Shorinji Kempo practitioners

[mfrench]

I am a beginning Shorinji Kempo student, and am curious about something: I've noticed that throughout these forums and elsewhere, a great many martial arts practitioners profess multiple disciplines, but typically those who list Shorinji Kempo as their art do not list others. I find this really interesting that SK practitioners seem to feel so close to their art - and its attendant philosophical tenets - that they perhaps demonstrate a higher-than-average devotion to it.

Do you think that this is the case? I might be entirely wrong about this - again, I am a beginner - so forgive my ignorance. It could be that a very unscientific investigation of a very small sample has led me to incorrect conclusions.

[tony_leith]

Like Michael, I don't have any statistically representative sample base on which to make any sort of determination about this. I suspect it does reflect the organisational structure of Shorinjikempo versus a lot of other arts. It's not unusual to see apparently very senior practioners in other styles list multiple dans in multiple systems as a 'selling point'. This has not been true of the senior Shorinjikempo instructors I've encountered.

Tony Leith

[hizaguchi]

When you see people with more than one art listed, it is usually because they have trained one art, and then they have taken up a second art to fill some gap in their abilities. When they do this, they generally want to improve a specific area of their style (such as grappling), and therefore they choose an art that is well known for its proficiency in that area (such as BJJ). Since SK does not specialize in a particular area of fighting, it is not an ideal choice for people with specific needs. But since SK is so general, it is a good choice for people seeking a versatile art, so it is most attractive to those who are learning their first martial art.

[Tripitaka of AA]

In line with other great hobbies (for want of a better collective grouping), Shorinji Kempo is easy to start, with significant improvement being experienced during the initial stages. A challenging syllabus that offers a well structured ladder of difficulty and builds sophisticated techniques from a solid foundation of good basics.

Like a Golfer, the Kenshi can experience significant improvements early on, then take a lifetime of continuous study to attain mastery. The pleasure that comes from mastering one's own body is a great reward. With philosophy subjects and background study to complement the physical training, it does feel pretty complete in itself. Not, perhaps, the "ultimate fighting machine", but then, just how many of those does society need?

[riku]

Perhaps I was a non-typical Kenshi, but while training actively I used to cross-train some other MA, too. I didn't find that cause any troubles for either art.

With respect,
Riku Ylönen

[Kimpatsu]

Let's not forget the fact that many Japanese branch masters do not allow their Shorinji Kenshi to cross-train.

[riku]

Let's not forget the fact that many Japanese branch masters do not allow their Shorinji Kenshi to cross-train.
Is that issue with SK, or general atmosphere there (in your opininion)?

With respect,
Riku Ylönen

[Kimpatsu]

Is that issue with SK, or general atmosphere there (in your opininion)?
Gassho.
It's a general thing, Riku, although some styles are more leniant in that regard than others. It stems from a very different cultural tradition with regard to training. In the West, training is seen as a commodity to be bartered. You purchase lessons from your sensei, who teaches you certain skills in return; a straightforward trade. In Japan, with the tradition of the iemoto system, training is still regarded as guild training was in Europe until the end of the 19th century. You apprentice yourself to one master, and do everything for that master, including cooking, cleaning, fetching, and carrying. You sleep under that master's roof, and devote yourself utterly to serving that master, who in return teaches you, the apprentice. Whilst living under the same roof and not needing any other work are well-nigh impossible in the 21st century (we need full-time jobs to feed ourselves, among other things), shades of this tradition can be seen in such practices as Mizuno Sensei expecting his British students to fold his dogi and carry his bag for him before and after practice, or how his students were expected to do all the work for him when he moved house. The point of all this being that you cannot serve two masters, and so to cross-train is to imply that you are dissatisfied with the training you are receiving from your current master. It is viewed as a betrayal.
In 2001, I met a German national who was training in Shorinji Kempo here in Tokyo. About 18 months later, I learned that his branch master had subsequently told him to leave Shorinji Kempo and never return, as on non-SK training days, he had been training--and grading--in karate. His master was disgusted and furious that the German had betrayed him in this manner, and had not even seen fit to say that he was cross-training. Whereas (although I never met him again), I'm convinced that from the German's POV, cross-training was no big deal, and he had no more need to tell his Shorinji Kempo sensei of his cross-training than he needed to seek sensei's approval for what he ate on non-training days. This is not the first time a cultural clash has resulted in adverse consequences, and nor will it be the last. Unless, in the words of Mizuno Sensei, we all become more Japanese...
Kesshu.

[Colin Linz]

While I generally agree with Tony Kehoe, I think that cross training is more common in Japan now. I met one Japanese sensei in at the Kyoto Kosen that had 20 different dan levels, while I know of at least one WSKO instructor that studied Judo to a dan level just so he could improve his Shorinji Kempo techniques against Judoka. Even Todorki sensei from Sydney studies Karate under another Japanese teacher in Australia. Generally speaking though, I think the incidence of this is quite low in Shorinji Kempo as compared to some other arts.

From my perspective, I have done other arts before becoming a kenshi, and a couple since becoming a kenshi. As I was in the Defence Force for a number of years I would be moved around a bit. Sometimes I found it difficult to get to a branch as often as I would have liked. This led me to train in some local styles, just to keep some degree of practice up between training sessions. What this taught me was that it was very hard to replace Shorinji Kempo; everything else left me feeling empty. Shorinji Kempo has a really strong feeling of esprit de corp, but apart from this it also re-enforced my understanding of the depth of technical understanding Shorinji Kempo has. For this reason I decided not to worry about cross training. Maybe at some time in the future, when I have learnt everything Shorinji Kempo has to teach, I might consider something else.

[Kimpatsu]

Everything, Colin? In 0ther words, never.

[riku]

Thanks for clarification, Tony (the God). I kind of knew that MAs perhaps are not seen simply as hobby - or even way of life - in Japan, but that total picture has been a bit vague previously. Additional question: is this similar attitude seen also outside of MA world, in other classic arts, like ikebana or calligraphy?

With respect,
Riku Ylönen

[tracethebass]

Maybe at some time in the future, when I have learnt everything Shorinji Kempo has to teach, I might consider something else.

That's the point, when there's so much to SK why go elsewhere.
Regards Tracey

[Colin Linz]

Everything, Colin? In 0ther words, never.
It’s certainly not going to happen any time soon that’s for sure, and I seriously doubt that I could ever find another martial art that could engage me to the extent of Shorinji Kempo.

[Colin Linz]

That's the point, when there's so much to SK why go elsewhere.
Regards Tracey
Shorinji Kempo does have a wide range of techniques, but the best thing about it is its continuity. It has been designed in a way that all the techniques work in with each other, and are all part of the whole. This doesn’t happen when you go off to Karate for a while, then on to Aikido, and maybe do some Tai Boxing or BJJ. You end up with differing technical principles that can be in conflict with each other, while you never spend enough time to fully understand any of the arts you experience.

This is not to say that Shorinji Kempo is the best or most complete art out there. What I have learned though, is that I am better served through just concentrating on Shorinji than moving around trying to absorb other arts techniques into my repertoire when Shorinji Kempo has a technique that defends against the same attack.

[Kimpatsu]

Thanks for clarification, Tony (the God). I kind of knew that MAs perhaps are not seen simply as hobby - or even way of life - in Japan, but that total picture has been a bit vague previously. Additional question: is this similar attitude seen also outside of MA world, in other classic arts, like ikebana or calligraphy?

Yes, Riku. You can't train undr two calligraphy masters, or two ikebana masters. You are expected to find one master, and stick with them.

[Kimpatsu]

Gassho.
Addendum to my earlier post:
Tonight, Sanagi Sensei made the subject of why cross-training is unacceptable the subject of howa. (No, no one has been caught cross-training, so I don't know why he chose it. Anyway...)
Sensei explained that cross-training is unacceptable because it's like having two girlfriends, or two wives. If you have a one-night stand whilst married, that's adultery. If you marry a second wife, that's bigamy. So, going along to another art, say a karate class (to follow on from my description of the German Kenshi above) to check it out and have a taster is, according to Sanagi Sensei, committing adultery. (Presumably, if you pay money to train for your taster, that's prostitution.) If you then sign up for a regular course of classes and start grading in karate whilst already a Shorinji Kenshi, that's bigamy.
I have not yet had the opportunity to ask him what his stance on, say, the Swedish Federation's constitution is, but I will do so at the first opportune moment after o-bon. However, the following does occur to me: the Swedish constitution says that you can cross-train, provided you don't then open a karate club whilst being a Shorinji Kempo branch master. (It says nothing about being a Shorinji Kempo 4th or 5th dan and teaching karate full-time, just so long as you don't open a Shorinji Kempo dojo as well, I believe. Would Anders Sensei or someone please confirm that my interpretation is correct?) The reason being, according to Anders Sensei, is that if you make a pronouncement on something, no one can be sure whether you're saying that with your Kenshi hat on, or your karate hat on. To sensei like Sanagi Sensei, however, everything you say in whatever walk of life is as a Shorinji Kenshi, so to say that you were making the pronouncement in another capacity is disingenuous. You don't stop being a Kenshi upon leaving the dojo, any more than your parents stop being your parents when you leave home.
If I've misinterpreted the Swedish constitution, please tell me. The notion that you are a Kenshi 24/7, however, will remain unaffected.
Final note, for the emotionally stunted who may read this: I am NOT describing my own opinion in any of this; I am describing how things are from the Japanese POV. If you don't like it, by all means explain why on this forum, but please don't shoot the messenger. OK?
Kesshu.

[Anders Pettersson]

First of all let me just state that my personal opinion is that I am not very found of cross training, mostly because I think there is more than enough to study within Shorinjikempo, so if you have more time practice more Shorinjikempo. :)
But as long as people focus on Shorinjikempo in the dojo (in the SK class) it is not possible to forbid anyone from doing other things on their free time.


However, the following does occur to me: the Swedish constitution says that you can cross-train, provided you don't then open a karate club whilst being a Shorinji Kempo branch master. (It says nothing about being a Shorinji Kempo 4th or 5th dan and teaching karate full-time, just so long as you don't open a Shorinji Kempo dojo as well, I believe. Would Anders Sensei or someone please confirm that my interpretation is correct?)
No, this is totally wrong, we don't have anything in the Swedish Shorinjikempo Federation statutes about cross training. I doubt that you have read them Tony, and even if you had read them I doubt that you would understand anything, since I don't think you can understand Swedish. ;)



The reason being, according to Anders Sensei, is that if you make a pronouncement on something, no one can be sure whether you're saying that with your Kenshi hat on, or your karate hat on.

What I have said (or rather written) is that WSKO has a rule (that can be found in the Shibu-cho hikkei [Branch masters manual]) that explains the "duties, behaviour etc." of a shibu-cho where it is written, among other things, that a shibu-cho should never teach another martial art [支部長の行動　・他武道を指導することは禁止する。]
In the WSKO Statutes however it doesn't mention anything about this (as far as I can find anyway).
On a direct question I have asked what Hombu has to say if senior kenshi participate in an open competitions in for instance kick boxing, and their reply was that it was ok as long as it is not a shibu-cho. I even specified the question to if they apply to participate under the name of their Shorinjikempo branch.
I can't say that I totally agree with their reply, but I can understand it.




If I've misinterpreted the Swedish constitution, please tell me.
Ok, I'm telling you again that you have understood it wrong. :) It feels kind of nice to tell you that. ;) :D


I am NOT describing my own opinion in any of this; I am describing how things are from the Japanese POV.

Actually I don't think that is the one and only Japanese point of view.
I will give you an example.
Morikawa-sensei of Rakuto-doin, whom you know since you have practiced there, has two sons. Don't have the details of younger son Hirohito but I think they are similar to the situation of Kazuhito.
Morikawa Kazuhito has yondan in Kendo and sandan in Iaido. He started to practice Shorinjikempo more or less as soon he could walk (Morikawa-sensei's house is connected to their dojo) and he have never stopped to practice Shorinjikempo. This means that he "cross trained" for some period. Of course this was with the understanding and knowledge of Morikawa-sensei (his father). This is the key point in the Japanese point of view (in my understanding) to let your sensei know what you are doing.

Another point, but with a different aspect, could be Morikawa-sensei himself. When Morikawa-sensei started to practice Shorinjikempo (in the Kyoto Betsuin) he had Kaiso as his teacher. Morikawa-sensei talked to Kaiso about him going to become a priest within the Jodoshu [浄土宗], this was fine with Kaiso and he apparently didn't see a conflict in that with teaching Kongo Zen as well.

The problem with cross training is where do you draw the line. Is any other martial art not ok? But some things like Kendo is obviously ok for some Japanese teachers (like Morikawa-sensei), is western martial arts ok and not budo. i.e. wrestling is ok but not judo.
Is running ok, or weight lifting?

One can not forbid kenshi to do other things on their free time, for the same reason that one can't forbid them to do certain type of work.

The key issue is that during practice in a Shorinjikempo dojo one do Shorinjikempo and if one wants to start to do another martial art you tell your teacher about your plan.

It also goes for if you are planning to practice Shorinjikempo in another dojo you should also ask your own teacher first.


If you don't like it, by all means explain why on this forum, but please don't shoot the messenger. OK?
:shoot:

;) :p

/Anders

[Kimpatsu]

So I'm right in that a 5th dan can cross-train or even teach another art, so long as they are not also a Shorinji Kempo branch master?

[Anders Pettersson]

So I'm right in that a 5th dan can cross-train or even teach another art, so long as they are not also a Shorinji Kempo branch master?
Yes according to WSKO rules.

The Swedish Federation doesn't have any rules on this, neither for or against it.
We never had any problems with it.


And what do you mean by another art?
Shodo? Olympic fencing? "Fitness boxing"?


/Anders

[Kimpatsu]

Any pugilistic art, I suppose. I think it's avoidance of philosophical conflict that's the issue here; i.e., the idea being that one can't practice both "half for yourself and half for others" and any art that teaches "crush, kill, destroy". That's what I understand it to mean, anyway.
---
PS: You're up late!

[5 Animal Disciple]

Yes, Riku. You can't train undr two calligraphy masters, or two ikebana masters. You are expected to find one master, and stick with them.

I Study Shaolin Wu Xing Ba Fa Quan, a very complete martial art, and some times people cross train to learn a new set of skills my Sifu also teaches Chen Tai Chi Ch'uan and he encourages people to also study Tai Chi or Xing Yi or Ba Gua because techniqus and aproaches are different, like in Ba Gua open hand strikes employed with the circle walking its a completely different system and sometimes people want to learn other skills not present in their art like my style of shaolin dosent have diamond hand strikes, circle walking or the palm changes so its not that shorinji kempo is not complete (Because it is an adaptation of shaolin brought from China) but people want to learn what else is out there.

[Kimpatsu]

First of all let me just state that my personal opinion is that I am not very found of cross training, mostly because I think there is more than enough to study within Shorinjikempo, so if you have more time practice more Shorinjikempo. :)
But as long as people focus on Shorinjikempo in the dojo (in the SK class) it is not possible to forbid anyone from doing other things on their free time.


No, this is totally wrong, we don't have anything in the Swedish Shorinjikempo Federation statutes about cross training. I doubt that you have read them Tony, and even if you had read them I doubt that you would understand anything, since I don't think you can understand Swedish. ;)




What I have said (or rather written) is that WSKO has a rule (that can be found in the Shibu-cho hikkei [Branch masters manual]) that explains the "duties, behaviour etc." of a shibu-cho where it is written, among other things, that a shibu-cho should never teach another martial art [支部長の行動　・他武道を指導することは禁止する。]
In the WSKO Statutes however it doesn't mention anything about this (as far as I can find anyway).
On a direct question I have asked what Hombu has to say if senior kenshi participate in an open competitions in for instance kick boxing, and their reply was that it was ok as long as it is not a shibu-cho. I even specified the question to if they apply to participate under the name of their Shorinjikempo branch.
I can't say that I totally agree with their reply, but I can understand it.




Ok, I'm telling you again that you have understood it wrong. :) It feels kind of nice to tell you that. ;) :D



Actually I don't think that is the one and only Japanese point of view.
I will give you an example.
Morikawa-sensei of Rakuto-doin, whom you know since you have practiced there, has two sons. Don't have the details of younger son Hirohito but I think they are similar to the situation of Kazuhito.
Morikawa Kazuhito has yondan in Kendo and sandan in Iaido. He started to practice Shorinjikempo more or less as soon he could walk (Morikawa-sensei's house is connected to their dojo) and he have never stopped to practice Shorinjikempo. This means that he "cross trained" for some period. Of course this was with the understanding and knowledge of Morikawa-sensei (his father). This is the key point in the Japanese point of view (in my understanding) to let your sensei know what you are doing.

Another point, but with a different aspect, could be Morikawa-sensei himself. When Morikawa-sensei started to practice Shorinjikempo (in the Kyoto Betsuin) he had Kaiso as his teacher. Morikawa-sensei talked to Kaiso about him going to become a priest within the Jodoshu [浄土宗], this was fine with Kaiso and he apparently didn't see a conflict in that with teaching Kongo Zen as well.

The problem with cross training is where do you draw the line. Is any other martial art not ok? But some things like Kendo is obviously ok for some Japanese teachers (like Morikawa-sensei), is western martial arts ok and not budo. i.e. wrestling is ok but not judo.
Is running ok, or weight lifting?

One can not forbid kenshi to do other things on their free time, for the same reason that one can't forbid them to do certain type of work.

The key issue is that during practice in a Shorinjikempo dojo one do Shorinjikempo and if one wants to start to do another martial art you tell your teacher about your plan.

It also goes for if you are planning to practice Shorinjikempo in another dojo you should also ask your own teacher first.


:shoot:

;) :p

/Anders
Please see this link. (http://asianmartialart.proboards17.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=ShorinjiKempo&thread=1127571121)
Gassho.

[Anders Pettersson]

Please see this link. (http://asianmartialart.proboards17.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=ShorinjiKempo&thread=1127571121) Gassho.
Gassho.

Hi Tony (and everybody else).

Honestly I really doesn't have the time to reply on this, but as it happens the night shift I am doing right now is quite relaxed (at the moment anyway, can change in a second :) ).


First of all let me once again state that I don't like cross-training myself. I think that there is more than enough to study within Shorinjikempo. However I do try and do some running etc., but we haven't really agreed on if that is cross training or not.
I also think that I can not prohibit what kenshi do on their free time, but I do not accept that they practice other things while in a Shorinjikempo dojo.

I will quote your post from Asian Martial arts


I have answered here because of the antipathy towards me on Budoseek. This should not influence your understanding of what I must say, before you all come over here next month and kill me.
Sorry that you can't reply here, where we have this discussion.
Will most likely not even try to kill you when I come to Japan next week. ;)



Arguing that because Morikawa fils has a black belt in Kendo as well as Shorinji Kempo thereby justifies cross-training is disingenuous.
I am not arguing about it, I gave an example.
And you should also know that they don't have "black belts" Kendo, they don't use belts as an indication of rank.



There is absolutely NO conflict between Shorinji Kempo and Kendo or Iaido, because Shorinji Kempo does not teach sword techniques. Ergo, there is no more any conflict than there is in holding shodan in ikebana or tea ceremony as well as in Shorinji Kempo.
And that is what I am trying to get through. Where can one draw the line?
As I wrote above:
Is any other martial art not ok? But some things like Kendo is obviously ok for some Japanese teachers (like Morikawa-sensei), is western martial arts ok and not budo. i.e. wrestling is ok but not judo.
My main point/opinion on this is that in a Shorinjikempo dojo you practice Shorinjikempo and nothing else. What you do outside the dojo on your free time I can't have any ruling about.



Secondly, in Japan until less than ten years ago, it was compulsory in Japanese schools for boys (men) to learn kendo and iaido. This rule was only changed when a Japanese family of Mormon converts sued the schoolboard in Kobe on the grounds that compulsary practice of a Shinto (i.e., heathen) art violated their religious rights. The court upheld this ruling, and as a consequence, kendo/iaido is no longer compulsory. When Morikawa fils was in school, however, practice and grading in such arts was very much compulsory. (Sensei, you may not know the latter fact, but you should certainly know the former!)
I didn't know Kendo/Iaido it was compulsory in all schools, I had the impression that most schools had some kind of Budo as a compulsory subject. Some schools Judo, some Kendo etc.



More to the point, Mizuno Sensei prohibits cross-training, period. Unless you think you know better than he does, why continue to disobey his direct orders? After all, he outranks you.
Tony, I have a good relationship with Mizuno-sensei. He has never told me anything like this and I do not disobey his orders.
You suggesting that he give orders is just silly.
Oh, and I am aware of that Mizuno-sensei has higher rank than me. :rolleyes:

And by the way has Mizuno-sensei asked you to tell me what he thinks?
After all you don't outrank me. :p


Please read again what I wrote above, I actually think that you can read, so please do that.

What I am arguing with you is that you stated that the Swedish Shorinjikempo Federation had statues (we don't have a constitution, but statutes) that said it is ok to cross-train. Your quote:
the Swedish constitution says that you can cross-train, provided you don't then open a karate club whilst being a Shorinji Kempo branch master.
Our Federation's statutes doesn't mention cross-training. Period.
It doesn't mention that you can't drive a car without a driving licence either. ;)

The only rule about this in WSKO is what I wrote above; the part in the Shibu-cho hikkei [Branch masters manual]) that mentions that as a Shibu-cho you are not allowed to teach another martial art.




BTW, I don't need to be able to read the Swedish Federation's constitution in Swedish; I only need to be able to read the Japanese translation, because the Japanese translation takes precedence. (A clause that is entered into all Japanese contracts as a matter of course.) I.e., if there is a linguistic disagreement between the Swedish (or the English, or the German, or the French, or ther Dutch...) and the Japanese version, the Japanese will ALWAYS take precedence.
Obviously you don't know much about how a national federation within WSKO is run.

There is no Japanese translation of the Swedish Federation statutes, so there can not be any Japanese version that takes precedence. WSKO have statutes and Bylaws that have a Japanese version and an English translation.
However our federation statutes are based on regulations for our type of organisation that are necessary for us to work in Sweden. The WSKO statutes and our federation's statutes regulate different things.


So, now I've told the truth (again!), presumably you want to kill me even more. (Or just let Alex Tilly Sensei loose on me, or whatever...)
Not quite the truth, but whatever. :rolleyes:
And by the way, the last comments were also very silly.


Next month you all get your chance to kill me. Please just make sure it's not because you're shooting the messenger.

If you don't want to get shot at, don't deliver messages that no one asked you to deliver.

Take care and I guess I see you at the Kokusai Taikai/Koshukai (or before that if you are going to Hombu for the Koshukai sanji).

/Anders

[Kimpatsu]

YoU7re coming over next week already, Sensei? That's early. Will you be coming to Tokyo, or going straight to Kyoto?

[Anders Pettersson]

YoU7re coming over next week already, Sensei? That's early. Will you be coming to Tokyo, or going straight to Kyoto?
Gassho.

I will be arriving at Kansai on Friday, short visit to Kyoto and then going to Tadotsu on Friday afternoon.
Attending the Koshukai sanji and Daruma sai at Hombu on the weekend (1-2 of Oct.). Returning to Kyoto before going to Fukui the following weekend (WSKO Council meeting and Kokusai Taikai).

Short visit again after the Kokusai Koshukai at Hombu in Kyoto and Rakuto-doin before going back to Sweden.

I will, as it looks right now, only be Kyoto, Fukui and Tadotsu this time. Maybe a short trip to Kobe together with Robert Persson (he is going with me to Koshukai sanji and will go to Kobe to work for a week or so after that. He used to be a member in Ashiya-doin and I might visit Ashiya-doin and Hanaki-sensei with him).

/Anders

[MagicElvis]

I should be at the Daruma Sai on Sunday so I may see ya there!
Aaron

[Gary Dolce]

I don't like cross-training and see no reason to do so myself. However, as Anders has pointed out, there are no specific restrictions against it in the WSKO Bylaws other than the prohibition on Branch Masters teaching other martial arts.

Tony has pointed out that some teachers prohibit cross training. However this does not seem to be a universal rule among all Japanese teachers. Tony has pointed out that some of the examples previously given involve skills separate from Shorinji Kempo (e.g., sword skills). Since we don't do much ground-work, could the same be said of a grappling style like BJJ? Where does this distinction end? I know of at least one case of a senior member of a Japanese Branch who also practices karate. I can also point to the example of a recent non-Japanese staff member at Hombu who also practices aikido. So nothing seems to be quite as universally black and white as Tony indicates.

Cross-trainers do sometimes cause problems in a Branch. There was a time when I told prospective students that I wouldn't take them if they planned to continue in another martial art. The result was that I lost some prospective students who seemed to have good attitudes and might have become good Kenshi, and ones who really wanted to take Shorinji Kempo just lied about what else they were doing - a worse transgression than cross-training. Now I just ask that they let me know what else they are doing and that they focus of Shorinji Kempo when they are in my class. If there was ever a situation where the cross-training was having a negative affect on other members of my Branch, I wouldn't hesitate to ask them to leave. I also still strongly discourage martial arts gypsies - people with a history of going from dojo to dojo in the mistaken belief that a little bit of knowledge about a lot of things leads to true understanding.

Finally, I will say that one of the students that I most enjoyed teaching was one who practiced in my Branch for about a year while he was working on his shodan in judo. He was completely respectful, didn't ever say "well in judo, we do it this way", and didn't expect to be treated differently just becuase of his other experience. He also had great balance and footwork and was a very convincing attacker for juho. Overall his contribution to the Branch was very positive and it would have been a loss for us if I had told him he couldn't practice.

[Tripitaka of AA]

I would really like to think that we could entice Anders and Gary on to this forum more often. With contributors like these, giving articulate accounts of their experienced interpretations of Shorinji Kempo. With quality entries like this, I wouldn't have to write so much of my rubbish :laugh:

[David Dunn]

I wish more people would come to budoseek. It's got a different ambience to e-budo, and I think the discussions develop diffferently.

On Japanese attitudes to cross-training, I recommend the interview with Hirokazu Kanazawa in Budo masters: paths to a far mountain. He is a master of shotokan karatedo, and yet has also trained in Tai Chi most of his life. He met much resistance to the latter from his karatedo sensei ("if you have enough time for tai chi, perhaps you're not practicing karate hard enough"). So he never mentioned it again, but carried on regardless, and never attempted to sythesise the two.

Tony - it seems a bit silly to try to take the discussion to another forum. As long as the forum rules here are abided by, I don't think David or I are trigger happy about what you can and can't say.

On a completely different note I'm envious now of those going to Japan for the events. I hope it's enjoyable and fruitful all round, and that I can do the same in two years time.

[Brady Robinson]

I wish more people would come to budoseek. It's got a different ambience to e-budo, and I think the discussions develop diffferently.

I agree. It seems much friendlier here!

I've often considered some cross-training in something like Judo to learn more about ground work, as well as in something like Kendo or Iaido, but I think that I won't be ready for that for a long while yet-- there's still plenty for me to learn about Shorinji Kempo before I'll feel comfortable starting something else!