Kata information.

[Jango007]

I was wondering, when you first started karate how did you learn your kata and basic moves? Did the sensai repeatedly go over them with you? Did you learn the kata on your own with the help or books/internet or some other information source? How lond did it take you to learn your first kata?

Regards,
J.

[TonyU]

Good question.
Befroe I answer I've asked the powers above me to move this thread. I believe it may be better suited to be in the karate or general martial arts section.

Now as far as how long did it take to learn a kata depends on your definitiion of learning it. If you mean by memorization then that depended on the kata. If you mean by perfecting it, well, I'm still working on that.
When I was younger and first started I had the ability to memorize a kata in one day. I memorized 4 in one day, but that was because they were similar to ones I knew from a previous art.
The ones that gave me the most trouble were the Naihanchis in our system. It took a while to teach my mind and body to do things sideways as opposed to forward.
One of the things that helped was that I was alot younger with plenty of free time. So when I learned a kata empty hand or kobudo) I had ample time to practice it when I got home and subsequent days after.
Recently I was shown one of our Tuifa kata (which I used to know), memorized it in one session, but haven't had the time to continue my practice. Thus I forgot it gain.

[Jango007]

Yea it was meant to be in the karate forum I just made a mistake and posted it under the internal arts. So thanks for getting them to move it to here.

Man to memorize four katas in one day, thats pretty impressive I must say.

I was wondering, say for example when you was learning your first kata, did your sensai dedicate the whole dojo time on that day to teach you and the students that kata or did he teach you a few times and moved on to something else? Also if you don't memorzie your kata well say a simple one in one day is that a bad thing, a normal thing or what?

Am asking these questions because these are some of the things I am thinking about when joining a martial art.

Thank you,
J.

[dreese]

Hi!
Don't worry how long it will take you to learn a kata. It's different for each kata and person. The easiest way I've found to learn a kata is to get a black belt to stay on the floor before or after class to teach me. It's one on one, you are not rushed, and they will explain what you are doing in the kata. I only use videos when I'm doing katas at home and I forget something I'll get on our website and find a testing video of someone doing that kata.

[TonyU]

Debra is right. Don't worry or panic. Is still a good discussion nevertheless.
What was done with me and still do is this,
The student first sees the whole kata performed by those who know it in a group setting. A black belt (many times me) would then take the student aside and start teaching it to them while the class is working on the higher katas.
If my sensei then goes into something else then he/she will return to the class. By that I mean in a typical class conducted we do everything, katas, drills, bunkais self defense, and lastly sparring so the student does not get forgotten.
Now as the kata is taught, they first start with several moves, repeat a couple of times, then start from the beginning and keep adding several more moves. Depending on the length of the kata we maintain that same rhythm until they get it all. If not they get the rest next time they come to class or however long it takes them.
Now here's something my sensei does, the minute you start learning it he makes sure you do it with us in a class setting by the count, starting that same day you started learning it, even if you don't know it all yet. You just stop at the point you can't go any further.
Also many times like Debra stated a student may ask a higher belt for help with the kata.
We don't have a problem with a student teaching a kata even they're just one belt higher then the student learning it.
Remember this is just memorization. It's up to the sensei and us then make sure we refine it as they go along.
Another thing to remember everyone learns different. A good school and instructor will work with you. They should challenge you but not overwhelm or coddle you. It's a fine line.

[TonyU]

Something else I forgot to mention.
As I teach the kata, at certain points throughout the kata I demonstrate (not teach) the bunkai so they can get a better understanding of the kata.

[dreese]

We also do like Tony said, the instructor will put the lower ranks with the upper ranks to work on basics and katas. Tony made alot of good points. Right now really make sure you find a good school. Ask around, go watch or see if they will let you try out the class before you join. Just make sure you don't get trapped in a "mcdojo". Then when you get there train hard, and don't compare yourself to the other students. Only compete with yourself. My Sensei fussed at me about that Monday night. He caught me (1st kyu brown) tring to keep up with a 6th degree Shihan.

[Gene Williams]

Debra is right. Don't worry or panic. Is still a good discussion nevertheless.
What was done with me and still do is this,
The student first sees the whole kata performed by those who know it in a group setting. A black belt (many times me) would then take the student aside and start teaching it to them while the class is working on the higher katas.
If my sensei then goes into something else then he/she will return to the class. By that I mean in a typical class conducted we do everything, katas, drills, bunkais self defense, and lastly sparring so the student does not get forgotten.
Now as the kata is taught, they first start with several moves, repeat a couple of times, then start from the beginning and keep adding several more moves. Depending on the length of the kata we maintain that same rhythm until they get it all. If not they get the rest next time they come to class or however long it takes them.
Now here's something my sensei does, the minute you start learning it he makes sure you do it with us in a class setting by the count, starting that same day you started learning it, even if you don't know it all yet. You just stop at the point you can't go any further.
Also many times like Debra stated a student may ask a higher belt for help with the kata.
We don't have a problem with a student teaching a kata even they're just one belt higher then the student learning it.
Remember this is just memorization. It's up to the sensei and us then make sure we refine it as they go along.
Another thing to remember everyone learns different. A good school and instructor will work with you. They should challenge you but not overwhelm or coddle you. It's a fine line.

This is very much the way my dojo works.

[TonyU]

This is very much the way my dojo works.
Well,, you know what they say.....








Great minds think alike.

Except I can't seem to find my mind as of late. :)

[Gene Williams]

Did you look in the beer cooler? :D I leave mine there sometimes.

[Jango007]

First of all let me say thank you to everyone for replying.

Debra I like your idea of getting a black belt to teach you before of after class, I will definately be doing this, so thank you. "My Sensei fussed at me about that Monday night. He caught me (1st kyu brown) tring to keep up with a 6th degree Shihan." LOL I would of definately been trying to keep up with other people aswell when I join, it's just a habit in mostly everything I do, if not to keep up but even to out compete. Maybe we are just very competitive eh? :)


TonyU I like the idea of breaking down the katas in parts, so thank you for that aswell.

"They should challenge you but not overwhelm or coddle you. It's a fine line" Man I gota disagree if my sensai is a beautiful woman I wouldn't mind her coddling me anytime :P My girlfriend would not be to impressed if she read that lol.

On a side no I was wondering what you meant by Bunkai? Also what is a McDojo?

Thanks again,
J.

[dreese]

Tim,
On this site you'll find lots of information about mcdojos. Mostly they just want your money they don't care about your training. There have been some 2 dans come into our dojo and have their heads handed to them by a colored belt. And you know it will not work on the street. But the mcdojos will tell you it will.
Bunkai is telling you what the moves in the kata are. It's really cool, you'll learn new stuff in katas as long as you do them.
Oh yeah, after you have trained a while, try to beat the guy to your left or directly in frount of you.

[Jango007]

Ok thanks for the advice and info really appreciate it.

Jango.

[poetic misjustice]

well my favorite way to memorise kata would be to first go over it a few times to get the hang of the moves, then to associate that kata with earlier kata i had learnt and know very well, i almost never learn more than one kata in one day i find it very distracting because i like to go over everything i learnt that day in my mind later and i'll just end up getting mixed up so basically just go over it again and again, and associate it with katas from before, like in kshanku the sixth kata it starts off almost exactly like the second, pinan shodan, but then goes on to a strike kick and empiuchi like in the fourth kata pinan yodan, so what i say to myself while doing the kata is "meditative stance four seconds, second kata, fourth kata, then concentrate on the bits that are different"

[Jango007]

Steven, the way you say you learn your katas reminds me of how I learn my a-level work. I only revised one subject per day so I would not mix up the information with other subjects. So it's sounds good what your saying wouldn't hurt to give it a try. Right now am trying to learn the basic moves first though before I start doing kata. I know the basic moves and have been taught them, I just want to get really good at them now thats what am working hard on.

I can't believe your only 18 though and doing or did three martial arts. Pretty cool man.

Regards,
J.

[jakmak52]

The assistant BB's would break the kata into 2 parts, showing us all the moves in the first half, going over and over again, then doing the second half the same way. Then we'd run them together till they became memorized and tweaked. The length of learning time was determined by the length and complexity of the kata. After learning all the katas for BB testing, we'd practice the katas up and down the range of first learned katas to the most recently learned, over and over and over again.... :o

[poetic misjustice]

thanks tim apprieciate it,
yeah comparing it to revising a-levels is a pretty good analogy, i'm only a 4th kyu in karate though, but that brings me onto another point, if you're trying to learn kata or kihon then the best way to do it is write down each move and mesmerize them in order just like maths for example

1. gedan berai
2. junzuki
3. muwashe gedan berai
4. uchi
5. junzuki

and so forth

P.S i may have made that point in my previous post

[Gene Williams]

thanks tim apprieciate it,
yeah comparing it to revising a-levels is a pretty good analogy, i'm only a 4th kyu in karate though, but that brings me onto another point, if you're trying to learn kata or kihon then the best way to do it is write down each move and mesmerize them in order just like maths for example

1. gedan berai
2. junzuki
3. muwashe gedan berai
4. uchi
5. junzuki

and so forth

P.S i may have made that point in my previous post


How do you hypnotize a karate technique?

[poetic misjustice]

oops my bad, i meant memorise, as in learn of by heart, thanks for that gene

[Jango007]

Ok thank you all for replying I will use this knowledge to my advantage. Can't wait now actually to start the katas.

Regards,
Jango.

[gary.williams]

i used to find learning kata very difficult, used to take me months to learn and then i just about got it right before my grading.

however, as i progressed further i seem to find them easier to learn!!! insane i know. I recently learnt kanku-sho in an hour of a training class.

Anyway, what i alway felt would have helped was some kind of kata guide. obviously not to learn the whole kata from, no book or website could replace a living instructor, but to help with those little bits which hold you back. What move links these parts together, how should one position the hips in this move, etc. etc.

As an attempt to give something back to my art which i have studied for 11 years, i've began to create a website, www.karateonline.org

have a look at it and tell me if you think it could help, would it be useful, what suggestions do you have.

many thanks

gary

[Sochin]

Hi Gary,

very nice start but you should look at a couple of things.

If a link says I will go to articles, then a click on it should take me to articles not an intermediate page. And a list of 'links' should not include any non-links, except at the end and then only if clearly labeled as "prospective links."

And, if you want to be taken serious with your forum, you gotta leave bravenet behind...those killer adds are just that, they kill your forum and the site. imho.

[poetic misjustice]

My sensei taught me all my katas, he'd take a couple aside, 3 at most and teach them the kata over and over again until every move was sharp and perfect, then we'd learn the next kata during the next session.

[Cyriades]

My sensei would always drill the basics of a kata with me first. Then he would drill the first half of the kata itself, making sure I had its "feel" down before moving on. Repeat for the second half. Finally he'd explain the bunkai and such. Ah the memories ^_^

gary, just work on your layout, spelling and such. You seem to have plenty of content so far, though.

[Jango007]

Gary, the website is actually quite good a good bit of information. I think you just need to work on the layout and the colour of the website. Make sure everything works aswell. Good luck.

And thanks to everyone who had an input on kata learning.

Regards,
Jango