Soo Do Mahk Ki

[Mr Depew]

I have two questions if I may imbark on all of the MA experiecne and knowledge of the members of this forum.

1. Which is the proper technical procedure for Soo Do mahk ki?

2. What is the functional purpose of soo do mahk ki?

I have my own opinons based on my training and technical experience enhance by many wonderful instructors/Masters willing to share. I take everything from those willing to help me in my training, use what I think makes the most since and save the rest for later understanding.

I would like to here your response to gain more of techincal understanding. Feel free to incorporate any historical information you are willing to share.

The questions are centered around the so many different ways artist demenstrate the soo do mahk ki and the difitions behind the technic, I can undrstand to some degree why different styles many have various methods of this technic, but why does TSD people have so many various forms of soo do mahk ki.

Did we (TSD) not all come from the same roots Master Hwang Kee, it was not that many generations ago the great creator of TSD layed out his technical knowledge before the masses, surely you would think the technical difition would stay the same in it's understanding.

To name a few technical methods and please add more
1. Circular development from the hip throught the shoulder to the center
2. Diamound hand postion direct from the hip to the center
3. Back of hands over/under direct from the hip to the center
4. Foward hand from face, back hand coverage of kidney direct to the center

To name a few functional purposes and please name more.
1. Hip toss
2. Take down
3. Double block
4. Counter block, Kwan soo to throat (my favorite)

I would be most thankful for your input and thank you in advance.

tang soo!

[ChristianTSD]

What you are asking isn't really specific enough for me.....I think you are referring to a knifehand block with the lead hand, and the rear hand guarding the solar plexus area, also in knifehand form? Soo Do Mahk Ki simply means knifehand block, so to give a stupid answer would be easy (Why are there so many ways to knifehand block? Because there are so many ways to be struck, darling...). If this particular technique is what you are referring to, there are different reasons for each different execution. What looks like the same technique in hyung, executed differently, can (in this case anyways) be as varied as an elbow break, a throat attack, or indeed a simple block. Ask a more specific question, and I will try to answer it more specifically.
In Christ,
Phil Stewart
4th Dan Tang Soo Do

[Pale Rider]

I am reading Soo Do Mahki - but what I am getting from the post is Ssang Soo Soo Do Mahki - Am I correct in this assumption? (Like I am doing on my avatar??) <-----

[Kyo Sa Michel Pope]

Sounds like he is talking about Ha dan soo do mahkee (low knife hand block). Kyo sa Richards what you are doing in the pic on your Avatar is Choong dan Soo do Mahkee (Middle Knife hand Block). I apologize for correct you. in public sir.. but that is what I was taught all these years..

[Pale Rider]

Actually like I stated - I am doing Ssang Soo Soo Do Mahki (Double Knife Hand block) - but if you want to get really techical - then it is Choong dan Ssang Soo Soo do Mahkee (Middle Level Double Knife Hand Block).

I believe we are both accurate, so really no correction required.

[kbarrett]

Mr. Richard

there's no such technique in Tang Soo Do called Ssang Soo Soo Do Maki (double knife hand block). there's Ha Dan Soo Do Mahk Kee (low kinfe hand block), Choong Dan Soo Do Mahk Kee (center knife hand block) & Sang Dan Soo Do Mahk kee (high knife hand block).

there is a Ssang Soo Sang Dan Mahk Kee ( high x block) in a front stance.

your in tang soo

[Tang-Soo-Architect]

Looks like there's variations in what people are getting taught. In UK TSD Federation and the International TSD Federation, under Grand Master Kang Uk Lee we have the following:

Ssang Soo Sa Dan Mahk Ki: Double hand high block (X block with fists)
Ssang Soo Choon Dan Mahk Ki: The centre section version. Also commonly refered to as Street Defence and isnt an X-block per-se but is more a middle block with the other fist supporting the elbow.
Ssang Soo Ha Dan Mahk Ki: The low section version.

These can also have the prefix Hu Gul Jasse (and so be performed in back stance) - at which point the centre section double block looks more like a Soo Do middle block but with fists rather than the knife hand.

There is also Ssang Soo Soo Do Sa Dan Mahk Ki (plus the other two) where the fists are replaced with knife hands.

So Mr K Barret you are wrong and Mr Richards is right - but Mr Richards you are being naughty by trying to confuse people. It's hardly ever written down or described as such and is nealy always shortened to Soo Do Mahk Ki (with the high medium or low prefix of course).

Similarly we say Ap Podo Cha Ki for front snap kick, but in Korea I've known it to bee refered to as Ap Cha Ki.


NOW ! As for the original question : UKTSDF teaches the knife hand block as a double hand block witht the hands starting in a chamber position at the rear of the torso and moving round in a tight 180 degree arc with of course full hip twist application and rotation of both hands/wrists by 180 deg along thier own polar axis (if that makes sense) to increase power . When complete the leading hand is in a good position to perform a grab and it is often used as such in self defence, and also as described the Middle Soo Do technique can be adapted (please note the word adapted) to perform a grab with the rear hand/throat strike with the lead hand.

Of course the fun part is seeing for yourself what you can use all these hand techniques for. I like to use the high X block as a grab to put someome in an arm bar/wrist lock. I also use the middle soo do as a transition into a cross body arm bar/choke hold.

[Mr Depew]

I greatly appreciate your insite, although I notice a slight difference in dialic

Example: for technic some us Gi and other us Ki, I think this is a dialic, is this correct.

I use these term based on my training

[Tang-Soo-Architect]

It may be a dialect thing. I know that there are differences between how a lot of Uk based organisations write the Korean down phonetically - maybe this has come through translation form the respective Grand Masters.

[Mr Depew]

Tang-Soo-Architect, I was wandering do you know Master Mujahid Khan of Great Britain Tang Soo Do, He is the WTSDA Regioal Director for Western Europe, According to his Bio he has been in TSD for 30 years and operating his Dojang for 20 years in the UK. I think he has 7 or 8 dojangs accross the UK.

Our Org believes TSD a formulation of 60% Soo Dohk Do, 30% Northern China Kung Fu, and 10% Southern Kung Fu.

What is your take on TSD influenece?

[kbarrett]

Mr. Depew

I'm not wrong about the Soo Do Mahk Ki's. If notice in GM Hwang Kee's Book you will notice his son GM H. C. Hwang doing only 3 Soo Do Mahk Ki's 1) Ha Dan Soo Do Mahk Ki 2) Sang Dan Soo Do Mahk Ki 3)Choong Dan Soo Do Mahk Ki. There not other Soo Do Mahk Ki' mention or shown as you and Mr. Richards would have everybody believeing.

There is a Ssang Soo Ha Dan Mahk Ki which is a low x block with the fists closed, and there is a Ssang Soo Sang Dan Mahk ki which is a high x block with the hands open. There are not others.

I have been studing Tang Soo Do for a very long time and have had the honor to train with some great Instructors, who where in the old Moo Duk Kwan Fed. and trained under either GM Hwang Kee himself or his son GM H.C. Hwang. So if i'm doing it worng then they are doing it wrong also, which I don't believe they are.

One last note, the Soo Do Mahk Ki isn't really a blocking technique, it's a grabbing and twisting of the wrist, while striking the neck or groin at the sametime technique. So please do not disrespect me by saying i'm doing it wrong and you and Mr. Richards are doing correctly and that Richards shouldn't be misleading people, I was all in likely doing TSD long before both of you.

Thank You Tang Soo!

[Mr Depew]

Mr. Barrett

I re-read the entire string and do not see in any of my post I said anyone was wrong, My post are only about receiving insight on Soo Do Mahk Ki from others like yourself to help me gain more knowledge and understanding.

I can not and will not speak for any of the other post.

The (3) Ssang Soo Do Mahk Ki blocks you mention I completely agree with and have also been trained in the same understanding that you have detailed.

My post were mainly in reference to my personal viewing of the different ways Soo Do Mahk Ki is done not so much Ssang Soo Do Mahk Ki.

Being Disrespectful is agaisnt my religion, if I somehow did it was certainly not intended and I immediately appoligize.

[kbarrett]

Mr. Depew

One of the really nice things about a place like Budoseek is that martial artist can talk about different things with each other with out their ego's getting in the way.

We are both Tang Soo Do regardless of anything else, so let put this at an end so we can just continue training and sharing a martial art we both can't get enough of which is Tang Soo Do.

As a fellow brother in Tang Soo Do, one way I may be able to help you is with insight, do not just learn and take any technique for just the way it is, look really deep into every technique and find out how is really works. By doing this you'll find another whole insight into Tang Soo Do that you may or may not be aware of, look at the way you free spar and the way you apply any technique and you'll start to notice that there's more than whats on the surface.

Your Friend in Tang Soo!
Ken

[Tang-Soo-Architect]

Mr. Depew

I'm not wrong about the Soo Do Mahk Ki's. If notice in GM Hwang Kee's Book you will notice his son GM H. C. Hwang doing only 3 Soo Do Mahk Ki's 1) Ha Dan Soo Do Mahk Ki 2) Sang Dan Soo Do Mahk Ki 3)Choong Dan Soo Do Mahk Ki. There not other Soo Do Mahk Ki' mention or shown as you and Mr. Richards would have everybody believeing.

Actually it was me Mr Barret, and I apologise if I offended your sensibilities. However I did state that I was talking specifically about UKTSDF at the beginning of my post and also stated that it seemed people were being taught different things.
My Grand Master Lee Kang Uk (Dan no. 70)was trained directly by GM Hwang Kee, and in fact was his bodyguard for many years, and I have trained with him a few times, though my own Master is third generation. I too am sure that they were taught correctly in the art and have passed this knowledge onto thier students - but as with Tang Soo Do, which by definition is a progressive art, new techniques may have stemmed from the old to be taught alongside them.

I do not own the book you are speaking of, but do own my Grand Masters book and of course my federation membership record book, both of which have a glossary of terms within them. The record book actually has a few more than the training manual and neither have all the techniques; jumping double front kick is not mentioned and while Han Pal Son Bah Dan Euro Noo Roo Kee is shown as part of Chil Sung Il Ro Hyungit is not refered to anywhere else in the training manual or anywhere at all in the membership book, for example.

In your original post you describe the low knife hand as Ha Dan Soo Do Mahk Kee. Within my federation it would be Soo Do Ha Dan Mahk Kee. So we see that there are differences between federations in the way techniques are written down.

Whether certain techniques were missing from GM Hwang Kee's book (maybe due to space limitations) or whether they were modifications on techniques that have found there way into some federations and not others I do not know. It seems clear to me that Mr Richards teachings included similar techniques to which I have been taught. I therefore stand by the information within my first post.


Cheers!

[kbarrett]

Mr. Depew I send you my sincere apologizes. Tang Soo!!

Mr. Swaby, I to must stand by my reply, that I'm also doing the Soo Do Mahk Ki' correctly, as I was tought by my Instructor's. I have seen the original copy of GM Hwang Kee's first book writen back in the early 70's and everything is indentical to the copies of today's books.

Which are the same as tought by the Soo Bahk Do/Tang Soo Do Federation and the Tang Soo Do Mi Guk Kwan Association.

As you said it would seem that each Federation is doing them differently. But to state that I'm wrong in the way that I do the Soo Do Mahk Ki's would also be incorrect.

But to me the Soo Do Mahk Ki isn't just a blocking technique, it is a twisting of the wrist and striking the groin, neck, throat, or any place else technique. I'm sure you have sparred, think about this how many time have to really use this type of block when sparring, most likely never.

So let draw this to a close and just say we each do it differently and that we're both studying a martial art Tang Soo Do that we just can get enough of, and leave it at that.

Yours In Tang Soo
Ken!

[Mr Depew]

Gentleman

I and proud to know that even though many of us have differances minor as they are, we are brothers in TSD. Even though TSD has went many ways we all continue hold the core values of TSD dear to are hearts, this is what will always keep use togeather in TSD.

Tang Soo!

[Pale Rider]

Sorry for the delay on my part in replying.

If we examine levels (or areas) such as Ha Dan (low) Sang Dan (High) or Choong Dan (middle) - we can agree there,

Then lets look at the other aspects - ssang soo - to me means double hands

You can do a Ahnesi Pahkero Soo Do Mahki (Inside to outside knife hand block) without using the other hand. If we examine (middle knife hand blocks) - there are in actuality 2 different kinds (out to in, and in to out) so really there is no use to saying Choong Dan Soo Do Mahki (which could be very confusing as to which one - in/out or out/in?)

If performing any double hand strikes - how would you word it to where it wouldn't be confused with the singular version?


That is the question?


Mr. Richard

there's no such technique in Tang Soo Do called Ssang Soo Soo Do Maki (double knife hand block). there's Ha Dan Soo Do Mahk Kee (low kinfe hand block), Choong Dan Soo Do Mahk Kee (center knife hand block) & Sang Dan Soo Do Mahk kee (high knife hand block).

there is a Ssang Soo Sang Dan Mahk Kee ( high x block) in a front stance.

your in tang soo