Reflections on Rank, what does it mean to you?

[KenpoKev]

This is a continuation of sorts from the Ranking Kids thread. I noted the discussion had drifted to a discussion about what the attainment of rank means. I saw a number of excellent posts concerning what the Black Belt, was, is, should be, isn't, etc.

Christina brought up a really good point, that is that after we attain the black belt, we often "discount it" as not being that important, or simply a beginning point. She also pointed out very accurately, that when we were Kyu ranks, it sure was important to us then!

So, I would like to read your reflections about training, and in particular when you were preparing for your first Black Belt test. Also, and very importantly, how did you feel those few days after successfully passing the test? Further, what factors made you begin to "discount" the rank, in particular when asked by junior students?

Just as an FYI, I came out of a very old-school dojo, wherein the head instructor wouldn't promote you to black unless he felt you could adequately teach the entire system (to that rank) as well as displaying the maturity, skills, fighting ability and modesty associated with the rank (in his opinion). It took me 10 years to earn my black rank, too long in my opinion, but I perservered on through the drudgery of brown belt (4 years & 3 levels).

I recall very fondly, my black belt test. I had endured 3 "evaluations" over the 6 months prior to the test, under the eye of several instructors in addition to the sensei. The day before my test, the senior black belt quietly explained to me that I wouldn't be tested unless I had already passed muster in my evaluations (usually gruelling 3-4 hour sessions). He told me to savor the experience, enjoy the moment, as it likely would be one of my life's "high points". He was absolutely correct. The test was fairly short, compared to the evaluations. I was relaxed for the most part and made very few errors. After an hour and a half test (and the obligatory long chat among testing instructors in the office), the three testing instructors returned and presented me with my black belt. That was one of the happiest moments of my life, without question.

Over the next few days, I enjoyed a quiet sense of elation and explained to my fellow work associates and freinds about the experience. (they knew it was a big deal too).

Within the year, my company relocated and I no longer trained at the same school. As I ventured into new school settings, it became quite obvious that the standards for black were not the same as my experiences. (not being swell-headed here) Shortly after moving here I began teaching a black belt only class at a local dojo...with the senior instructor joining class quite often (different style). I think it was about this time that I started to "discount" the black rank. I realized that "black belt" didn't reflect a level of expertise I had formally observed in my original school. I also noted the the general public assumed if you had a black belt, you could really kick some butt, also a serious falacy.

Over the last 3 years, I have run a "scratch program", one started without any senior students (save one) to assist in instruction. It has been a tremendous learning experience, which is both very frustrating and rewarding at the same time. I have discussed ranking requirements with my instructors and mentors and determined that a curicculum of about 5 years of training is required for the black rank. All candidates will test before a board of my peers, who will vote on their performace and rank. I use belts and stripes as motivators for my students, but the senior one's are learning that while the goal of black belt is great, they must cultivate a desire to continue on in the training, learning and teaching experience. I have told my senior students, that I prefer NOT to teach them, if they don't expect to continue teaching, learning and developing. I find it very sad and terribly disappointing for an instructor to bring a student along to black rank, only to have them quit shortly after. To a degree, some of the fault lies with the instructor, for not cultivating a desire to continue on, but certainly the primary responsibility is with the student.

My belt is adorned with some Kanji that reflect the qualities to which I strive. No rank stripes, nor does my "seminar bio" include rankings. I honor my teachers and list the years of training with each, rather than list a particular rank attained. I do this not to project a false modesty, but to simply avoid the "ranking ladder" discussions.

OK, I've been way too long-winded, please forgive me. I tend to get reflective this time of year. Please share your experiences, thoughts, opinions on this subject.

Respectfully Yours,
Kevin

[Crusader Rabbit]

Good points, Kevin. However, I would question whether the belt or rank earned is really worth the time invested or the image as perceived in your own mind. I certainly am proud of earning my own ranks through the Kodokan. On the other hand, I was initially quite disappointed to see equivalent judo ranks presented with much less effort or ability on the student's part here in the U.S. I also thought this was somehow not right, that there was a lowering of the standards, etc.

After awhile, though, I realized that the belt or the rank only meant something to the specific individual who earns it. I was trying to see rank as a standard by which we could evaluate others and find our own standing. Martial arts ranks are not like military ranks, though, and should not be considered as such.

I know what it took to earn my shodan and nidan license. In that case, I am the only one who really cares. If someone earns their black belt in judo or any other style, what does it matter to me whether they were held to the same standard? Does it change anything about me if they got their black belt in six months instead of six years? Not really.

That's when I also realized that all the discussion about black belts for children was just a waste of time. Those who seem most upset about it are not going to change their own standards and those who promote the idea are not going to stop.

If someone is promoted to 10th dan in their own style by either themselves or someone else, does their 10th dan rank mean anything to them like my own shodan does to me? Not really. I seriously doubt they feel the same pride or sense of personal accomplishment in such an comparatively empty honor. In fact, they must not, since they seem to constantly inflate the credentials in a futile effort to compensate for this.

Once you realize that the rank is only meaningful to you as an individual, you can see that the rest of the debate about rankings and requirements is pretty much meaningless. If you feel satisfied with what you have achieved, then why bother worrying about what others claim?

I have a 2nd dan license in Kodokan judo. At 48 years old, it's probably the highest rank I will ever hold in any martial art. I wouldn't trade it or what I went through to earn it for any 15th dan or soke title in the world. These can not be compared since the standard is only what is recognized and valued by the person who achieves it.

[Sgathak]

My ultimate goal is to one day teach... what that is, I dont know... Martial arts? Yoga? Wilderness Survival? Not sure. But I do know that I would like to teach... The subject being less important than the ultimate passing on of knowledge.

When I do things, it is with the goal of one day being able to show others how to do it... Of course thier are other goals. Self improvment, Self esteem, Self Defense... But I guess to me, the "self" stuff doesnt really matter quite so much as "others".

Personally, I dont give a rats ass about rank. If I need X rank to teach... I will earn that rank and more. If I need Y time training to be considered versed enough to teach, I will spend Y time training... and add on a few hours.

Of course I do things for myself... Im just as selfish as the next guy in alot of cases... but when I look myself in the mirror I know that one of the reasons Im here on this earth is to (overcome and persevere over my pitfalls and foibles so that one day I can) share with others what I have learned.

Im not sure what you would call that... or even if that is what your looking for but thats my offering for this discussion

[Mandeigh Wells]

Rank? Thats an interesting question. In taijiquan we have a lifetime study but no belt system (certainly not in my neck of the woods....other posters may have developed one). You just aim to constantly refine your practice, eventually reaching a level that will enable you to teach, but with no guidlines (meaning markers such as ranks) along the way. I went to a TSD class and you knew exactly who was who and what part of the syllabus they were on based on the colour they are wearing. But taijiquan is taught a bit differently, in TSD they had 3 forms and a number of hand/foot and self defence techniques for the next level, in taijiquqn you can spend years working on one form.....all the techniques are in the form, but except for practicing applications and push hands, the main improvements are done through working on refining the form. It can leave you sometimes wondering just where you are in the grand scheme of things. There are 5 levels of training, so I guess its just a case of continuing development and a good teacher to keep you on the right track. I am not sure how a grading system would work for Taijiquan, if that meant it would be based largely on the external aspects of the form, simply what it looks like.

[Crusader Rabbit]

I thought a lot about this thread during the past 24 hours. Have you ever noticed that the ones most concerned about martial arts ranks are also the ones with the most external trappings?

If you consider the obi, the basic purpose is to keep the training jacket closed. As some aikido and jujutsu styles have incorporated wearing the hakama, the belt is no longer required for its essential purpose, but the practitioners still often wear their belt over the hakama to display their rank.

Some explain the necessity to provide a visual clue to the individual's rank so others may be aware of their skill or lack of skill during training sessions. Yet, you never see kendo practitioners wearing any kind of rank insignia or external obi to show their status.

Iaido practitioners still wear an obi with the hakama, but it's a lot wider and is worn under the hakama. The purpose is to secure the sword saya or scabbard to their waist. Since the color is not significant, the choice is usually up to the individual's preference.

When you walk into a kendo or iaido dojo, it doesn't take 30 seconds to identify the instructor, the senior students, and the novices. The precision of their movements and their ability level is readily observed by even those who have little or no familiarity with the respective art.

I think those who expect to be given a degree of respect for whatever martial art rank they hold are often quite disappointed. Look at how many have added huge colorful patches, fancy titles, and invented new belt color patterns to show off their rank. Some of them have even adopted academic titles such as professor or doctor or paid for meaningless honors like halls of fame. Although this kind of external trapping certainly gains attention, it doesn't imply immediate respect. Otherwise, we would all be saluting the city doormen who wear the militaristic looking uniforms with all the gold trim and stuff.

There is a great photograph of one of the all-time champions in exploiting the martial arts for external accessories. You might like to see it at Juko-Kai International (http://www.jukokai.com/). This guy has two organization patches the size of dinner plates on his uniform. He's wearing a red belt with a gold stripe, although lately he's been spotted wearing a black belt with two gold stripes. He has every title he could invent and will even award a title to you if you pay for it. Yet, he gets really upset when others refuse to recognize his achievements and defer to him.

I admit that these devices do garner attention and may even fool some who have nothing else on which to base their judgment. Yet, people like this are missing the point when they rely on this kind of nonsense to determine their own self-worth. It's just compensating for not having earned something they can really be proud of themselves. You can not buy respect from others.

If you worked hard for your martial arts rank, then it's obviously going to mean a lot to you personally, but it still doesn't mean anything special to others. You have to earn that kind of respect through your actions and your everyday behavior, not by wearing a certain colored belt or having another hall of fame plaque on the wall.

[Aaron Fields]

I'm in Don's boat on this one. Rank is important for.........well I guess I'm not really sure. My obi keeps my uwagi closed, that is about it.

[SCKumite]

I think what Kevin might be trying to find out or maybe state is some of the things I'm curious about myself.

Like:
Remember how you felt when you were a KYU rank? Try remembering from the beginning. Did becoming a BB mean anything then? How about now? How hard was it? Would you have quit if someone told you that ranks and becoming a BB means nothing when you first started Martial Arts? Would you have tried as hard to become a BB?
Now that some are Blackbelts and have been for a number of years, that the importance of you becoming one has changed.
How has it changed? Some don't care so much anymore. Some of you have forgotten how you became BB's. Some has forgotten how you felt when you took your first BB test. Did it help to change your life? Was it an event that you can always cherish? Are you glad you stuck it out and became a BB? Don't you feel good about it anymore?

I've noticed that only a BB and above(?) will say that being a BB don't mean nothing or it " Is only something to hold your uniform closed." I would love to have a dollar for everytime I've heard that one. But, the ones that are saying these things, I wonder what color their belt is that they wear in front of their class? Try wearing a rope and tell your students your BB means nothing and neither does theirs and see what starts to happen................

Now that some of you have your BB's and are instructors, do you wear your BB to class? If it means nothing to you why do you wear it? Do you teach your beginner students that becoming a BB means nothing? Do you really walk up to all your students and their parents and friends and tell them that a BB is no big deal and rank means nothing either? Were you taught that becoming a BB means nothing and it only holds your uniform together?
If these small things as being a BB doesn't mean that much anymore then I would guess that graduating high school or getting a degree in college means little either? I guess being married for 25 or 50 years to the same person really don't mean allot ?
I thing that becoming a BB is as important as all the other things I mentioned above. Sure the belt is only a color by itself, but only without a person the cares about Martial Arts. A belt is nothing if you don't care about learning the Arts. If you are training and learning about Martial Arts then why not be proud of your accomplishments.

A high school diploma or college degree took years to attain. Some Martial Artist took many years to get a BB. A high school diploma is a step into the future and so is becoming a BB. Sure it's all changing everyday. People take becoming a BB differently than some others. Some we all feel don't deserve it. I know that some people can buy their belts and diplomas, but that is them. Be proud of what you have been through.

If you are proud of what you have learned and are still learning, and proud of what you can teach. Your students will be proud of what they are learning from you as well. Sure there is much more than becoming a BB and more to it than ranking.But, it is still a part of it all.
I know that there is more to being a Martial Artist than being a BB and I know how many of you feel about the ranking that you are going to say means nothing. But if I would have listened to all that I when I was a 10th KYU I would not still have been in the Arts for 8 years either. I also know that I am not in MA for all the wrong reasons that some may feel to tell me. We are each here for ourselves. I train everyday, do you?
Remember don't take it personally. :)

By the way Don,
I am a member of the USAKF Hall of Fame, The first Junior to ever be inducted. and "DARN PROUD of IT" I got there by caring and giving back to the Arts and not for winning tournaments and my fighting ability. As Hanshi George Anderson also says, " You can't buy your way into this Hall of Fame."
( Besides I'm always broke from shopping)

[Ishinguy]

Good on you Christina, you represent the views of many I am sure, so thank you and I say "Well said"
Nick B

[Aaron Fields]

The real question is why do people after "black belt" feel that way? Could it be not that the person in question has attained the "carrot," or could it be that once you have achieved the rank you realize what it really means? (How many of us after shodan felt a let down?) In other words is it hindsight, false modesty, or bravado that leads us to say the piece of cotton is inconsequential.

Secondly, what is a black belt? They mean nothing outside of the confines of ones own realm, as criteria vary between schools.
For example, at least in my area, (proving my point in itself) you do not see yudansha in judo that are children, no matter how long they have been practicing. Whereas there are plenty of "tiny tigers black belts" from the local Take My Doe schools. What does the respective grades mean to each other, (or really mean at all)?

In my tradition, the "blackbelt" was added about 30 years ago, as the traditional grading was not as widely recognized. IE, our "black belt" is also menkyo kaiden. Yet, many of us wear white belts as much as we don't. Again our "black belt" comes after 8-12 years of regular practice and the ability to apply technique in a randori setting effectively.

I also practice judo, in that realm as it is widely recognized, I wear a "black belt," being that is what is appropriate.

Finally "rope around the waist" or not, I believe we are all in agreement that the experience and time put in practicing is what is really worthwhile. Regardless of how each of us chooses to dress ourselves we are all pursuing roughly the same thing.

[KenpoKev]

Christina wrote:

If these small things as being a BB doesn't mean that much anymore then I would guess that graduating high school or getting a degree in college means little either? I guess being married for 25 or 50 years to the same person really don't mean allot ?

Trust me, comparing completing High School or College, pales in comparison to remaining married for 25+ years :D While I love my wife dearly after 17 years of marraige, getting my BS at San Jose State was a piece of cake by comparison of marriage and raising kids!

Quite frankly, Christina, from my perspective, graduating High School is rather meaningless, it is a minimum expectation for the general public. Graduating college (a 4-yr degree, not an AA) is the minimum expectation in my family. As an employer, I assure you that the degree really proves nothing (just like the black belt) only that you stuck with the program and got the diploma (or belt). Now comes the time to prove whether you can do something with it.

(I'm not referring to you personally, because after reading your thoughts for a year now, I have little doubt that you will graduate from college and enjoy a successful career, as you display intellect, maturity and tenacity, the latter two being of greatest importance in life's trials)

I think Aaron pointed out several good insights, in particular the hindsight perspective. Often times when we reach a goal, after some time elapses, we tend to minimize the accomplishment, as we are likely pursuing a new one. Mountain climbers immediately come to mind.

However, as instructors, we must guard our words so as not to discourage our students, as they press forward to their (and our) goals for them. At the same time, I think we need to impress upon our students what qualities a black belt should possess, rather than just the physical abilities.

Respectfully,
Kevin

[SCKumite]

Thanks guys,

Aaron wrote:

Finally "rope around the waist" or not, I believe we are all in agreement that the experience and time put in practicing is what is really worthwhile. Regardless of how each of us chooses to dress ourselves we are all pursuing roughly the same thing. I agree. But the point I was trying to make is ........... That if wearing a BB really means nothing then why still be in MA or teach class or even go to class Why wear a BB in front of other people at all. (NOTE...This are not questions directed to you personally, okay Aaron). The level of experience that you are talking about is usually called a BB level (or better) by most systems. Which as tradition goes also in most sysytems the BB is just a way of showing that level. The "cotton" is the way of showing others that you are at a more advanced stage in the system. It all goes hand in hand.
Kevin wrote:

Quite frankly, Christina, from my perspective, graduating High School is rather meaningless, it is a minimum expectation for the general public. Graduating college (a 4-yr degree, not an AA) is the minimum expectation in my family. As an employer, I assure you that the degree really proves nothing (just like the black belt) only that you stuck with the program and got the diploma (or belt). Now comes the time to prove whether you can do something with it.
Well I can't wait to graduate and receive my diploma. Then on to college. :) I wonder if anyone else felt that way when they were growing up? I didn't know that an education was or is meaningless. As an employer, which would you hire, the college grad or the drop out? As an instructor, who would you want to teach, someone that has the ability to stay with it or the one that jumps from school to school. The point I was trying to make here was that it is the time that it takes, and that you have to stay with it to achieve it. I agree that once you get to that level is the time you need to really be learning an advanced level of MA education. Also, to the futher point of high school and college being a low level of expectation.
I think when we are on the road to it, that it is something more of becoming a graduate than after getting there as well.

I think that Aaron seems to say nearly the same thing as you have.
Aaron said:
The real question is why do people after "black belt" feel that way? Could it be not that the person in question has attained the "carrot," or could it be that once you have achieved the rank you realize what it really means? (How many of us after shodan felt a let down?) In other words is it hindsight, false modesty, or bravado that leads us to say the piece of cotton is inconsequential.

That seems pretty much what you have said too. As to a Mountain Climber, I would say," that was hard but fun, Let's see if we can climb that big one next." While I do not disagree with that I don't really agree with it altogether as of yet.
I don't feel that now I am at the BB level that my learning has come to a stand still like others have.

Where I may only be a BB in my previous system and not in others makes me want to learn and train even more to become better in other systems as well. Not by saying that "Now i'm a BB I can stop learning. Point in taking is I am now studying JKA style Shotokan Karate-Do. Later maybe TKD, Hapkido, Wansu, who knows right now.

Kevin said:

However, as instructors, we must guard our words so as not to discourage our students, as they press forward to their (and our) goals for them. At the same time, I think we need to impress upon our students what qualities a black belt should possess, rather than just the physical abilities.

That is a big part of what I am saying as well. We thought more about becoming a BB when we were at KYU level. If we didn't, I think someone was telling a big fib somewhere. As I said before I have only been in MA a short time of 8 years compared to most of you. I just hope that I don't do the same as others ( not necessaryly talking about you Kevin, Don, or Aaron but many others.) have and seem to not care or remember how I got to what ever level I become. No matter what system, style, school, we have to have an order of achievement, or level of attainment to be able to teach others. It just seems that some Martial Artists are let down or form a less than positive attitude after becoming a BB. I feel fortunate that it has not happened to me.

[Sgathak]

I do not have a black belt in any style... I do not care about rank.

[bujinclergy]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Crusader Rabbit

He's wearing a red belt with a gold stripe, although lately he's been spotted wearing a black belt with two gold stripes.

Did it look like this?
Taika Oyata Sensei (http://www.ryushu.com/taika.jpg)

[Crusader Rabbit]

I met Oyata sensei several years ago when he came to the karate school where our judo club shared space. At that time, he wore a simple black obi if I recall correctly. It certainly wasn't that bizarre shiny gold one. As for Rod's gold striped obi, it was much wider. (I guess because he's a real soke. :rolleyes: )

I didn't mean to imply that all "hall of fame" awards are worthless, but we do see a lot that are recognition for a fee rather than any sort of real honor for any achievement. I can't count how many I've been offered by people who don't know me or have any idea what I do (or don't do).

If there is a feeling of disappointment on the part of those who achieve yudansha ranks, it's often because they realize they are not going to automatically receive recognition and credability from others just because of their new status. I felt this as well when I first got my shodan in judo. Yet, there should be a realization later that the real "value" of such an achievement is a personal issue. I think those who add a bunch of patches and flashy attention getting devices are partly trying to compensate for a lack of perceived value.

I am very proud of my Master of Science degree, especially since I dropped out in the 11th grade and never graduated from high school. I managed to return to college on the G.I. Bill and earned both undergraduate and graduate degrees with honors. Yet, I don't "wear" my diplomas on my waist or as jacket patches. Look at those who didn't earn their degrees, but bought them from diploma mills. They are the ones most likely to add doctor titles to their business cards or to insist their students refer to them with such nonsensical academic references as professor or doctor.

By the way, I do wear a black belt in my judo classes. I often trade it with other lower-ranked students. With them wearing my black belt and me wearing their yellow, green, or brown belt, I then invite them to randori. My point is to show them that the belt color doesn't make any difference to how you perform.

In iaido class, where I am a novice, I wear a white obi. My instructor wears a really nice blue silk obi. Other students wear whatever color they want or happen to have on hand. Since it is under the hakama, it really doesn't matter what color it is, but how well it holds the saya and whether it is long enough to wrap three times around our expanding waistlines. (My own obi seems to be shrinking in this regard, so I may have to get a longer black one... :D )

[SCKumite]

bujinclergy wrote:
Did it look like this? Taika Oyata Sensei
WOW ! :)


Don said:
I didn't mean to imply that all "hall of fame" awards are worthless, but we do see a lot that are recognition for a fee rather than any sort of real honor for any achievement. I can't count how many I've been offered by people who don't know me or have any idea what I do (or don't do).
I understand . I have read the posts on the other threads about HOF. I just wanted to state for the record that the USAKF HOF was not one of those.(It was established in 1976)
Dn said:
I am very proud of my Master of Science degree, especially since I dropped out in the 11th grade and never graduated from high school. I managed to return to college on the G.I. Bill and earned both undergraduate and graduate degrees with honors. Yet, I don't "wear" my diplomas on my waist or as jacket patches.
I know that most of our achievements in life are personal or family related. I understand that most others are not concerned about how we did as in becoming a BB or getting a degree.
I see and read about the "SCAM ARTIST" everyday, I just don't let "them" interfere wwith the way I feel about what I do in Life. I am learning that personal feelings about how you feel about yourself can go a long ways in teaching a class in Martial Arts. I have always been taught to take pride in what I do and use it wisely.
I just can't understand why people that spent years in training to get to the BB level can get so negative about being one. It's not about the Color of the belt, I know that that is just a show of personal achievement . I to, when starting in Shotokan class wore nothing of rank and started all over again. Even though I was more quickly to pick up the training than a fresh person new to MA, I advanced only one belt at a time. Mainly because this is the way I want to do it.

I would love to take iaido classes someday myself.

[Jim]

It's been a long time since anyone posted on this topic but I think it's very relevant so I'd like to start the debate again.

Not so much on 'rank' but more so on attaining the Black Belt. I personally didn't join for the BB but after the first few years it became my goal. I think that many others who have not gained it very definately strive for it and it's becoming more the 'norm' to gain Sho Dan rank then leave and study another art.

In our system, as in many/all others, the obtaining of the Sho Dan grade is the beginning of the 'higher learning' and a sign that the wearer has mastered the basics of the system and can be relied upon to open their own class, etc.

So the question I'd like to pose is what does the BB mean to you?

[Jen]

I am a color belt, and I too feel that black belt is only what it means to you. I started training in 1996, and after the new year, the people running the program just up and left. I didn't take my first test until April 1997. This was 8 months after I started. Then in August of 1998, the new instructor also decided to leave. Yeah, I could have went out to one of his other locations, but I wasn't given any information about them. When I talked to someone from the school on instant message and I said who I was, they spent almost a year begging me to come back. I was to be eligible for a black belt in about a year. Needless to say, I went on to another place where many of my friends went to. Last April I was eligible for a black belt, however our head instructor had gotten married and disappeared. The dojang was sold and I was expected to learn an entirely new set of patterns in a month. I was told that if I came in every day and I stayed late and came in early, I could definetly do it. Well, I am willing to come in early and stay late, no problems there. However, I realized then that what he was doing was trying to get himself some more black belts in the dojang to look good since many were leaving. Sorry, but one month to earn a black belt sounds wrong to me. I walked out the door and never returned. I then joined my current dojang. Here, I was given a few months to train and learn, and then I was tested to the level I had learned up to. I feel that this was a much more fair method of doing things. I wasn't given a white belt as obviously I was way above that level, nor was I put right next to the black belt candidates who had been there a few years. So, next year when I can test, it will be about 7 years from the first day I started in anything. I've heard rumor that new black belts have to run through a line of all the other black belts and get hit with belts, going one time for each year in training. Yeah, i'll probably still be running with the 2nd and 3rd dans, but I will know that I put in many years of hard work to get the run through there. I don't plan to quit after either, even though I will be going to college in 2 years, one of my considerations right now is will there be a place to continue my training. If I really want a quick black belt, I could go out tomorrow and have one embroidered, and print up my own certificate. However, I would always know in my heart that I didn't earn that.

Wow, sorry I wrote a book.

[Aegis]

In the words of some guy who's name I can't remember ;) :

"Attaining a Dan grade is either the end of the beginning or the beginning of the end"

A great line, and so true. Those who believe that a black belt is everything stop giving a damn once achieving shodan, and even if they continue they don't give their all to training any more.

Those who care about their art more than the colour of their belt realise that the shodan grade merely indicates that basic training is over, and now the learning of finesse begins.

[Jeannette]

I feel that each school and each dojo in a school determines how thay are going to rank and if/how they will have tests and curriculum. If you need to test as a way to see where you are at and if it offers you as a guide to push you forward, then go for it! It is probably a good way for your teacher to have this kind of "structure" as a way of communication and learning. If you decide it is how you want to train, then wear it with honor.

The most important thing is dedicated training. I feel that I will be training for the rest of my life until I die. It never stops. In my art, the dans don't stop....
YOU KEEP GOING.

The students that think that once they hold a certain rank and decide not to train anymore because they think they know it all, will fail and become outdated in that art. Since the art is always evolving and changing with times, it is important to always keep training.

Training is like nature. It is always evolving and changing.

Teachers that don't continue to train with their teachers or grandmasters and think they know all there is to know about their art will die. Because that overconfidence is a true weakness and will kill him or her.

On testing and ranking:
The true test is out there on the battlefield. It won't matter what the color of your belt or how many brownie points you've collected!

I have a story:
Years ago, I once trained with a guy that, I felt, didn't deserve a black belt. ( In fact, he really sucked! ) He was kind of a geek and a bit clumsy. My sense at the time was really hard on the rest of us and made us "earn" our ranks. So, I was confused at why this guy got his belt. He put him ahead of all of us when bowing in, and this really bothered me! About a month later I started noticing all these changes in him. He actually started getting better and I noticed an inner calmness in him. His walk was more confident and his techniques seemed to flow real nice and he followed through hard! For whatever reason, my sense must have felt this way of ranking was what the guy needed to fill in the holes. This was also a lesson learned for the rest of us in class. Have faith in your teacher!

[tbmonti]

Dear Kevin,
First of all I Kind of skimmed everyones replies so if I repeat what someone else said or say something that has already been touched on I am sorry. I guess that I agree with what has been said about the black belt being what it means to you. With concerns to the question, why do only people who have acheived this level "discount it". Well I hope no one is really discounting. I do beleive that black belt is a right of passage that not every one can acheive and that is why some of those of us who have acheived it may call it unimportant. I mean not to show any disrespect to my rank or any one elses but who hasn't seen a lower rank beat a higher rank in a sparring session. I think that that is where most of those type of staements come from. I however, enjoyed hearing about your black belt testing, because I came from a very old school, school as well and it brought back some very good memories. My black belt test however, was not done in several sessions like yours. I had to do it all in one day(8hours long), and like your test mine was grueling but one of the best days of my life. I wouldn't trade that experience for any thing in the world and I would not have wanted it to be any easier. After all it is not those of us who actually earned our ranks who should be second guessing ourselves, its those who have a 30 min black belt test after 2 years of training once a week whos ranks are nothing but a belt and a certificate with no really meaning. OH YA I have just one more thing to add, and that is that black belt while posibly the most important acheivement in most martial artists lives, is still just one of many accomplishments in a life time of training.


The angry man will defeat himself in battle as well as in life.

Anthony B. Monti

[tkdcanada]

Hi,

I just thought I'd put my two cents in too. I agree that the significance of achieving black belt status is purely individual but I also see it as an important indicator of the level of personal achievement that a person has attained, not only in the art but in life. Becoming a black belt takes years of perserverance and training and that's something that deserves to be recognized. The person who manages to stick with it and actually achieve this goal earns the right to wear his rank and should be proud. I am a blue belt going to red stripe next month and every time I earn a new belt I see it as not only an advancement in rank but a new level of personal growth that I have achieved Moving up in ranks brings me deeper and deeper into all of the aspects of my art giving me more physical and mental strength, an amazing sense of peace and calmness and a belief in myself like I never had before. When I look back at when I started, I am amazed at what my training has done for my personal development and I wouldn't trade it for the world. Finally, when I finally achieve black belt status, why on earth would I want to quit something that has given me so much over the years? It would be a crying shame. Having just finished university at 32 (I went back at 28) I equate it to getting a university degree. You put in years of effort and also spend lots of money to get it - Of course it means something! It's an amazing accomplishment and it shouldn't be discounted as anything less. For me it'll be just the beginning!

Michleine Cloutier

[KenpoKev]

Glad to see this thread continuing and thank you all for your thoughtful replies.

The "scratch program" I mentioned in the initial dialog is now starting it's 5th year and I have a group of about 8 folks on the verge of testing for their brown belts. They have been developing their teaching skills and personal skills at a good pace this year.

I've also noted this last year that my black belt is getting a tad frayed (and not by dragging it behind a car :) ) I really like the symbolism of the white inner material. My belt is about 8 years old now, sadly the belt given to me by my original instructor was stolen with my gear bag a couple years after I was awarded it. After 8 years, the white is coming through. The white lining gives me an opportunity to share an important lesson with my students, that even when you attain the black belt, deep inside you are still a white belt, with the need to learn more. Education must never cease or one will decay. (A life principle to me)

I realized long ago that I didn't know jack about the martial arts after attending several master's seminars (San Jose Gasshuku) and saw the amazing variety and depth of other styles. I continue to attend events like this to enhanse my education, including getting thumped at Aaron's dojo by one of the best in the world, John Bluming.

Go in peace my friends.

Kevin

[Mariedke]

that even when you attain the black belt, deep inside you are still a white belt

This is something I've realized in preparing for my Shodan (actually, the more I've progressed, the more I've realized I have so much more to learn).

Thank you for putting it so simply and eloquently :bow:

[chrtorres]

I have to say firstly - all of you have just taken me back to when I wanted to study martial arts

I was just a kid (like most of us) - imagined being the next Bruce Lee ( yeah right - me a punk kid with thick glasses from Brooklyn New York - HA).

When I first started training in the Arts, I was 12 years old at a community center of a co-worker of my mother - Shotokan Karate- it looked great, so many kids - kicking and punching - I remember my first day - doing knuckle pushups - sobbing Hysterically looking at my parents to do something - they just left me there -

That my Dojo Freinds is a stitch in time - I would never want to replace - I'm now 33 years of age and a 2nd BB in Aiki-jiujitsu - I honetly don't care for my 2nd dan grading - it's the Shodan that means so much to me personally - the time that I put in - the injuries that had me out - the blood, sweat and tears- all of the pain - all of my new family/friends - meeting my financee - I still have some scars on my Knuckles that shine on my hands for me - my tattoo of the kanji "budo" - Teaching total strangers how to trust one another for a common goal - Changing people lives - like the art has changed me - it has made all of us who we are

These feelings are from my Heart - they are MY life accomplishments -

I've joined other forums before - but its seems this one is of very genuine members.

Thanks for having me.

[jmd161]

I think the importance of rank depends on the style and level you're at within that style or your overall training.

If you're new to martial arts? And they have a ranking system it can be a great feeling to move up the ladder in rank from your first white belt/sash to a black belt/sash.As you see different styles or the same style with ppl wearing the same color belt/sash that lack effort or skill it can Tarnish your image about what rank means.I've seen white belts in karate with better form in katas than black belts.I'm talking about watching them do the same exact kata.

Because someone has a black belt/sash does'nt mean they always earned it.There is so much politics and other crap in martial arts it's a shame.I've seen alot of "Honorary" black belts/sashs awarded to ppl.Some of those same ppl go and start teaching what they really don't know.

I don't want to offend anyone ,but i don't think a first dan in any martial art knows enough to be opening their own school! I think it's ok to teach at your Dojo/kwoon but not your own school.

If you're new to a martial art that has no ranking system and you come from a ranking system.It could leave you wondering where you fit in like Mandeigh said.If you've never been exposed to a ranking system i really don't think it matters too much to you about others rank.I mean everyone is impressed when they see a black belt/sash ,but after they see your skill in action.That could work for you or against you.In my style of Black Tiger everyone wears a black sash.It has no rank value it's the school's color of choice of sash chosen by my Sigung Grandmaster Wong Cheung in China.We know were we rank among each otherwithin the style.By training,sparring,and other things we do within the school.It's normal for someone new to the style to spar against a Si Hing.


jeff:)

[tkdcanada]

Just like chrtorres, I feel that since I have begun training in tkd, my life and myself has changed sooo much. It has brought me to who I am today and I wouldn't trade it for anything. I never thought that anything could have such an impact on my life, but it really has. I see my rank as a symbol of my accomplishment for me to recognize; my accomplishment in not only tkd but in so many areas of my life - a process which is neverending. I realize also that rank only means what it means to the individual which can be different for everyone. As was mentioned, some white belts have better technique than some black belts and so obviously, the rank isn't everything but rather what you put into it to get there. You get back what you put in.

[wab25]

I have been training for almost seven years now. I go to the dojo with the expectation to learn something new. Everytime I go, I learn something new. That is my only reason for training, to learn more about my art. When I started, I did not want rank. I wanted to be a white belt my whole life. My wise sensei found a way to explain to me that not everything is obvious. There is an extra step in the back roll that we practice in our system. This extra step does not affect the roll at all, but we learn it at white belt, without knowing why. Much later, like for nidan or sandan, that extra step, no longer becomes extra, as things are added to situation. That extra step, actually keeps you safe as you do the technique. There are many things in our system like this. Things that you think are silly when you learn them, become very important later. It is important to understand, when training martial arts, that you must trust your teacher. He knows where he is leading you. He is leading you, because you have not been there yet and can not get there without his guidance. Too many people learn a technique one way, then teach it a "new and better" way. They never realize that the technique they learned was really only a small part of the real technique, and by improving it they lost what it was that they were supposed to learn. The point of all this is that sometimes we don't need to understand something, to learn from it. At times in my training, my sensei gave me a new color belt. Some how, it helped me learn more about my art. At some point, my sensei may decide that giving me a black colored belt will help me to learn more. If he does then great, if he gives me a pink one, thats fine too. ( polka dots..... I'd have to think about that one ) For me, being promoted teaches me something. It teaches different things at different times, and sometimes I don't even notice that it is teaching me. I still feel like the newbie on the mat, and I hope I always do. My first sensei taught me to tie my obi after I took it off. That way it keeps in all that I learned, if it isn't tied all the learning will just run out the ends. Its kind of a silly thing and I doubt that it "works." But, my obi is tied.

[johenora]

Rank in Judo,Karate etc was first designed for competition along with weight classes and ages. In Judo males wore one type belt and women wore a center stripe on the belt.Some schools wore different color stripes on trousers.
Rank is a distinguishing characteristic like in an organization for certain purposes or to classify.
In a particular system it is used for scheduling ,teaching etc.
Each system have different variables for determing rank.
Some systems do not use rank. So, they use time in grade. E.G. #1 brother,sister etc etc,
Some systems use levels of teaching skills like Menkyo, Kaiden,Mokuroku, Shihan,Hanshi,UchiDeshi etc to distinguish staus and/or what has been learned or progress in the system.
Some systems give diplomas for what has been learned---like the 18 Hands Kata, Iron palm #1 or #2.This gives an idea as to what one has learned or was taught or examined on.
Most rank systems in Modern Japan after 1868 were based on the color codes as put together by Jigoro Kano. Prior to the repeal of the Shogunate Congress--there were various ways of distinguishing one's status,eg how the sword was worn,Mon,knot,dress etc.
Under the modern Gendai Judo system the lower levels were Mudansha and the upper levels were Yudansha.
In Dai Sumo the ranks were determined by matches won and one dressed and carried a bow according to his scores in matches etc.
Rank has it privileges and responsibilities in the system along with its burdens.
The belt usually shows the rank---but the clothing worn can do it also without the wearing of a belt--e.g. Hakama --white or black etc.in Koryu(Ancient--pror to 1868) or Gendai(after 1868) systems.

[johenora]

Rank in Judo,Karate etc was first designed for competition along with weight classes and ages. In Judo males wore one type belt and women wore a center stripe on the belt.Some schools wore different color stripes on trousers.
Rank is a distinguishing characteristic like in an organization for certain purposes or to classify.
In a particular system it is used for scheduling ,teaching etc.
Each system have different variables for determing rank.
Some systems do not use rank. So, they use time in grade. E.G. #1 brother,sister etc etc,
Some systems use levels of teaching skills like Menkyo, Kaiden,Mokuroku, Shihan,Hanshi,UchiDeshi etc to distinguish staus and/or what has been learned or progress in the system.
Some systems give diplomas for what has been learned---like the 18 Hands Kata, Iron palm #1 or #2.This gives an idea as to what one has learned or was taught or examined on.
Most rank systems in Modern Japan after 1868 were based on the color codes as put together by Jigoro Kano. Prior to the repeal of the Shogunate Congress--there were various ways of distinguishing one's status,eg how the sword was worn,Mon,knot,dress etc.
Under the modern Gendai Judo system the lower levels were Mudansha and the upper levels were Yudansha.
In Dai Sumo the ranks were determined by matches won and one dressed and carried a bow according to his scores in matches etc.
Rank has it privileges and responsibilities in the system along with its burdens.
The belt usually shows the rank---but the clothing worn can do it also without the wearing of a belt-or the belt can change with the colors of the seasons--Note please rank or status can be displayed by e.g.the Hakama --white or blackor stripped etc.in Koryu(Ancient--prior to 1868) or Gendai(after 1868) systems.

[jakmak52]

There's only two belts, white and black, everything in between is fluff ;)

[silent snake]

:bandit: Unlike most out there rank means nothing to me. What is rank? Rank is a position in a heirarchial group. I.E. rank denots authority, and last I checked every student regardless of rank followed the master. Not some half-assed drill private on an ego trip. I am not motivated by rank. I never had a teacher, so I had to resort to books and drive. Regardless, I am confident in my ability to rain holy hell on those who do something incredibly stupid. Like walking into my house at 0100 hours. No I do not have a shiny diplloma. What I do have is U.S. Army discipline, and the ability to read. I seek wisdom. Not trinkets. Which should be the motive for all worthwhile endevour. Have faith in yourself, and your own skill. It is irrelevent if every screwball in the outfield can see it pinned on your donkey. :bow:

[Gene Williams]

One might say that you have an authority problem, or that you are resistant to structure of any kind. Freud traced these problems back to toilet training, but, then psychoanalysis is another one of those structures and orthodoxies :) I hope you never decide to take up the practice of medicine.

[CEB]

.... I never had a teacher, so I had to resort to books and drive. ....
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
What was your MOS?
I bet the Army gave you teacher to go along with that US Army discipline when it came to learning whatever job you were expected to do for them.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[Mandeigh Wells]

can we keep it friendly please folks...........or take it to PM

[Webmaster]

can we keep it friendly please folks...........or take it to PM
Hey all, I think that Mr. Snake gets the point. No need to rub it in that the Marine recruiter wouldn't take him and he had to go join the Army. :D

Seriously, let's cool it. I do think he gets the point. Okay?

[CEB]

There was this green belt onetime that was all facinated with the black belt thing. So I took off my belt and gave it to him and he put it on. I asked him how it felt. He said it felt good. So I put on his green belt and kicked his ***. That was fun.

[Gene Williams]

That wasn't very nice...I'm offended...you're mean :cry:

[dao]

Gene,

Baiting moderators and the administrator? Perhaps Mr. Snake isn't the only person who has a problem with authority.

We, the staff, try hard to make this board a place where multiple perspectives can be expressed and explored - even those we feel are foolish or disagree with. Are we perfect or always fair? Probably not but, we do try. We don't get paid for this and, in fact, Robert pays the bills every month to keep this place running. That gives him the right to be mean if he wants to be. If any member doesn't like it they are free to leave.

I honestly do like most of the posts you've made. I think that your perspective is a good one and I really would like for you to stay. It is evident that you have alot of experience and knowledge and I respect that. You are also witty. I'm sure that I speak for all the staff when I say that I won't enjoy banning you but, if you continue to engage in personal attacks I will do it. Please don't paint us into a corner.

[Gene Williams]

I guess our defintions of personal attacks are different. But, to protect the fragile and to assuage wounded authority I will try to strew flowers. :bow:

[CEB]

I'll be waiting for my bouquet. :laugh: