The Tang in Tang Soo Do

[ChristianTSD]

You may have seen this post on other message boards - I am posting it on several across the internet, because I am interested in the response to this.

Recently, I have been studying the development of Tang Soo Do, and various martial arts in general. The following is my opinion and result of my research. This is probably guaranteed to be controversial.

Ok, so Tang Soo Do is a Korean art, that is the "Way of the Chinese Hand." Our traditional hyung, however, are Japanese. We all know Hwang Kee used these Shoto-kan kata, that he found in a book, as a marketing device, as before this time there were no TSD hyung. Assuming you accept it, Hwang Kee has traditional Korean kicking techniques from his observational study of Taekkyon. Our art is from Korean and Chinese sources (Hwang Kee was the only kwan founder without a Japanese Dan ranking). But, it rather looks Japanese. So where is our Chinese hand? Where is our Chinese influence? Did Hwang Kee really train with Jang Sam Bong (it is disputed by the Yang family that anyone of that name existed...)? What exactly did he learn in China, and how does it reflect in our art?

I beleive that TSD, as currently practiced, reveals a trend towards Japanese style, and does not remain true to the original art.


TSD is a front-foot fighting art. As such, it does not make sense to fight from a lunging, or a boxer's stance, nor the traditional Japanese or Okinawan fighting stances. So what stance do we fight from? Chances are, it is Hu Gul Jaseh, or Koyangi Jaseh.

Now, look at the Koyangi Jaseh. Go ahead, stand up in it. Now, shift your weight so that it is centered over your legs, rather than being primariily on the back. Rotate the lead foot in, to mirror your back foot, and turn your torso to match your pelvis. If you understood what I just said, and did it, you are in the Chinese-style pigeon-toed horse stance. Both this stance, and the rotated form of it, that we know as a koyangi jaseh, are common in Chinese arts.

But what about power development, and how the body is held? I did not notice this until I began practicing Wing Chun, and read these lines in the Song of the Sip Sam Seh:

"If the base of the spine is erect, energy flows to the head. Keep the body relaxed. The head should be held as if suspended from a string." (paraphrased)

That last sentence is common in Chinese arts, when being instructed about how to hold the body. But, I want to focus in on the base of the spine. The base of the spine is the coccyx, and it is curved. In order to have it erect, or straight, it must be TUCKED UNDER - a la Chinese arts. Go ahead and try this one - back in your Koyangi Jaseh, tuck your pelvis under. Not so much that you are thrusting forward, but enough that your back is straight from the base to the head. Loosen your shoulders, and kick something. See how much power you have, from that body position, even if you weren't trying? What I wonder is where this emphasis has been lost.

To me, this shows that TSD is not just "Koreanized Shotokan" or "stolen karate" - though it can become that, and has in some practicioners. Do we not have a responsibility to rediscover our lost "Tang", and practice TSD as it should be? I feel we do.

Your responses are appreciated.

In Christ,
Phil Stewart
Sa Dan Tang Soo Do

[arod]

Why? Does it matter…really? What if you found after months or years of research that HK was a Japanese guy pretending to be Korean? What if you found out that Tang soo do was actually influenced entirely by Japanese karate? What if he was never taught a single thing by anyone of influence? Would you feel differently about your art? I always have to ask these questions to people who get caught up in this whole lineage, who taught who BS. I mean no disrespect; it is fun to look at history and the heritage of the art one trains in. I enjoy it as well but all it is in the end, is a he said she said game. And who really cares? Do you enjoy TSD? Does it work for you? Do you enjoy a good relationship with your teacher, what ever that may be? These are some important questions. I like TSD very much and have nothing but respect for the founder. So while I have no answers to your questions directly, hopefully I have deepened the breadth of your inquires.

Tang Soo! :bow:

[don]

FWIW, IIRC, TANG is pronounced TO in many Jpn translations. Before Funakoshi punned it into "karate", the art(s) were called TODE, i.e., "Tang Hand."

Does the Korean "SOO" mean "hand"? If so, then Tang Soo Do is a simple trandslation of karate-do.

[Eliz]

Why? Does it matter…really? What if you found after months or years of research that HK was a Japanese guy pretending to be Korean? What if you found out that Tang soo do was actually influenced entirely by Japanese karate? What if he was never taught a single thing by anyone of influence? Would you feel differently about your art? I always have to ask these questions to people who get caught up in this whole lineage, who taught who BS. I mean no disrespect; it is fun to look at history and the heritage of the art one trains in. I enjoy it as well but all it is in the end, is a he said she said game. And who really cares? Do you enjoy TSD? Does it work for you? Do you enjoy a good relationship with your teacher, what ever that may be? These are some important questions. I like TSD very much and have nothing but respect for the founder. So while I have no answers to your questions directly, hopefully I have deepened the breadth of your inquires.

Tang Soo! :bow:

Andy,
You make a good point, and I do agree that the arguements on lineage can sometimes go to the extreme. In fact, the arguements can become down right nasty at times. I also agree that if you are happy, what is the problem?

In this case however, history is a vital ingredient in the long term development of a practioner. That doesn't mean that it has to become an arguement, but it is something that MANY [not all] long time practioners will eventually seek out in varying degrees.

I don't believe this is exclusive to the MA's. Many children who are adopted will eventually seek out information on their biological parents. I know people who have spent countless years and untold amounts of money on geneology research. There are people that study name origins just because. I think many people have a desire to know something of their past and where they "belong" in this past. MA's is no different.

[ChristianTSD]

FWIW, IIRC, TANG is pronounced TO in many Jpn translations. Before Funakoshi punned it into "karate", the art(s) were called TODE, i.e., "Tang Hand."

Does the Korean "SOO" mean "hand"? If so, then Tang Soo Do is a simple trandslation of karate-do.

Yes, it is in fact the same characters - this was a marketing device suggested by Lee, Won Kuk (as "Karate", as a generic name for martial arts was more familiar to post-Japanese occupation Koreans). The same marketing idea was behind the inclusion of Shoto-kan forms - it was what people knew, and lent credibility, so it drew in students.

And in response to the "does it really matter?" question, the idea here is not to get into arguments about lineage or history, but to create inquiry into the method which TSD practitioners execute their art - there are certain aspects - such as power development, mentioned in my original post - that are simply more effective with the original intent of the art. My hypothesis was that the Shoto-kan kata has influenced TSD in an Okinawan/Japanese direction, and away from the original intent - and this is why TSD appears Japanese but a TSD stylist is nearly always discernable from a traditional Karate stylist.

[arod]

Point made Liz. It is likely I will also look more deeply into the roots of my art at some point. Maybe you could tell me something. I do not mean this as an argument at all so bear with me on this. :)
Why is it impotent to know precisely who and where the influence comes from for a given technique? Is it important to know exactly in what way specific techniques get their power in relation to similar styles? I do get the importance of understanding where the power comes from, but I do not see the importance of how it compares to another similar style. For example, I do not have to know what the tensile strength specs are in my transmission gears to know my car will go when I put in gear. I do not have to know how my roof trusses are calced to know the roof will not fall off my house in a rainstorm. The questions I read are good ones and I wouldn’t begrudge anyone for searching out knowledge, but I am clearly missing the point on this one. By the way this isn’t the first time I have thought of brining it up. I just no that certain people whom I wont mention don’t frequent this section of the forum. :D

[ChristianTSD]

The way power develops influences what techniques tend to flow from one another, and thus helps define the tendencies and characteristics inherent to the style (not that this will not vary somewhat according to individual!). It ultimatly comes to "we do a such-and-such THIS way, because it allows you to do THIS and THIS, and that is an underlying concept of the style." A casual driver may not know the specs on his transmission, but, one who is intimately involved with the vehicle, to whom driving is a part of life (unless, of course, you race professionally and then you hire someone for this - yeah pit crew :laugh: ) WILL know, because it is important to him, and he will use the better transmission gears both to suit his driving style, and to work in his vehicle (to borrow your analogy, lol).
In Christ,
Phil Stewart

[arod]

All right I get it. Insights into the insights into the insights of martial arts. :rolleyes:

[ChristianTSD]

Haha, so to speak.

[eternalrage]

Did Hwang Kee really train with Jang Sam Bong (it is disputed by the Yang family that anyone of that name existed...)?
I thought it was Yang Kuk Jin (or is Jang Sam Bong a different pronunciation/dialect?) Anyway, Chinese influences I see in SBD are of course found in the Yuk Ro and Chil Sung Hyung. Over the past 2-3 years or so there has been a general shift in the US SBD Federation towards doing the basic Karate-like techniques in a more circular, relaxed motions in conjuction with smoother hip movements.

The sparring has been pushed towards more deflection and dissipation of force rather than clashing, and more flowing and continuous sparring is encouraged, even at harder, more full contact levels. (at least in the school I attend)

[ChristianTSD]

As I understand it, Jang Sam Bong was his name pronounced in Korean. It may well be in Chinese Yang Kuk Jin - the last I knew was that no one was quite sure the Chinese name for Hwang Kee's teacher, because the Chinese name anyone could come up with was disputed by the Yang family (i.e., no one of that name existed/taught). Maybe Yang Kuk Jin is the translated, disputed name?

Of course, the Yuk Ro and Chil Sung hyung do greatly influence movement and sparring, but aren't they supposed to be more Korean than Chinese? After all, Hwang Kee interpereted them from the Muye Dobo Tongji, right (I know some people will question this, but personally, I feel he did.)? Granted, ancient KMA were greatly influenced by CMA, but I was speaking of more of a direct influence - what was taught to Hwang Kee, rather than passed down 300-500 years and then interpreted.

In Christ,
Phil Stewart

[Eliz]

Point made Liz. Why is it impotent to know precisely who and where the influence comes from for a given technique? Is it important to know exactly in what way specific techniques get their power in relation to similar styles? For example, I do not have to know what the tensile strength specs are in my transmission gears to know my car will go when I put in gear.

If your hobby was cars, you would probably be very interested in that. If your job was cars (as many people here are MA's instructors or school owners), you would have to know that.


I do not have to know how my roof trusses are calced to know the roof will not fall off my house in a rainstorm.

If you were a builder or architect, it would be extremely important.

The reverse can also be true. Ever asked a question at Home Depot? Only to find out the assistant you asked is a summer helper counting down the days until he/she quits? Ever asked a waitress how something is prepared only to get a blank stare in return?

What is really boils down to, in my mind, is if I am going to teach an art style - I better KNOW the style inside and out, history and origin, and be able to discuss it with students on all levels. If I can't do that, I am no good as an instructor. I should also add that I have a genuine interest in such topics - I don't do it solely for teaching purposes.

By offering history/origin as well as movement and philosophy, I am furthering my students interest and knowledge. Even very young students take an interest in the origin of "all this stuff" they are learning. It's really all in the presentation. I usually introduce these topics during warm-ups - it helps to get their minds and bodies all in the same place.

I am still with you 100% on the extreme arguements.

[arod]

Liz, You bring up a good point that I have not given much thought to in the past. I am lucky being a student as opposed to a teacher. By that I mean I can pick and choose the things that I want to take away from a given lesson. I do not have the pressure to know every detail. As a teacher one must have a complete and full understanding of all aspects of the material. As a student I strive to learn as much as possible in the time I have but I can, to some degree, concentrate more on what I like the most about what I study. See… logic is not lost on me. It just takes a little longer finding its way home.
Points made everyone excellent jobs…carry on. :D

[kbarrett]

It was actually GM Lee, Won Kuk, who founded Tang Soo Do in Korean In 1944 with permission from the Japaness, he founded the Chung Do Kwan (Bule Wave School) in 1945. GM Kee, Hwang having studied MA in china, founded Hwa Soo Do and the Moo Duk Kwan in 1945.

After training with GM Lee, Won Kuk, GM Kee, Hwang intergrated Tang Soo Do into his Hwa Soo Do discipline in 1947.

Back in 1944, Tang Soo Do, taught by GM Lee, Won Kuk, was not what is taught in today's Tang Soo Do. according to GM Lee, Won Kuk, there where only ten hand techiques, eight kicking techiques, plus the kata he learn from the shotokan in Japan. GM Lee, Won Kuk was a 2nd dan in shotokan karate, from GM Funakoishi.

All of this information came from an interveiw GM Lee, Won Kuk gave to TKD times magazine and a post he wrote that I happened to come across recently.

There's a lot about Tang Soo Do, which make it a very good and complete MA.

[Margaret Lo]

If the base of the spine is erect, energy flows to the head. Keep the body relaxed. The head should be held as if suspended from a string." (paraphrased)

That last sentence is common in Chinese arts, when being instructed about how to hold the body. But, I want to focus in on the base of the spine. The base of the spine is the coccyx, and it is curved. In order to have it erect, or straight, it must be TUCKED UNDER - a la Chinese arts.

To me, this shows that TSD is not just "Koreanized Shotokan" or "stolen karate" - though it can become that, and has in some practicioners. Do we not have a responsibility to rediscove rour lost "Tang", and practice TSD as it should be? I feel we do.

This tucking under of the spine is done in shotokan as well. There is no controversy here. Tangsoodo is known to be derived from Japanese karate with little to no Chinese influence. Its just that reference to China was politically more palatable in Korea than reference to Japan in the immediate post WWII years. Just accept the fact that TSD is Koreanized shotokan karate, just as Japanese language is nipponized Korean. ;) Fretting over origins like this is a waste of time, its what the Koreans did with TSD that counts.

M

[ChristianTSD]

Sorry, I've been out of the loop for a while, but I have a response now. Kenneth, I would have to disagree with your statement that Hwang Kee integrated Lee Won Kuk's techniques - The research I have done indicated that they were friends, and Lee Won Kuk advised Hwang Kee to adopt the name as a marketing device.

In response to Margaret Lo: The method of tucking the spine is somewhat different in Shotokan. Your disagreement is your opinion, but even if the two methods were identical, there are several other indicators of TSD's Chinese origin (see my first post). I will accept that some TSD has become a Koreanized Shotokan, but it was not intended to be that way, and in some cases still is not. If you want Koreanized Karate, look at Kyokushinkai (research it before you jump on be about it being Japanese, and lean Mas Oyama's real name and methods, please). Also, this is not so much "fretting over origins" but a look into the method of executing techniques - an important fact. Now, if you want to practice your TSD as Koreanized Shotokan, that's fine, and if it works for you, great. My only point was that it was not intended that way, and certain things make more sense when looked at from the individual viewpoints.

In Christ,
Phil Stewart

[Margaret Lo]

In response to Margaret Lo: The method of tucking the spine is somewhat different in Shotokan. Your disagreement is your opinion, but even if the two methods were identical, there are several other indicators of TSD's Chinese origin (see my first post). I will accept that some TSD has become a Koreanized Shotokan, but it was not intended to be that way, and in some cases still is not. If you want Koreanized Karate, look at Kyokushinkai (research it before you jump on be about it being Japanese, and lean Mas Oyama's real name and methods, please). Also, this is not so much "fretting over origins" but a look into the method of executing techniques - an important fact. Now, if you want to practice your TSD as Koreanized Shotokan, that's fine, and if it works for you, great. My only point was that it was not intended that way, and certain things make more sense when looked at from the individual viewpoints.

In Christ,
Phil Stewart

Phil, I am a shotokan karate instructor who shares a gym with a tang so do club. To my experience, the tucking in method is identical between shotokan and TSD. Also identical to shotokan heian kata is the use of pinan forms by TSD.

Style differences or similiarities don't rest on such useless minutiae as spine tucking etc....which varies even amongst shotokan instructors. The link comes from stances and kata/hyung. Nor do I understand what Mas Oyama has to do with this. Everybody also knows he is of Korean origin, his technique is strongly influenced by goju ryu/uechi ryu methods.

My small point is, looking for things chinese in tang so do is a useless red herring. Better to concentrate on okinawan influence if you want to understand TSD's historical influences in technique. It's not that there is no chinese influence in TSD, it;s just that the chinese influence on TSD is no greater than the chinese influence on shotokan.

M

[kbarrett]

hi, Phil thanks for responding

you maybe right along that thaught. I too have read that GM Lee, Won Kuk and GM Kee, Hwang were very good friends. And like to mentioned the that, GM Lee, Won Kuk actually suggest to GM Kee, Hwang to intergrated Tang Soo Do in his Hwa Soo Do discipline.

Tang Soo Do has korean, chinese and japanese influences all threw it, which for me makes Tang Soo Do what it is. And why I like Tang Soo Do and have continued to study and will continue to study Tang Soo Do for ever.

yours in tang soo!!
ken

[ChristianTSD]

Margaret, I will likely always disagree with you. As a Tang Soo Do instructor, my experience with the art has been somewhat different, and my research has indicated otherwise, but we can agree to disagree. Yes, the pyeong'an and heian forms are nearly identical, but I am not talking so much about early skill sets as more advanced application within the style. Regardless, I appreciate your input and acknowledge your expertise, also admitting that there is every possibility you are right and I am wrong - after all, we will never REALLY know.
In Christ,
Phil Stewart

[Eliz]

Well done, Phil and Margaret. I always enjoy a good historical "sparring" match that is kept professional. As I am not a TSD practitioner, I can honestly say I came away from this thread learning various points of origin and interest.

With that said, "agreeing to disagree" might be a good place to draw the perverbial boundry.

[kbarrett]

what is very interseting, is that in Japanese Shotokan the first five katas are called "heians", but in okinawan Shorin Ryu the first five katas are call "pinans" and in Korean Tang Soo Do the first five hyungs are called "pyong Ahns" now that is very interseting i think.

we must remember that GM Funakoshi changed the names of all the Okinawan katas that he brought with him to Japan. And we know that GM Lee, Won Kuk studied under GM Funakoshi, while attending college in Japan. We also know from history that GM Lee was the first to call his MA Tang Soo Do back in 1944, a year before Japanese occupation of Korea ended.

I have come across another korean that mite have been teaching
a MA called "Kong Soo Do" in Korea back in 1944. Kong Soo Do in Korean mean Karate (empty hand way).

what i like is that we can talk about these type of things, and were all probably right. the only people who really know are long gone and the people that where there back then.

your in tang soo

[Margaret Lo]

what is very interseting, is that in Japanese Shotokan the first five katas are called "heians", but in okinawan Shorin Ryu the first five katas are call "pinans" and in Korean Tang Soo Do the first five hyungs are called "pyong Ahns" now that is very interseting i think.

we must remember that GM Funakoshi changed the names of all the Okinawan katas that he brought with him to Japan. And we know that GM Lee, Won Kuk studied under GM Funakoshi, while attending college in Japan. We also know from history that GM Lee was the first to call his MA Tang Soo Do back in 1944, a year before Japanese occupation of Korea ended.

your in tang soo

Yes it is true that prior to the late 1930s, the heians were referenced by their okinawan and therefore chinese names: pin an (peace). At that time, karate (empty hand) do was known as tang soo (chinese hand) do. Mr. Funakoshi changed the name during the 1930s to the consternation of the okinawans. All this occurrred during the Japanese occupation of Korea. I think the history is simple, the Japanese introduced their interpretation of okinawan tangsoodo to Korea.

Agreeing to disagree quite frankly makes no sense when the information is clear and undeniable. Also, I don't think we need this band-aid since I think all sides are disputing in a way that's fair. My point remains that any reading of history and analysis of technique will confirm the transport of karate to Korea. So far, nothing of fact has been given to disprove my position. I wonder why its so necessary to avoid a Japanese influence? After all, while we train in the particular cultural environment of a given art, why must we adopt the cultural biases of our instructors?

I for one am Chinese, nothing should please me more than to call everything Tang soo do. And BTW where're my royalties for paper and gunpowder!!! :laugh: But the facts are clear, and I think EXTREMELY IMPORTANT for this reason:

If you are analyzing technique and you want to look to past practice and original kata/hyung application, you had better look to the right geography and culture. In pinan sandan, tangsoodo has a nipponized version of an okinawan form. You want to look to both the okinawan original and how Japanese concepts may have altered the original applications.

After all, we are ultimately American, and we question everything. Right? So why assume the all the history our instructors have related is unbiased? Why do we give up our objectivity and the things that Americans bring to the table, a past free of Korean/Japanese rivalry which should enable us to look at the techniques and consider how to best understand them.

M

[RRousselot]

1) what is very interseting, is that in Japanese Shotokan the first five katas are called "heians", but in okinawan Shorin Ryu the first five katas are call "pinans" and in Korean Tang Soo Do the first five hyungs are called "pyong Ahns" now that is very interseting i think.

2) we must remember that GM Funakoshi changed the names of all the Okinawan katas that he brought with him to Japan.

3) what i like is that we can talk about these type of things, and were all probably right. the only people who really know are long gone and the people that where there back then.


1) Actually they are the same kanji just pronounced in Okinawan (Pin Nan), Japanese (Hei An) and Korean (Pyong An). There was no name change only language change.
2) Actually not all of them only some of them that were a little too heavy on the Chinese sounding names.
3) There are still people around that are in the know….I have met a few.





1) Yes it is true that prior to the late 1930s, the heians were referenced by their okinawan and therefore chinese names: pin an (peace). At that time, karate (empty hand) do was known as tang soo (chinese hand) do. Mr. Funakoshi changed the name during the 1930s to the consternation of the okinawans.
2) All this occurrred during the Japanese occupation of Korea. I think the history is simple, the Japanese introduced their interpretation of okinawan tangsoodo to Korea.
3) So far, nothing of fact has been given to disprove my position. I wonder why its so necessary to avoid a Japanese influence?
4) After all, while we train in the particular cultural environment of a given art, why must we adopt the cultural biases of our instructors?
M

1) Those particular kata were “invented” by Itosu, who was a student of Chinese classics and therefore must have had some knowledge of the language. One of the sayings you may be familiar with in Chinese is “Yi Lu Ping An”….. sort of translates as “have a safe trip”. It has been said that Itosu thought by knowing the 5 Pin Nan kata one could be safe in most circumstances. Which leads me to think that is why he called them “Pin Nan”.
2) Actually I think the Koreans introduced THEIR version of Japanese Karate to Korea.
3) Koreans hate Japanese. Even Japanese music was illegal until just a few years ago in Korea.
4) I think it’s because many westerners want to emulate their Asian teachers…..for better or worse.

[Margaret Lo]

1)
1) Those particular kata were “invented” by Itosu, who was a student of Chinese classics and therefore must have had some knowledge of the language. One of the sayings you may be familiar with in Chinese is “Yi Lu Ping An”….. sort of translates as “have a safe trip”. It has been said that Itosu thought by knowing the 5 Pin Nan kata one could be safe in most circumstances. Which leads me to think that is why he called them “Pin Nan”.
2) Actually I think the Koreans introduced THEIR version of Japanese Karate to Korea.
3) Koreans hate Japanese. Even Japanese music was illegal until just a few years ago in Korea.
4) I think it’s because many westerners want to emulate their Asian teachers…..for better or worse.

Hello Robert been a while. Hope all is well with you. Anyhow, I understand that in S. Korea, anti-Japanese feeling is really on the wane with the younger generation. Is anti-Korean bias fading in ole Nippon?

I feel that westerners are much too eager to swallow what Asian instructors have to say, without consideration for the fact that some of our teachers are not always the best educated of people when it comes to history of their art. This is no big deal by and large, except when it sends people haring off in the wrong direction when trying to achieve a better understanding. That is a big disservice to good students.

Another problem occurs when students imitate inappropriate manners! I once had a visitor who had a really loud aggressive training manner. Every time I gave an instruction in class, this person screamed OS SENSEI!!! :eek: For a middle aged woman who was a scientist by background, this was really inappropriate. She was behaving like a teenage boy, a low classed teenage boy! Plus all the groveling towards me was also inappropriate given that we were of the same age and rank. Oh well, what can you do. :rolleyes:

M

[RRousselot]

1) Hello Robert been a while. Hope all is well with you. Anyhow, I understand that in S. Korea, anti-Japanese feeling is really on the wane with the younger generation. Is anti-Korean bias fading in ole Nippon?
2) I feel that westerners are much too eager to swallow what Asian instructors have to say, without consideration for the fact that some of our teachers are not always the best educated of people when it comes to history of their art. This is no big deal by and large, except when it sends people haring off in the wrong direction when trying to achieve a better understanding. That is a big disservice to good students.

M

Margaret,

1) “Hau jo bu jyan” ……
S. Korea still have people that remember the occupation and still can speak Japanese very well and remember “comfort women”…..so they rightfully dislike Japanese. The younger ones are kind of hit and miss. The Chinese have let their dislike for Japanese be known lately. Recently there have been demonstrations in Beijing and at the Japanese Embassy and some Dept. Stores…..funny thing is on the news it shows people destroying Japanese Shops, embassy etc and there are quite a few Chinese Soldiers and Cops just standing there watching and doing nothing.
2) I have been fortunate to have been on the inside looking out and on the outside looking in. I have seen Asian teachers laying down some think and heavy BS to westerners and playing the role of “Asian Master” to the hilt.

[Margaret Lo]

oops accidental double post trying to delete.

[Margaret Lo]

Margaret,

1) “Hau jo bu jyan” ……
S. Korea still have people that remember the occupation and still can speak Japanese very well and remember “comfort women”…..so they rightfully dislike Japanese. The younger ones are kind of hit and miss. The Chinese have let their dislike for Japanese be known lately. Recently there have been demonstrations in Beijing and at the Japanese Embassy and some Dept. Stores…..funny thing is on the news it shows people destroying Japanese Shops, embassy etc and there are quite a few Chinese Soldiers and Cops just standing there watching and doing nothing.
2) I have been fortunate to have been on the inside looking out and on the outside looking in. I have seen Asian teachers laying down some think and heavy BS to westerners and playing the role of “Asian Master” to the hilt.

I think a lot of the anti-Japanese behavior is gov't fomented but very dangerous to let the genie of rioting out the bottle. Somebody might remember their real grievance is with the present and not the past. I find this behavior hypocritical since nobody is parting with their sonys or beloved panasonic rice cookers anytime soon! :o

As to the BS I've seen some good stuff. Once a great instructor of recent memory at the end of class said: we must have the attitude of the SAMURAI and then of course we have...ZEN! Just like that :laugh: All the western students went ooooooooo! Sensei you so WISE. Meanwhile, my students who were in east asian studies and chinese/japanese art history could bearly control their laughter. Of course his crediblity was unassailable because his class was fantastic, hence we go forward willingly to embrace ignorance.

M

[kbarrett]

I really think that we're all right. we've all taken a lot of time to study the history of our MA's, but as I read the responses, I draw this final conclusion, we're all right on this subject, of who did what and when.

And again that's what is so great about a forum like this, we can all talk and shared our different kinding. That what MA's is really all about.

your in tang soo!!!

[ChristianTSD]

I was attempting to avoid a juvenile argument, as neither was likely to convince the other, however, the "facts" are far from plain and clear. Also, I was not discussing kata/hyung origin, but the method in which they are carried out, i.e. the execution of the technique. Oh, and among the international students that I work with, (I serve at a chuch in Troy, AL for foreign students) the Japanese have no problems with the Koreans, and vice versa, though they don't associate much because of the large age difference (all the Korean guys had to do that fun mandatory military service, so they are a little older gettting into college).
In Christ,
Phil Stewart

[RRousselot]

1) I was attempting to avoid a juvenile argument, as neither was likely to convince the other,
2) however, the "facts" are far from plain and clear.
3) Also, I was not discussing kata/hyung origin, but the method in which they are carried out, i.e. the execution of the technique.
4) Oh, and among the international students that I work with, (I serve at a chuch in Troy, AL for foreign students) the Japanese have no problems with the Koreans, and vice versa, though they don't associate much because of the large age difference (all the Korean guys had to do that fun mandatory military service, so they are a little older gettting into college).
In Christ,
Phil Stewart

1) I am not sure what you mean here. Who is making a juvenile argument?
2) Some facts are quite clear. For example: Karate went from Okinawa to Japan and then later to Korea. Many Koreans deny this due to several reasons….past conflicts with Japan not being the least of them.
3) That will be difficult since kata and technique are intertwined.
4) I have no doubt they had “no problems”. Japanese and Koreans don’t usually air their dirty laundry in public and will for the most part tolerate each other when they are in a foreign country. Many Japanese go to Korea every year for vacations and so on. Some Korean TV programs have been translated into Japanese, however have an average Japanese or Korean tell their families they want to marry someone from the other country (a Korean or Japanese) and the brown stuff will soon hit the fan. You have based your opinion a very small situation in a foreign country to both Koreans and Japanese. You then make the comment: “though they don't associate much because of the large age difference”. You claim this as “fact” to try and support your previous statement that they do get along they just can’t relate because of an age difference.
Sorry I don’t buy that. I base my opinion on having lived in, traveled to and observed all three countries (China, Japan, Korea) for 2 decades.
I think if you would like to keep the discussion from becoming a “juvenile argument” then making sweeping generalizations based on an infinitely small cross section of the populations from both countries living in a foreign country should not be used as a general assumption on how the two countries relate or interact.

[ChristianTSD]

1) I was speaking regarding Margaret's earlier comments
2) Great, but I was originally talking about various martial arts, not "karate" per se
3) Correction, the EXECUTION of kata and technique are intertwined, not the pattern itself,
and,
4) It was just an example, not a generalization. That would be why it was qualified at the beginning, that it was only among those I have encountered, and yes, they are in a foreign country. Geez. I can only give examples from my expereince, and having discussion with those students - but it is hardly characteristic of everyone. Oh, and the brown stuff tends to hit the fan for the Koreans I know (now notice, I am qualifying this again, NOT making a generalization....) regardless of who they may wish to marry, if the spouse-to-be is not Korean.
Welcome to the wonderful world of the internet, where everything you type is instantyl misunderstood.
In Christ,
Phil Stewart

[RRousselot]

1) I was speaking regarding Margaret's earlier comments
2) Great, but I was originally talking about various martial arts, not "karate" per se
3) Correction, the EXECUTION of kata and technique are intertwined, not the pattern itself,
and,
4) It was just an example, not a generalization. That would be why it was qualified at the beginning, that it was only among those I have encountered, and yes, they are in a foreign country. Geez. I can only give examples from my expereince, and having discussion with those students - but it is hardly characteristic of everyone. Oh, and the brown stuff tends to hit the fan for the Koreans I know (now notice, I am qualifying this again, NOT making a generalization....) regardless of who they may wish to marry, if the spouse-to-be is not Korean.
Welcome to the wonderful world of the internet, where everything you type is instantyl misunderstood.
In Christ,
Phil Stewart


1) Which part of her posts were you directing that comment at?
2) well now I am confused since the title of this thread is called "putting the "tang" back in tang soo do".....tang being the old kanji for China and a dynasty there in, and tang soo do is the Korean way to say "karate".
3) Actually you are very wrong on this. The pattern in kata plays a very important role in execution of technique and more often than not how they are interconnected with other techniques in the kata. Otherwise you could make every kata with the exact same pattern. So if you want to put the "tang" back in tang soo do that would be a good place to start.
4) I understand what you are saying just fine.

[RRousselot]

1) Ok, so Tang Soo Do is a Korean art, that is the "Way of the Chinese Hand." Our traditional hyung, however, are Japanese.

2) TSD is a front-foot fighting art. As such, it does not make sense to fight from a lunging, or a boxer's stance, nor the traditional Japanese or Okinawan fighting stances. So what stance do we fight from? Chances are, it is Hu Gul Jaseh, or Koyangi Jaseh.


1) Isn’t that what they call an oxymoron? How can it be a “Korean” art when it is basically “photocopied” from a Japanese style of Okinawa Karate. Even the name “Tang Soo Do” is the old way to write “Karate Do” using the Tang Kanji so naturally the kata in Tang Soo Do would be Japanese/Okinawan. Saying Tang Soo Do is a “Korean” art is like saying Pizza is a traditional Japanese food.
2) Anyone that thinks that so called “fighting stances” are actually used a a ready position for fighting has a lot to learn. This is something that is rather difficult to explain and understand via the internet. So called “fighting stances” are not the same as a boxers “fighting stance” or ready stance, but they are portions of stances found while executing technique. They represent either the beginning, mid-way or end stance position/stance while executing a technique. They are NOT so called “kamae” or “fighting stances” you would take as in a “ready position” for an encounter they merely represent a portion of a technique.
A good example is the Naihanchi kata. No way would anyone in their right mind take the stance done in that kata and try to fight from it. (and let me just add it does not represent fighting with your back to a wall as some westerners have so wrongly been informed) The stance represents a stance that is done in mid technique, not a “fighting stance”. Any guy that tried to use it as a “fighting stance” would soon find is nuts kicked in.
As I said above....if you want to put the "tang" back in tang soo do look at the patterns first and find out why they are just as important to kata as technique is. Everthying about kata has a purpose.

[TonyU]

A good example is the Naihanchi kata. No way would anyone in their right mind take the stance done in that kata and try to fight from it. (and let me just add it does not represent fighting with your back to a wall as some westerners have so wrongly been informed) The stance represents a stance that is done in mid technique, not a “fighting stance”. Any guy that tried to use it as a “fighting stance” would soon find is nuts kicked in.

:laugh: Really? It's funny that people actually still believe that crap.

[RRousselot]

:laugh: Really? It's funny that people actually still believe that crap.

Sadly enoguh some people still do believe it as I hear it mentioned from time to time.

[TonyU]

Sadly enoguh some people still do believe it as I hear it mentioned from time to time.
Among other common myths.

To keep the discussion on track.
Stances are meant to be transitory not static. Whether you are moving to avoid a strike or to allow you put hip (thus power) into the counter.

[EDATKD]

Forgive me if this was already mentioned, but scanning through the thread I did not see it.

My understanding is that Tang Soo Do and Kara-Te are the same word for T'ang Hand (aka China-Hand). Before 1936, Japanese calligraphy represented Karate as "Kara-te", or T'ang Dynasty Hands. Karate was The Art of Chinese Hands.

In 1936, Okinawan Masters got together to change the ideogram "Kara" to the one meaning "empty", as it has the same pronunciation.

Mike

[MasterPistella]

Funny thing about the stances being transitory. I had to spar my sa bom nim at my last test. My wife got some really great pictures of him hitting me & he is definately using horse stance, & front stance alot.

As for the Chinese influence, what about the chil sung forms? You should definately be able to see the influence there. Many of the moves are the same as in some tai chi styles. I have seen many tsd masters who when they perform, look exactly like my friend who does shotokan. When my master does it, it looks more "flowing".

Margaret, I don't think anyone is trying to deny the okinawan influence, at least I never would. we owe them too much. Sorry, but there is a great Chinese influence, I'm sorry you have not met any tsd instructors who can show it to you.

[Tang-Soo-Architect]

To the tune of 'The Candy Man'

"Who can take a Kata, and make it a Hyung?
Add some Shaolin Long-Fist so it looks good when it's done?
The Tang-Soo man can!
The Tang-Soo man can cos he sprinkles it with love and makes the techniques good."

Right I'm outa here before I get lynched from both sides.. biyeee!

[MasterPistella]

To the tune of 'The Candy Man'

"Who can take a Kata, and make it a Hyung?
Add some Shaolin Long-Fist so it looks good when it's done?
The Tang-Soo man can!
The Tang-Soo man can cos he sprinkles it with love and makes the techniques good."

OMG I love it!!! :laugh:

[Tang-Soo-Architect]

.
A good example is the Naihanchi kata. No way would anyone in their right mind take the stance done in that kata and try to fight from it. (and let me just add it does not represent fighting with your back to a wall as some westerners have so wrongly been informed) The stance represents a stance that is done in mid technique, not a “fighting stance”. Any guy that tried to use it as a “fighting stance” would soon find is nuts kicked in.

Hmm. "The primary stance in this series of kata is kiba dachi...The appearance of kata can be seen as simple, but from careful study and practice of the bunkai, it is very rich in techniques, and is seen as an effective fighting system. " Kim Mitrunen: Katas of Shorin Ryu Seibukan

Speaking from personal experiance I have used it to great effect when sparring multiple opponents, and my family jewels have always remained out of harms way.

The true origin is Chinese.

Correct me if I am wrong but were these not the first forms learnt by beginners before GM Hwang Kee added the Pyong Ahn Hyungs to TSD. And I'm sure the art was called Hwa Rang Soo Do or something similar (can't remember off the top of my head and can't find the book) before the popularisation of the name.

[Tang-Soo-Architect]

My small point is, looking for things chinese in tang so do is a useless red herring. Better to concentrate on okinawan influence if you want to understand TSD's historical influences in technique. It's not that there is no chinese influence in TSD, it;s just that the chinese influence on TSD is no greater than the chinese influence on shotokan.
M
It is there if you look hard enough. The problem is that because the beginner forms are all Karate based TSD looks like a Japanese/Okinawan copy. As you go up the ranks so more Long Fist and White crane influences can be seen. In fact some of the differentiations within the Pyung Ahn Hyungs refer back to chinese boxing techniques, such as in the double block in Pyung Ahn Sam Dan, which uses a greater circular blocking motion (as found in Wing Chun) than what is comonly seen in some styles of Karate (such as Shitoryu).

Soo Bahk Ki (Korean) and Ki Gong (Korean Tai Chi - forgive the bastardisation but it's an easy way to explain) are also influences - obviously you need to know what you are looking for and it can be hard as not all schools teach the same. At my school Ki Gong was found in some forms but not taught in itself a great deal until very recently. Now every week I get a chance to learn some basic Ki Gong.

[Yang Wei Xin]

Im throwing my vote in with margaret on this one, the hip tuck in kung fu is the same as they showed it to me in shotokan and shorin ryu. serves the same purpose. and since karate is descended from china, and tsd from karate, then calling it tang soo do is still correct.

[TEA]

Isn't Karate actually Okinawan and spread to Japan? Prior to Satsuma-han's conquest of the Ryukyus in the early 1600s, the Ryukyu kingdom was a nominal Chinese protectorate and Chinese influence was predominant. To what degree Okinawan Karate was influenced by Chinese quanfa (J = kempo) Following the Satsuma conquest, commoners (i.e. pretty much everyone) in Okinawa was prohibited from carrying weapons.

Funakoshi, Uechi Kanbun, Mabuni Kenwa, Miyagi Chojun, and Toyama Kanken were all Okinawans that moved to Japan. The the character "tang" in tangsoodo is the Korean pronunciation for the Chinese character for the T'ang dynasty, which is pronounced "kara" in Japanese. Because of the Japanese policy of cultural assimilation in the 1930s, Funakoshi changed the character to the kara that means "empty" to rid Karate of its foriegn roots. Remember, Japan was at war with China in the 1930s and looked down on the Chinese as inferior. How much pressure was put on Funakoshi to make this change or if it was purely voluntary, I have no idea. One must also keep in mind that the '30s was a very dark period in Japan when anyone seen to question the ultranationalist view was subject to assassination or imprisonment. Heck, the leading historian and constitutional law professor in the nation, who had been teacher to the emperor, was put in prison for his views of the emperor's role as a constitutional monarch (the so-called "organ of the state" theory"), so even if the change was not overtly coerced, I'm sure Funakoshi could see which way the wind was blowing.

Following WWII, the kwans of the '40s used either the tang or kong character to describe their art. In discussing this with Eric Madis and Dakin Burdick, it seems as if their was less concern amongst the Korean founders of the kwan over whether or not the tangsoodo or kongsoodo sounded Japanese in origin, and more with establishing their legitimacy and distancing themselves from the gangsters that used martial arts for less than noble purposes (two of my professors who grew up in Korea during the Colonial Period remember martial arts being commonly referred to as kkangp'ae training before the kwans were established and gained legitimacy).

One also has to keep in mind that the anti-Japanese sentiment in Korea after Liberation didn't just turn on like a light bulb. Sure, there was some animosity towards the Japanese and Koreans who collaborated, but it was the politicians like Rhee Syngman that were jockeying for position prior to the Korean War that really whipped up anti-Japanese sentiment. Rhee was especially guilty of this. Because he had spent most of the '30s and early '40s in the US and not in China with the Provisional Government or in Korea with the Indipence Movement (what little there was left by then), he had a very small base of power and had to rely on the former Korean members of the Japanese police force to gain power (with a bit of help from the US occupation forces). In order to counter the claim that he relied on collaborators (80% of government positions under Rhee were staffed by Koreans who had served in the Japanese Government General), he used anti-Japanese sentiment to make himself look more patriotic. Thats the main reason he pushed for a name change to create a unique Korean martial art - at least in name.