Taser use in France

[Nin]

Hi guys,

This question, I think, would be mostly for US law enforcement personnel:
How do you feel about the use of Taser guns?

Because recently France is testing Taser guns (X26), already some units like the GIPN ("civilian version" of the GIGN -> French SWAT) or the BAC (brigade anti-criminality, cops dressed in civilian and civilian cars) are testing them.
I'm not really familiar with real non-lethal weapons, in the army I've been using CS gases, flashbangs etc... but didn't have the chance to see about the Taser gun.

So I'd like to know from people who know/heard about/shot by it how do they feel about it? Your personnal opinion about the use of this kind of tactical tool?

Because I heard several accidents (I guess underestimated by Taser and exagerated by medias) already happend. Also isn't it a problem to shoot a guy with the Taser X26 supposed to hit to over 10m at ony 2-3m?

Thanks.

[Dennis Monk]

From everyhting I have personally seen, or read about Taser user, locally; they seem to be very safe and more reliable for taking down resistive subjects. Several agencies in our area are using them and with good results. I have not yet heard about anyone getting severely injured or maimed by them either.

[Erik]

Anyone know where that website is with the video of that lady in the Bronco who would not cooperate with the police?

They tazed her and she made quite a fuss but was just fine (though upset).

[KIT]

My agency has been using them for some time, and probably a third of our patrol personnel are Taser equipped when they hit the streets. Eventually I think the Taser will be standard equipment for all officers, like pepper spray is now.

I have been "Tased" over half a dozen times. Shot with probes, the daisy chain, hooked up with the alligator clips, and drive stunned, and in a few cases combinations. I was also brushed with a wire once during a live application. Yowch!!

It isn't fun, and is far more effective than pepper sprays or gas in disabling people. There is no problem shooting and/or driving the Taser at contact distance. It is not designed for use 10 meters away.

I know as an absolute certainly that multiple people who would have either been repeatedly hammered with batons or empty hand and injured, or who would have been shot based on the incidents in question, were Tased and escaped without injury to either officers or themselves.

There are some downsides. The "toys over tactics" mentality is strong with the Taser due to its effectiveness and officers have done some stupid things and even been killed attempting to use a Taser when lethal force was the better option.

The Taser CAN fail for different reasons - it needs to be treated as a tool, an option, like any other and its use must be tactically sound. I think some cops are so enamoured with it that they throw tactics out the window, or they seemingly go into overload and when the Taser is not having the desired effect, and just repeatedly use it to zap people when they should be transitioning to other controls. One of the things I have noticed is a tendency to tase folks until they comply, when in fact you CAN touch someone who is riding the lightning and get them into a control position for cuffing before the Taser is turned off. This is a matter of training and comfort more than anything else.

The "accidents" attributed to the Taser you will note are always reported as people dying or accidents occurring "after" being Tased. Not "because of."

Simply put, use your brain. Don't Tase someone standing on a balcony edge unless someone is there to grab him or lethal force is justified. If on the other hand someone, say a police administrator, gets so worked up because he is afraid of the thing and when he takes a hit in training, and falls and bangs his head and pees himself - is that the Taser doing it to him or did he do it to himself? Thousands of officers taking thousands of hits have not experienced anything like that.

Likewise, people who are wrapped up in drug psychosis, and who sometimes die after battling it out with multiple officers and under extreme exertion when Tasers aren't used have been candidates for the same thing happening when Tasers ARE used - they are also most likely to be the folks that will be Tased multiple times or with multiple Tasers as well.

The same kinds of things happen to promising young athletes (with and without experimentation with controlled substances) every year after exertion on the court or the field and yet no one screams that we should ban basketball or football practice.

Since the dreaded "choke hold" is the best bet outside of Tasers in a lot of these drug psychotic cases (hell, probably SAFER than the Taser done properly) - but is BANNED by myopic, under-trained and under-experienced police administrators, the alternative would be standing off and hammering them into submission with 37mm or 40mm batons or shotgun beanbags, since chemicals tend to have little effect with these folks.

Imagine how that would play on the evening news.

[Nin]

That's what I've read in the Amensty Intl association yearly report of 2005. They mention Tasers being used "too generously" by military/law enforcement personnel.
About its effects they only mention that since 2001, over 70 cases of death after being shot by Tasers have been reported, but linked to use of drugs etc... by coroners. Only 5 cases have been directly linked to its use.

Another element: it seemed the death cases also occured with over-agressivity from police officers like subjects being mazed after being already subjected or hogtied.

So I think it's more linked to police officers' behaviour, but honestly I think I'd be among these "bad" cops highlighted on TV. It can be very frustrating to see criminals on the streets the whole day getting away with small sanctions (compared to their crimes) etc...
But this is getting-off topic!

[KIT]

Consider the source. Of course Taser's reports will be glowing, but Amnesty Intl is hardly the place I would go for factual information regarding police use of force. Why is it that after thousands of applications on officers, even a few of the cops aren't dying? Other factors must surely be involved.

Doesn't mean it isn't an issue, it does mean it isn't as bad as its made out to be.

What you'll never see from Amnesty Intl is an accounting of how many lives were saved because they were Tased and not shot.

[KIT]

SNIP double post

[Nin]

Consider the source. Of course Taser's reports will be glowing, but Amnesty Intl is hardly the place I would go for factual information regarding police use of force. Why is it that after thousands of applications on officers, even a few of the cops aren't dying? Other factors must surely be involved.

Doesn't mean it isn't an issue, it does mean it isn't as bad as its made out to be.

What you'll never see from Amnesty Intl is an accounting of how many lives were saved because they were Tased and not shot.


I totally agree with you, police/firemen/paramedic etc... aren't often on the spotlights even tho their job is the harder one. But I'm sure Taser's aren't 100% "risk free" tools.
For a simple reason: even using a tonfa has risks. Depending on the use of the "tool". Every tool has its side effects.

But as I said about reports, police/Taser company would under-estimate the effects, as human rights organisation would OVER-estimate them.

Another question to law enforcement guys: what's your secret to be that patient with those you deal with daily?!