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Jango007

08-19-2005, 08:17

Here is the question:

What style would a BJJ black belt fear to go up against? The answers can be anything except BJJ.

Regards,
J.

LJS93

08-19-2005, 14:04

Honestly, I doubt a BJJ blackbelt would "fear" any style. However as for grappling I must say a super experienced wrestler, someone who has a super tight and powerful game. Wrestlers can give you trouble that's for sure.

Erik

08-19-2005, 14:54

Probably a very skilled full contact kickboxer who is wearing tight clothing without handgrips. Once he's on the ground, though, the game is in favor of the BJJ guy.

Or, of course, someone who is armed.

Jango007

08-22-2005, 10:07

Thats a surprise I would of expected you guys to choose somthing like Sambo or Ju-Jitsu. I don't know if this is a style but I thought you all would of also chosen Krav M. Well that does to show you how much I know about BJJ. lol

Regards,
Jango

MarcoPolo

08-22-2005, 12:55

It makes sense. I don't typically "fear" someone who has a style that is similiar to mine. I mean, he may "outgrapple" me, but i'm at least in my element. I would fear someone who could exploit a huge hole in my game... like a good MT guy who has learned to sprawl a la Vanderlei.

(Then again, i'm not a black belt.. but you know what I mean!) ;)

MMAfighter

08-22-2005, 22:06

Any other ground style, if it's an MMA dude, then yea them too.

Mikey Triangles

08-25-2005, 05:59

Sayoc Kali ...well that's my biggest fear anyway. From what I've seen they seem to be the most dangerous fighters to be in close quarters with on the street, and to utilize BJJ you usually need to be in close.

If you're reffering to competition and ring/cage fights only then I guess my answer is void.

Jango007

08-25-2005, 15:45

Mikey Triangles

08-25-2005, 18:35

Nah am referring to the streets. I dont mind if you put in compeition aswell just state it.

By the way what is Sayoc Kali? Do you have a website or anything so I can have a look sounds good.

P.S. to other readers I don't mean which style would beat bjj anytime anywhere, I just mean which style would you give a second thought to even the slightest and have some fear when in a confrontation, and doubt your bjj skills.

Regards,
Jango.

Check it out: http://www.sayoc.com/

I've seen Tuhon Chris Sayoc in action, the man can throw a chopstick and make it stick into a plank of wood... oh, and there's the fact that he carries like 20 knives on him all the time (often A LOT more when he teaches seminars). My ninpo instructor holds a 2nd Degree Black Belt under Tuhon Sayoc, so I get to learn a little bit here and there, and man this stuff is brutal.

The Sayoc Fighting System covers a lot of ground and is very well rounded, but is most famous for it's incredible use of knives. Sayoc practicioners usually carry multiple knives on them and use some as projectiles to close the distance, then pull another as they rush in for 'total dismemberment'. In the Sayoc System you're taught all the vital areas and the best ways to nail them, they also do a fair amount of grappling, but mostly with knives and sticks (Unfortunetly a lot of the best positions and submissions in BJJ leave you completely open to lethal and crippling cuts if the person your fighting has a knife/knives and knows what they're doing). Sayoc practicioners even learn the best places to keep knives for easy access, how to pull them out from all different positions without letting the other person notice, different juggling techniques to switch hands in case your enemy is able to control your hand with the weapon, and so on.

If you watch the movie "The Hunted" you'll see a lot of Sayoc Kali put into practice.

Jeff C.

08-26-2005, 11:38

Check it out: http://www.sayoc.com/

I've seen Tuhon Chris Sayoc in action, the man can throw a chopstick and make it stick into a plank of wood... oh, and there's the fact that he carries like 20 knives on him all the time (often A LOT more when he teaches seminars). My ninpo instructor holds a 2nd Degree Black Belt under Tuhon Sayoc, so I get to learn a little bit here and there, and man this stuff is brutal.

The Sayoc Fighting System covers a lot of ground and is very well rounded, but is most famous for it's incredible use of knives. Sayoc practicioners usually carry multiple knives on them and use some as projectiles to close the distance, then pull another as they rush in for 'total dismemberment'. In the Sayoc System you're taught all the vital areas and the best ways to nail them, they also do a fair amount of grappling, but mostly with knives and sticks (Unfortunetly a lot of the best positions and submissions in BJJ leave you completely open to lethal and crippling cuts if the person your fighting has a knife/knives and knows what they're doing). Sayoc practicioners even learn the best places to keep knives for easy access, how to pull them out from all different positions without letting the other person notice, different juggling techniques to switch hands in case your enemy is able to control your hand with the weapon, and so on.

If you watch the movie "The Hunted" you'll see a lot of Sayoc Kali put into practice.

Mike,

I would put my money on the BJJ guy with a gun against a Sayoc guy with 20 knives any day. ;)

My point is, there is a difference between sport application of BJJ, self-defense application of BJJ, and applied combatives that integrates BJJ (such as MACP).

How does the Sayoc system deal with legal self-defense?

Jeff Cook

Mikey Triangles

08-26-2005, 17:20

Mike,

I would put my money on the BJJ guy with a gun against a Sayoc guy with 20 knives any day. ;)

What about the Sayoc guy with a gun, 20 knives, and strategically placed proximity mines :)

My point is, there is a difference between sport application of BJJ, self-defense application of BJJ, and applied combatives that integrates BJJ (such as MACP).

Ok, I wasn't in any way trying to put any style down. I'm still not too familiar with the differences between street and tournement application of BJJ since I'm so new to the art. I just pointed out a couple things I noticed... and I wasn't really thinking about intergrated modern military styles like MACP when I was making this post.

The original poster asked what style I'd fear to go up against, and that was the first to come to mind so I posted, please don't take it the wrong way.

I'm not calling it superior or anything... it's just 1 style I happen to find a bit scary... I've got a thing with blades, and slicing, and blood... and total dismemberment, *shivers*.

How does the Sayoc system deal with legal self-defense?

Hmmm... I'm not sure. Do you mean against a gun, or with the legal system? Like I said I'm not really a student of the art, someone in the FMA Forum would know better then me.

Mikey Triangles

08-26-2005, 18:29

Edit- Sorry, I just realized that I made a mistake in my last post, and it's too late to edit it. I didn't mean to imply that I was a BJJ Black Belt. I just forgot what the original post said.

Jeff C.

08-26-2005, 18:43

kenpo123

08-26-2005, 19:24

depends on the person wearing the black belt and his opponent..

Mikey Triangles

08-26-2005, 19:25

Mike, no offense taken. By the way, I will trump your mines with a tactical nuclear warhead. So there! ;)

What I was asking concerning Syoc and self-defense is, how do they teach their students the legal application of force, especially when it involves a sub-lethal situation?

Jeff Cook

Ok, well again, I'm not really a student of this style, but they definetly do go over deciphering what level of force a situation calls for, and the proper way to handle those situations whether they be life threatening or not... or at least my teacher does, but I can't really think up any great examples right now (it's been a long day at work). There's also a whole curriculum of empty hand, and stick techniques, but I haven't learned any yet.

Jeff C.

08-27-2005, 20:47

Thanks, Mike! Sounds good. I hope to visit NY for the first time this fall. Hope to see you when I do!

Jeff Cook

TonyU

08-27-2005, 20:53

Bad Karma

08-28-2005, 13:14

The MMA fighter is the new breed of martial artist entering the scene. Like, that coach in TUF2 that beat Shamrock. I would think this type person would be a concern for any BB, regardless of style. I do wonder how our MMA fighter's differs from Lutra Livre (SP?) fighter's in Brazil, though - no clue.

Peace

Tony Dismukes

08-28-2005, 15:01

Like, that coach in TUF2 that beat Shamrock. I would think this type person would be a concern for any BB, regardless of style.

That would be Rich Franklin, who holds a brown belt in BJJ. He'd probably have his black belt already if he did more gi work. So yes, a BJJ expert who isn't also an expert in boxing/mauy thai would do well to be worried about another BJJ expert who is also an expert in boxing/muay thai.

Bad Karma

08-28-2005, 15:29

Ah! I stand corrected then. I overheard that he was not from any certain style - Dana White said that while I was watching the new TUF2, 1st show, last night.

Peace

Tony Dismukes

08-28-2005, 15:40

I'm not sure if Rich really identifies with one base style or not. You may very well be right that he regards himself just as a MMA fighter, rather than a BJJ player who knows boxing, or a kickboxer who knows BJJ. I think he started fighting before he started BJJ training. I just wanted to point out that he does have genuine expertise in BJJ.

Tony Dismukes

08-28-2005, 15:44

Correction, I just double-checked his website and Rich did have some BJJ training before he started his fight career.

Bad Karma

08-28-2005, 19:05

Some as in Brown belt level or intermediate level Blue belt or less?

Peace

Mikey Triangles

08-29-2005, 06:35

Thanks, Mike! Sounds good. I hope to visit NY for the first time this fall. Hope to see you when I do!

Jeff Cook

If you do, please let me know. I'm only 30 minutes out of NYC. I would like to meet you.

He he, perhaps we could have a Budoseek meeting, or something. There's quite a few of you on this board that I would relish the oppurtunity to train with and learn from.

TonyU

08-29-2005, 09:45

He he, perhaps we could have a Budoseek meeting, or something. There's quite a few of you on this board that I would relish the oppurtunity to train with and learn from.
That would be cool. I feel the same way.

Tony Dismukes

08-29-2005, 10:22

Some as in Brown belt level or intermediate level Blue belt or less?

I'm not sure where he was at that point. According to his site, he trained for a short while at a school that closed down, and then trained with friends in the backyard shed until he got into the fight game. If I had to guess, it sounds like he wasn't past blue belt level at that point. He's been training with Jorge Gurgel for several years now, and got his brown belt from Jorge.

I've rolled with Rich and my observations are a) he's extremely technical, very relaxed and smooth, and b) he's a really nice guy. He could have crushed me easily at any point, but he always kept the pressure just at a level where I could try something and keep learning from the match.

Jango007

08-29-2005, 18:25

Mikey Triangles

08-30-2005, 05:35

I just checked out the Sayoc website and man I gota say that is some dangerous stuff. I wonder if they actually would use those weapons in the streets cause across here the police are not even allowed to carry guns only certain do. Thats truly a style to have some fear of though.

Yeah, that's one style I'd preffer not to mess with, but if I had to guess I'd say the last guys in the world most BJJ Black Belts would probably want to roll with would be the gentleman that practice the... uh, art of Kino Mutai (http://www.geocities.com/jkdinstructor/kinomutai.html?200530)

khaynie

08-31-2005, 22:24

I did some "Comjuka Kali" some grandmaster ladies version. I worked under tuhan (sp?) Mike Madrid. It was all knife/stick/grappling stuff with threats of cutting peoples arms off at the shoulder, and fileting their forearms etc. It seemed cool and when I was active in it, I was obsessed like the rest of them with sticks in the car (some guys carry them in pool stick cases) and knives tucked everywhere, but it seemed kind of weird you know like packing my .40 to go to the grocery store....When I found that the beauty of the art and advanced aspect was going into the fight barehanded and either taming them with their own weapon or taking it from them.....But she (I cant remember her name, (a Fillipino lady who lives in El Paso and runs the "martial arts hall of fame" there) but the system was very money driven, this month you have to buy special headband I sewed myself, or this month you have to pay for my seminar, and her tuhan had to enforce these monetary mandatories or not teach at all.....he decided he would rather not teach at all. But arent there some guys call the Dog Brothers or something that do like "live" knife/stick drills, cuts, bruises and all?

Keith

Jango007

10-29-2005, 08:26

Kino Mutai where do u find these next hardcore martial arts man? First Sayoc then Kina Mutai lol.

A strong grip is one of the most important attributes in kino mutai because being able to hold onto an opponent while biting him is the Philippine way of cheating on the ground. Yep they would certainly give anyone on the ground a good fight :laugh:

skurk

10-29-2005, 09:09

Ive met Rich a few times at the ICE Fights at Metropolis Night club. He is a really classy guy and was more then happy to talk to anybody that came up to him.

Back to subject. My opinion maybe Catch wrestling. I finally started learning BJJ and been studying Catch and theirs things In their I have never seen.Alot of people think some of the catch stuff is dumb cause they force certain submission with strength that hurt but not enough to tap or can get out of easly. But they use those moves for set ups to gain postions to throw out sub combonations and are good at constantly inflicting pain.

sprite

10-29-2005, 22:31

maybe a muay thaier

Mikey Triangles

10-30-2005, 15:19

Kino Mutai where do u find these next hardcore martial arts man? First Sayoc then Kina Mutai lol.

Yep they would certainly give anyone on the ground a good fight :laugh:

The Phillipines ;)

I'm technically a student of the Sayoc Fighting System (which is awesome for SD), and Kino Mutai is something I'm familiar with but try to stay away from... far away.

topgun3442

10-30-2005, 18:03

This is to mike, I have studied sayoc kali under guro terry pollard in chattanooga tn. i love the system, very detailed. We worked under chris sayoc for a number of years, but decided to stop carring the family name of sayoc because it cost so much. Anyways, check out our site if you have time, since we are under the same kali system. It is nice to make new contacts.

topgun3442

10-30-2005, 18:04

I'm sorry about that, I forgot to put down the website address. It's www.schoolofthefightingarts.com

Luebbers

10-30-2005, 21:42

Mikey Triangles

11-01-2005, 10:45

I can't remember if someone already posted this, but I was just thinking that the last thing I would want to do in a street fight is to bite the other guy. I'll agree that it can be a fine self defense technique, but the other guy could have any number of blood-born illnesses. Just think - would you have unprotected sex with this person? Because that's more or less what you're doing when you bite them.

Ofcourse, I agree 100%.

They actually mention that on the website if you read through it. Their argument is something like: would you be willing to risk it if it meant your life... or the life of your child?

They had to play the kid card :(

ChampNtraining

11-01-2005, 23:54

I'd be particulalry afraid of a dedicated King-Fu practionor if BJJ was my main style. BJJ teaches a great deals of holds, locks, and submissions, but Kung teaches a great deal of ways to escape a lot of those and put you into a hold at the same time. Grappling arts teachyou this same thing but against Kung-Fu I'd have that apprehension and fear about what's comming next, while facing other grapplers I'd general have a second sense about what he's going to do.

I'm singling out Kung-Fu because I used to take it and I've applied some of the simpler escape techniques using kung-fu style pressure point and joint manipulations on a lot of the higher ranking belts in my BJJ class and perplexed them. Just one of those things that made me stop and think for a while.

sonic

11-02-2005, 00:48

what kind of kung fu?

ChampNtraining

11-02-2005, 01:10

I'd be more than happy to announce a style of Kung-Fu but I took 2 years of it at what I know realise was a McDojo and it was simply referred to as Kung-Fu, period. I'm a bit jealous of other guys that had technical training in specific styles and I'm left looking like the slow kid with just the simple reply of "Kung-Fu". :(

Sorry Brendan, that's the best I can give you.

Archimedes

11-02-2005, 02:53

Are you taking your BJJ at a McDojo too?

Jango007

11-03-2005, 05:50

Link (http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php?name=Links&file=viewlinkinfo&id=44)

Commenting on the kung-fu McDojo have a look at the video just click on the link. Most of you all probably saw it already but it claims "Kung Fu vs MMA".

Regards,
Jango