Japanese names for moves.

[Tribalweapon]

Can anyone point me in the direction of a good book or website that shows the Japanese names for the basic moves (reverse punch, front kick, knife hand, etc). I did a quick search on here but couldn't find anything and my karate experience consists of about 3 classes.

Thanks in advance

Chris Robert

[RickMatz]

I would advise you to take lots of notes.

[Bengel]

http://www.lyon-karate.com/karate_terminology.php

Try this for starters.

[De_Franza]

This might help.
One caviat (sp?): some schools use different terms, but this should be a good basic intro.

[Kimpatsu]

This might help.
One caviat (sp?): some schools use different terms, but this should be a good basic intro.
Bill, having looked over your list, I can comment on two general entries (after all, the Karate entries mean nothing to me); but:
(1) There is no Japanese word "gi". There may be some Anglicised nonsense to that effect, but "gi" is impossible in Japanese, as the character is pronounced "ki", as in "kimono". The "k" only hardens to a "g" if there is a preceding syllable, so whilt "dogi" is acceptable, "gi" alone is not.
(2) A senior student is called "seMpai" (with an "m"). Whilst "senpai" may appear technically correct, as with words like "shimbun" (newspaper) and "kempo", there is a Japanese convention to use "m". No one says "shinbun" or "senpai".
HTH.

[Tribalweapon]

Thanks for your help guys

[Gene Williams]

I have always liked the book, "Karate Do: The Art of Empty Hand Fighting," by Nishiyama and Brown. It is a Shotokan book, and a damned good one. The lists of terms and the names of stances and techniques are very good. Also, you won't find better demonstrations of the stances and techniques than those that Nishiyama demonstrates in the book. I'm Shito ryu, but I tell my students if they want to know what a cat stance and a sanchin stance should look like, copy Nishiyama's in that book. I think it is a must have book for anyone.

[Bugeisha]

(1) There is no Japanese word "gi". There may be some Anglicised nonsense to that effect, but "gi" is impossible in Japanese, as the character is pronounced "ki", as in "kimono". The "k" only hardens to a "g" if there is a preceding syllable, so whilt "dogi" is acceptable, "gi" alone is not.


Thanks, Tony! I've been trying to remember why keikogi and dogi are acceptable and "gi" is not. I feel like an idiot for not realizing the reason earlier.

[Kimpatsu]

No problem, Dillon.
Next up, why Westerners mispronounce "karate" as "kuhrotty"... ;) :D

[Gene Williams]

No problem, Dillon.
Next up, why Westerners mispronounce "karate" as "kuhrotty"... ;) :D

"Gi" is fine...even Japanese and Okinawans say it. Call it slang, as in "jeans" for blue jeans, or "tux" for tuxedo. Tony is what we call an obsessional personality type. Either that or he is substituting unrelenting argument for quality budo. Either way, he may safely be ignored :wink2:

[De_Franza]

Bill, having looked over your list, I can comment on two general entries (after all, the Karate entries mean nothing to me); but:
(1) There is no Japanese word "gi". There may be some Anglicised nonsense to that effect, but "gi" is impossible in Japanese, as the character is pronounced "ki", as in "kimono". The "k" only hardens to a "g" if there is a preceding syllable, so whilt "dogi" is acceptable, "gi" alone is not.
(2) A senior student is called "seMpai" (with an "m"). Whilst "senpai" may appear technically correct, as with words like "shimbun" (newspaper) and "kempo", there is a Japanese convention to use "m". No one says "shinbun" or "senpai".
HTH.

Yeah, at all schools I've trained at previously it was seMpai... good to know about "gi". Thanks!

[Kimpatsu]

"Gi" is fine...even Japanese and Okinawans say it.
No, they bloody well do not, Gene. Find me any native speaker who says "gi" in conversation. Just one.
Where on earth did you learn your Japanese?

[Gene Williams]

Kota Higioshi, Shogo Kuniba, Morio Higaonna, Ryuto Takizawa, Fumio Demura, and Jiro Otsuka.

[Kimpatsu]

Kota Higioshi, Shogo Kuniba, Morio Higaonna, Ryuto Takizawa, Fumio Demura, and Jiro Otsuka.
So, when you were speaking to them in Japanese, they said "gi" instead of "dogi", did they?
I don't believe you.

[Gene Williams]

Nope, they said it in English. They aren't as obsessional as you, nor are they so insecure that they must condescend to others through such bizarre pedantry and phony hauteur.

[Kimpatsu]

Nope, they said it in English. They aren't as obsessional as you, nor are they so insecure that they must condescend to others through such bizarre pedantry and phony hauteur.
Actually, Gene, what they're doing is insulting you.
One Shorinji Kempo master with a good command of English switched from using "dogi" to "gi" when talking to certain Western Kesnhi who couldn't pick up the subtle hint of his constant use of "dogi". When I asked him why he was pandering to their incorrect terminology, he waved his hand vaguely in their direction and said, "Because they're too stupid to get it".
When a Japanese master uses "gi" (and note, he would only ever do so in English, NOT Japanese, which is the lingua franca of MA), he's condescending to you.
Do you really want to be thought of as stupid, Gene?

[Gene Williams]

The people I named are not condescending. They are simply adjusting to English speaking people and students. If they had wanted us to use "dogi" or "keikogi," they would have insisted on it, just like they insisted upon proper kata names, proper names of technique, and proper etiquette. Do you want to be thought of as a butthole?

[Kimpatsu]

The people I named are not condescending. They are simply adjusting to English speaking people and students. If they had wanted us to use "dogi" or "keikogi," they would have insisted on it, just like they insisted upon proper kata names, proper names of technique, and proper etiquette. Do you want to be thought of as a butthole?
How would you know? You don't speak Japanese.
But in your second sentence, you blow the gaff. If they're goign to use proper kata names, technical names, etc., why this one exception, unless they're dumbing down, for you? The truth is that the rot is too widespread, so they've given up trying to do anythign about it. Ask them next time you get the chance what the Japanese word is, and they'll tell you "dogi/keikogi". Not "gi". So, they clearly are dumbing down for all of you.

[Gene Williams]

How do you know they aren't "dumbing up" for you so they don't have to listen to you piss and whine? :D

[Eldritch Knight]

I'm gonna have to agree with Tony here. When I moved to Japan and had my first kendo lesson, I asked my fellow kendoka how to wear the gi (in my broken Japanese at the time). They just stood there for a few seconds, wondering what I meant by "gi", until one finally realized that I meant "dougi", and immediately corrected me. Not once have I heard a Japanese speaker refer to it as a "gi", not only in speaking to me, but also amongst each other. Tony isn't exaggerating when he says that the Japanese were dumbing down the language when using "gi" over in the West. A very similar thing happens when you see them do nothing about correcting the superfluous "ossu" in American karate classes, keeping in mind that the word has a very specific usage and place in Japanese.

[Webmaster]

I'm gonna have to agree with Tony here. When I moved to Japan and had my first kendo lesson, I asked my fellow kendoka how to wear the gi (in my broken Japanese at the time). They just stood there for a few seconds, wondering what I meant by "gi", until one finally realized that I meant "dougi", and immediately corrected me. Not once have I heard a Japanese speaker refer to it as a "gi", not only in speaking to me, but also amongst each other. Tony isn't exaggerating when he says that the Japanese were dumbing down the language when using "gi" over in the West. A very similar thing happens when you see them do nothing about correcting the superfluous "ossu" in American karate classes, keeping in mind that the word has a very specific usage and place in Japanese.
Jason,

Just a quick note, but Osu means, well, nothing. It has not any specific use in Japanese or any other language. It is merely used as a greeting or acknowledgement (and it is used excessively in some places). One of the interesting comparisons I have heard regarding the word is it is kinda like saying "yo". There is a long discussion on the subject of Osu over at E-Budo. Check it out at http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6648

[Cliff Hargrave]

How do you know they aren't "dumbing up" for you so they don't have to listen to you piss and whine? :D


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[Kimpatsu]

How do you know they aren't "dumbing up" for you so they don't have to listen to you piss and whine? :D
As "dumbing up" is an oxymoron, Gene, your argument falls at the first hurdle. If this is the most coherent argument you can muster, you need to go back to basics. Or are you doing this just to antagonise me? :rolleyes: ;)
---
Another thing has occurred to me, while I've been off watching a documentary featuring Michio Kaku. (Not related, I know, but maybe it got my little grey cells ticking over.)
Before you started MA, presumably you didn't know words like uwauke, chidori ashi, irimi, jun zuki, etc. (Or whatever the karate equivalents are), names of kata, etc. You did, however, know the non-word "gi". As this word is already engraved in your mind, and not even Japanese instructors can break the hold the meme has over you, they've chosen to ignore it. The acid test, however, is whether, when you first learned "gi", you beleived it to be the Japanese word for "uniform". Because if yes, then you have proven my point that your use of it is in error. And if no, you knew it wasn't Japanese, then WTF do you persist in using it... unless you use English throughout your training, and say, for example, "reverse punch" and "roundhouse kick", rather than "gyaku zuki" and "mawashi geri"? What say you?

[Kimpatsu]

Jason,

Just a quick note, but Osu means, well, nothing. It has not any specific use in Japanese or any other language. It is merely used as a greeting or acknowledgement (and it is used excessively in some places). One of the interesting comparisons I have heard regarding the word is it is kinda like saying "yo". There is a long discussion on the subject of Osu over at E-Budo. Check it out at http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6648
Hi, Robert.
I think "osu" is a corruption of "ohayo gozaimasu"; it comes out as "osu" from the mouths of caffeine-starved salarymen at the start of the working day, when they're feeling grumpy after the hellish Tokyo commute and lack the energy to muster a full sentence.

[Rasputin]

<pulling up a chair>

This looks like it is shaping up to be a good one. Anyone want a :toast:?

[Mandeigh Wells]

<pulling up a chair>

This looks like it is shaping up to be a good one. Anyone want a :toast:?

:toast: Yup.....I am just waiting for the scientific evidence that proves once and for all that a gi doesn't exist!!! :laugh: :laugh:

:whack: :whack:

[Gene Williams]

As "dumbing up" is an oxymoron, Gene, your argument falls at the first hurdle. If this is the most coherent argument you can muster, you need to go back to basics. Or are you doing this just to antagonise me? :rolleyes: ;)
---
Another thing has occurred to me, while I've been off watching a documentary featuring Michio Kaku. (Not related, I know, but maybe it got my little grey cells ticking over.)
Before you started MA, presumably you didn't know words like uwauke, chidori ashi, irimi, jun zuki, etc. (Or whatever the karate equivalents are), names of kata, etc. You did, however, know the non-word "gi". As this word is already engraved in your mind, and not even Japanese instructors can break the hold the meme has over you, they've chosen to ignore it. The acid test, however, is whether, when you first learned "gi", you beleived it to be the Japanese word for "uniform". Because if yes, then you have proven my point that your use of it is in error. And if no, you knew it wasn't Japanese, then WTF do you persist in using it... unless you use English throughout your training, and say, for example, "reverse punch" and "roundhouse kick", rather than "gyaku zuki" and "mawashi geri"? What say you?



My first instructor was a Japanese man named Kota Higioshi. I had no idea what the name for "uniform" was in Japanese. He always called it a "gi," and he was right off the boat and barely spoke English. Of course, he may have smiled to himself as we might at someone from another country taking shortcuts with our language. We often deliberately use shortcuts in language FOR THE BENEFIT OF OTHERS and not out of scorn or condescension which, being the only motives you understand, are the only motives you are capable of imputing.


PS You have once again misspelled "believed." This has occurred in several of your posts now, which makes me wonder if you have forgotten the little mnemonic we all learned as children. You should pay more attention to these fine points than to your insane hooting and braying regarding such minutiae as "gi."

[De_Franza]

But Tony really does have a better understanding of Science than most people.
The word "theory" is really abused and misunderstood in common everyday speech vs. actual scientific use, as are the concepts of 'peer review' and replicable results.

Dave Lowry wrote a column about using correct Japanese language and how most Japanese that don't do it them selves are in fact, condescending to us and assuming we are stupid gaijin (they forget that if they're in our country, they are the gaijin). It goes both ways, how about that Japanese fellow who's been here 30 years and still hasn't bothered to learn English too well?

That said... I''m NOT saying that just because DL said it, it's Gospel. I'm not that guy.

:toast: (ugh, probably can't sit this one out now)

[Gene Williams]

I don't really know what Tony's understanding of science is. He calls himself a scientist, but his field in school was "Cosmology," a more philosophical orientation, and he is a translator by profession. He has certainly mastered polemic and sophistic, with a veneer of scientific logic for appearance sake.
Dave Lowry be damned, I have had close relationships with at least 2 Japanese instructors and know them not to be condescending to me when they use the term "gi."

[De_Franza]

Ok.
I'm just saying I certainly DON'T know what the average Japanese is thinking, so I'm willing to defer to those who do, namely those who've lived and or worked with the Japanese for a long time.

I guess the varied opinions here demonstrate the danger of over-generalizing things.

[Eldritch Knight]

Hi, Robert.
I think "osu" is a corruption of "ohayo gozaimasu"; it comes out as "osu" from the mouths of caffeine-starved salarymen at the start of the working day, when they're feeling grumpy after the hellish Tokyo commute and lack the energy to muster a full sentence.

I've heard the same thing. However, I've also heard that ossu (‰Ÿƒb”E) had a meaning something along the lines of "continuing to endure", at least based on the characters that comprise it. Personally, though, I've only used it in a casual context with fellow kendoka... kinda like a macho greeting-type thing in lieu of konnichiwa.

[Jeff C.]

Tony, how can you apply your generalization of Japanese behavior and attitudes to the specific relationship Gene has with certain individuals, when you have never even observed their interaction? Is this a manifestation of your omnipotent God-like powers of mindreading?

Jeff Cook

[Kimpatsu]

:toast: Yup.....I am just waiting for the scientific evidence that proves once and for all that a gi doesn't exist!!! :laugh: :laugh:

:whack: :whack:
As if you understand what scientific evidence actually is, Mandeigh... :rolleyes:

[Kimpatsu]

My first instructor was a Japanese man named Kota Higioshi. I had no idea what the name for "uniform" was in Japanese. He always called it a "gi," and he was right off the boat and barely spoke English. Of course, he may have smiled to himself as we might at someone from another country taking shortcuts with our language. We often deliberately use shortcuts in language FOR THE BENEFIT OF OTHERS and not out of scorn or condescension which, being the only motives you understand, are the only motives you are capable of imputing.


PS You have once again misspelled "believed." This has occurred in several of your posts now, which makes me wonder if you have forgotten the little mnemonic we all learned as children. You should pay more attention to these fine points than to your insane hooting and braying regarding such minutiae as "gi."
In other words, he was fresh off the boat, and he was condescending.
Actually, I don't believe you, Gene. I think you're embellishing the story, or misremembering it. In the first scenario, you're merely a liar, but in the second, you just don't have what you think you do. Which is it, I wonder...
Of course, the possibility that you don't speak Japanese doesn't enter into this... :rolleyes:

[Mandeigh Wells]

well as you have so far done a pretty poor job clarifying anything Tony, you will just have to excuse my lack of interest in your favourite subject.

[Kimpatsu]

I don't really know what Tony's understanding of science is. He calls himself a scientist, but his field in school was "Cosmology," a more philosophical orientation, and he is a translator by profession. He has certainly mastered polemic and sophistic, with a veneer of scientific logic for appearance sake.
Dave Lowry be damned, I have had close relationships with at least 2 Japanese instructors and know them not to be condescending to me when they use the term "gi."
No, Gene, it's an advanced degree in physics.
And you're wrong about the two Japanese instructors. You just think they're not being condescending. Or do you not understand the term mu?!

[Kimpatsu]

I've heard the same thing. However, I've also heard that ossu (‰Ÿƒb”E) had a meaning something along the lines of "continuing to endure", at least based on the characters that comprise it. Personally, though, I've only used it in a casual context with fellow kendoka... kinda like a macho greeting-type thing in lieu of konnichiwa.
There are no characters for "oss"; it's written in katakana.

[Mandeigh Wells]

I don't believe you, Gene. I think you're embellishing the story, or misremembering it. this is bordering on the unbelievable now.....assuming you have never met Gene nor the people he is referring to you still feel able to make comments such as this. This is exactly why you have no credibility, you have your head stuck so far up your own arse you can't even see the rest of the world exsists beyond your own 4 walls.

OMG I can't believe I am sticking up for Gene now! See what you made me do???? bad Tony!!

[Kimpatsu]

Tony, how can you apply your generalization of Japanese behavior and attitudes to the specific relationship Gene has with certain individuals, when you have never even observed their interaction? Is this a manifestation of your omnipotent God-like powers of mindreading?

Jeff Cook
How can you apply your generalisation to the bahaviour and attitudes of specific Iraquis, unless that's not what's happening here at all...?
The fact is, Gene is the one making generalisations, as seen through the prism of his monolingual misunderstanding. I, however, am building upon my monumental experience.
Care to prove otherwise, Jeff?
Gene's anecdotes have no bearing on reality. Knowledge of the genre does. I don't believe Jeff for the simple reason that there is no credible mechanism by which he can be right. Any more than claims of a young Earth or the existence of the Tooth Fairy can be right. Would you equally question someone who claimed to personally know the Easter Bunny? Or would your first reaction be that, no matter how well they are personally convinced, they must be wrong somehow?
Well, that's where I stand regarding Gene's misinterpretations. Unless, of course, either you or he suddenly prduce evidence of Japanese language ability... :rolleyes:

[Jeff C.]

Tony,

Accusing Gene of being a liar is unacceptable and a violation of forum rules. I am surprised that you can be so easily goaded into such crass behavior.

Jeff Cook

[Kimpatsu]

:toast: Yup.....I am just waiting for the scientific evidence that proves once and for all that a gi doesn't exist!!! :laugh: :laugh:

:whack: :whack:
Thereby demonstrating once and for all that you don't know what science is, nor what it does, Mandeigh... :rolleyes:
If you think less than half a uniform doesn't exist, please present that less than half a uniform...

[Mandeigh Wells]

Thereby demonstrating once and for all that you don't know what science is, nor what it does, Mandeigh... actually the comment doesn't refere to my interest or rather lack of it in Japanese items or clothing, but rather your attitude to life......its called a sense of humour, you should get one, they are actually quite nice, or do we not have any scientific evidence of humours exsistance??????

Oh Tony...you really do brighten up my day...I come here read your drivel and it fairly puts a smile on my face.......Thanks!

[Jeff C.]

Sorry, we must have cross-posted.

Your response earlier is....disturbing. It is disturbing because you used to be insightful, logical, educational, and interesting. Your posts actually used to make sense. You are discounting actual experience of Gene's human interaction with another human because it doesn't fit into your neat little theory of Japanese xenophobia. I am beginning to wonder if you and Bruce are actually the same person.

Jeff Cook

[Kimpatsu]

well as you have so far done a pretty poor job clarifying anything Tony, you will just have to excuse my lack of interest in your favourite subject.
Really? I thought I'd been very clear. What exactly have you failed to understand, Mandeigh? I'm more than willing to explain further.

[Kimpatsu]

actually the comment doesn't refere to my interest or rather lack of it in Japanese items or clothing, but rather your attitude to life......its called a sense of humour, you should get one, they are actually quite nice, or do we not have any scientific evidence of humours exsistance??????

Oh Tony...you really do brighten up my day...I come here read your drivel and it fairly puts a smile on my face.......Thanks!
I have a great sense of humour, Mandeigh. How can I have otherwise, reading your posts...? :up:

[Kimpatsu]

Sorry, we must have cross-posted.

Your response earlier is....disturbing. It is disturbing because you used to be insightful, logical, educational, and interesting. Your posts actually used to make sense. You are discounting actual experience of Gene's human interaction with another human because it doesn't fit into your neat little theory of Japanese xenophobia. I am beginning to wonder if you and Bruce are actually the same person.

Jeff Cook
No, you misunderstand, Jeff. It's precisely because of my knowledge of Japan that I know Gene is wrong. FYI, Gene is NOT "recounting his actual experience of his interaction with another human"; he is misremembering reality to suit his particular linguistic ineptitude. If these people really exist, let him produce them, so that I may speak to them (in Japanese, of course).
Until then...

[Jeff C.]

He gave you their names. Does he need to buy them plane tickets to Tokyo so you can have a sit-down dinner with them?

Sorry, but the cranky old foulmouthed idjiot redneck from Georgia gets my vote on this one. We may all look alike down here in the South, wide foreheads, close-set eyes and perpetual drool on our lips, but I honestly think your "gene" pool is not as diversified as you think. ;)

Jeff Cook

[Gene Williams]

Tony, It doesn't really matter to me whether you believe me or not. I remember the people and their use of words very well. I have no need to "embellish" anything to gain credibility in an argument with some supercilious, obsessive-compulsive Brit who thinks just because he speaks Japanese he has superior insight into human psychology.

[Kimpatsu]

this is bordering on the unbelievable now.....assuming you have never met Gene nor the people he is referring to you still feel able to make comments such as this. This is exactly why you have no credibility, you have your head stuck so far up your own arse you can't even see the rest of the world exsists beyond your own 4 walls.

OMG I can't believe I am sticking up for Gene now! See what you made me do???? bad Tony!!
I tell you what, Mandy: once you even learn basic Japanese, then your opinion will carry some validity.
Until then, who's the oine with their head stuck up their arse...?

[Rasputin]

Tony,

Languages drift over time, merging colloquialisms and slang with the "officially recognized" language, as seen by Webster's adoption of such words as "spam" and "dweeb".

Are you stating that the only possible explanation for a native Japanese speaker to call the article of clothing in question a "gi" is that they were attempting to belittle the listener? Or are you willing to admit that the possibility exists that some segment of the native Japanese population whom you have yet to encounter personally has started using "gi" as an accepted reference to said garment?

Linguistics can hardly be held up to the same mirror as the hard sciences, since it is more a reflection of popular opinion than actual, verifiable facts. Why have you chosen this one topic upon which to make your last stand? And why do you let people push your buttons so easily about it?

Lastly, if you want Budoseek to remain a forum where you are welcome to pass on your pearls, you will take a less combative approach with the other members and staff, or you will swiftly find yourself banned. Your invective can be entertaining, but it is beginning to wear out its welcome.

[Kimpatsu]

He gave you their names. Does he need to buy them plane tickets to Tokyo so you can have a sit-down dinner with them?

Sorry, but the cranky old foulmouthed idjiot redneck from Georgia gets my vote on this one. We may all look alike down here in the South, wide foreheads, close-set eyes and perpetual drool on our lips, but I honestly think your "gene" pool is not as diversified as you think. ;)

Jeff Cook
Yes, Jeff, that's pretty much what he does have to do, until he can demonstrate linguistically that he has a point. Where he's from is not an issue (so stop with the strawman, OK?!); language ability is the issue here. And until anyone here speaks better Japanese than I do, quite frankly, your views are completely worthless. Or do you think my views on the Marine Corps are equal to yours? Do you argue with your laywer? With your doctor? With any other specialist...?
Your claim to be "with Gene" is based on mistaken notions of kinship, not on the evidence. Shame on you; you are capable of so much better.

[Kimpatsu]

Tony, It doesn't really matter to me whether you believe me or not. I remember the people and their use of words very well. I have no need to "embellish" anything to gain credibility in an argument with some supercilious, obsessive-compulsive Brit who thinks just because he speaks Japanese he has superior insight into human psychology.
No, Gene, I KNOW that you're wrong. Either that, or let's continue this discussion in Japanese, OK?
ギという単語は日本語で存在しません。違いますか。

[Kimpatsu]

Tony,

Languages drift over time, merging colloquialisms and slang with the "officially recognized" language, as seen by Webster's adoption of such words as "spam" and "dweeb".

Are you stating that the only possible explanation for a native Japanese speaker to call the article of clothing in question a "gi" is that they were attempting to belittle the listener? Or are you willing to admit that the possibility exists that some segment of the native Japanese population whom you have yet to encounter personally has started using "gi" as an accepted reference to said garment?

Linguistics can hardly be held up to the same mirror as the hard sciences, since it is more a reflection of popular opinion than actual, verifiable facts. Why have you chosen this one topic upon which to make your last stand? And why do you let people push your buttons so easily about it?

Lastly, if you want Budoseek to remain a forum where you are welcome to pass on your pearls, you will take a less combative approach with the other members and staff, or you will swiftly find yourself banned. Your invective can be entertaining, but it is beginning to wear out its welcome.
English changes and drifts over time; in Japan, there's a full-time academy to prevent this.
Didn't you know...?

[Jeff C.]

Yes, Jeff, that's pretty much what he does have to do, until he can demonstrate linguistically that he has a point. Where he's from is not an issue (so stop with the strawman, OK?!); language ability is the issue here. And until anyone here speaks better Japanese than I do, quite frankly, your views are completely worthless. Or do you think my views on the Marine Corps are equal to yours? Do you argue with your laywer? With your doctor? With any other specialist...?
Your claim to be "with Gene" is based on mistaken notions of kinship, not on the evidence. Shame on you; you are capable of so much better.

The only strawmen in our neck of the woods are scarecrows. For your edification, we call that "humor" around these parts.

My views being worthless to you is largely irrelevant, as my views hold worth to myself and others whom I hold in high regard. However, my ability to ban you on a whim holds as much worth to you as your ability to post here does.

Your views on the USMC ARE equal to mine, as I am not a Marine. That small "FACT" must have escaped you somehow.

And regarding my doctor, as a matter of "FACT" (pesky little things, aren't they?) I did argue with my doctor about my spinal injury/condition last week. Turns out I was right, and the surgeon was WRONG - confirmed by another surgeon, a general-practioner physican, a radiologist, a physician's assistant, and a physical therapist. That's why we have malpractice insurance in this country. Of course you could just call me a liar.

Wow, it does seem I have some capabilities after all.

Jeff Cook

[Rasputin]

Actually, I did not know that. I remain sceptical that they possess the manpower to police the entire population to ensure that the words that they speak remain 100% true to the "official" tongue. In fact, I cannot even comprehend of a situation where this would be plausible, let alone feasible.

Doesn't mean that it isn't the case, only that I have never encountered it myself.

At any rate, believing that such an edifice of anti-progress exists changes the rules somewhat. If indeed a syntax-gestapo is at work making sure that words such as "gi" do not enter the recognized Japanese dictionaries, then indeed all Japanese speakers must pay homage to them or face dire retribution.

If this is anything close to being true, then isn't it our duty as lovers of freedom and individuality to fight against them with our dying breath? Viva la revolucion!

[Webmaster]

English changes and drifts over time; in Japan, there's a full-time academy to prevent this.
Didn't you know...?
Really? Is this the same full-time academy that has allowed osu to become a part of the languages daily usage?

Oh and btw, do you also get all bent out of shape whenever the Japanese mangle the English language (as they are well known for doing) or do you simply save this for us lowly Westerners?

[Jeff C.]

Oh yeah, Tony, you see the picture of the Southern guy in the post above, also with close-set eyes and wide forehead (the drool on his lip doesn't show so good on his avatar)? He's the Marine.

Just wanted to make sure you got your "FACTS" straight.

You're welcome. ;)

Jeff Cook

[De_Franza]

Jeff, your raelly rough on teh southernerers. geez. you may offfend someone, man.

Hey Toney, how do I say "We are the knights who say 'gi'!" in Japanese?

[Mandeigh Wells]

I tell you what, Mandy: once you even learn basic Japanese, then your opinion will carry some validity.
Until then, who's the oine with their head stuck up their arse...? er emmm...the name is Mandeigh. As per usual, in your attempt to appear Superior you once again miss the point. Whether I speak Japanese or not and lets face it, why would I, does not mean you are not an obnoxious, self obsessed numpty in your assumptions regarding Gene's 'actual' conversation with the fellows he cites of which you were not party too, so cannot possibly know in what manner it was conveyed. So the head up arse is still your problem.

[Jeff C.]

Tony, bring us a shrubbery and we may stop. Gi! Gi! Gi!

Bill, it's kind of hard for me to offend another southerner about lineage, as we are all related. Where did you say your cousin was from? ;)

Jeff Cook

[Cliff Hargrave]

http://www.engrish.com/

[Gene Williams]

Tony and All,
From Rui Umezawa's book, "The Empty Hand: A Karate Workbook," published by Weatherhill: page 18 "What is Gi?" "...most people who do not speak Japanese refer to it simply as "gi." "...today gi come in a wide variety of sizes...." "Many schools display their crest on the gi..." "Keep your gi clean..." From page 19: "Gi is a phonetic character. It developed originally from the character for chopsticks. From there the more abstract meanings of "to take" and "to put on" emerged and were assigned to an intermediary character." Finally the character gi was invented and assigned the more restricted meanings "to put on clothing" or "clothing."

Umezawa is an instructor with the Canadian branch of Itosu Kai/Shito ryu.

[De_Franza]

Jeff, I was kidding, ya dumb redneck. :D
(now too, if there's any doubt)

[Gene Williams]

Tony and All,
From Rui Umezawa's book, "The Empty Hand: A Karate Workbook," published by Weatherhill: page 18 "What is Gi?" "...most people who do not speak Japanese refer to it simply as "gi." "...today gi come in a wide variety of sizes...." "Many schools display their crest on the gi..." "Keep your gi clean..." From page 19: "Gi is a phonetic character. It developed originally from the character for chopsticks. From there the more abstract meanings of "to take" and "to put on" emerged and were assigned to an intermediary character." Finally the character gi was invented and assigned the more restricted meanings "to put on clothing" or "clothing."

Umezawa is an instructor with the Canadian branch of Itosu Kai/Shito ryu.


Bill and I cross posted...I want everyone to see this.

[Mandeigh Wells]

I hear what you are saying Gene...but obviously 'Rui Umezawa' is not a native Japanese speaker.

removing tongue from cheek now!

[Gene Williams]

Mandeigh, Do you think Umezawa might be Scottish? :D

[STORMCROW34]

Will someone please PERMANENTLY ban the pontificating putz otherwise known as Kimpatsu? How many times does he have to insult, degrade and alienate members on this and every other "Budo" site to get the final axe.

"Tiny" attacked and insulted me on "E-budo" about the very same mistake. Because I typed "Gi" as opposed to "Dogi", he promtly informed me that I was a "thicko", and that he knows more than everyone about everything because he is a certified "Linguist". Initially his little inferiority complex was slightly amusing, but at this point it's just getting old and tired.

[Mandeigh Wells]

Mandeigh, Do you think Umezawa might be Scottish? :D I was thinking perhaps more Welsh..... ;) Now you come to mention it..it does have a slight Glasgae ring to it.

[Mandeigh Wells]

Will someone please PERMANENTLY ban the pontificating putz otherwise known as Kimpatsu? How many times does he have to insult, degrade and alienate members on this and every other "Budo" site to get the final axe.

"Tiny" attacked and insulted me on "E-budo" about the very same mistake. Because I typed "Gi" as opposed to "Dogi", he promtly informed me that I was a "thicko", and that he knows more than everyone about everything because he is a certified "Linguist".

gosh...why don't you come off the fence and tell us how you really feel :laugh:

[STORMCROW34]

gosh...why don't you come off the fence and tell us how you really feel :laugh:


Although I am clearly no linguist and don't claim to know everything as most liguists do, I'll venture to say that I have only stated what a significant number of members on this site are already thinking.

[Mandeigh Wells]

ooh noooo we love our Tone...he keeps us amused for hours :up:

[STORMCROW34]

Sounds like you have thing for "Tiny". Might be just what he needs.... :laugh:
Although I don't know why you would be interested in someone named "Tiny". :laugh: :laugh:

[jwinch2]

Will someone please PERMANENTLY ban the pontificating putz otherwise known as Kimpatsu? How many times does he have to insult, degrade and alienate members on this and every other "Budo" site to get the final axe.

"Tiny" attacked and insulted me on "E-budo" about the very same mistake. Because I typed "Gi" as opposed to "Dogi", he promtly informed me that I was a "thicko", and that he knows more than everyone about everything because he is a certified "Linguist". Initially his little inferiority complex was slightly amusing, but at this point it's just getting old and tired.

I am not going to try to do the job of the moderators and administrators on this forum. That is their job to do and they do it well the vast majority of the time.

I do however, agree with you that Tony goes out of his way to post inflammatory statements and generally picks a fight wherever and whenever he can. I have been looking back over some older threads after I was reading this thread in disbelief at how nasty it was getting. From what I saw, there were very few situations where Tony added anything positive to the coversation. In almost every case, his posts were derogatory or inflammatory in nature. On this particular thread, he has called people liars and unintelligent with no direct knowledge of the individual he was insulting.

My question for Tony would be this. Is there not a way that you can present your case on this forum, argue it intelligently and passionately AND do it without being mean or insulting all at the same time?

Many times I respect your point of view and often I even agree with your argument. However, the vast majority of the time I am put off by your manner and attitude toward those who disagree with you.

In my opinion, when the manner in which the argument is presented takes away from the merits of the statement itself, things have gone too far.

[STORMCROW34]

I am not going to try to do the job of the moderators and administrators on this forum. That is their job to do and they do it well the vast majority of the time.

I do however, agree with you that Tony goes out of his way to post inflammatory statements and generally picks a fight wherever and whenever he can. I have been looking back over some older threads after I was reading this thread in disbelief at how nasty it was getting. From what I saw, there were very few situations where Tony added anything positive to the coversation. In almost every case, his posts were derogatory or inflammatory in nature. On this particular thread, he has called people liars and unintelligent with no direct knowledge of the individual he was insulting.

My question for Tony would be this. Is there not a way that you can present your case on this forum, argue it intelligently and passionately AND do it without being mean or insulting all at the same time?

Many times I respect your point of view and often I even agree with your argument. However, the vast majority of the time I am put off by your manner and attitude toward those who disagree with you.

In my opinion, when the manner in which the argument is presented takes away from the merits of the statement itself, things have gone too far.


I asked Tony the same question after he went out of his way to insult me again and again. And I believe his reply was something along the lines of "expecting common courtesy and respect was my ego getting in the way of the truth"......

You know, I am positive that Tony is a very intelligent person who has a vast amount of knowledge and experience to share as benefit to us all. And I sincerely believe Tony, that if you would present and share your knowledge in a positive way, that same knowledge would be welcomed as a gift and passed on to others. But instead it's just wasted energy.

[Mandeigh Wells]

From what I saw, there were very few situations where Tony added anything positive to the coversation. In almost every case, his posts were derogatory or inflammatory in nature. On this particular thread, he has called people liars and unintelligent with no direct knowledge of the individual he was insulting. agreed.


In my opinion, when the manner in which the argument is presented takes away from the merits of the statement itself Actually Jason, you have hit the nail on the head.

[Gene Williams]

Condescension, scorn, and cynicism are such an integral part of Tony's nature that he can't conceive of anyone else operating on any other basis but condescension, scorn, and cynicism. Hence his insistence that Japanese are just as misantrhropic and jaded as he is. If he is so bright and has so much knowledge, why is he so bitter and insecure? Maybe it was his Mummy didn't beat him enough...or maybe she beat him too much. Who knows? Who cares? :laugh:

[De_Franza]

gosh...why don't you come off the fence and tell us how you really feel :laugh:

Beat me to it! :laugh:

[STORMCROW34]

Beat me to it! :laugh:

If I told you how I really feel I would be banned from this board, arrested, disowned and divorced all in the same day! :laugh:

[Gene Williams]

:laugh: :wink2: :wink2: :laugh: :laugh:

[Dennis Monk]

Here are the facts as I see them:
We don't speak Japanese, and that makes us idiots.
There are those of us that can remember certain things in our lives that never really happened, and that makes us idiots.
Some of us are not schooled in physics, and that makes us idiots.
We can spell our own names correctly, but cannot be afforded the courtesy of having our names spelled correctly when someone is trying to make us out to be idiots, because we are idiots.
Most of us are not Japanese linguists and therefore cannot be allowed to argue a point with someone who is, because we are idiots.
Friends of ours that speak to us in a certain way, or use familiar phrases, are idiots too.

Mr. Kehoe, with all of the idiots that frequent this site; why do you come here? Certainly it must be beneath you to consort with such persons of obviously negligible intellect. Could it be because you have been run off from everywhere else and this is the only sandbox left for you to play in?
Regardless, it really doesn't matter. You pi$$ in every pool that you swim in and expect the others to say thank you for heating up the waters.
Is there no one else for you to make miserable in this world?
I am sure there is.
Please, GO FIND THEM.

[Webmaster]

Will someone please PERMANENTLY ban the pontificating putz otherwise known as Kimpatsu? How many times does he have to insult, degrade and alienate members on this and every other "Budo" site to get the final axe.

"Tiny" attacked and insulted me on "E-budo" about the very same mistake. Because I typed "Gi" as opposed to "Dogi", he promtly informed me that I was a "thicko", and that he knows more than everyone about everything because he is a certified "Linguist". Initially his little inferiority complex was slightly amusing, but at this point it's just getting old and tired.
Michael:

Tony was previously banned... twice. However, I had a moderator go to bat for him and ask that we give him another chance. Because I respect that moderator, I agreed to his request with the condition that if he (Tony) got out of hand, he would be banned permanently this time. It is a shame that after someone goes to bat for him that he would return to his old ways and thus let down the person that vouched for his good behaviour. However, I guess when you have become lonely and bitter, and hold your fellow human beings in contempt, the matter and importance of friendship would be lost on him.

At this point, Tony's time here is limited and unless we see a radical departure from his usual nonsense, I predict that he will no longer be welcomed here.

[Jeff C.]

Hey, I just noticed you can really see that forehead and eye thing I was talking about, in Dennis' avatar. His brow looks thicker than mine too; perhaps a more pure-bred Southerner than I?

Dennis, you, me, Gene, Robert, Jason, Cliff, Barry, and the other Southerners don't have enough branches on our trunk to argue with TK. We should just stick to talking about NASCAR, WWE, killing deer, wrasslin, and stuff like that.

Been fishin' lately?

Jeff Cook

[jwinch2]

Hey now Jeff, I only moved to the south last year! I am originally from the north! LOL...

Though I do like wraslin, killin deer, and fishin'...

Later!

Jason

[Dennis Monk]

Personally, I like rasslin' with the deer I kill.....

[jwinch2]

That's a little unsporting to rassle with animals you already shot isn't it...

[Dennis Monk]

Makes for easier traingles, amrbars and rear naked chokes.

[jwinch2]

At least now I know how you got the nickname "The Ace"... :laugh:

[Gene Williams]

I like them bare two-legged dears :D Its more fun bein' a idiot because we git to shoot guns and hunt and chase nekkid women. Sometimes we drive trucks through the woods too fast, and I have been drunk oncet or twicet. :D :D

[Jeff C.]

Speakin' of which, I wonder if Dennis wuz nekked while he was deer-wrasslin'? I guess that's easier 'n tryin' to date his cousin....

Jeff Cook

[Dennis Monk]

That's 2nd cousin sir.
I'm not some unejumacated kretin you know.

[Gene Williams]

This is true...when I was a boy we used to have family reunions over in east Georgia in a little country church. After dinner on the ground, us kids would all go nekkid swimming at Aunt Pearl's pond in the woods way down behind the pasture until we were about 13 or 14 years old. My first and second cousins were the first girls I saw naked :) ...I liked it...

[Rasputin]

Speakin' of which, I wonder if Dennis wuz nekked while he was deer-wrasslin'? I guess that's easier 'n tryin' to date his cousin....

Jeff Cook

I have it on good authority that Dennis wasn't naked at the time--he was wearing his gi.

[Mandeigh Wells]

I have it on good authority that Dennis wasn't naked at the time--he was wearing his gi. he may not have been naked, but I heard he was playing the banjo. :eek:

[De_Franza]

LOL!
way off topic... however. should we close this now?

[Mandeigh Wells]

LOL!
way off topic... however. should we close this now?

probably a good idea Bill!

[STORMCROW34]

At this point, Tony's time here is limited and unless we see a radical departure from his usual nonsense, I predict that he will no longer be welcomed here.[/QUOTE]

Thank you Mr. Carver. I realize we all get out of line on occasion and bend rules, but I don't believe there are any other members here who persistently insult and degrade. I understand your inclination towards benevolence and to give people "the benefit of the doubt". Especially when it comes to a member of a Budo site who is fluent in Japanese AND Engrish. Sorry about the toes.

[Kimpatsu]

he may not have been naked, but I heard he was playing the banjo. :eek:
Now you're tugging my strings, Mandeigh... :p :D

[Gene Williams]

Tony and All,
From Rui Umezawa's book, "The Empty Hand: A Karate Workbook," published by Weatherhill: page 18 "What is Gi?" "...most people who do not speak Japanese refer to it simply as "gi." "...today gi come in a wide variety of sizes...." "Many schools display their crest on the gi..." "Keep your gi clean..." From page 19: "Gi is a phonetic character. It developed originally from the character for chopsticks. From there the more abstract meanings of "to take" and "to put on" emerged and were assigned to an intermediary character." Finally the character gi was invented and assigned the more restricted meanings "to put on clothing" or "clothing."

Umezawa is an instructor with the Canadian branch of Itosu Kai/Shito ryu.


Ahem...here it is again :)

[Jeff C.]

Hey now Jeff, I only moved to the south last year! I am originally from the north! LOL...

Though I do like wraslin, killin deer, and fishin'...

Later!

Jason

Good deal, Jason! We can always use a fresh injection of DNA down here!

Jeff Cook

[Tribalweapon]

Wow, all of this off of one simple question!

Thanks again to everyone who helped. Or at least had good intentions :)

[Jeff C.]

Chris, of course you know this is ALL your fault, all five sordid pages! Shame on you! ;)

Move along, folks - nothing more to see here.

Jeff Cook