Women's Kiai

[Stephanie_dee]

I am trying to get my kiai sorted out, as at the moment it is non-exsitent. Having listened to other women, I am worried that it will sound.... well.... squeaky! And somewhat false.

Any tips? My sensei told me that it sound be deep and manly, but I can't seem to get it like that.... Any other women have this problem? How do you develop it....

[dao]

First take a deep breath....seriously :) .

Learning to breathe deeply is the key to kiai. Keeping it "low and manly" forces you to do this, then one day when you least expect it and aren't thinking about it you will find your own voice and it won't be squeky- but it may be high. Have you ever heard the sound in movies that tribal Arabian women make when the men are returning to camp or when they are mourning? That's how my kiai sounds.

The best way I know to learn to breath deeply is to lay flat on the floor and you can either put your arms on sides or hands on your lower adomen. And do your best to inflate your lower adomen do it is nice and round (unlike how you want to look most other times).

Also it helps to develop the muscles in your lower torso. So another trick I teach women to help them learn to breathe deeply - which is harder to explain on the net is to learn to roll you stomach like a belly dancer does. You do this by learning to isolate your upper and lower torso. You do it by emptying your lungs and pushing out your stomach, then pulling in your stomach and filling your lungs. At first it may be a bit jerky from one stage to the other but as you practice you'll be able to do a smooth roll from on stage to the other. Makes for a good party trick too :wink2: .

[Eliz]

"Deep and manly?" :laugh: Thats a riot!!!

Debra has given excellent advice on deep breathing. The yell does not come from your throat and yes, forcing lower sounds [in the beginning] will help deepen the breaths. As your breathing patterns develop, so will your kiai. Over time, it will become part of the strike/kick.

I have heard every kiai imaginable: The hick-up, the croak, the scream, a few "Yips" that end in question marks, a few more "aaaahhhhaaaaa's" and so on. I really don't know too many advanced adult woman who sound "deep and manly" though. :rolleyes:

[Erik]

Have you ever heard the sound in movies that tribal Arabian women make when the men are returning to camp or when they are mourning?
That's actually the sound of them cheering, the women yelling "hooray" or "yeee haw!"

Really spooky sounding, though, isn't it?

[dao]

That's actually the sound of them cheering, the women yelling "hooray" or "yeee haw!"

Really spooky sounding, though, isn't it?

Which is why it is a great kiai, usually stops everyone in their tracks when they hear it :eek: :D

Still can't do it at will though.

[Stephanie_dee]

Wow, thats great! Thank you! That is so helpful!

As for the rippling the belly... I can do that already!! It is my party trick! LOL! Thank you so much!

[Frances Haynes]

Another training tip is to practice voice projection exercises. eg imagine you are on one side of a wall, and that you have to make the person on the other side of the wall hear you. This requires not only projecting 'through' the wall, but 'up', 'over' and 'around'. You can start off just doing this with the ordinary voice, rather than forcing a shout. Practicing words of authority or urgency can help lay the foundations for the kiai. For example, one visualisation which many women can relate to is imagine you are on one side of the wall, and you see a child in danger or about to do something dangerous on the other side and with only your voice, you have to make them stop. So - you have to find your authoritative, commanding voice - No! Stop! Put that down! etc Then, as this process naturally strengthens your capacity, take it into kiai.

Also, using the type of deep breathing described above as the fuel for the sound, visualising the sound coming up from your hara/tantien ( or even lower) and out through a clear channel up through your belly, chest and throat, rather than meeting a type of restriction at your throat ( which is a commonly reported experience for women). Regardless of pitch - if it is totally YOU - the message comes across.

[poetic misjustice]

it doesn't have to be low and manly, mine isn't, and yes i am a man...i hope :laugh: . nah seriously if you're sensei tells you to do it low and manly then ignore him on that subject, it would sound flase if you tried, just shout as loud as you can, a good way of focusing that sound as a kiai instead a random shout that seems uncontrolled and powered simply by adrenalin is to simply shout the word "aight" just shout the best you, and if it's squeky thats no problem really, the kiai is used in combat to put off an enemy, if you try and do it low and manly then it'll sound like you're trying to intimidate them and they'll laugh.

[dao]

The point isn't to be "low and manly", the point is to use your diaphram. Being "low and manly" can help women get used to using their diaphrams. All too often I've heard women- even with a few years of experience- destroy their vocal cords because they are kiaing (sp?) with their throats and not there stomachs.

[Jeff C.]

I think that it is important to note that a kiai can be totally silent as well. The shout is NOT the kiai, but one of the possible manifestation of a kiai. "Kiai" (no coincidence that it is very similar to "aiki") is the harmonious focus/integration of "ki." Yelling is not necessary to achieve this, and can actually detract from proper focus.

Jeff Cook

[TonyU]

I think that it is important to note that a kiai can be totally silent as well. The shout is NOT the kiai, but one of the possible manifestation of a kiai. "Kiai" (no coincidence that it is very similar to "aiki") it the harmonious focus/integration of "ki." Yelling is not necessary to achieve this, and can actually detract from proper focus.

Jeff Cook
That's because the myth and fallacy that kiai is a spirit yell still prevails.

[Andrew Green]

Intent and breathing are what matters, not the superficial "How it sounds to spectators"

If those are there it will come through in the sound (to anyone that knows what to listen for) But think of your breathing, and the intent of putting everything you got into it, not about making it sound a certain way.

[Stephanie_dee]

I have started doing it in public now, and the firdt few times hurt my throat so i gathered that i was doing it wrong. Then after that it wasnt too bad, i could feel it come from my tum!

[poetic misjustice]

That's good to hear, a good loud kiai is also apparantly a sign of strong lungs which we all know is a sign of stamina.

[Jeff C.]

That's good to hear, a good loud kiai is also apparantly a sign of strong lungs which we all know is a sign of stamina.

No, actually it isn't. I know plenty of horribly out-of-shape folks with big mouths. Yet another fallacy and myth concerning kiai.

Jeff Cook

[KayJay]

I think that it is important to note that a kiai can be totally silent as well.
As it was the first day my Sensei taught us beginners our first cut with the bokken. I was just getting over being sick but still didn't have much of a voice. So my options were a high squeak or just a breath. And you can guess that that I had no desire to gain everyone's attention in the dojo. :t2:

We were taught just as DAO described, using the diaghram. Now I've got a higher yell (when I'm not concentrating) and a lower one when I do it right. But manly? I don't think that word quite describes it.


I have heard every kiai imaginable: The hick-up, the croak, the scream, a few "Yips" that end in question marks, a few more "aaaahhhhaaaaa's" and so on. I really don't know too many advanced adult woman who sound "deep and manly" though.
Geez, sounds like I'm really missing out. I haven't had the opportunity to hear any of these yet. :laugh:
But isn't the bottom line - whatever works for you? :bow:

[DragonMind]

No, actually it isn't. I know plenty of horribly out-of-shape folks with big mouths. Yet another fallacy and myth concerning kiai.

Jeff Cook
And considering that lungs are organs, not muscles. You may increase their volume and O2 capacity, but you can not make them "stronger". Again, it comes down to diaphragm control. If you want to see a real expert at volume control, watch a Regimental Sgt Major (especially a British one) call a formation to attention.

[Harlan]

It hurts my ears, to hear some kiais...knowing that some artists are damaging their vocal chords. I trained in voice (Bel Canto) when younger, and the first thing you learn...is to use the belly/diaphragm...the hara! The muscles in the back, belly, and rear 'support' the breath...and then 'throw' it...without letting it catch anywhere in the throat.

Hope this helps.

[poetic misjustice]

well if you do throw a kiai from the throat you can't get it any where near as loud as from the diaphragm, i saw a show a while ago called mind body and kick *** moves, and there's a karate master who can ring a huge bell with his kiai from almost five metres away, didn't catch his name though, and the presenter of that show was a moron, he was all about showing off.

[jailess]

And considering that lungs are organs, not muscles. You may increase their volume and O2 capacity, but you can not make them "stronger". Again, it comes down to diaphragm control. If you want to see a real expert at volume control, watch a Regimental Sgt Major (especially a British one) call a formation to attention.

Actually, you can make the lungs stronger in the sense that you can increase lung capacity. This is achieved by cardiovascular exercise, which in the long term increases the vasculature of the lungs and retrains the athlete to breathe with the lower lobes of the lung.

The reason (I believe) why a woman's Kiai is generally higher-pitched than a man's is that the female larynx (voicebox) is smaller: even when Kiai-ing from the diaphragm, the air has to go through this tight space. The resulting vibration of passing through the vocal cords (which the air still has to do) results in the sound vibrating at a higher frequency.

Also, in general women breathe using the accessory muscles more (ie the chest), and generally only use the top two lobes of the lung (there are 3 lobes in the lung). Men breathe using the diaphragm more, and usually use the bottom lobe to a greater extent.

Consequently, vocalising the Kiai may come more naturally to males than females, who have to make the change from breahting with the chest to breathing with the diaphragm and abdominal muscles. But with retraining this will become easy.

As for worried about the sound... well, if you're doing it in real life you'll have hit them at that point, so they won't be in a position to laugh, will they?

And if it makes you feel any better, my Kiai sounds like a giant saying "WHO" next to your ear. I.E. Crap. Scares white belts, though. For a few minutes...

PS Can I ask a question: Does anyone notice that their Kiai is hereditary, i.e. they Kiai like their sensei does/did?

[Jeff C.]

I just have to ask, WHY DO MANY OF YOU PERSISTENTLY INSIST ON EQUATING A KIAI WITH A YELL???

As stated previously, it is totally incorrect - it is one of the biggest and worst inaccuracies that persists in the Western interpretation of Japanese/Okinawan martial arts. Yelling does not equal kiai, and a kiai is not a yell or a scream. If your sensei tells you this, he or she is wrong, or at best only giving you a very small piece of what a kiai actually is.

To see the discussion continue under that false premise is....annoying. If you disagree with me, Barry, Tony, and others, then PLEASE tell us where WE are wrong!

Jeff Cook

[DragonMind]

I just have to ask, WHY DO MANY OF YOU PERSISTENTLY INSIST ON EQUATING A KIAI WITH A YELL???

As stated previously, it is totally incorrect - it is one of the biggest and worst inaccuracies that persists in the Western interpretation of Japanese/Okinawan martial arts. Yelling does not equal kiai, and a kiai is not a yell or a scream. If your sensei tells you this, he or she is wrong, or at best only giving you a very small piece of what a kiai actually is.

To see the discussion continue under that false premise is....annoying. If you disagree with me, Barry, Tony, and others, then PLEASE tell us where WE are wrong!

Jeff Cook
For my own part, I was merely expanding on the concept of increasing the strength of lungs, not what is or isn't a kiai. In HKD, I learned several manifestations of kiai that did not involve loud shouts but more of a vibratory action centered around the back molars. As a method of focus, I see benefit, but the whole issue of the existance or nature of ki is not something I choose to engage in.

[jailess]

Sorry, Jeff...

I just see the yell as a way of forcing the beginner to tense their abdominal muscles as they punch/kick, at the moment of impact only.

As time goes on, the comcept (in SK) of 'Fumi-Kiai' is introduced (a sort of 'hmmm!' noise made with the mouth closed that also tenses the stomach muscles).

How do you kiai? and what do you think it's function is?

[Stephanie_dee]

I have always been told that a kiai is like the soul being released through the mouth, which is why it is so important. It can throw the opponant off balance with a good kiai. I;ve been practising, and i am slightly better, but I know myself that it is just a yell at the moment. Apartt from the times when I get really angry and I when I kiai it's more of my anger being released rather than the soul... can sound cool though!

[poetic misjustice]

well my sensei explained to me that a kiai is an expulsion of ki, spiritual energy basically, not the soul, this on the street is used to send an opponent off balance, or to disrupt his guard

[Jeff C.]

From Fumio Toyoda, Aikido Today, Volume 8, No. 2, 1993:

'Beyond this initial recognition of ki is the second level of ki development, the level of kiai. Kiai to most martial artists is simply a yell given when executing a strike, or perhaps a type of breathing technique. For us, kiai refers specifically to the harmonization of physical action with ki energy. An example of this would be a dried out plant. Given water, the plant will manifest energy, grow strongly, and express its original livingness, its inherent oneness with nature. In the martial arts, our training is like the water; it helps us to manifest this same energy, and we train to express our true state and potential in oneness with energy. Kiai is seen in good, dynamic technique, in precision, good timing, and grace.'

Here's another, from an interview with K. Yoshigasaki Sensei 7.Dan (at that time)
Chief Instructor of Ki no Kenkyukai Europe:

MR: Sensei, what is kiai and how can one train kiai?
Sensei: Kiai and aiki go together. "Ai" means harmony and "ki" is something not clear. Everything can be divided into something clear and something not clear. Something clear means words, materials… Anything that can be captured by science is something clear. Anything that is difficult to capture by science, like love, harmony or beauty, is something not clear. So everything means something clear plus something not clear. And since everybody knows that which is clear we can understand everything by emphasising on ki, that is something not clear.

So aiki means that the whole entity of one person and another comes into harmony. That is aiki. Kiai means the harmony of one person as aiki is the harmony of two ore more people. Kiai is inside. Normally to have kiai is the basic "keeping one point". That means kiai. Then clearly if one has harmony in oneself, one is always strong and harmonious. Expression of that is the voice, so very often kiai is expressed in the voice. So normally when people say kiai they mean the voice that comes from the harmony of one self.

Hope this helps.

Jeff Cook

[dao]

I know that one of the reasons my techer had me shout at the begining was simply to force me to breathe. When I started I had a disturbing habit of holding my breath while exercising. Shouting previnted me from holding my breath.

I will defer to you on what a Kiai is/is not. I'm simply tired of hearing women destroy their vocal cords trying to make loud "unnatural" sounds and my previous post were aimed at helping people avoid doing that .

[jailess]

So Jeff, are you saying that you believe that Ki is an energy not currently recognised by conventional physics, and that the Kiai is the focus of that energy into the body at the time of striking?

[Jeff C.]

Jame, no, I am not saying that. I look at ki from a purely pragmatic standpoint. I think it is nothing more than an extremely efficient use of your energy (kiai) or an extremely efficient use of your energy in combination with your opponent's energy (aiki) to meet a desired endstate.

I think it can be manifested as the function of focusing energy into "one point" - one point in time, one point into the body, etc. I feel that kiai is the process of integrating energy inside of ones'self to make more efficient use of that energy - whether you are projecting energy into a target, of integrating your own internal dynamics efficiently.

One may certainly shout while doing this, but the shout is NOT "kiai."

Debra, I understood the point of your posts, and as usual I agree with you one hundred percent!

Jeff Cook

[Karen Session]

Jame, no, I am not saying that. I look at ki from a purely pragmatic standpoint. I think it is nothing more than an extremely efficient use of your energy (kiai) or an extremely efficient use of your energy in combination with your opponent's energy (aiki) to meet a desired endstate.

I think it can be manifested as the function of focusing energy into "one point" - one point in time, one point into the body, etc. I feel that kiai is the process of integrating energy inside of ones'self to make more efficient use of that energy - whether you are projecting energy into a target, of integrating your own internal dynamics efficiently.

One may certainly shout while doing this, but the shout is NOT "kiai."

Debra, I understood the point of your posts, and as usual I agree with you one hundred percent!

Jeff Cook

Sorry for my ignorance. But can you explain by what method or mechanism do you integrate 'energy inside of ones'self to make more efficient use of that energy - whether you are projecting energy into a target, of integrating your own internal dynamics efficiently' ?

Can you help me understand by what physiological method you achieve that? ie How do you teach that and how do you train for that.

If you don't mind, can you also explain in what form does this 'energy' exist?

Thanks so much.

[Karen Session]

For my own part, I was merely expanding on the concept of increasing the strength of lungs, not what is or isn't a kiai. In HKD, I learned several manifestations of kiai that did not involve loud shouts but more of a vibratory action centered around the back molars. As a method of focus, I see benefit, but the whole issue of the existance or nature of ki is not something I choose to engage in.

Excuse me Dragonmind. If your back teeth are vibrating, that must really hurt then. I don't think I would want to study your HKD. :)

[Jeff C.]

Sorry for my ignorance. But can you explain by what method or mechanism do you integrate 'energy inside of ones'self to make more efficient use of that energy - whether you are projecting energy into a target, of integrating your own internal dynamics efficiently' ?

Can you help me understand by what physiological method you achieve that? ie How do you teach that and how do you train for that.

If you don't mind, can you also explain in what form does this 'energy' exist?

Thanks so much.

Ms. Session,

The method or mechanism of integration is simply practicing any physical activity properly and incessantly (which of course engages your mind as well) until it becomes smooth and highly efficient. By energy I am referring to potential/kinetic energy, proper body mechanics, and other related things of a pragmatic nature. I am not a new-age mystical kind of guy; I do not think "ki" is some unexplainable "source" of power/energy, but rather a very efficient use of naturally-occuring energy - a natural phenomena, NOT a supernatural one.

The physiological method of harmonious energy integration is simply contracting the right muscles at the right time to achieve the desired result (breathing ALSO is driven by muscular contractions). Nothing more. But also keep in mind that you do have the ability to alter the intent of an opponent through various physical contact and non-physical-contact means, which can change or disrupt the opponent's timing and application, and thus ruin his harmonization and efficiency.

You train for this like for any physical/mental activity. Drills, forms, application. Repetition. Musicians and other athletes do exactly the same thing.

Your questions lead me to believe that you think I am putting forth a deeper mystical theory of what "ki" is. I apologize if I have erroneously done so.

Jeff Cook

[DragonMind]

Excuse me Dragonmind. If your back teeth are vibrating, that must really hurt then. I don't think I would want to study your HKD. :)
Actually, it doesn't hurt any more than humming or growling would. Both of those are vibration patterns as well.

[tkdgirlms]

From Fumio Toyoda, Aikido Today, Volume 8, No. 2, 1993:

Jeff Cook
Thanks! But please remember, different styles do it differently - you are quoting something from Aikido and some of us aren't in Aikido. We have always made a 'noise' not necessarily a yell but something that helps throw our opponent off balance as you're coming in for a strike. Sounds like, though, that everybody gets to the same point just in different ways.
Just my 2 cents worth from a newbie to this site!

kara roberts

[Webmaster]

Welcome aboard Kara.

I see that you are in Mississippi. Who do you train with (Chris Dewey?)? Likely that me and several others here know your sensei.

As far as the concept of Kiai, it really does not differ from art to art. Jujutsu and Aikido are "cousins" and both Japanese arts. As such, the idea and application of kiai is the same. With the Korean arts, it is also the same, except that you do not hear the term "aiki" being used. Rather, you would hear it as "hapki" (as in Hapkido). Anyway, the concept of Ki or Chi is pretty much the same throughout Asia. After all, each country including China have similar thought as to the nature of ki/chi.

The idea begin kiai is to focus ki/chi at a single instant. Whether you use it in conjunction with strike, the beginning of an exercise (like one-step sparring or two-person kata), or as you put it, to startle an opponent, it is all intended to do the same thing, focus ki/chi. In Japanese arts, there is an art called Kiai-jutsu, and it is reputed that masters of this art could literally paralyze an opponent into inaction. This may be what you are referring to.

Either way, be the art Aikido, Jujutsu, Karatedo, Taekwondo, Kenjutsu, etc, the idea of kiai differs little if at all.

Again, welcome!

[tkdgirlms]

Hi! As a matter of fact, I do work with Dr Dewey and have for many years now. I love having him as my sensei and would miss him terribly if I ever moved away (no current plans to do so as Starkville is where I'm from).
Ok, I think I understand the concept a bit better. Thanks!

[Webmaster]

Hi! As a matter of fact, I do work with Dr Dewey and have for many years now. I love having him as my sensei and would miss him terribly if I ever moved away (no current plans to do so as Starkville is where I'm from).
Ok, I think I understand the concept a bit better. Thanks!
So if you are Dewey Sensei's student, then you are attending the camp next month? If not, I will have Rob (Thornton) beat up on you! ;)

Glad that you understand the concept better. Jeff and I were speaking of the idea or concept of Kiai/Aiki. However the application from art to art is different. Some insist that you yell as loud as possible, some more quitely, and even some silently. Some have you yell a certain "word" or sound (like Tenshin Shin'yo Ryu Jujutsu uses a high-pitch "yip" sound), others just let out whatever sound comes natural or even just a growl like sound. However, the concept and why it is done is all the same.

Hope to see you at the camp!

[Jeff C.]

Thanks Robert.

Welcome aboard, Kara! My point is that a noise/yell is NOT the kiai, and kiai can be expressed without noise. I never said that one cannot or should not make a noise during kiai; I am only saying that the noise is NOT the kiai, in spite of the very widely spread misconception that it is.

Jeff Cook

[tkdgirlms]

I understand now what ya'll were saying - I agree with it now that I understand. Thanks for clarifying it for me! I mostly understood that the noise wasn't the kiai but I guess not fully, huh?

[Jared Sutton]

The way we execute a kiai is by breathing out and firming the abdominals. We say that this is to provide defense of an attack coming in at the same time of your attack. I believe it also helps me to firm the rest of my body as we are encouraged to give a kiai when holding boards at the point of contact.

[Jeff C.]

Jared,

Please explain to me what you mean by "give a kiai."

Thanks!

Jeff Cook

[Jared Sutton]

Jared,

Please explain to me what you mean by "give a kiai."

Thanks!

Jeff Cook

I mean execute a kiai, but I'm not sure if it could be considered such as some here have described it. We don't use voice but a sound is made when we breathe out and at the same time tighten the stomache muscles that sounds something like an old man saying,"Hit!".

[Jeff C.]

Thanks Jared. What does that action do for you? (I like to ask people to describe, in their own words, how they perceive kiai and how it fits into their strategy.)

Jeff Cook

[rgoad]

Jeff, I think I understand you on the lack need for sound. In Tai Chi there is a very quiet almost subvocal noise that occurs with the breath. Conversely, I once had a karate teacher who would have students yell 'ducks butt!' as their sound to help show that the noise is meaningless.

In Tai Chi there is a conscious focus of the ki on inhale as well as exhale. Rapid movement of the ki on a strike, for instance, may result in an audible 'Hah!' sound. The trick is to maintain this focus and move it around while remaining relaxed in the muscles and organs. If you get it right, you may eventually be able to harden or tense individual parts of the body, like the hand, during the strike while remaining relaxed in the over all posture.