What is the best knife fighting system? [Archive] - BudoSeek! Martial Arts Community Forums

John Bennett

11-25-2001, 12:26

Yesterday I attended a short knife fighting clinic at a local school.

The instructor showed us basic cuts. We worked this sequence:

neck left slash/right slash
abdomen l/r
thigh l/r
groin stab
reverse back to stab into clavicle
turn-over to stab into other clavicle
eye hook l/r
straight down the middle
straight up the middle

I know absolutely nothing about these knife fighting systems. Does that sound like anything you've ever heard of?

Because of the nature of the class, I didn't get an opportunity to ask the instructor about the theory behind this drill or where it came from.

It seemed kinda complicated to me. I carry a knife. If I ever needed to use it, I always just envisinoed myself clinching with the guy and trying to cut open his femoral or cartoid artery, whichever was available.

Which system of offensive knife fighting is generally considered to be the most practical? Hock Hockheim? Army CQB or something?

Any help appreciated!

Jeff Burger

11-25-2001, 13:42

Kali , Arnis ,Silat or Escrima...to be honest i could tell you the difference between them...Id say bigger differences in teachers than style.
From what I have done we worked more cutting the limbs (defang the snake) than going for body/neck.

Grappling with knives is just a real scary situation...we have played around with magic markers.

I have seen lots of tapes but I really wouldnt say any of them did a good job...Ron Bilicki did a defense against knives tape that was good.
The knife fighting and stick fighting were pretty much the same...but the reality is you still need to hit with power with the stick the knife can be pure speed.

FEAR THE BLADE
Spydrco...wavy seration...slash at a hunk of meat with one of those...very impressive.

JMB

Sgathak

11-25-2001, 14:02

We do ALOT of knife work in Systema, including grappling with the blade. I wont (and cant) go into detail.

Knives should never be more complicated than they need to be. A knife should be nothing more than a sharp extention of your arm. If its too complicated and you try to use it, your more likely to "go stupid" and forget what it is your trying to do. Keep it simple. If it works "naked" it will work if you have a knife in your hands. (cant do a grab? just stick the friggin knife in where you were going to grab instead. Use it for leverage if you need to! Gonna punch? punch with the knife, if nothing else it adds weight to the punch OR you land a good solid punch and they get 3-6 inches of steel instead of a 2 knuckle punch.

Dont EXPECT to get cut, but understand it can happen. and if it does happen... Winners dribble, loosers gush.

Dont gush

Sochin

11-25-2001, 14:30

I doubt if you will find a consensus on practicality anywhere.

Some systems (FMA) are large with many complicated patterns to learn and to practice. This does not necessarily promote impracticality but it does tend to lengthen the time to gaining a practical expression.

Some teachers pride themselves on stripping the larger systems down to practical basics - what works best for them - but then they decuce that because it is good for them it must be good for everyone.

The fallacy would be that someone of a different body type and / or temperament might choose a different set of combinations and drill to keep when they strip down the larger art.

It behooves us all to get as much of the larger picture as we can and then play with it enough to know what works for us and what doesn't. We must learn the principles behind the drills. From doing this I have learned that I do better work with my point forward rather than in a reverse grip. I also do better on attack than on defense. I know why I should change stanes when I change my mind about what I am going to do. I've learned flexability.

So I concentrate on developing these things... What suits me best are the older western stuff from Cold Steel by STyers and Cassidy's book, Knife Fighting. It might not suit you. I also practice some Arnis that I learned from the Professor.

I guess I'm not a fan of the idea that knife work is just empty hand work with a blade in your fist. Yes, it can be done that way but it looses all subtlety. I know that I use my hands in ways with a knife that I have never considered with my empty hand work. I'd never twist my hands around when empty like I do to keep my edge aligned when I have a blade in my hand. I also never punch to miss the target and then draw back along the surface of the target in a slicing motion like I do with a snap cut.

Just remember, Eclecticism can be fun! :)

John Bennett

11-25-2001, 14:41

"Knives should never be more complicated than they need to be."

That's what I was thinking. The class I attended yesterday seemed kinda overly complicated. The instructor kept moving us up to ever more complicated sequences of slashes and stabs.

I just couldn't envision myself standing there engaging in a slashing match with some guy.

My personal strategy for offensive knife use goes like this. (I carry a Spyderco Delica).

1. There's no escape. Knife attack is justified because of multiple attackers or the other guy has a weapon.

2. Try to keep my knife hidden and give continuous apologies ergo begging for mercy, to be left alone.

3. At an opportune moment, shoot in with cover and try to open the carotid or femoral artery.

4. Shove the guy away and Run like hell.

In 1977 I saw two guys engage in a slashing match at an Aerosmith concert in the hallway of the Herch Memorial Collesium in Shreveport, Louisiana. They basically stood there with their faces buried in the crooks of their elbow of one arm, and used their other arm to slash at each other.

They mainly just cut each other all over their arms. I and all the other spectators (and the ceiling and floors) got covered with little specks of blood.

Yesterday the instructor had us stand with our right foot forward if the knife was in our right hand, knife out front, free hand behind.

This seemed counter-intuitive to me. I kept wanting to keep my free hand in front so I could use it to grab and hold the guy while I stabbed with the knife in my other hand. Plus, I've always favored a weak-side forward stance (my left). It's what feels natural to me.

Jeff Burger

11-25-2001, 15:48

My plan if faced with a knife...
1. projectiles first...anything i can get a hand on...a glass, a drink , a phone...anything

2. projectiles second...I dont want to be any where near this person...seems ever since man threw his first rock he has just been developing better rocks.

3. positon...can i get something between me and them (which will give me more time to throw stuff)

4.get a weapon to harm or to sheild or both...go for the hand not the man (the hand with the knife)

5.if I had to fight hand vs. blade...i got one more projectile...spit in his face (time gap)(thats if my aderalin filled body can produce it) strike the weaponed arm or grab it if possible...low kicks (this is where a nice long side kick would be nice.

I have gotten stabbed twice...right oblique and right buttock. Buttock i didnt know until afterwards but when I saw all the blood I got real light headed. Oblique was an envelope opener... hurt like hell and we were standing grappling and he was still pushing on it after penetration...I could feel the point moving around inside. I tried squeezing his throat with my left,my right trying to push the knife back out, I wasnt winning so I grabbed his head and stuck my thumb in his eye....all the way down to the web we dug eachother for a few seconds and someone broke us up. There wasnt much room to move around and I was half over a desk.
I have seen a few people get stabbed and Im surprised none of them went down right away if at all. We took a friend of ours to the hospital after getting stabbed and he thought he just needed a few stitches...he spent a few days in the hospital.

JMB

Sgathak

11-25-2001, 16:00

REPEAT...

DO NOT LET CHILDREN SEE THIS!

http://www.swordforumbugei.com/ubb/Forum16/HTML/000087.html

Jeff Burger

11-25-2001, 16:18

What can I say but...YUP.

(hey you sure thats real...I could swear some of those strikes went across super deadly double secret Dim Mak meridians...sorry I couldnt resist)

JMB

John Bennett

11-25-2001, 20:41

BLYECH!!!

THAT is the reason I don't envision myself stand there having a slashing match with some guy.

Oh man. I HATE getting hit. I hate getting cut even more.

Too close or too far.

Too close or too far.

Too close or too far.

Too close or too far.

I want to be so close to the guy he can't even move his arms (and I'm moving them for him, breaking them), or so far away he can't hit or cut me.

Too close or too far. That's all I can think.

Webmaster

11-25-2001, 21:33

Sgathak.. thanks for the link to those rather educational pictures. This is the reason I tell my students to (a) give him your wallet, (b) run like hell, or (c) find a field expedient weapon of some type, (d) run like hell, and (e) deal with the weapon empty handed only as a last resort. Obviously, I like the "run like hell" technique. :D

As far as knife fighting is concerned, I have no doubt that the Filipino Martial Arts have the edge (no pun intended) there. I have trained a bit while in the Philippines, and have seen it close up. In my case it was a bit too close up, and luckly I was armed with a M1911A1 .45 with a round in the chamber, in my hand and sighted in at center mass.

For my money, the FMA would be my knife system of choice.

RA Miller

11-30-2001, 03:07

I'm not sure it can be called a system, but Central American knife techniques have quite a reputation... it seems predicated on the knife entering the opponent's body before the opponent has any reason to believe that an altercation is under way.

We were briefed a couple of years ago that there was a string of "walk-by" hamstringings at crowded events, all gang-on-gang.

Not quite a perfect quote, but: "I thought I was doing great and then I looked down and there was a knife in my stomach!"

Jeff Burger

12-01-2001, 09:55

A sucker punch or stab can be considered a technique or a strategy but thats not a system.

My right bottuck got stabbed while we (some friends and myself) got into a little scuffle that escalated...I didnt know I got stabbed until an officer asked if i was ok...it took me a minute realize it was my blood.

JMB

Bad Karma

02-24-2002, 17:04

Here the God honest truth, I'd rather be shot than cut on any given day. Knowing this, I will do whatever it takes not to get cut. Well, on all occassions but once and that was purely situational.

Being cut....(shudder)...no thanks!

Peace

Brachialstun

06-12-2002, 12:11

When it comes to knife fighting there are several excellent sources of "realistic" knife fighting instructionals out there. The material put out by Hock, James Keating, Scott Sonnon (for the concept loving guys), and Joe Maffei is some of the best stuff I've seen. Styer's "Cold Steel" is an excellent book for certain aspects of knife fighting.

Now speaking of actual knife fighting, there is no single stance that is "best" for blade engagements. As you move during the engagement you are going to be constabtly shifting from a blade forward to a blade in the rear position. Anyone who tells you otherwise is probably limited in their exposure to blades and blade engagements.

If you are fighting with a blade you want to make sure you keep your movements quick and tight. When you overextend for a strike (slash, stab, etc) you are creating a window of oppertunity for the person to counter.

If facing a blade, try to first make an escape (throw objects, use OC, etc). If that isn't possible, you need to close the distance and attempt to gain control of the weapon bearing limb. By controling the limb, you are limiting how the weapon can be used against you.

C Clifton

RA Miller

06-13-2002, 03:30

Originally posted by Brachialstun

Now speaking of actual knife fighting, there is no single stance that is "best" for blade engagements. As you move during the engagement you are going to be constabtly shifting from a blade forward to a blade in the rear position. Anyone who tells you otherwise is probably limited in their exposure to blades and blade engagements.

C Clifton

Mr. Clifton-

Pardon me, but this is one of the areas that really bugs me- of all the people teaching "real" knife fighting and "real" blade defense how much "real" experience is it based on?

I've had four. In not one of them did the guy with the knife shift grip. It was usually (3 of 4) sudden, explosive and violent, so there was no "flow". Despite surprise, I was never cut (but almost all of the experts say you will get cut). How many of these experts developed their technique and theory by fencing in the dojo with their own students and how many of these rules were derived from experience with assaults?

Or perhaps four people trying to kill me with knives is "limited exposure"?

Rory

Brachialstun

06-13-2002, 08:02

Rory - I think you misunderstood my comment about people "shifting" during a fight. First off, its not refering to a person shifting the blade from their front hand to the rear hand, its about their bodies moving. For the most part, you are not going to see a person drop into a blade to the rear stance, then constantly stay there during the entire fight. Actually, you will rarely see a person drop into a "stance" unless you are engaged in more of a street "duel". Due to the way fights happen, a person is constantly changing "stances" thanks to the very nature of movement causing body postion changes.

Second - when it comes to "realistic" trainers and how they have come up with their material; I'll be the first to say that mostof them have had few actual knife fights. However, a good number of them have studied knife fights (through text, officer/ soldier debreifing, MVR/dashboard camera, survellience camera, footage, etc) inorder to watch the ways they actually occur and then devise methods that take this into account. After creating the new material, sure they test it out in their schools. However, the true "pressure testing" of their material is when they teach it people that go into harms way (patrol officers, soldiers, etc) and these people successfully use the material. This gives the "proof" that a trainer's "new" methods are sound.

Third - when it comes to "most experts" saying that you will get cut in a knife fight; I would group those guys with the more inexpereinced trainers. They may have great physical skill, but they are lacking proper research if they are telling everyone you WILL get cut in a knife fight. All of the trainers I know and have worked with have a pretty common line of thinking when it comes to this. "In a knife fight, you MAY get cut. This is no guarantee that you will or won't get cut during a knife fight, however you should be prepared to recieve a cut and continue fighting." None of them are telling their students or others that they are going to get cut for sure. That would be limiting the students' effectiveness by psychologically hampering them.

C Clifton

sfjohn

08-04-2003, 21:41

I have seen many posts concerning the topic of stance and blade position as well as grip. When the stuff hits the fan this stuff doesn't matter, the way you pulled your blade is typically the way you are going to use it because you don't have time to think about it. I am a firm student of knifer arts because in the city everyone has one and they are always pulled. I'm not gonna go into detail about the way you should prctice or which stance is better, I've done it all before and my reply is always the same. It doesn't matter.

The one thing I am going to leave you with is the secret to knife fighting and that is Anatomy my friends. You hear stories of people who have been cut or stabbed multiple times and lived because they were not attacked by someone who practices a knife as their craft. Every great knife instructor out there will also tell you that anatomy is key to becoming a "knifer". Most of the great knife fighters i have met study anatomy with the attention of a surgeon, because after all if they pull a knife they in effect become surgeons of death. One last thing, before you even think of learning to defend against a knife attack learn how to use the knife to attack with (competently).

-John Stenson

Sorros

08-08-2003, 20:23

What is the RMA
Terry Foster

Jay Bell

08-09-2003, 08:39

Russian Martial Art.

C Clifton,

As you move during the engagement you are going to be constabtly shifting from a blade forward to a blade in the rear position. Anyone who tells you otherwise is probably limited in their exposure to blades and blade engagements.

I'm still having a hard time with this bit here. I've seen plenty of "knife fighters" who do not follow this idea. Nor would I call their exposure "limited".

Cliff Hargrave

08-16-2003, 20:17

I have studied a little FMA and more police defensive tactics courses than I can remember. I am of the belief, based upon my many years of law enforcement, that the FMA is hard to beat but they, like most martial arts, evolve into dueling each other.

Kind of like BJJ guys working to pull off the perfect open guard sweep. It may be a great technique but doing it for real on the street probably isn't going to happen.

I remember years ago in a LE school watching a film of an actual stabbing at a prison. They had a policy of not entering the block until the reaction team arrived so one officer just filmed the entire event. I have to say that as a trained martial artist and police officer, it scared the sh*t out of me. The prison "rush and stab the torso multiple times" technique would be hard to defend. I swear this guy had fifty holes in him. He made some vain attempts at trying to grab the knife hand but once the blood started flowing it was futile.

I have taken many knives away from folks over the years, some at gunpoint, some by force, and some by verbal judo! I am happy to say though that no one has done the prison rush on me yet. I hope it never happens. I would rather be in a gunfight.

John Bennett

08-17-2003, 10:26

I'm sorry Jeff, but it always makes me smile when I read about how much you've been shot and stabbed.

I know it's really not funny, but you have to admit, it is kinda funny. :cool:

Basically, what I'm getting here is "simpler is better" ala the Prison Clinch and Stab like Cliff describes, and the systems which emphasize that are Hock's, Systema, and Styer's "Cold Steel".

Click here for Hock's stuff on the subject (http://www.hockscqc.com/knife/index.htm). Hard for me to tell exactly what he's getting at. I may be able to borrow some of his tapes.

Sochin

08-17-2003, 14:12

If it has enough moves to be a 'system.' it hass too many for fighting...

http://forums.uechi-ryu.com/viewtopic.php?t=10491

http://www.realfighting.com/0102/edgedwea.htm

ninjandrew

08-21-2003, 16:24

Any1 know where I can see some FMA in action (online). Im looking for a good knife fighting style myself. I figrued FMA would be great, but was disapointed when I saw videos of FMA dudes sparring. It seemed like they were just shooting out at open spots, and they were both getting chopped up all over the friggin place (but with sticks), it was ridiculous. It was on TV, some Escrima tournament. I still think FMA must be good because of the press I hear about it, but those videos were crap. It literally looked like they were just flippin out trying to hit eachother as much as possible without caring about there own lives. But Im sure this isnt always the case. Its hard to explain how bunk it looked without it sounding like they werent even trying. Both shoot in and slash eachother up, back up, than repeat. Holy side tracked, so yeah, any1 know some decent FMA videos???

Beth Parker

09-25-2003, 22:58

I would think that defanging the snake would be an excellent strategy for blade vs. blade fight. This also works in stick fights as well. One might hold your free hand over your heart cause u could be killed with one stab there. The common iliac artery right before it bifurcates into the femoral would be a lethal target. Fear,Adrenaline,ect... all would all play a factor that would effect technique. It makes me think of crocodile dundee "thats not a knife this is a knife"

Beth Parker

:) never bring a knife to a gun fight!

Sochin

09-26-2003, 10:23

Since we don't have any knife duelists here, this is about sparring with toy knives, right?

It is quite hard to defang the snake of someone who knows that that is what you will try to do...at least when sparring with trainers. They will move their hands 'very fast' just like a snake striking and not leave it out for you to cut up.

So, if it is difficult in a safe sparring environment with toy knives, what will happen to your ability to pull it off when you suddenly realize that someone is trying to killl you and you mess your pants?

There is a big gap between theory and practice...

Beth Parker

09-26-2003, 14:19

Quote-It is quite hard to defang the snake of someone who knows that that is what you will try to do...at least when sparring with trainers. They will move their hands 'very fast' just like a snake striking and not leave it out for you to cut up

It is true that it would difficult to defang the snake on someone who is trained in kali escrima silat ect.... But the reality is 99% of the general public dosent know what defanging the snake is. Most martial arts instructors trained in theses arts arent going to pull a knife on you anyway cause they avoid confrontation and ill bet most people who are criminal minded enough to pull a knife on you arent studied in pekiti tersia. There are however exceptions. Its not the end all but a very sound fighting strategy.
Just a thought

:) Beth Parker

Sgathak

09-26-2003, 15:05

Well, theres *generally* 2 kinds of "knife fighters".

The guys who hold onto the knife, and the guys who dont.

Im not talking about disarms, but rather the way they handle the weapon.

They either grab hold of the handle and keep it as static as possible in relation to the hand, or they flick it around like its a drum stick.

As a general rule, you can "defang" the guys who are holding onto the knife, but it becomes very difficult to defang the guys who dont hang on. This is just the bio dynamics of it. it has to do with the way the muscles work, movement of the arm, tension or relaxation of the tendons, etc.

Though its harder to "defang" a guy who is quick and loose, there are other more effective ways of dealing with their style of motion.

I dont propose to be a great knife fighting guru, but its a primary weapon for us, and back in the day Ive seen a few knives up close when I didnt want to.

admiral_packrat

12-17-2004, 23:07

The instructor showed us basic cuts. We worked this sequence:

Thats called the three of nine sequence... Orignally part of a kali workout, if i remember right... It works around the major arteries. It is handy thing to know in a life or death fight. Go for the nearest cut and work your way through the numbers

ELBOHEMIO

02-04-2005, 12:01

Mark Barlow

02-04-2005, 13:17

The Jujutsu style I practice does have knife techniques and I have faced a bladed weapon assault once or twice. While this doesn't make me an expert, I think it gives me a leg up on most folks. Training in a dojo is essential but no one really knows how they'll react until it's showtime.

My instructor said to be prepared to be cut, not because he was fatalistic but so that the students would be mentally ready if and when it happened. I've seen more than one person completely lose focus and drop their defense when they see their own blood flowing. I've been cut during a fight and while it was obviously a distraction, it didn't stop me from continuing.

Nike Ryu is still my perferred martial art when dealing with a knife but knowing I can (and have) successfully defended against a determined attacker is an enormous confidence booster.

As for which knife system is best, the answer is the same old one.."The one that works for you."

DragonMind

02-04-2005, 13:31

Hey Guys try this site. www.fcskali.com

My friends saids Ray Dionaldo system is very good. He combines diffrent Filipino Systems like Sayoc, Arnis etc. in one (Filipino Combat System).

Good Luck

:bow:
I've worked with Ray and Rico a number of times. He's beyond good. He and Rico tried an experiment to see how many cuts each could get in in under a minute against a trained defender. Ray totaled 82 cuts, at least 10 of them fatal...

Ray can find a way to cut you armed with a Nerf ball.

Mark Barlow

02-04-2005, 14:39

For simple, practical, down & dirty knife technique, Michael DeBethencourt is an excellent instructor. He's based near Boston but for a reasonable fee and the opportunity to fish, he'll go damn near anywhere.

DragonMind

02-04-2005, 15:44

Another awesome knife guy is Bram Frank. Check out www.cssdsc.com

ELBOHEMIO

02-05-2005, 12:22

Tanto Jutsu = The Art of the Knife.

It's part of the Samurai "Bujutsu".

I'n korean Arts they call it Dan Gum Sul.

Videos

http://www.dsystem.com/catalog.htm

Sochin

02-05-2005, 13:14

You don't fight with a knife, you kill with a knife.

If you pull a knife, it had better be a life or death situation or you will pay big time. If he has a firearm, he is now allowed to pull it and shoot you. If it is a life and death situation, he had better die or you will. If it is not a life and death situation, you are going against all law of self defence and good sense by escalating the confrontation into a life and death situation, which is both illegal and dangerous.

So, if you must pull a knife it is time to save your life by killing someone, only.

To practice this, get a large cardboard box like a refrigerator box, pull your knife and body slam into it and stab your knife into it until you are exhausted.
(Thanks to Don Pentecost.) How systematic is that?

Mark Barlow

02-05-2005, 13:28

[ To practice this, get a large cardboard box like a refrigerator box, pull your knife and body slam into it and stab your knife into it until you are exhausted.
(Thanks to Don Pentecost.) How systematic is that?[/QUOTE]

Excellent advice. I'm a big fan of the direct approach and there isn't anything more direct than knocking the opponent's blade aside, close the gap and stab till your arm gives out.

Mark Barlow

ELBOHEMIO

02-05-2005, 16:51

Street Dependable, Court Defendable thats what we saids and train in CQDT (Close Quater Defense Tactics). Here is a good video for reference.

BRUTAL SOLUTIONS Phase III (Weapons)

http://www.cqdt.com/Pro_Shop.html

Spartan

02-05-2005, 17:07

Cliff Hargrave

02-05-2005, 19:51

That is the way 'knife assault' is effectively done. None of the knife disarm methods commonly taught could defend againts it. Your best defence is don't let someone get that close to you, OR at least wear a bulletproof vest. If you get jumped, it is pretty much impossible to defend against.

Here is a catch......bullet proof vests (soft body armor, not really bullet proof) do not stop stabs and offer limited protection against slashes. Knife proof vests (developed for correctional officers) do not stop bullets. I guess you have to wear both to be protected..........