Becoming a Swordsmith

[Abbax8]

Hello everyone. I am seeking your advice and opinions on swordsmithing schools and classes/seminars. Where are they located, which ones are good, which ones are to be avoided.Along with swordsmith, any info on knife smithing is also appreciated. I have a son who has more than a passing interest in this field. Thank You ahead of time for your help!

Peace

Dennis

[gr455h0pp3r]

Just wonderring if your son was still interested in swordsmithing ?

[breen]

Hi Dennis,

I know it may be a bit out of your way, but I recently heard about Kim Taylor through my Iaido Sensei. Mr. Taylor hosts various seminars and workshops on Japansese swordsmithing just outside of Toronto Canada. MapQuest says it's only 312 miles from Duncansville to Guelph, which is about 40 minutes from the workshop. Plus, the weather in July is in the mid 80s :-)

Here's a link to the seminars from this past summer:
http://www.uoguelph.ca/~iaido/gsjsa_smithing.htm

Cheers,
David

[dao]

He might find this article interesting:

The Making of a Training Blade by Charles Kangus (http://sayoc.com/articles.php?osCsid=e95784b33e2aeaa97b9fc7130a624a 2)

[Abbax8]

He's still interested. Also interested in a career as a chef. He's in 12th. grade this year and plans to take a year off of school. I have talked to him about seminars. Right now he's buried with school and an Eagle Scout Project. Any ideas are very much appreciated.

Peace

Dennis

[BGalehouse]

The above mentioned seminars look excelent. I'd like to point out that the way to become a tradesman is to practice.

The science of making anything out of modern metals is fairly well documented in machinists handbook and the like. But at the end of the day, you try something and see if you like the result. My reaction is that he should start with a knife kit of some sort - to see how the final finishing goes together. Then suggest that he go deeper and hand him one of those 1000 page machine tool supply catalogs.

Roughly speaking, he needs a bench grinder, some oil hardining stock, maybe a small bandsaw, and a lot of patience to cut an initial blank. Does his school have a metal shop? Knives are the sort of thing that they often won't let you work on during class, but maybe after school? Rougly speaking, he should cut something to approximatly the right shape, heat treat it (after heat treating, you can't cut it anymore), finish grind and sharpen it.

Heat treating is probably the least obvious part. A cheap and potentially exciting method involves an oxy-acetelene torch with a big 'tip' and a metal pail filled with old engine oil. If I were doing it this way, I'd keep a metal lid handy and do it out in the middle of a driveway so as to minimize the danger of burning down anything. Now that I think about it, I do not feel comfortable recommending this method to people that I don't know. So that was for informational purposes only, and anybody who tries it risks horrible fiery death.

Some professionals buy little metal hardening furnaces, others send their things out. The more modern and "high performance" an alloy is, the more likely it is to need carefull/special heat treating. But basic oil hardening steel is forgiving by design, even if "traditional" oil hardening can be unforgiving safety wise.

It is also possible to set up for more traditional manufacturing techniques. You can make a decent portable backyard forge from a BBQ grill, some clay, and a furnace blower. I think I've seen plans along these lines on the internet somewhere. Does he know how to oxy-acetylene weld? It can teach a sense for hot metal that is usefull for a smith.

[Abbax8]

What he knows he has learned from watching TV. He has asked permission to build a forge, and I might consent to a small one. He is very good with his hands, my opinion, and mechanically inclined.

Peace


Dennis

[Stoker]

A buddy from high school makes a decent living making various 'bits' for movies, SCA-type events, re-enactors, and people who just want something differnet to hang over the mantle. He said a good blacksmith who reguarly shoed horses is probably the best and cheepest way to learn the basic skills. Most 'horsey' types can point you to a blacksmith and they should know someone who teaches.

[kumite]

Dennis, here's the website for the American Bladesmith Society. It's my understanding that they are one of the best organizations in the world.
http://www.americanbladesmith.com/

For any interested, here's the link for the criteria their blades have to pass to be a journeyman bladesmith. http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ABS_JSTest.htm
It got to be a good blade to pass the test and then you're only a journeyman.

They also hold a school in Texarkana, Texas and Washington, Arkansas. I've seen one of their guys work at the festival they hold every year at the Old Washington Historic Park.

[Doctor_Mushin]

He might find this article interesting:

The Making of a Training Blade by Charles Kangus (http://sayoc.com/articles.php?osCsid=e95784b33e2aeaa97b9fc7130a624a 2)

I SO dont want to come across as a troll here, but that site was just wrong. Misinformation can be ten times as damaging as no information. A smith does not machine weapons, he forges them. you know? fire, water, metal, clay. A question regarding being a fitter and turner would be perfect for that page, but a smith (especially of Nihonto) could not be any further from the methods used in the link you've provided.
I realise the suggestion was given in an attempt to be helpful, but good lord. that just made me cringe...literally.
I'm really honestly not trying to be nasty, or argue, or anything trollish....but i would urge you to rethink posting in future when the question is regarding Nihonto, or any forging, swordsmithing etc.

As serious as M.A are taken, i believe being a sword smith is taken even more seriously. The masses of people who sell machine made fake weapons are held in the greatest contempt by many serious collectors and smiths, so suggesting any method that is not genuine will ruffle feathers.

Sorry if this response sounded nasty or trollish, sincerely, no offense was meant...but pleae, think before you post.

Doc Mushin

[David Craik]

The article in question concerned making a training blade out of aluminum, not forging a nihonto (which the young man could not do anyway, as he is outside of Japan and not a tosho).

I can see how the article, while not exactly smithing, might still be of interest to him.

I was going to respond to the question a couple weeks ago, but it's a rather old thread. Just the same, I would suggest he surf on over to the Bugei.com forums and Sword Forum International. Some pretty knowledgeable smiths (both Western and Japanese style) there that can point him in the right direction and offer tips and techniques of forging, mounting, polishing and general metallurgy.

[Dennis Monk]

I SO dont want to come across as a troll here,
Really?

I'm really honestly not trying to be nasty, or argue, or anything trollish....
No kidding?

Sorry if this response sounded nasty or trollish,
Alrighty then.

think before you post.
Another tidbit of advice: Consider your wording before making a post. A poorly worded post might cause another to think that one might be quite arrogant and full of themselves.

[Doctor_Mushin]

I see your point S.E,

The wording he used though was 'smith' a smith does not machine weapons.
One thing you said did really surprise me, saying 'he could not' become a smith. I would think with the experience you've had yourself and wisdom of age you would be one of the first to say 'nothing is impossible'.
I know a man here in my own city (Melbourne) who is a smith, and forges all forms of swords. Beside that, the boy is at the start of his life, and i'm sure with dedicated study and serious devotion he could make trips to Japan, even migrate there longterm.
The japanese are as i'm sure you know very patriotic, and a westerner who shows a sincere love of Japan and its culture will be most welcomed. I heard of a man who was being deported and dropped to his knees singing the Japanese National anthem (perfect pronounciation) and tears streaming from his eyes, only to be granted citizenship (permanant residency perhaps) for the showing of patriotism to the nation.
It was said that his obvious love of the country was greater then many natives, and though he was an illegal imigrant having been in hiding virtually, after displaying such passionate sincere love of the country, he was given the best of treatment, and welcomed as a new Japanese citizen.

A little of subject i know, but the point is that with a deep passionate love for smithing, he could achieve this goal if his passion and dedication was unwavering.

Also, not suggesting you dont 'know your stuff', but the truelly serious smiths and collectors do not regard bugei and weapons of that kind as true nihonto. I use the same forums that people renound for their knowledge, skill, and spectacular collections use, and even discussing Bugei weapons is considered 'off topic' and against the rules of the forums.


To be a true smith i would suggest a person disregard mchine made weapons, and purchase books like the Kanzan Sato text, or The Connoisseur's Book of Japanese Swords by Kokan Nagayama for starters. Things of that kind.

A training sword need not be aluminium (iaito). Many iaito are forged steel, they simply do not have a live edge. Also, if you want to split hairs, there was no mention of 'training blade' either...that was debra's thread. Perhaps you're getting the two mixed up :)

Anyway, I was just trying to steer him in the direction of becoming a 'smith' as he asked, not a fitter and turner, or machinist, or whatever other forms of fraudulent makers of substandard blades that are out there.

IMHO a person using those methods , and using the term 'smith' is about as legitimate as a Tao Bo instructor calling themselves Shihan, Kyoshi, soke, or sensei even.

thats just my opinion, if people want to learn how to make the sub-standard junk that most second rate weapon retailers sell.....hey 'whatever floats ya boat'. I thought the word used was 'smith'.

Doc Mushin :)

(no disrespect intended soulman, just disagreeing with ya mate ;) )

[David Craik]

I didn't say he couldn't become a smith. I said he could not forge a nihonto. A nihonto by definition is forged in Japan by a tosho, regardless of what a good sword it is. Try submitting a blade made by a Westerner to the Nihonto Token Hozon Kai for shinsa :)


The japanese are as i'm sure you know very patriotic, and a westerner who shows a sincere love of Japan and its culture will be most welcomed.

Though I have gotten along very well with the Japanese in each of the three times I have lived there, I estimate that the probability (as it stands now) of a gaijin getting permission from the Japanese government to produce swords in Japan and them being considered nihonto is roughly the same as his being struck by both lightning and a random meteor in the same week.



I heard of a man who was being deported and dropped to his knees singing the Japanese National anthem (perfect pronounciation) and tears streaming from his eyes, only to be granted citizenship (permanant residency perhaps) for the showing of patriotism to the nation.

If this man is not Japanese, I would like to see a source for this, as last time I checked only ethnic Japanese are allowed to be citizens of Japan.


Also, not suggesting you dont 'know your stuff', but the truelly serious smiths and collectors do not regard bugei and weapons of that kind as true nihonto.

What thread are you reading? I never said they were nihonto - obviously, as the Bugei swords aren't Japanese. I said they had knowledgeable smiths on their forum, which they do. Dan Davis and Howard Clark come to mind. And even though it's neither here nor there, you can (or used to be able to) order nihonto (shinsakuto) in whatever length you like straight from Japan through Bugei's catalog. And though not nihonto, Mr. Clark's blades are forged, folded, tempered and polished precisely the way nihonto are. They are also absolutely beautiful; rivalling even some of the best nihonto in looks and very likely surpassing them in strength. They are prized by those who actually use swords in their art, and are hardly inclined to cut goza with a $50,000 antique.


A training sword need not be aluminium (iaito). Many iaito are forged steel, they simply do not have a live edge. Also, if you want to split hairs, there was no mention of 'training blade' either...that was debra's thread. Perhaps you're getting the two mixed up

Where did you get any mention of iaito? Many knifesmiths have also made training blades, or 'drones'. No, it's not "smithing" - as I said previously - but it may be of some interest.

I am rather mixed up, but not about the threads. More due to your apparent indignation and resultant diatribe over a simple link to an article that Debra thought he might like to read, which was so over the top that it was actually kind of surreal.

[Gene Williams]

I think he just wants everybody to know he's a bull...if you remember that Jerry Clower story :D

[DragonMind]

Dennis, I suspect that specializing to the point of swordsmith might not be practical to make a living at until you have already built a reputation. Even most knifemakers start out as part-timers or hobbyists until they have enough of a following to call for the custom blades with the custom prices. He might want to look into blacksmithing/whitesmithing in general, or even metallurgy. As mentioned earlier, the American Bladesmith Society would be good as would the Knifemakers Guild (http://www.knifemakersguild.com/).

[Bugeisha]

David,
you're dead on about the difficulty of gaining Japanese citizenship. You have to be ethnically Japanese, or you have to marry a native citizen.

[Yang Wei Xin]

I would also try the Artists Blacksmith Association of North America
http://www.abana.org/
they have many excellent knifemakers in their organization and put out wonderful newsletters, i'm not sure about fullsize swords, but im sure one of them has to know something about it.

[Yang Wei Xin]

here is an excellent article from their website on how to get started in forging your own sword.
http://www.abana.org/ronreil/Sword.shtml

[moogong]

I think he just wants everybody to know he's a bull...if you remember that Jerry Clower story :D


Wow...talk about making me want to go home and break out my "One the Road" record! :)

[Doctor_Mushin]

Hows this,


You're right, youre always right, all hail super mod.

[Gene Williams]

Well, you'll be gone soon, so let me get in a word. You are a complete idiot and Soulend has forgotten more about martial arts and combat than you ever knew.

Awww!!! You edited your nasty post. What's the matter? Have a moment of intelligence?

[Dennis Monk]

You are a troll, a tool and an idiot. You are the one that does not like to be argued with. David is very much qualified to make statments concerning sword arts, far much more than you I imagine. You have earned yourself a permanent vacation. We don't condone your type of behavior or appreciate your attitude. Good bye and stay gone.

[Dennis Monk]

Hows this,You're right, youre always right, all hail super mod.

Nice try, but we all know what you already said...

Here we go again,

Soul end, you are a rude person, simple as that. For a 'super moderator' you sure know how to stomp someones thoughts into the ground. Whats the policy here? "feel free to say whatever you think or feel...as long as you dont dare disagree with me!!" If its not, it should be.

My disdain for machined blades is not 'me on my high horse' as you like to put it. I'm simply tired of hearing stories of how many people have been ripped off by buying a machined blade after being conned into believing it is genuine. My disdain stems from sorting through hundreds of false fraudulent blades in an attempt to find even ONE that is what the seller claims it to be.
If you truelly understood the culture of japanese weapons as you imply you do, you'd know very well that machined weapons do not even NEAR qualify as a "smith's" work and this whole disagreement would have not began.

A great expert or i should say 'sensei' (though he would not agree the term is befitting) once said to me the following
"Most martial artists though well intentioned would'nt have the first clue about what a true blade is or should be"
Your words along with those of so many arm chair experts have led me to think this might in fact be true.
You are so fast to label me as the arrogant one, yet i'm the person here who makes every attempt to clarify that i do not mean any offense. I'm the one who continues to say "i am a beginner re: japanese weapons" but i'm also the one on the 'high horse' as you so RUDELY have said.
Who do you think you are Sir? the Fidell Castro of M.A forums? Learn some manners.
From the moment you got all upset over me posting an alias i got a bad feeling that you were going to attempt to be a thorn in my side using this forum, and so it has become. I might inform you that in every day life (at least in a western country) a man has the right to call himself whatever he damned well pleases...but hey, thats a free world, this is your little virtual castle right, and your the king...or SUPER KING i should say.
You yourself said that you had viewed this thread weeks ago and did not respond as its an old thread (something i did not notice when i first posted) yet you felt compelled to come in and try to cut down my every word.
I would have thought by your age you would have passed the stage where you think you're always...i mean ALWAYS right.

For example, the story about the man who was non-japanese and was granted citizenship. I full well admit that might be just one of many (for lack of a better word) 'urban legend re: Japan. Perhaps it was a one of occurance granted because the government wanted to display how noble they are. Quite likely, its complete fiction.
What i can say for sure are these facts, I was told this story with the utmost sincerity. The story had been passed around from mouth to mouth for some years, and the last fact, i totally concede that it might be complete fiction.
None the less a nice little story in my opinion. Conceding is something i dont think you are mature enough to do. God forbid you ever accept that you might have been wrong.

Even if you so disagree with someone, is it absolutely nessisary to attempt to cut them down on every post? Fine, go right ahead. But one thing I KNOW FOR SURE, you wont continue to do so with me.
I could well keep using this otherwise great forum until you so annoy and offend me that i lash out in such manner to get banned....or i can simply click that little X in the top courner....and never have to hear you arrogant words, and view your sad little picture. With your so neat and tidy little scarf.
On that note, i MUST add, you're the only person who i have ever seen that could make such a noble uniform look so 'prim and proper' as to come across as a total pansy.
He're a suggestion, however much time you spend training in the real world, try spending a LOT more there. People like you amaze me, you claim to be such acomplished M.A'sts, yet EVERY time i post, you respond within 30 minutes on the vast majority of occasions. That leads me to believe one of two things....1, you and i so coincidentaly have the exact same training timetable, actually...not just training, but all round. The same exact time table. (a difficult feat considering i train, teach, and work different days from week to week).
OR.....!
You have virtually NO LIFE outside your little '

'super moderator i'm the net dictator, i know all, dont dare think you know as much as I, and boy oh boy! dont i look so pretty in my little clean, girlish scarf ' ...world.

Its so painfully obvious you use that pic to try and establish some machismo, you should just bite the bullet, accept you lack testosterone, and buy some soft sole sandles.

Well, i think my time in this wonderful forum has allready come to an end. I have no doubt all your little virtual admirers will jump to your aid and help assert your manhood for you. The string of posts talking about how much of a rude so and so i am will make you feel a little better sunshine, so dont dispair. YOU TRUELLY ARE KING OF YOUR LITTLE VIRTUAL M.A WORLD!
ALL HAIL THE SUPER MOD...you ****in wanker.

this is the Doc 'dont try ta grab my fowel ****' , signing off!

Doc Mushin :D:D

P.S I would'nt dare expose the Nihonto forum i use to an arrogant ****** like you? I know the truth, I know the worlds leading Nihonto experts, who's names are known the world over by all true nihonto enthusiats....you know...only bugei?? lol what a joke. Get a life, go for a walk, get some air....hows this..**** OFF :D

[Gene Williams]

Well, Dennis, I'm glad you did the honors. You haven't nailed one in a while.

[David Craik]

Wow, such a harsh response - and on a simple thread about bladesmithing no less. Seems that someone forgot to take their medication, and it's pretty apparent why they didn't get along so well with folk at whatever forums they were at before.

Even though you can still read this, I'm not going to bother with your ridiculous insults, multiple logical fallacies, and assumptions. I will point out that what I'm wearing in the photo is not a scarf, but a gaiter, and was quite filthy at the time that was taken a little over 3 years ago. Pretty handy thing to have in the desert. It is, unfortunately, one of the very few digital pictures I have of myself, I'm sorry you don't like it. Feel free however, if you're ever on the east coast of the U.S., to contact me at Soulend@gmail.com and we could arrange to discuss your points in more detail, in person. It would be an honor to meet you. I'll even wear my girlish scarf, soft sole sandals, and bring my testosterone deficiency just for laughs.


Well, seems this thread is kind of shot, and is thus closed. I hope that there was something here to point Dennis' son in the right direction, and wish him the very best of luck.

*edit* V

For the bystanders, I have found out that I was actually not correct in saying that only ethnic Japanese can become citizens, as this article shows:

http://www.worldpress.org/Asia/512.cfm

I'm sure his being married to a Japanese helped, and it is pretty rare, but I was wrong in my statement...I guess times they are a-changin'. Thought the article, while rather off-topic, was pretty interesting nonetheless. Something I have learned. So..I'm not always right :D