View Full Version : new Hapkido weapon defense technique
flyingeagle
07-26-2005, 08:12
see
weapon technique (http://www.jlim.net/Gallery/mpegs/vi02r021.mpeg)
weapon technique2 (http://www.jlim.net/Gallery/mpegs/vi02r021.mpeg)
will u do the same ? no? why ?
how u do differen or betta ?
hyungseok hang
Hyung seok Hang,
I'm not quite understanding the point of your post. You wrote.
New Hapkido weapon defense technique
I don't see what is so new about it. I've seen that technique in alot of different martial arts. Mainly NOT Hapkido, but Chinese martial arts, and Filipino martial arts.
DragonMind
07-26-2005, 13:52
see
weapon technique (http://www.jlim.net/Gallery/mpegs/vi02r021.mpeg)
weapon technique2 (http://www.jlim.net/Gallery/mpegs/vi02r021.mpeg)
will u do the same ? no? why ?
how u do differen or betta ?
hyungseok hang
Unrealistic attack, so any defense is as good as any other. Nonetheless, I think the defender used very poor body positioning. I suspect from the tone and the looks of the other folks, they were just goofing around anyways.
flyingeagle
07-26-2005, 19:45
sir mcconnel & sir moksha
how about this one
weapon techniq 3 (http://www.jlim.net/Gallery/mpegs/vi02r012.mpeg)
very common scenario. possible to happen
mentioned my view on movie at other thread. no good
how u do differen or betta ?
Hyung Seok Hang,
This was one of the videos I saw earlier. It is not the best way to do things. The master moves right in front of the knife. The attacker could have stabbed him at any point during that technique. If this is being taught to military, I hope they never have to engaged in hand to hand combat.
I think the assumption is the defender would be less vulnerable after back-fisting/groin striking the attacker. I think that is a dangerous assumption.
My GM has a thing for covering the eyes of the attacker. He would have had us go behind the attacker, push the lower back/hips forward while pulling the head back (forearm over the eyes). Hard to accurately describe in words, but it is a very fast, effective take down.
DragonMind
07-27-2005, 08:42
Another example of an unrealistic attack. This is what dismays me so much about so-called knife defenses in so many arts. They have no idea how to really use a knife so they invent all these silly attacks just to show off a defense that would never work in the first place. Knife disarms just don't happen in reality and if you want to know why, I have a simple exercise for you. Disarm a blender. If you don't want to get that extreme, have your partner use a Sharpie marking pen as their blade and tell them to attack you any way they want. See how many "cuts" you end up with trying these silly defenses.
Barrie,
I see your point. My view is when it comes to knife disarms, yes cuts are bound to happen. But I would rather come out with a couple of cuts on my arm, then to position myself where the knife would stab my vital organs. Which is what I was addressing in that video. I have been cut before. When we do knife defense from 1st-2nd Dan, we use a real Tanto blade. And it's sharpe. But like I said, I don't mind getting a few cuts, aslong as I survive the attack.
Musubi Dojo
07-27-2005, 12:49
Disarm a blender. If you don't want to get that extreme, have your partner use a Sharpie marking pen as their blade and tell them to attack you any way they want. See how many "cuts" you end up with trying these silly defenses.
LOL on the blender.
I've done the sharpie marker thing many times and and it's really scary. You close to grapple without controling the knife and suddenly you're a pin cushion. You hang back and wait for a commited attack and he knicks your hands and arms to pieces. If the guy is dumb enough to eventually give you his arm great, you can twist, break, throw, whatever.
We've had good luck kicking the legs to distract so you can attach the knife hand, but it's all really risky. Also after you've kicked the legs once or twice knife guy catches on and starts cutting your legs. One thing we did find is that guy with the knife tends to think only about the knife leaving you free to use elbows, knees, forehead against undefendeded targets. This is sparring of course, I've never actually done this someone who's trying to kill me. (Thank God)
That third technique was just pathetic...Did he administer a sedative to the attacker before hand? :rolleyes:
Cheers
c
I think these guys were screwing around.
Nobody can be that bad when they're really serious about something, can they?
DragonMind
07-27-2005, 15:30
One of the reasons I started studying Arnis was to learn how to use a knife properly as my primary tool, not as an "extension of my unarmed techniques". Ray Dionaldo showed me VERY quickly that the two are not equivalent. In the hands of someone who knows how to use a knife (note I did not say fight with a knife), 99% of the techniques I've ever seen in my 40 years of MA training would result in a DOA. Too many MA teachers think blade usage is a sparring match. It isn't. Darren Levine has done a lot of forensic research on knife assaults. Did you know that the average knife victim has more than 20 cuts? The fight is usually over in less than 5 seconds?
I fully agree that taking a cut on my arms to prevent the neck cut is a good trade. The trouble is, a savvy knife fighter is going to cut you repeatedly until they force an opening to a vital spot. Most defenses assume that they will stop the blade on the first cut and control it from then on. Doesn't happen.
Just for fun one time, Ray Dionaldo and Rico Cortez went at it full speed with blades for 1 minute. We filmed it and then counted the cuts. Ray had over 80 cuts on Rico in 1 minute and a full third of them would have been fatal. Rico landed over 60 himself. Empty-handed wouldn't have stood a chance.
Barry,
You made some good points. However if you take the percentage of people on the street that have attacked someone with a knife, I garantee the percentage of those people would not know how to use a knife to save there ***. The majority of the time, it is used as an intimidation. Now I do see your point when refering to two people that do know how to use a knife go head to head. But, how often does that really happen? I'm not discrediting your post, it makes alot of sense. But, the common mugger is probably not going to know the details of using a knife correctly. I'm not saying that's always the case. Which is why if you do decide to defend your self empty hand it better be a pretty devistating technique. You have to instill fear in the attacker because that's all they understand. Thoughts?
Barry, I think you've made some excellent points in your posts. I always like to see a trained martial artist who is very wary of knife defenses - I think that's the only way to approach this. Even though I agree with Mike that the average knife assailant in the street probably has no formal training, imo he still has a huge advantage over an unarmed opponent, even over people like us, who train regularly in knife defense.
In order for a knife defense to work without your getting injured, everything has to go right for you. You have to perceive the attack, avoid it, control the knife limb and disarm / incapacitate the attacker. Kind of like hitting a 98-mph fastball with movement on it. I think the odds of all of those things happening for you in a real attack are very slim. It's just too unpredictable.
As I say, we train knife defenses regularly, and there is a ten-technique set of knife defenses against different attacks in our 2nd dan curriculum. However, I do NOT feel confident that I could successfully pull one off against a commited thug, even if he has no formal training - after all, he's probably got enough real-life street training to get thru your defense. imo the number one knife defense it run like hell if you can.
The thought of facing a real blade gives me chills, and I hope it stays that way. I'll continue to train knife defenses, but I really hope I never start to feel confident that I have better-than-even odds of making them work.
flyingeagle
07-28-2005, 19:36
sir erik
[Nobody can be that bad when they're really serious about something, can they?]
master julian s lim = person doing the techniq in bad movies
one bad movie got signboard
say KOMA SEAPAC Hapkido CQC seminar
CQC = close quarter combat
many CQC seminar taught to army people (fort benning?)
also taught black belt people
seminar need pay big money
master julian s lim = 8th degree Korean Hapkido Federation
also 8th degree Korea Kidohae
please look at cert at website www.jlim.net
DragonMind
07-29-2005, 10:04
Barry,
You made some good points. However if you take the percentage of people on the street that have attacked someone with a knife, I garantee the percentage of those people would not know how to use a knife to save there ***. The majority of the time, it is used as an intimidation. Now I do see your point when refering to two people that do know how to use a knife go head to head. But, how often does that really happen? I'm not discrediting your post, it makes alot of sense. But, the common mugger is probably not going to know the details of using a knife correctly. I'm not saying that's always the case. Which is why if you do decide to defend your self empty hand it better be a pretty devistating technique. You have to instill fear in the attacker because that's all they understand. Thoughts?
You and Howard bring up good points, but I doubt there are any real statistics to support the idea that muggers don't know what they're doing with a blade.
The LEOs and blade specialists I've talked to seem to agree that more often the criminal using a knife DOES know how to use it. It's kind of a Darwinian thing. Usually, between the streets, gangs, and prisons they have learned the hard way how to use a knife because they've probably had to survive a few knife encounters. If you're talking about a crack-head out to score some quick cash, you're probably right that it is an intimidation tool only. The problem with those clowns is they are often so high, they don't feel your technique! :eek: The other thing is it is hard to tell the difference sometimes. Personal choice, I'm not going to take the chance and I'll treat them both the same.
You and Howard bring up good points, but I doubt there are any real statistics to support the idea that muggers don't know what they're doing with a blade.
Hi Barry, I have actually seen one study of bladed weapon attacks, based on research in correctional facilities somewhere in the Midwest, I believe. It's a pretty well-done work, with lots of data points. I'll try to find a link for it and post it... the major conclusion of the study was that about 85% of the COs who were attacked in prison with a bladed weapon never knew they were being attacked until they had been injured. And these are guys who are trained to, at the very least, expect such attacks. It's a very sobering read.
The LEOs and blade specialists I've talked to seem to agree that more often the criminal using a knife DOES know how to use it. It's kind of a Darwinian thing. Usually, between the streets, gangs, and prisons they have learned the hard way how to use a knife because they've probably had to survive a few knife encounters. If you're talking about a crack-head out to score some quick cash, you're probably right that it is an intimidation tool only. The problem with those clowns is they are often so high, they don't feel your technique! :eek: The other thing is it is hard to tell the difference sometimes. Personal choice, I'm not going to take the chance and I'll treat them both the same.
You said it better than I could. Your first point is one that I was trying to make - a lot of these thugs have learned enough rough-and-tumble street knife fighting to carve most of us up before we could disarm them. Not really very different from the street fistfighters, who have literally learned from the school of hard knocks.
My personal belief, any time somebody pulls any kind of weapon on you, believe that he will use it, give up whatever you have (car, wallet, package - none of those things are irreplaceable) and hope to live to see another day. Maybe that's because I'm going on 52 and have mellowed over the years, and have enough sense to realize that any young thug with an knife has a huge advantage over me in a physical encounter, regardless of my training, but that's my take on things.
Regards, Howard
sidekick
07-31-2005, 14:05
Correctional Institutions are a lousy place to do any blade study. Why? Because you will not find the a-typical blade. You will find tooth brushes sharpened or it will have a small piece of a shaving razor melted into it. There are other numerous home made weapons that are designed to cut. The major problem, if you haven't watched any of the info reality shows on TV that go into jails and prisons, is that the guards are out numbered drasticly. Even though they are trained to expect such attacks, there are too many distractions ongoing to be totally focused on just that.
As has been previously pointed out, our training or at least mine, is geared toward the street thug who is using the blade as an intimidation tool. Even if you should find yourself against the so-called Zorro of the blade, there are a few, granted very few, things that can be used against this type of attacker, that can and do work to either allow you to counter or get your butt out of there. Personally I prefer the later. :D
As far as just giving into the perpertrator and hoping to see another day, well that's an individuals choice. I have mentioned this before but it bears repeating here. The Justice Department released one of their statistical summaries back around 10 to 15 years ago. They stated that anyone involved in a wepons confrontation / mugging - holdup, stood a 50/50 chance of not being wounded or killed. That was many moons ago and I'm sure that those figures have sinced changed for the worse. Personally, I feel that anything I can do via my training, only increases the prospect of moving those odds a little or a lot into my favor.
The one thing that I do realize and some folks here have already touched on the subject, is that an awful lot of the so called blade defensive tactics and techniques that are being shown to a lot of folks is pure unadulterated horse pucky. The main problem with this type of training is that the VAST MAJORITY is theory driven. Those that have had an encounter will tell you post haste that what they did was very simple and very direct and it didn't take them years to learn it or show umpteen variations of how to hopefully do it.
All that being said, I hope nobody here every finds themself in that situation.
Mike Dunn
if you want good knife defense buy a gun.
That's the best advice I have heard so far Jade...
flyingeagle
07-31-2005, 20:29
see Training tips
see January February Training tips
this no goofing around
this Hapkido Weapon [Training tips]
demonstrate by Black Belt Tony
Tony Master julian sucessor
demonstrate by Black Belt Sharon
woman fight guy like that
how to survive ?
American HKD
07-31-2005, 22:04
Moderators
PLease get rid of this flying eagle he's a trouble maker and no one knows who he is?
Thank You
flyingeagle
08-01-2005, 01:15
sir rosenberg,
have u see julian movies website ?
am not troublemaker
have state name
have state master family name
have state where work
am showing the truth
let facts speak itself
let bad movies speak itself
am sad to see Sir like u teach good techniq
and many hapkidoin low rank teach better techniq
but 8 dan Asian teach bad techniq
i luv Hapkido
do not want see Hapkido bad reputation
please use common sense
sir understand ?
Moderators
PLease get rid of this flying eagle he's a trouble maker and no one knows who he is?
Thank You
I think that Stu is being a bit rough on Flying eagle! He has stated more information than most of the members on here!
This kind of thing is a no win situation for Flying eagle as no matter the proof he has he will be shut down and ridiculed for calling someone to task for there high rank! To me I think most of us know that Hapkido is full of false credentials and that no matter what rank one claims you have to see their technique and when that is done just do not recomend people to train with them. I think we all should just move on from here as the material in question has already shown what it is! :bow:
Take care,
American HKD
08-01-2005, 07:22
sir rosenberg,
have u see julian movies website ?
am not troublemaker
have state name
have state master family name
have state where work
am showing the truth
let facts speak itself
let bad movies speak itself
am sad to see Sir like u teach good techniq
and many hapkidoin low rank teach better techniq
but 8 dan Asian teach bad techniq
i luv Hapkido
do not want see Hapkido bad reputation
please use common sense
sir understand ?
Greetings,
We all know what you said and understand your opinion.
Please drop it and talk about something positive.
American HKD
08-01-2005, 07:24
I think that Stu is being a bit rough on Flying eagle! He has stated more information than most of the members on here!
This kind of thing is a no win situation for Flying eagle as no matter the proof he has he will be shut down and ridiculed for calling someone to task for there high rank! To me I think most of us know that Hapkido is full of false credentials and that no matter what rank one claims you have to see their technique and when that is done just do not recomend people to train with them. I think we all should just move on from here as the material in question has already shown what it is! :bow:
Take care,
We all heard him!
How many times is he going to say the same thing until it's personal bashing?
I say that's enough FWIW.
DragonMind
08-01-2005, 08:04
Mr. Hang,
You have made 14 posts now and every single one has been an attempt to discredit Julian Lim. We have watched the videos and given our opinions of them. It is time to move on to something else. Any further posts regarding Julian Lim will simply mean you are not interested in good Hapkido, but in insulting Lim. That will be grounds for canceling your privileges here. I hope that is clear.
KudaraTaekwon
08-17-2005, 09:28
I just wanted to inform you guys that this flyingeagle guy is definately not Korean.
First of all, "Hang" is not even a Korean family name. It simply does not exist in Korea. Trust me on this one.
Sure, his first name sounds Korean enough. I guess he knows 'somewhat' of Korean names, just enough to fool you guys.
I don't know what this guy is trying to do by pretending to be a Korean. But it kinds of insults me in a way that this person is faking bad English and a juvenile behaviour, while pretending to be Korean and claiming to live in Seoul.
I'm assuming he's just one of those who like to bash Koreans. I've seen enough of those in other forums.
DragonMind
08-18-2005, 13:20
The situation is being dealt with by the proper authorities.
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