about it?

I originally learned in a class of students ranging from 5 to 77 years old. I would have never thought a children's class was necessary. All of our young students were expected to be just as disciplined as the adults, and therefore they never got in the way of class. They just acted like smaller versions of everybody else. It seems to me that having a class devoted specifically to children is like saying that kids are too immature to practice with adults. This seems unhealthy because it tells the kids that you expect less discipline from them than you expect from the adults. I would think that this would lead to poorer behavior and less self respect in the children. Could someone please help me understand why classes are so commonly seperated this way?

[TonyU]

Children and adults classes should be seperated.
Children do not learn at the same rate as an adult. There may be exceptions but children do not have the physical strength, mental capacity or maturity of an adult.
If a martial art class is being taught in a mixed class of children and adults and everyone are performing and learning the same techniques, with no problems, then in essence the class is really geared towards the children and the adults are being cheated.
Not to say you can't have a mixed class once in a while or for a specific reason, but no all the time.

[AndrewSimonsen]

From what I have seen, if you have kids and adults in the same class the adults end up babysitting the kids.

[KUSA_KMG]

^^
That only happens when a school fails to teach discipline.

Kids and adults should train in the same class. The adults in the atmosphere provide the younger kids with a role model and the adults help show them how to act properly. In my school, we have beginner classes, intermediate and advanced....we also have advanced/adult where all adults are welcome regardless of rank, and all advanced belts are welcome regardless of age. However, beginner adults can still come to the beginner classes the kids come to.

Saying "kids learn slower than adults" is short-changing your students. In many cases, kids learn much faster than adults do. In many other cases, its the opposite. For every slow child, i'll find you a slow adult. It is a known fact that children are faster learners when studying language...the same may hold true for martial arts. I can usually get a child to learn proper roundhouse technique before an adult. Some adults learn forms faster than kids, but not always. The bottom line is that there is no evidence that adults learn things faster than kids, it all depends on the individual.

Especially with advanced belts, kids of high rank should be able to keep up with adults anyway. I don't see a real need to seperate kids and adults.

[jjaje]

Interesting position. Which brings up another question, are your self defense techniques modified for kids? For the younglings (as yoda would say) many schools change a lot of the eye and throat pokes to palm heels, some techniques that completely break an appendage (versus just a joint lock) may not be in the childrens curriculum. This is one reason adult and kids groups are seperate in many schools.

Personally, when it's my hard earned money doing the talking, I would not want to have group class with a bunch of kids. Many of our adult group classes are high intensity and hard hitting, and very few pre teens would be able to complete them.

[TonyU]

Sorry I disagree. I stand by my opinion based on years of teaching, kids, teens and adults. A child is not going to understand the intricacies of an advanced katas and it's bunkais.
While there are exceptions children are good copyers. The may learn the techniques and perform them well, but won't have the same capacity of understanding.

[DragonMind]

Kids are not short adults. They learn differently from adults. Not slower, differently. Not only that, kids of different ages learn differently. Trying to teach them the same way as adults is doing them a grave disservice. There is a tremendous body of literature on child development and anyone teaching kids should be familiar with it.

[Abbax8]

If you say kids are you talking 5 year olds or 12 year olds. In judo, I have no problem teaching 12 and up. Below 12, I try to to keep it say 5 to 12. No the ages are not cut in stone. In somethings most kids will exceed most adults, stamina and flexability in particular. Strength goes to adults between the ages of 18 to say 50.

I have taught rather large mixed groups, 40 plus, judo, but in that case it was a Judo Club, not just a Judo class. There was a comaraderie and support among the people cheering each others success, from the 5 year old doing Seoi-Nage to the 75 year old doing Tomoe-Nage. I now teach a very small club, adults and teens. I would include a kid in the class, it would just depend on the kid.

Peace

Dennis

[Rasputin]

Having had a taste of teaching both adults and children, I can tell you with confidence that most children lack the attention span, focus, and desire to learn that most adults have. Even the most lackluster adult beginning to learn our jujutsu invests more in the process than the most dedicated beginning child.

You also have to add to this a factor that is not likely to be a problem for most commercial dojo--being affiliated with the YMCA means that we become a dumping ground for the parents to drop their kids off instead of sticking them in the day care facility. I have seen dozens of children wandering around in a daze on the mat, not paying any attention, missing the simplest of commands.

If the fate of the kids' class were in my hands, I would close it down in a heartbeat and roll the most dedicated and able kids into our adult class, then extend the adults back to the 2 hours 3x a week that it used to be instead of the 1.5 hrs on Tuesday and Thursday. I know the reasons that we have the kids' class, I just feel differently than Robert on this topic. Luckily for the little kneebiters, that decision is not mine to make.

[DragonMind]

Having had a taste of teaching both adults and children, I can tell you with confidence that most children lack the attention span, focus, and desire to learn that most adults have.
Dave,

Yes they are not adults. They don't lack those things, they are just different. What has to change is not their development but your teaching style if you want to work with kids. Not a lot of MA teachers have what it takes to be good kids' teachers. Nothing wrong with that but please don't blame the kids for not being something they can't be. You spark their interest and connect with a kid and I guarantee you'll see a focus and desire to learn that adults wish they could achieve. You'll have to talk to the kid to get them to STOP trianining so much! :laugh: And that's not just the gifted ones. They actually train less than the ones who know they have to work at it but you've inspired them to do so.

[Rasputin]

Barry,

I wish it were that easy. The kid's class is about an hour long, the first half of which is learning ukemi (so no chance to connect there) and the last 10 minutes is spent with them doing randori and chicken fighting. 95% of the kids don't bother to show up for the Saturday class, so that leaves 2 20-minute sessions a week to try and connect with up to 15 children, a substantial portion of which are milling about not paying any attention.

Keep in mind, this is for free. Nobody is getting paid to teach here at the YMCA.

Who knows? Perhaps it is just me. I am far from being the expert in teaching martial arts to children.

[DragonMind]

Barry,

I wish it were that easy. The kid's class is about an hour long, the first half of which is learning ukemi (so no chance to connect there) and the last 10 minutes is spent with them doing randori and chicken fighting. 95% of the kids don't bother to show up for the Saturday class, so that leaves 2 20-minute sessions a week to try and connect with up to 15 children, a substantial portion of which are milling about not paying any attention.

Keep in mind, this is for free. Nobody is getting paid to teach here at the YMCA.

Who knows? Perhaps it is just me. I am far from being the expert in teaching martial arts to children.
An hour is way too long for a kids class; their attention span can't handle it. How much control do you have over the curriculum? I'd be happy to go off-line and talk about some changes that might help.

[Rasputin]

Barry,

The kid's class is, in all reality, still being taught by The Webdictator Who Must Not Be Named most nights. I get the privelige (and it is indeed that, for all that it makes me want to go biblical on them) of teaching the kid's class and the adult class on most Saturdays and the occasional night when He (see above) is otherwise unable to attend.

I would be interested in hearing any and all of your suggestions, but they would have to remain hypothetical at this point since I will not be the one making any changes to the class for the conceivable future.

Now I need a backpedaling smiley.

[DragonMind]

Better yet, why don't we start a thread on discussing curriculum design for kids classes? I bet a lot of people could use some ideas and we have a number of folks who teach kids that could contribute.

[littlecelt]

I would like to make one request as you build out your curriculum for child classes, etc.
If you get so far as including them in occasional mixed classes with the adults, do you think you could somehow work it into the ‘suggested guidelines’ or such, that the parents or someone of equivalent size and age work with the little angels?

I am constantly ‘blessed’ with the opportunity to work with the youngest child in class. This can range from 4 years to 11 years, male or female with the parent(s) sometimes in the same class. It’s nice that they trust me to work with the kids, yada, yada... I don’t mind this once in awhile, just not every time. Perhaps you guys could put something in your kids curriculum for ‘Playing with the Big Kids’??

[hizaguchi]

I have never experienced the kind of problems the rest of you cite as reasons to keep children and adults in different classes. Maybe I've just been lucky, but we always had kids do everything with the adults. I'd even get on my knees and spar the youngest ones when the other kids didn't challenge them enough. Never felt that the class was too slow. Never saw a kid getting behind. Never had an instructor who wasn't great with the kids. I guess problem kids are out there, and if your school has a hard time keeping them under control then I understand splitting up the classes, but my experience has just been different.

[Eliz]

Brandon,
I'd say you are blessed with the level of patience that I WISH I had.

I don't really think it's an issue of "problem children" as much as intensity of training. Kids do have different needs and, as Kim stated above, adults are frequently picked out to assist the younger students. That is not fair - adults pay to train, too. I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt, I don't want to spend my sparring time mixing it up with a 7 or 8 year old.

Kids require a lot of repetition to learn forms and such. There should be classes specifically for younger students with the necessary assistants on staff to break the classes into smaller groups.

[Kajukembo]

I am new to this forum but have been teaching Kajukembo for several years now and I have to agree with keeping kids seperate. Children do pick up quickly but also require a different approach to being taught. Also, my adult classes are 2 hours long and Kajukembo traditionally is a hard contact art. I find kids stay more interested in shorter classes and the parents seem to prefer seeing their kiddos training with other kids. Just my observation.

Respectfully,
Israel Gonzales - KSDS

[TonyU]

Welcome to Budoseek Israel.

[jjaje]

Israel,

Welcome to Budoseek.

[Andrew Green]

Kid's got great attention spans, as long as it is something they want and they feel challenged by.

Stick a gameboy in front of a 8 year old and see how well it keeps his attention... they become so focused they block everything else out...

But repetition to perfection, that doesn't go over as well...

There needs to be a clear goal, and a clear way of measuring it. With that they can learn very fast, and stay very focused.

Skateboarding is another good example, kids that do it can practice for hours and develop some really impressive skills. But again, they have a goal (land on board after x trick) and can measure it clearly for themself.

It's just a matter of making your classes fit with the way children learn, and getting them to in a sense, teach themselves, make mistakes and explore your curriculum with you guiding them in the right directions.

[DragonMind]

We've started a new thread on designing kids classes. Andrew has added some outstanding ideas. Check it out at http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=114683

[jjaje]

Barry,

That is a good thread, with some great ideas. Thank you.