View Full Version : Ive never considered the Spiritual Side of MA until now.
Its been a LONG time since I've even visited this place, alone posted !
I've not been involved in any MA for a long time about 4 years now, but various sequence of events in my recent life have brought me around in an almost full circle, to the point where I have started looking at MA again, but from a totally different perspective.
When I last practised MA, I was a regular, was more interested in the Fun and Fitness, the SD was an added benefit.
3 years ago to this month, I ask my girl friend to marry me. We got a house together, we spilt a year later. I got depressed, accumulated a debt. We got back together 6 months later, about 18 months ago. We set a date for the wedding for May just gone. Started regularly going to church (both catholic families, quite a few members regular church goers). I eventually told my Fiance about the debt. The Priest upset my fiance as he basically said that she should stay with her husband even if he abused her, this touched a nerve as she had been raped when she was at College (before I knew her).
We got married in May, had a great honey-moon in Scotland (decided against Florida as we wanted somewhere quiet). Sometime around then we decided to try for a baby.
When we got back, we decided that we wanted to be as debt free for the baby, so first plan was getting rid of the credit card bills from the wedding and a chunk of my debt, which was done by selling our sports bikes(yeah my wife is a biker chick :p)). We cut back on stuff like mobile phones, cable TV packages reducing our monthly outgoings, and in 12 months time this debt will be payed off and still have enough money to enjoy ourselves, as long as we are careful.
This happened about last month, and ever since I've been pondering about my life, where its going, especially with the recent change of marriage, money situation and wanting to start a family, even the fact I've lost faith in my religion, whats important in life, my life, what I actually put value and importance on.
One of the things I need is a new hobby and I thought about talking up Martial Arts again, especially as a few guys in my office have started Kung Fu.
So after a conversation with the other week at lunch, I hit google with a renewed interest in Martial Arts.
I ended up reading about Bushido and Shintoism (correct spelling ?) and I liked some of the ideas and ideals. This time around realised that I should be considering the spiritual side of Martial Arts, which last time had little interest to me. Now, I'm not saying I'm going to become a Kung-Fu-***-kickin-buddhist-monk (joke), but I thought I definitely would at-least like to read about the religious and spiritual side of martial arts.
So, if anyone has any info, stories, books or links they would like to share with me about the religious and spiritual side Martial Arts, I would genuinely be grateful.
jakmak52
08-18-2005, 08:08
I believe that there is no spiritual aspect, that martial arts is spiritual in it's own content. Here's a link that explained it well for me.
Martial Arts Spirituality (http://www.pastornet.net.au/response/articles/13.htm)
Aikido_Girl918
08-18-2005, 08:27
it all depends on you, if you enjoy the martial arts, and you learn to see it as a lifestyle, it will come, what i mean by lifestyle, practice a lot, remember the virtues, most dojangs have a set of virtues, follow them, practice often, have fun, and the spiritual side of martial arts will come to you, i cannot explain it, but it is like a connection, and it developes over time. for now, justhave fun in the martial arts and get to know your instructors.
Musubi Dojo
08-18-2005, 08:42
If you are looking for the spiritual satisfaction that comes from hard work and concentration, and pushing youself past previous stumbling blocks then MA's are about that.
If you are are looking for philosopical or religious enlightenment I think you'll be disapointed.
Most of the instructors I've met who claim to teach this sort of thing are cult leader wanna be's. You'll recognise them by their awestuck students who will tell you endless stories of their near supernatural powers.
I think church/temple/place to meditate is the best way to go....
I also think yoga does a good job of the mind/body/spirit thing depending on the instructor.
My 2 cents
Best of luck!!
c
for now, justhave fun in the martial arts and get to know your instructors.
Yes, fun is my primary goal for an MA (not even self defence), but I would like to read and understand more about the spiritual side of things.
Ta, Nick
I believe that there is no spiritual aspect, that martial arts is spiritual in it's own content. Here's a link that explained it well for me.
Martial Arts Spirituality (http://www.pastornet.net.au/response/articles/13.htm)
Kinda says you draw from your learnings of MA and apply to other aspects of life...
Ta for the link. Nick
If you are looking for the spiritual satisfaction that comes from hard work and concentration, and pushing youself past previous stumbling blocks then MA's are about that.
That's one thing I've always enjoyed about my work, the sports/activities I do.
If you are are looking for philosopical or religious enlightenment I think you'll be disapointed.
As I said Im not wanting to become a Kung-Fu-***-kickin-Buddhist-monk...
I just want to learn about it out of interest, more than put into practice at this moment in time, curiosity if you understand ?
I think church/temple/place to meditate is the best way to go....
Or whilst my wife is watching soap operas ;)
I also think yoga does a good job of the mind/body/spirit thing depending on the instructor.
My 2 cents
Best of luck!!
c
Yoga, not thought about that. cheers.
Ta. Nick
Aikido_Girl918
08-19-2005, 15:18
well, if you are wanting to learn about it out of interest, your not alone, i am wanting to know more about this but the only things i have ever found, other than the pages given to me by my dojo, are about people with superhuman powers, or about some stupid idea that being a martial artist makes you better than everyone else. i have no idea where to find that kind of info, but, i stand by what i said in my last post, it will come, i started to feel addicted and connected to the martial arts about 5 months after i started.
RickMatz
08-19-2005, 20:57
My martial arts practice is something that is close to Zen practice. It doesn't make me a better person or anything; just more of myself.
Nick,
It sounds like you are going through HUGE changes in your life right now. About the only major "stresser" you did not mention is "job change." As you are now laying the foundations of a new marriage and family, have you considered taking on an activity that both you and your wife are interested in?
Maintaining individual activities is important too, but you are specifically speaking of taking a mental, physical, spiritual journey. Not exactly the same language as 18 holes of golf with the boys. If you are to undergo such a journey, it might be nice if all parties involved are traveling the same route. ;)
Just a little word of advice from a 15 year happy veteran. :)
Thanks for all your comments.
Eliz, I spend all my freetime with my wife at the moment, this isnt as bad as its sounds though... she works saturdays, and she has mondays off instead, so I get a free day that way, plus we have a close group of mutual friends (thats how we met in first place), so when we go for beer, walking, days out or movies we ALWAYS invite our friends along, so though I spend almost all my spare time with her, we are also half the time with friends.
When I first met my wife I was training in Tae Kwon Do, she had no interest then, and I have mentioned it recently, and shes not the slightest bit interested in training in a Martial Art.
Chris, I like what you said.
I don't worry about conflict of religous beliefs anyhow, as I personally believe that we should be allowed to choose and reject any part of any religion/idea, live by our own set of ideals and goals, its one of the things that makes us individuals.
Also as life changes, we must be open to adjust in our ideals and goals so that they relflect one another, and this is the crossroad I am at. Its more an adjustment, realignment, than a throwing out and starting again.
I must say, that Im not upset, distressed, mentally ill even, just a bit confused and lacking in focus of where my life is going, as day to day I am very mellow and content (as I usually am).
From what I have read, though it can be useful to read/understand the spiritual side of different MA, it seems better that it is part of the phyiscal training, as a complete system ?
I am strongly considering Hapkido, as this will fit in with my background of TKD, which always suited my long legged-athletic build. I am also looking at Juijitsu.
Have a weeks holiday next week, so I have time to phone/visit local schools.
Nick
Religious issues are tough to deal with. Everyone has negative reactions about ~Anything~ religious. The market is saturated with people that feel that religion has faulted them. No body wants to touch the stuff. Why? Because it is scary as hell!
Unfortunately science and philosophy can't explain "why" we exist, let alone why we die. Our purpose on earth is mystery.
Spirituality in martial arts for me has always been about piercing reality. What I mean by this is seeing and being aware of what is really happening without being deluded by cultural/philosophic/societal/etc beliefs and perceptions. With a clear mind actions happen spontaneously.
Western civilization tends to think of the mind as separate from the body or the spirit. In Goju ryu karate the kata "Sanchin" or "three battles" could refer to these.
Unfortunately secularism is rampant in our media because we are consumer cash cows that willingly go out and buy products/services that are supposed to make us happy. As if anyone needs a reason to be happy, as if that is mankind's general goal...
Here is a good excercise for meditation and sampling the world of the abstract. It takes one day or about 8 hours of sunlight.
Go to a public place where there is a lot of traffic and people walking around. I use a coffee house because I like coffee. Sit outside. Don't read a paper, or book, or magazine. Don't bring a cellphone or a friend. Be utterly alone and anonymous. Sit and watch the people, the clouds go by, the cars go by, birds flying. Listen to people talk or order a drink. Scrutinize every detail. Spend an hour looking at a sewer grate if it has recently rained. Watch the leaves get clustered around the metal gridding. Be open and aware of everything that is taking place around you but Do Not Move. More importantly, do not attach any Value to what you see. Don't see a red car as RED, just see the car. Don't see a Maple tree as a Maple tree, it is just a tree. Remove the inventory of names for things you see. After awhile you may notice that your unconscious tries to name everything you see. ignore it. focus on the flower or the table or the rock sitting by the curb.
No special breathing technique. No mantra. Just reality without perception of it.
:D
Right To Defend
08-27-2005, 20:59
Martial Arts is not spiritual. It is a comabt art, the furthest thing from spirituality. However it is philisophical.
The best book that I have found is "Living The Martial Way" by Forest Morgan.
Chris is right.
All discipline is spiritual. Anything to do with life and death has its roots in spirit.
Jason T Gatts
08-28-2005, 12:45
I think that a person who believes in a "spiritual" dimension of reality no longer separates the physical from the spiritual. Whether it's the concept of dharma/karma of the eastern and nature faiths or the final judgement of the Judeo/Christian religions- the spiritually minded person must contemplate the purpose/and motivation for every action they take.
"the spiritually minded person must contemplate the purpose/and motivation for every action they take."
Jason, I totally agree... I tend to follow that group of thinking. One thing that really ticks me off in our global society is that so many people act like sheep, and coperate advertising and PR is big culprit.
Its also the reason I refuse to wear any clothing with a brand label on (apart from discreet).
Also another big culprit in the UK is the sensationalised news and media.
I take most things I read in the News or on the internet with a pinch of salt until I find out collabirtive or verifed information.
But I also think this really reduces peoples ability to question, justify and reason, because they are "told" the choices by the advertising/PR/News/Media.
As a hapkido-ist who values the aspects of the spiritual in my practise I am somewhat hesitant to say this but I think most hapkido and jujutsu practitioners tend to be more 'practical/technique' oriented and less spiritually oriented than those that practise other arts.
My own hapkido teacher definitely has a spiritual aspect integrated into his system so it really isn't good to generalize but generally speaking I think Japanese aikido, tai chi, iaido and the like seem to attract the more spiritually oriented than the two arts you mentioned, which seem to attract the more pragmatic and self defense oriented.
If the main focus of your desire to study an art is spiritual I think you should probably study an art which puts this aspect at the forefront rather than an art in which it plays an important but smaller role.
GodofGamblers
08-28-2005, 20:40
to live your life without fear. quite a challenge.
Right To Defend
08-29-2005, 17:48
A warrior is spiritual, war isn't.
Spirituality and war do not mix. War is chaos, spirituality is order.
Your training in Ma and the philosophical side, and in some cases the spiritual side, will prepare you for the chaos of combat and vilolence, but they do not mix.
Spirituality prevents us from causing harm and destruction. It creates a harmony. The opposite is true of combat. Combat, for reasons good,bad, honorably or cowardly cause us to hurt, maime & kill.
I understand that many warriors are spiritual, this does not mean that war is.
It is dangerous to confuse the two. If you look at them one and the same then you make the warrior accept the responsibility of war. You make them responsible for death and carnage, which in most cases is not the nature of the warrior. Most soldiers hate what they have to do, but accept a greater responsibility for the good of humankind and our nation(s). This does not make them killers, it makes them heros.
I agree that spirituality and warriors often go hand and hand, but the wtwo can NEVER be interchangable.
GodofGamblers
08-29-2005, 19:28
interesting post, steven, but i don't agree with every point.
"Spirituality and war do not mix. War is chaos, spirituality is order."
if you find peace, then you will be at peace, even at war.
martial arts is about controlling one's environment, at first. you learn at what range an attacker can hit you; then you learn to control that range. after you become proficient, you realize that the real element that has to be controlled is not your environment, but yourself. only once you control yourself, control your fear, do you have true control.
this is the true challenge of the MA. simply punching and kicking is for neophytes.
Right To Defend
09-04-2005, 07:41
You cannot find peace at war. They are opposites. What you can find is peace after ther war or confrontation in knowing that you fight with dignity or honor.
Being at peace does not mean you will be at peace every second of your life. Just as being happy doesn't mean that you are always happy.
Happy people will experience sadness and anger, just as peaceful people will experience anger and rage.
It is when we can look back over the situation and determine that we did what was right, and we did it to the BEST of our ability that we are at peace with ourselves.
I understand what you are saying about controlling ourselves, and I agree self discipline and control are the cornerstones of a peaceful person, but there is no peace at war.
Our search for peace and our personal growth will allow us to phychologically and spiritually cope with the trauma of violence and war, but they are not the same, nor by their very definition ever be the same.
GodofGamblers
09-13-2005, 19:38
well said. i agree.
Bad Karma
09-14-2005, 02:26
Isn't this like comparing apples to oranges? This is why they don't jive, because you are comparing a "sense" of peace (harmony), which is intangible, to "an 'act' of war or 'in' war or 'at' war" action(s), which is tangible - right?
Peace
Being at peace does not mean you will be at peace every second of your life
Well, isnt this the goal? For inner peace regardless of external turmoil?
Your absolutly correct that war isnt spiritual, but warriors often are... but you seem to miss the reason of why. You hit on it, but I dont think you get it. The spirituality of the warrior is in response to the chaos of war. Its an answer to the question.
You say "happy people will still feel sad" then make the leap that you can simply look back and say "I did my best" and all is well. The problem is, you miss the breadth and depth of the sorrow - - To kill, to prepare to die, to watch others fall around you, you watch friends perish, to see the ground covered in blood, and green fields turn red and sticky underfoot.
Then, going home, seeing it replay in your head over and over again. The pain, the death, the horror... often times expeirienced because you were TOLD to (conscripts and retainers) not because you volunteered (modern US/Brit soldier) then going home to make sense of it all.
Your telling us that all you have to do is say "gee, I sure did my best" and youll be a happy, peaceful individual? BS.
Darkness cannot put out darkness. Only light can do that… MLK
Bad Karma
09-14-2005, 12:00
Its an answer to the question.
Amen, brother!
Peace
forgive me for beating this topic to the ground, but i feel that something is being ignored.
without war, you have dictatorship. without war you have slavery. without war you have chaos and destruction. war is the spiritual man's answer to an injustice. war is a spiritual answer to a spiritual problem. going to war for the wrong reasons is wrong. that is where each person must look within himself and say "i have done every reasonable thing to avoid war, however, it is now become unreasonable not to go to war." forgive me for putting some biblical stuff in , but there was even a war in heaven. heh. even gandhi said that there are conditions for warfare. a spiritual act is not necessarily a passive one.
Sorry but I gotta call Anarchist BS here.
Without war there is slavery? Without war there is dictatorship? (I wont even touch on the bizarre "without war you have chaos and destruction"... thats just too goofy to even deal with here)
Yes, there have been wars to free slaves, and there have been wars to stop dictators.... but to argue that that was the only way to stop the problem is just shortsightedness. Show me 1 war, and Ill show you 100 waged in the name of power, corruption, money, or fame. Show me one war where innocents havent died, been maimed, or left orphaned.
Even the war in heaven was fought for power.
Right To Defend
09-16-2005, 19:05
I said nothing about it only being about "DOING YOUR BEST", I preempted it with "Doing what was right"...and yes, sometimes war is the right thing to do...
Well Gee.... Now you just need to get everyone fighting to agree that the war is just (which when you consider that volunteer militaries are a modern invention, you can bet most people in most wars didnt think that war was "the right thing".)
You might consider reading Ltc Dave Grossman. He really outlines why the very vast majority of people (approx 98%) are not fighters, nor do they want to be.... and when forced to fight, what psychological changes and responses happen in order to keep them sane - - a sanity which was demonstrated in WW1 to be quite tenuous. Psychological casualties are a fact that cannot be ignored.
More than one person has joined a monastary after their military service.
I think the most spiritual thing a man can do is to do something he believes is right even if it doesn't feel good when doing it. War falls in that catagory.
To give your life for your cause is the biggest sacrifice you can give.
To give your life for your cause is the biggest sacrifice you can give.
To be forced to give your life, or watch others be forced to give their lives, for a cause they do not share.... can test the faith of even the most devout.
Aikido_Girl918
10-09-2005, 11:35
well, i agree with atalaya, but most of you don't seem to understand. i think what atalaya is trying to say, and so am i, is that war is used as a last resort only when harmony and peace are lost. when harmony and peace among people are lost, they must be regained, and that often leads to war. it makes sense. harmony, happiness, wisdom, and peace are the core foundations of spirituality. you are using thes four things simply to think of starting a war. you must be wise enough to know when harmony and peace are far enough gone that they need restoring, then you must restore them, which restores happiness to all involved in the original problem
Shidoshi
02-14-2006, 08:01
Its been a LONG time since I've even visited this place, alone posted !
I've not been involved in any MA for a long time about 4 years now, but various sequence of events in my recent life have brought me around in an almost full circle, to the point where I have started looking at MA again, but from a totally different perspective.
When I last practised MA, I was a regular, was more interested in the Fun and Fitness, the SD was an added benefit.
3 years ago to this month, I ask my girl friend to marry me. We got a house together, we spilt a year later. I got depressed, accumulated a debt. We got back together 6 months later, about 18 months ago. We set a date for the wedding for May just gone. Started regularly going to church (both catholic families, quite a few members regular church goers). I eventually told my Fiance about the debt. The Priest upset my fiance as he basically said that she should stay with her husband even if he abused her, this touched a nerve as she had been raped when she was at College (before I knew her).
We got married in May, had a great honey-moon in Scotland (decided against Florida as we wanted somewhere quiet). Sometime around then we decided to try for a baby.
When we got back, we decided that we wanted to be as debt free for the baby, so first plan was getting rid of the credit card bills from the wedding and a chunk of my debt, which was done by selling our sports bikes(yeah my wife is a biker chick :p)). We cut back on stuff like mobile phones, cable TV packages reducing our monthly outgoings, and in 12 months time this debt will be payed off and still have enough money to enjoy ourselves, as long as we are careful.
This happened about last month, and ever since I've been pondering about my life, where its going, especially with the recent change of marriage, money situation and wanting to start a family, even the fact I've lost faith in my religion, whats important in life, my life, what I actually put value and importance on.
One of the things I need is a new hobby and I thought about talking up Martial Arts again, especially as a few guys in my office have started Kung Fu.
So after a conversation with the other week at lunch, I hit google with a renewed interest in Martial Arts.
I ended up reading about Bushido and Shintoism (correct spelling ?) and I liked some of the ideas and ideals. This time around realised that I should be considering the spiritual side of Martial Arts, which last time had little interest to me. Now, I'm not saying I'm going to become a Kung-Fu-***-kickin-buddhist-monk (joke), but I thought I definitely would at-least like to read about the religious and spiritual side of martial arts.
So, if anyone has any info, stories, books or links they would like to share with me about the religious and spiritual side Martial Arts, I would genuinely be grateful.a good book is the 5 rings by musashi miyamoto
just to quickly name some books that can give you some insight into philosophy on some japanese arts.
book of 5 rings (just mentioned)-miyamoto musashi
hagakure-yamamoto tsunetomo
karate-do my way of life-gichin funakoshi
i probably have enjoyed gichin funakoshi's book the most because its very personal,its really more autobiographical but chocked full of philosophy. there is plenty to be learned in all those books and you can obtain them pretty cheap at most book stores.i got a hardcover copy of book of 5 rings and that was 17 dollars the other two were paper back for only 10.not bad at all.
Im battling my way through Hagakure atm ! I keep having to reread most of the sentances to actually understand what they mean.
I also have Book of 5 Rings, but need to get into Hagakure seem as I've started it :)
David Craik
02-16-2006, 05:58
Wouldn't put too much stock in the Hagakure. Though worth a read only because people quote the thing so much.
Eldritch Knight
02-16-2006, 08:21
Yea... a lot of the sentences/phrases don't make much sense outside of a Japanese, or even a feudal Japanese context. Book of 5 Rings, on the other hand, though it was written with swordsmen in mind, could apply to just about anyone.
David Craik
02-17-2006, 06:06
Not so much that, but the fact that Tsunetomo was a minor functionary who was never even in a personal duel, let alone a battle. So his fanaticism and pining for 'the good old days' kind of ring hollow to me.
Teufelhunden
02-21-2006, 10:02
When I read this I just had to join so I could reply. I know who ever you talk to, you will get a different perspective and now here is mine. First for me Martial Arts is not a hobby it is a way of live. ( We could go on and on about this). But a spiritual side of MA I don't see it in MA. MA is the Warrior's Way not necessarily Asian Fighting Arts but all Martial (Military) Arts physical and strategic. But as we all need balance Yin & Yang, In & Yo, Um & Yang may I suggest a great book to read the Bible. I'm not a religous fantic but I have had some negative reaction to some religions especially when they say they are the only ones worthy of heaven. ( another subject I'm not going into). Book of 5 Rings good book have 3 different translations good strategies in life as well as fighting. Other books you might like to read Beyond the Known by Tri Thong Dang and See you at the Top by Zig Ziglar ( A business book but some good out looks on life.).
HanDragon
02-21-2006, 16:30
To enjoy living life is the greatest thing. To concentrate on the "now"...and enjoy what "is", and not worry about what it "could" be. Too often we enjoy some aspect of life up to a point, then we say, "Wow, this would be great if...blah blah blah." We are so involved in making something "better" that we miss out on what "is".
Face all things with an "empty cup" and try to flow with whatever comes your way. That is what I try to do each day.
I, btw, consider myself a Christian-Taoist in that I believe in a Creator, but I have not been satisfied with any form of organized religion. IMO, the churches that I have attended seem to be about impressing other members with what one possesses instead of true worship of God. And since my finding of Taoism and meditation I feel that I have become closer to the Creator, and have become a more calm and centered individual. The study of Martial Arts has brought me toward Taoism, philosophy, meditation, and is an intregal part of my own type of worship. After all, isn't inner peace the goal of religion? And where could one find inner peace if he doesn't look inside himself? We all hold the keys to our own happiness, choosing to use them is something we must do of our own accord.
Just my two-cents worth.
hagakure isn't to bad but i would say its different from the other two books i've listed. i think that hagakure should just go ahead and be sold with its own grain of salt if you know what i mean. some of the passages i thought were very interesting but then some were just odd. a book i was recommended is bushido by inazo nitobe. whats fortunate about this book for us americans that can't speak japanese is that nitobe actually wrote the book in english. while many of these other texts were originally written in japanese by one person and then translated into english by another. you have to be weary of these because some people translate and some people interpret. i know when i bought the book of 5 rings i wanted to know what miyamoto musashi was thinking not what some one else thinks musashi meant when he said this or that. i want as close to direct translation as possible and all the interpretation left to myself. so in that sense i think its fortunate that inazo nitobe (who was a native of japan and was actually on japanese currency) went ahead and wrote this book in english. if anyone has read it i'd like to know their thoughts.
David Craik
04-14-2006, 05:24
Never been a great fan of Nitobe's 'Bushido'...it's apologist leanings and often unneccesary obscure literary references kind of grate on me.
He apparently was quite an interesting fellow, though:
http://ejmas.com/tin/tinart_buchner2_0200.htm
oye thats never fun when one book requires other books to help it make sense. i'm going to give it a read sometime and see if i can't learn something from it. david, are there any books in particular you would personally recommend concerning japanese martial arts and philosophy or any good reads on related subjects?
ShakeyOneTKD
04-15-2006, 19:41
may I suggest a great book to read the Bible.
I hate to offend any Christians and such but instead of reading the Bible you can just read some Greek stoic philosophy [Plato, Aristotle, etc.]. Much of the Bible is stoic philosophy with a theological twist.
David Craik
04-16-2006, 05:53
oye thats never fun when one book requires other books to help it make sense. i'm going to give it a read sometime and see if i can't learn something from it.
I was familiar with most of his literary references, but they are so often unneccesary they become annoying, much like his repeated Biblical references. Like Dante's Inferno, it sounds like he's trying too hard. Of course, it was written in 1899, so it's Victorian style is somewhat expected. By all means give it a read though..like the Hagakure it's a famous one. It isn't "bad" by any means, but there are better ones for getting a feel for how bushi thought and felt, IMHO.
david, are there any books in particular you would personally recommend concerning japanese martial arts and philosophy or any good reads on related subjects?
Before getting into any readings on 'Bushido' seriously, I first recommend reading the following article by Dr. Karl Friday, Professor of History at the University of Georgia and holder of menkyo kaiden in the Kashima Shinryu:
The Historical Foundations of Bushido (http://www.koryu.com/library/kfriday2.html)
I really like 'Ideals of the Samurai', a collection of translations by William Scott Wilson. They are writings of various daimyo and warriors, including Takeda Shingen and Kato Kiyomasa. It is an easy read, but reading their opinions and regulations really shows the differences in how different warriors and leaders thought in different time periods and clans and having differing levels of influence from Buddhism. Pretty enjoyable too, especially Kiyomasa..he's very blunt and down to earth.
Another one I like that is a very simple read is the Bushido Shoshinsu (also sometimes referred to as the Budo Shoshinsu depending on translator). I have the Thomas Cleary one called 'Code of the Samurai'. I think this little book, written for novice samurai, is about as close to the ideal of a generic 'Bushido' as one can get in English.
Since the thread is about the 'spiritual side' of MA, some good ones in that quarter are:
The Life Giving Sword, by Yagyu Munenori, translated by Wilson. Some is difficult to understand from a point of view outside the Yagyu Shinkage Ryu (it's original intended readership) but there is some good stuff in there.
The Sword and the Mind, trans. by Hiroaki Sato. These are translations of the Heiho Kaden Sho, the Fudochi Shinmyo Roku (Divine Record of Immovable Wisdom), and the Taia Ki. I don't think Sato is a martial artist himself, but the quality of translation is excellent.
The Unfettered Mind, Takuan Soho, trans. Wilson. This also has different translations of the Fudochi Shinmyo Roku and the Taia Ki.
I'd also take a look at 'The Zen Way to the Martial Arts' by Taisen Deshimaru if you get a chance.
And of course, anything by Dave Lowry. Though I wouldn't term most of his books 'philosophy', the numerous anecdotes and stories are very enlightening, and very interesting and enjoyable. I also like 'Karate-do, My Way of Life', by Funakoshi.
after reading that article on bushido it reminded me of something this comedian robert wuhl said; "when the legend becomes fact, print the legend". so it seems to be the case with bushido where people who 'know' of it have a certain concept of what they think it was while it was actually not quite so simple.
anyway i'm going to have to check out some of these books suggested.i think i'm going to start with the life giving sword. i have the thomas cleary translation of the book of five rings and it contains some work by yagyu munenori title family traditions on the art of war but its just a small collection. perhaps 60 pps or so but i did enjoy what i read so i'd like to see a full version of it. i want to check out all those books just thought that'd be a good starting point.
Edit: thank you to david for suggesting those books
Gene Williams
04-26-2006, 16:46
I hate to offend any Christians and such but instead of reading the Bible you can just read some Greek stoic philosophy [Plato, Aristotle, etc.]. Much of the Bible is stoic philosophy with a theological twist.
You are in urgent need of some Theology AND Philosophy courses. :bow:
Yang Wei Xin
04-27-2006, 14:06
I suggest reading the book "Walden: Or a Life In the Woods"
can't remember the authors name, but its a great ode to laziness.
Letha Hadady
04-27-2006, 16:48
I suggest reading the book "Walden: Or a Life In the Woods"
can't remember the authors name, but its a great ode to laziness.
Hi
I loved Walden when I read it as a kid. Such a beautiful naturalist philosophy. He praised simplicity and respect for nature. It was written by Henry James Thoreau on walden pond in Massachusetts in our New England. He translated Homer, from ancient Greek into English, while spending the summer in contemplation on walden pond. He admired a hill of ants as they worked, crowded together but living in peace. I wish we humans could do that. He taught school, and wrapped his students' on the fingers with a big stick when they did not study. Not an easy teacher.
I am glad you enjoyed the book too.
I have studied chinese medicine in the USA and in China and am happy to talk with you on this website.
all good luck, Letha
www.asianhealthsecrets.com
Yang Wei Xin
04-27-2006, 16:58
I heard that it was a favorite of Gandhi's.
breaksallaround
05-12-2006, 15:59
The Life Giving Sword, by Yagyu Munenori, translated by Wilson. Some is difficult to understand from a point of view outside the Yagyu Shinkage Ryu (it's original intended readership) but there is some good stuff in there.
The Sword and the Mind, trans. by Hiroaki Sato. These are translations of the Heiho Kaden Sho, the Fudochi Shinmyo Roku (Divine Record of Immovable Wisdom), and the Taia Ki. I don't think Sato is a martial artist himself, but the quality of translation is excellent.
The Unfettered Mind, Takuan Soho, trans. Wilson. This also has different translations of the Fudochi Shinmyo Roku and the Taia Ki.
And of course, anything by Dave Lowry. Though I wouldn't term most of his books 'philosophy', the numerous anecdotes and stories are very enlightening, and very interesting and enjoyable. I also like 'Karate-do, My Way of Life', by Funakoshi.
Thomas Cleary also translated 'The Life-Giving Sword' in a book called 'Soul of the Samurai', which contains 'Modern Translations' of 'Martial Arts: The Book of Family Traditions' by Yagyu Munenori (including 'The Killing Sword', 'The Life-Giving Sword', and 'No Sword'), and the Fudochi Shinmyo Roku and the Tai-a Ki, both by Takuan Soho. it's nice and small, like 'Code of the Samurai'. i haven't read other translations (plus i don't speak japanese) so i can't comment on the quality of translation.
i don't really have anything to add to the above list except 'The Essence of Ninjutsu: The Nine Traditions' by Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi. i would describe this book the way David described Dave Lowry's writing, only it is definitely philosophical.
kind of off topic, i just found 'Soul of the Samurai' and 'Code of the Samurai' translated by Cleary, 'Karate-Do: My Way of Life' by Funakoshi and 'Classical Bujutsu, Vol. 1' by Donn F. Draeger at my local used book store! Awesome! :D
i loved karate-do: my way of life. i just started reading it again actually.
breaksallaround
05-12-2006, 18:23
i loved karate-do: my way of life. i just started reading it again actually.
great book. i've only read about half of it (the 2nd half, oddly enough) but it's been really insightful. he covers so much more than Karate. i was surprised to read that he never learned how to swim! also there was a part which confused me: he mentions something about being 90 years old, but he was born in 1868 and died in 1957. :confused: ah, well, i guess i better read some more.
Gene Williams
05-12-2006, 18:24
Hi
I loved Walden when I read it as a kid. Such a beautiful naturalist philosophy. He praised simplicity and respect for nature. It was written by Henry James Thoreau on walden pond in Massachusetts in our New England. He translated Homer, from ancient Greek into English, while spending the summer in contemplation on walden pond. He admired a hill of ants as they worked, crowded together but living in peace. I wish we humans could do that. He taught school, and wrapped his students' on the fingers with a big stick when they did not study. Not an easy teacher.
I am glad you enjoyed the book too.
I have studied chinese medicine in the USA and in China and am happy to talk with you on this website.
all good luck, Letha
www.asianhealthsecrets.com
It is Henry DAVID Thoreau. The "woods" were less than a mile from his home and his Mama brought him sandwiches several days a week. Some noble savage. If he had lived today, he probably would have been Al Gore. :laugh:
breaksallaround
05-12-2006, 18:39
It is Henry DAVID Thoreau. The "woods" were less than a mile from his home and his Mama brought him sandwiches several days a week. Some noble savage. If he had lived today, he probably would have been Al Gore. :laugh:
lol! :laugh:
"c'mon, you guys we gotta kill manbearpig!!! i'm totally cereal!!" - Al Gore
AllanJGAnderson
05-12-2006, 22:46
Half man, half bear, half pig. . . . . Manbearpig.
Yang Wei Xin
05-15-2006, 10:56
It is Henry DAVID Thoreau. The "woods" were less than a mile from his home and his Mama brought him sandwiches several days a week. Some noble savage. If he had lived today, he probably would have been Al Gore. :laugh:
Thats why I said it was an ode to laziness. I wish I could live in the woods with sando's provided by mom.
Potatoe!
~ :eek: Edit: Happy 1000th post to me :eek: ~
One book I'd have to recommend is "Beyond the Known" by Tri Tong Dang (hope I spelled the name right), as well as "Toward the Unknown" by the same author.
Although both are written as narratives, they provide good insights on the philosophy of the martial arts.
shotokan!
08-15-2006, 08:17
I also do the spiritual side of Shotokan Karate.
Gichin Funakoshi (the one that invented Shotokan) made his own 'Dojo Kun' and precepts. I follow these along with many other karate-ka and they give you guidelines of how to live basically without the hadrships with the meditation and all that.
It does have many good outcomes.
Beeing about one year later im curious to find out how things have worked out for you sir. I find threads like this intresting spanning such a time frame
at any rate i hope things have gone well for you and i give you best wishes
"Living The Martial Way" is a great book . I found it in a used book store for 6 bucks and is the best money that I have spent in a while. If you can find "promise and fulfillment in the art of Taekwondo" and "The Making of A Martial Artist", both by Sang Kyu Shim, they are worth the read.
I believe all traditional martial arts can bring a spiritual side. The men who founded these arts grew in a buddhist/shintoist culture. Those ideas have a way that the arts are studied. The key is finding how your art is helping you. Continuosuly practing is key for a good karate. There is alot he will find both in the technical aspects and spiritual.
http://www.angelfire.com/mn/marphil/monk.html
that is a link to an interview done on one of my higher level shifus, venerable shi guolin, it explains some of his philosophies and how he believes the martial arts and religion coenside (spelling)
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