View Full Version : What gun to buy?
I hope this is the right section to ask this question....
After watching the Katrina aftermath, I have been very surprised at how fast people became so violent and primal. I had never thought about getting a gun for home defense, for a number of reasons. The biggest two reasons are that I have a very young kid and live in an apartment. However, I also live in the San Francisco Bay Area, and we could have an earthquake at any time, with no warning. After seeing the lawlessness in NO, I am thinking about getting a gun, to be used only in a disaster like a massive earthquake.
I was just wondering what guns you guys would suggest. (please post a link to the gun, because names just won't do it for me) I am also thinking that I would need a trigger lock, small gun safe and an ammo safe as well. Have I left anything out? How do I find out gun classes? (walking into the police station and announcing that I want to shoot a gun just doesn't sound like the smartest thing in the world)
As far as which gun I want, I was thinking of a revolver, maybe a 45. My thinking is that a revolver takes less maintanence than an automatic and would be more likely to work if left on the shelf for years.
I do have some shooting experience though. I have shot pistols: 22s, 38s, 45s rifles: 22, 30.06, M1 Garand, blackpowder .50 and .54 caliber and a 12 guage shot gun. On a target range, with a 22 rifle, I can easily and consistantly make dime size groupings. With the M1, I can put all 8 rounds through a shot gun shell box at 40 yards. With pistols, my groupings are quarter to half dollar size.
Anyway, I would appreciate any suggestions you guys have.
Good question, Will. I'm looking into a shotgun for the exact same reason.
Cliff will say, "buy the weapon you will practice with and learn how to use carefully and correctly."
Another question I'd like to add here is about ammo types. What about ammo that won't penetrate thin apartment walls?
Tony? Dennis? Cliff? Joe?
For my purpouses, I don't care about penetrating a thin apartment wall. (that might be a very good trait in a lawless NO type of situation) I was thinking large caliber for intimidation purpouses and revolver for simplicity sake. Seems to me that all the moving parts of an automatic might not take to well to being left on the shelf for long periods of time. (If I am wrong here, please let me know)
I was also serious about taking a class in using a pistol. Where do I find out about those?
I'll call our PD this weekend. They're probably the best resource. I've been meaning to do this for a while. I'd like to read up on laws, safety, skills, and so on. It's very complicated in CA, I'm sure. TX is probably less complicated.
As for going through walls, I'd say that's a pretty disasterous thing in all cases. I'm worried about hitting a neighbor. I don't think it's likely that I'd ever know there's a Bad Guy in exactly such-and-such position just behind the stucco. That's movie stuff, I think. Better wait to see him.
There's a range in South San Francisco along 101. Don't know if they offer classes.
I do know this (or I think I know): revolvers are very reliable. Semi-automatics are not so bad, but you need to make sure they're firing the right kind of ammo for them. I had a Glock repeatedly jam when firing reloads. Jammed almost every time. I got good at clearing it, though.
Gun guys argue about caliber and ammo as much as MA guys do about MAs, so be ready for that, Will! :laugh:
I have heard that 9mm doesn't stop people very well. Many people prefer 10mm or .45.
I know the standard sidearm for the FBI is a .45 Smith and Wesson. I've fired it and it felt good, was accurate enough that my horrible shooting managed to hit the target, and it never jammed on me with the ammo we were using. Never hit anything alive with it, though (thankfully). Consequently, I wouldn't know about its stopping power.
As far as which gun I want, I was thinking of a revolver, maybe a 45. My thinking is that a revolver takes less maintanence than an automatic and would be more likely to work if left on the shelf for years.
Ok I'll start here. This is flawed thinking IMO. Would you go to a self defense course then don't practice it and hope for it to work 6 months to a year later under stress.
I would hope not. So then it's the same principle. Go out buy a gun, shoot it a couple of times (at paper) then hope that it and you can hit a person that may be trying to kill you or your family and expect to do it accurately.
Don't bother then.
You need to consistently take the gun "off the shelf", inspect it and practice with it.
You do that on a regular basis the reliability of revolver vs semi becomes a moot point then.
Find yourself a local range, join, take their safety course. Talk to all the shooters. They are all going to give you their advice (very much like here), they may even let you shoot some of their weapons. Do a little research on quality of handguns, ammo and capacity (semi vs revolver).
Once you narrow down the list see if there is someplace you can go and rent the gun and shoot it a couple of times. Make up your mind then.
But...
"buy the weapon you will practice with and learn how to use carefully and correctly."
Exactly.
Another question I'd like to add here is about ammo types. What about ammo that won't penetrate thin apartment walls?
Sorry to break it to you, but just about any ammo above a BB gun is going to penetrate the interior walls of most residential homes.
Tony, I agree with you completely, as far as practicing goes. My problem is that I shoot as much as I can. I just don't have the time to really devote to another hobby. Once I get a gun, I will make time to practice with it. But, even then, I will probably only get to shoot once or twice a month.
I did feel like you, if I can't practice with it, then why get it? That is eaxctly why it is not for home defence. My MA, and baseball bat are for home defense along with the phone. I just saw all those people being taken advantage of by the thugs in NO, and would feel pretty bad if I didn't do something to prepare for that kind of disaster. Our earthquakes here give no warning.
My feeling is, that most of the thugs running around shooting and looting, are not trained. The only other alternative I see, is practicing gun disarms in MA, and hoping they don't come in numbers carrying shotguns.... I guess I am sort of hoping that a big gun, and good stance and the right intent, could let them know that it ain't worth it, go find some easier lunch out there. If not, then at least one will have a brand new, delux airconditioning system to play around with.
Do a little research on quality of handguns, ammo and capacity (semi vs revolver).
Thats sort of what I am looking for here. Aside from Smith and Wesson, who else are good gun makes? I realize a revolver holds only 6 rounds, but I intend on those being 6 good shots, not 15 rounds spread out as fast as I can pull the trigger. Besides, as was already pointed out, if I have to shoot that fast, I won't nearly have the training required. For me, the big requirements are reliability, accuracy and availability of ammo. I would love to research your suggestions.
But, even then, I will probably only get to shoot once or twice a month.
That's pretty good right there. I hate to say it but that's better then most cops shoot.
Aside from Smith and Wesson, who else are good gun makes?
I personally don't like S&W autos, but can't go wrong with their revolvers.
I prefer 1911's and their clones in .45.
Glocks and Sigs are my other favorites.
TIRAGION
09-09-2005, 19:55
In this particular case I agree with Eric more, handguns are good for house defense, but a shotgun is better. Both for stopping power and intimidation factor (personallly I'm more concerned with first then second). And with regards to balistics I beleive they make rounds for shotgun with decreased penetration/recoil (could be wrong on that one I'm not a ballistics expert). In either case I applaud your initiative in taking steps to insure your and your families safety. Good luck with your research.
_______________________________
Alexander Rakita
You right, you can't go wrong with a shotgun, unless you have small children and need to secure them, then you sacrifice the ability of getting to them quickly in an emergency.
I've talked about this before.
I personaly own three shotguns, but are not set up for my primary defense weapons. My duty weapons are set up for that because I have them secured in a Gunvault.
I can and have accessed them in an emergency rather quickly.
Like anything it takes practice.
After living here ten years I still practice going from room to room clearing them and/or practicing different scenarios for protecting my family.
Link (http://www.gunvault.com/) to gunvault
TIRAGION
09-09-2005, 20:47
Tony, a question for you. You said thats its harder to secure a shotgun vs. gun. And that you can get to your gun quicker. Do you store your gun in that little vault you have a link to, and how fast can you get it open?
I have young kids at my house so keeping firearms secure is paramount.
Also if you know of any devices that can give you the ability to keep the shotgun secure but easily accessible can you please post a link.
Thanks
_______________________
Alexander Rakita
If you are going with a long gun get a rifle - .223. Less overpenetration problems (believe it or not) and very easy to shoot, especially at CQB range.
Tony has already covered the practice and access issues.
BTW, you should worry about overpenetrating thin apartment walls - if not for the sake of you and yours then for the sake of the family NEXT to you.
Tony-
Have you seen/tried the compact Sig P245? I want a small single stack in .45 and HK doesn't make their sub compact in that caliber.
You all are talking about getting a gun. You have to find out if you need a licens. If it is allowed to carry a concealt weapon. Not every state does allow you to have a gun.
What is if you are deep asleep and all the suddon the bad guy is standing in the front of you? I would get a dog as well. I have heard that bad people do not go that fast on houses when they do know that there is a medium size or large size of dog
Do you store your gun in that little vault you have a link to, and how fast can you get it open?
Yes I do and very quickly.
It's battery operated and has a key overide.
It has finger grooves and you can program your own set of sequence.
If someone or you forget the sequence and try to open iit ncorrectly three time, it locks it for 15 minutes and you can't open it even with the correct sequence but you can use the key.
So, that also takes practice.
I once opened it and had my gun in my hand practicaly half asleep one night when I heard gunfire in front of my house. (Police officer shooting a deer)
Tony-
Have you seen/tried the compact Sig P245? I want a small single stack in .45 and HK doesn't make their sub compact in that caliber.
I've seen it only in pictures and the website. I as of yet I have not handled one. I like it though.
Might have to look into that now that you mentioned it. :D
BTW KIT is correct about the .223 I forgot to mention that.
shooting a deer in the front of the house?? What is if a stray bullett came thrue the wall??
You all are talking about getting a gun. You have to find out if you need a licens. If it is allowed to carry a concealt weapon. Not every state does allow you to have a gun.
A purchase permit (depending on the state, if needed) is different that a carry permit. Even the states that very rarely issue carry permits (like NJ) still allows law abiding citizens to purchase a handgun and allows you to carry the weapon on your person within your own property (including businesses) without a carrying permit.
What is if you are deep asleep and all the suddon the bad guy is standing in the front of you? I would get a dog as well.
Then I would have to react differently. Different situation warrants a different tactic. Is he armed or not? It all depends.
shooting a deer in the front of the house?? What is if a stray bullett came thrue the wall??
Injured deer. We as law enforcement officers are trained to shoot injured animals.
When you shoot at an animal or anything, one of the first thing you do is to make sure of what's behind the target and beyond.
Officers just don't shhot at animals indicriminately and towards houses.
Gene Williams
09-09-2005, 21:57
The only semi-autos I like are the 1911A and clones and Beretta. I've never owned or fired a Glock, but everyone tells me they are really fine weapons. I carry a Colt DSII and load it with plus p's. The 1911A stays cocked and locked by the bed. I carry it occasionally, especially in the car. I still shoot best with it and find it utterly reliable.Those are the only two pistols I fire regularly. I go to the range on average of 2-3 times a month (it is only about 2 miles from my house). I have a Beretta 92S that I used to shoot and carry a lot, but I figured if I need 15 rounds I am either into a serious firefight or a terrible shot. So, I have it locked up now. I also have a Winchester pump shotgun with an 18 inch barrel loaded with 5 rounds of #4 buck. I have it hidden in a handy strategic location in the house. All of us in the family have code words to use in the dark or in various dangerous situations. That is to prevent me from shooting the wrong person or from being fooled in a hostage type situation. If someone is in my house illegally, shots will be fired (probably not that many, if my marksmanship holds up :D ). The dog may get them first. :D
What about rock salt rounds for shotguns? I have heard of this but don't know much about it.
The longest straight line in my apartment is only about 25' - not far. Would salt rounds or bean-bags make sense in such tight quarters? Less chance of penetrating walls yet at close range still effective?
What do you experts think about that?
Gene Williams
09-10-2005, 12:00
The problem with rock salt is that it won't kill anyone, hence it is generally used for ice cream churning and on Northern roads during winter :) Anything will penetrate an apartment wall. A shotgun with #4 buck might not be too bad if you aren't right at the wall, I suppose a 9mm with hollow points or a 38 with hollow points might be best. The LEO's will know the answer to that. I'm just guessing. If you go much lower in caliber than that you just have pop guns and can't count on stopping power.
Bad Karma
09-10-2005, 13:10
Home security is hard to beat when it comes to a shotgun...loaded with whatever you opt for (lethal/non-lethal). I think it best to mix the load up. Stun 'em to git 'em to hold still THEN let 'em have it.
Pray and spray, I always say.
I like a 357mag revolver because I can shoot some cheaper rounds and save the good stuff for less entertaining targetry.
Peace
ERIK You are not in germany or Austria where they have the solid steal brick houses.
He's in California where flimbsy and liteweight are good due to the earthquakes.
MarcoPolo
09-11-2005, 22:23
BK,
I'm with you on that one. I use a combat-handled shotgun (as you know, to keep it close) and have the "loads" mixed in it. To get upstairs where the bedrooms are, you have to climb a flight of stairs, and we have a built-in "childproof" gate for the safety of my youngest. If you *knew* it was there, you could get a good run and kick it out of the wall, but not knowing it's there (or in my case, EVEN knowing it's there) i trip over it all the time. I figure I can get at least 3 good shots off in the "gauntlet" of my staircase. I can't imagine not ending him by then. I should be able to fill that 3 foot wide space with shot.
IMHO i'm not interested in "deterring" or "stopping" anyone who comes upstairs knowing my family is there. I want them dead. (Sorry if that's insensitive or non PC) ;)
MarcoPolo
09-11-2005, 22:26
On the "intimidation" angle, I remember my dad, a retired Chief of Police, saying that
he has seen "bad dudes" stop in their tracks at the sound of a shotgun chambering
(chck-chck) ;)
So there would have to be a nice psych effect of the shotgun as well.
He's in California where flimbsy and liteweight are good due to the earthquakes.
here we have the liteweight and flimbsy ones as well. They are good for the hurricans as well. :D :laugh:
If I'd be in a country with so much armed people or in an area endangere by hurricanes or flooding or God knows what I'd personnally choose a compact shotgun like a Mossberg 590 compact and a trusty semi-auto 9mm (to hold more bullets) like the Glock 17 or more expensive but an all-around handgun: the P226. Rather cheap "solution".
An M4A1 or a CAR-15 could make a good impression as well on assaulters.
But of course I'd use it in last resort against an armed threat or a crowd. To me during disasters people should be helping eachothers not arming up to assault eachothers (I know the world isn't a pinky happy one).
Gotta agree with Nin here.
If your going to arm, a simple reliable shotgun and pistol are best bets, with a carbine of some sort being a "last resort" item.
After your comments, and after discussing this with a relative, (who shoots a LOT) this is what I am seriously considering.
http://www.firearms.smith-wesson.com/store/index.php3?cat=293600&item=831445&sw_activeTab=1
Also, I am not getting this for home defense at all. This is strictly for a situation where people go completely lawless, like they did in NO. In the event of a disaster, this gun will go in my pack, hidden. I will be hoping that everyone will be working together. As Nin points out, arming up, will not help get people to work together. However, if the situation develops into a more violent one, as NO did, the gun can come out to protect my family.
Anyway, I would like to know your thoughts on this gun for this purpous. Thanks again guys.
Gene Williams
09-12-2005, 16:05
Good choice! I have a Colt King Cobra .357 stainless with a 6" barrel.
Funny you mention the Mossberg 500 series, Sam. That's what I've been looking at - the 500, not 590, but I don't really know the difference yet.
What about a semi-automatic shotgun instead of a pump action? Any thoughts from the experts?
Looks like that will be the first one I get and train on.
The second will probably be a .45 automatic, S&W. Not sure, yet. First, though, I need to master the shotgun.
The 500 is probably the worst thing Ive ever shot. The 590 is one of the best... especially the new 590A1.
Better manufacturing and better stock features. My only real complaint with the 590A1 is the safety, but the 500 has the same flaw.
Joe, please describe more.
Dennis Monk
09-12-2005, 16:21
The 500 is probably the worst thing Ive ever shot.
Funny, you should say that. Our agency bought about 10 of these several years ago. I would sooner go to pawn shop and drop $150.00 on an old used Remington 870. I would feel safer, and I know it would pattern better. Not to mention that the slide action works much more smoothly and efficiently.
What shotgun would you suggest, then? That Remington?
Erik, I guess the easiest way to explain it is by pointing out intended uses.
The 500 was designed for hunting birds, the 590 was designed for hunting men.
On a 500, you get a bare bones basic shotgun, with cheap parts that if they break? so what! That quail gets away?
On the 590, you see the same reciever, but the rest of the parts are beefed up and strengthened because failure can have much bigger consequences. You have extra capacity, strengthend internals, and for the giggle factor, you can mount a bayonet :D The 590A1 is an even beefer version with a metal trigger guard, heavy duty ghost ring sights, and a thick walled barrel (which takes well to Vang Comping - which will tighten your pattern incredably well and reduce your recoil significantly)
Dennis Monk
09-12-2005, 16:49
Remington 870 (Slide action)
Remington 100 (semi auto)
Benelli Nova (slide action)
Bennelli M1 or M2 (semi auto) depending on budget
Ithaca M37 (slide action)
Those would be some of my pics for a shot gun.
But then, there is always the Spas 12
http://spas12.com/spas/anispas.gif
Always forgetting that Saiga 12K arnt ya?
http://club.guns.ru/images/symposium/23.jpg
http://club.guns.ru/images/symposium/18.jpg
S&W - yuck
???
This from the same guy that said this?
I personally don't like S&W autos, but can't go wrong with their revolvers.
Did I miss the sarcasm note there, or is there an issue with the S&W 686P? Everywhere I look people love them. If there is an issue, please bring it up, I'd rather find out before I buy.
???
This from the same guy that said this?
Did I miss the sarcasm note there, or is there an issue with the S&W 686P? Everywhere I look people love them. If there is an issue, please bring it up, I'd rather find out before I buy.
Sorry I'm at work on someone elses computor but still can't access the S&W site.
I saw the S&W name and I assumed it was an auto.
I just don't like or trust their autos, but I'll still stand by my statement on revolvers.
Dennis Monk
09-12-2005, 17:38
Always forgetting that Saiga 12K arnt ya?
Please forgive me. Those are fun to shoot.
I just don't like or trust their autos, but I'll still stand by my statement on revolvers.
Its a revolver.
357 Magnum
6 inch barrel
7 shot
double action
When you get a chance to look at the site, I would appreciate your opinion on this particular gun.
IMHO i'm not interested in "deterring" or "stopping" anyone who comes upstairs knowing my family is there. I want them dead. (Sorry if that's insensitive or non PC) ;)
Not insensitive, just not very wise to write on a public forum. Of course, you do live in Texas, so it probably doesn't matter. :bandit:
Here's my vote for the carbine: If things have gotten this bad, I am considering the possibility of a hostage rescue. If my wife, or child, is being held by a bad guy (not that uncommon, and possibly the reason your home is being targeted) I want to be a surgical as possible, with as little threat of overpenetration as possible, for (I hope) obvious reasons. I have done extensive training in hostage rescue shooting in live, moving, force on force encounters, for what it is worth. It is not an easy matter by any stretch, and that is with a weapon you are very familiar with operating under stress.
I know, I know, you can put slugs in a shotgun. But you'd better go with ONLY slugs, unless you have no worries of collateral hits and simply plan on clearing rooms with buckshot.
Having trained with and shot both, I found the rifle far more manueverable and far more easily handled with less training than the shotgun (which I personally never got very comfortable with). I then trained with the rifle (now sub-gun), so that is what I would go with. Understand police training with a shotgun is minimal, unless as a primary weapon for a SWAT operator.
Considering we are talking self defense purpose, my statement would be if you are not the only person in your house, and the presence of non-combatants will be possible or probable in your potential engagement, you'd better be pretty damn good with that shotgun firing on the move, highly accurate with repeated rounds, and reloading very quickly. Some people do get that good.
But many folks "shoot a lot." Shooting a lot and being trained for actual encounters are two completely different things. You'd better get to a school that offers force on force for civilians (I know I've said it before), and use the weapon that you will most likely use for defense in that course. Gabe Suarez is one such trainer that offers training to civilians, and more are seeing the light and understanding that the range isn't at all training for armed combat, any more than punching and kicking a makiwara is training for hand to hand fighting.
Its a revolver.
357 Magnum
6 inch barrel
7 shot
double action
When you get a chance to look at the site, I would appreciate your opinion on this particular gun.
I never shot anything more than a six shot revolver, but I would go for it.
I like it, but like I stated before I like their revolvers. It is very similar to the one I want except it is in .44 Magnum. :D
It has also been my experience, even in the Peoples Republic of New Jersey, purchasing a weapon somewhat cheaper than their suggested retail price.
What is also great about that particular caliber is like Tony Sims stated, you could shoot .38's though it at a considerable savings.
KIT,
Very well put.
You know I really don't enjoy these gun type of discussions. :up:
Funny you mention the Mossberg 500 series, Sam. That's what I've been looking at - the 500, not 590, but I don't really know the difference yet.
What about a semi-automatic shotgun instead of a pump action? Any thoughts from the experts?
Looks like that will be the first one I get and train on.
The second will probably be a .45 automatic, S&W. Not sure, yet. First, though, I need to master the shotgun.
I mentionned the 590 mostly because that's what I've been using in the army (especially for breaching with a few others). About the Glock I mentionned it because its quality is known worldwide. Plus I think (just guessing) it can be found more or less easily in the USA. So as Joe said a good shotgun and a semi-auto handgun are good choices or defense.
Talking from experience I'd not use a gun like a Colt Python .357 Magnum (my favourite in Elite version), or else people think very good for defense (no offence). A bolt action sniper rifle like the M24 can "impress", but an M4 can "fire faster" and can hold more bullets than an M24 to compare the two "concepts". So against a possible armed crowd trying to steal your food make your choice... About the "caliber" argument: I don't think much people are able to keep approaching you after a 9mm bullets in the chest (don't mention movies ;) )...
About the 500 serie I don't personnally know about it, just read military reviews about it saying it was a cheap and quality shotgun but with a quite weak accuracy (don't know about the "power"). So it goes in same direction as Joe, I'd not personnally buy it unless you can test it to see if it "fills your requirements" and you can get it cheap.
Talking from experience I'd not use a gun like a Colt Python .357 Magnum (my favourite in Elite version), or else people think very good for defense (no offence). A bolt action sniper rifle like the M24 can "impress", but an M4 can "fire faster" and can hold more bullets than an M24 to compare the two "concepts". So against a possible armed crowd trying to steal your food make your choice... About the "caliber" argument: I don't think much people are able to keep approaching you after a 9mm bullets in the chest (don't mention movies )...
Can you rephrase that? I am not sure I follow what you are trying to say. (I am known to be a little slow)
Dennis Monk
09-13-2005, 16:29
I think what he is saying is that although a Colt Python Elite is one of the finest examples of fit, finish and mechanical workmanship available in a revolver; it is not the one he would choose to use for home defense. (and I agree with him)
As far as the contrast between the M24 sniper rifle and the M4 variant of the AR-15 goes; I would guess that he means that while the M24 is an exceptionally acurate rifle, the M4 is more mobile, manueverable and holds a higher round capacity.
So, he is saying that he would not use the Colt Python Elite .357 for home defense? Or is he saying he would not use a .357 for home defense?
Talking from experience I'd not use a gun like a Colt Python .357 Magnum
I was trying to figure out his reason for not liking a .357 for home defense. Is his reason that an automatic 9mm holds more rounds and can shoot faster?
Dennis Monk
09-13-2005, 17:54
I may be wrong, but it is probably not the .357 caliber in question, but the fact that a Colt Python is rather heavy and is seen more as a showpiece than a duty or defense gun. Don't get me wrong, I once worked with a deputy that qualified every year with the entire snake family, King Cobra, Python and Anaconda.
Dennis translated it perfectly. William I don't think you're "slow" that's just me. I'd like to say it's because of the language but I'm not really clear in any language, I might be from another world :laugh:
Thanks Dennis for the translation by the way :)
A Colt Python Elite .357 Magnum would fit well in a shooting range for "fun" (meaning there for sport or even hunting). 9mm semi-auto handguns are "better"(hold more bullets, less recoil, better firing rate, lighter) when you want an "all around" handgun especially when talking about this topic which I think was "in case" during flooding or else attacked by one/several targets.
MarcoPolo
09-14-2005, 10:54
Here's my vote for the carbine: If things have gotten this bad, I am considering the possibility of a hostage rescue. If my wife, or child, is being held by a bad guy (not that uncommon, and possibly the reason your home is being targeted) I want to be a surgical as possible, with as little threat of overpenetration as possible, for (I hope) obvious reasons.
Great point about "precision". Hadn't really considered that. I may be in a different situation as we are all upstairs at night and the attacker has to come up a (mostly) closed, straight stairwell with me at the top.
I do see your point on a more "precise" situation as far as collateral is concerned.
kenpo123
09-19-2005, 15:46
Buying a gun isnt the anwser to a "what if scenario", terrible storm followed by primative monkeys killing and bashing peoples heads in?? Anarchy can happen anywhere at anytime for anyreason simply because we are animals, infact i see people worse then animals. What animal tourtures or kills another animal for fun?, or revenge.. ok im getting off topic. Just ask god to keep the wheather nice so that his wonderfull creations dont go nutty and shoot each other up.
Just ask god to keep the wheather nice so that his wonderfull creations dont go nutty and shoot each other up.
Personally, I'd sooner rely upon myself, my family, and my most trusted friends and neighbors, all armed, for a greater chance of survival.
Doug, I think the thread is about "which tool(s) for which kind(s) of task(s)?"
:)
Buying a gun isnt the anwser to a "what if scenario", terrible storm followed by primative monkeys killing and bashing peoples heads in?? Anarchy can happen anywhere at anytime for anyreason simply because we are animals, infact i see people worse then animals. What animal tourtures or kills another animal for fun?, or revenge.. ok im getting off topic. Just ask god to keep the wheather nice so that his wonderfull creations dont go nutty and shoot each other up.
What if, you had a family and what if you lived very near the place that could at any time be demolished by a sudden natural disaster and what if many of the people around you are involved with gangs and other crime? Do you really propose that I prepare to sit by and watch the food taken from my wife and kid? Or that I watch any of the other atrosities be committed against them? If you have any other ideas, on how to protect my family, I am all ears. The reality is that a civilized place went very uncivilized, very fast, once they were left alone. Being on a "higher moral ground" is not going to stop the armed thugs from taking the food from your baby and a lot worse from your wife. In fact, the thugs prefer you to be on that "higher moral ground" that way they are in a lot less danger of being shot themselves.
Buying a gun isnt the anwser to a "what if scenario", terrible storm followed by primative monkeys killing and bashing peoples heads in?? Anarchy can happen anywhere at anytime for anyreason simply because we are animals, infact i see people worse then animals. What animal tourtures or kills another animal for fun?, or revenge.. ok im getting off topic. Just ask god to keep the wheather nice so that his wonderfull creations dont go nutty and shoot each other up.
I'd rather be armed than unarmed in "tough" times. I'd like to say peace and discussion would be the solutions to a problem like this one, but as you said humans are animals, they fight to survive like others. It's the first "goal" of a living form: survive. Whatever it involves for a lot of people (even killing or stealing). That's why a bullet in a head can calm down those "surviving instincts".
Better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.
Nin: You are from France. Now i do have a question. Since when can you have gun's in France?? Does France has not a weapon law? Most of the european countrie's it is forebitten to have a gun.
Just asking. I'm original from germany.
TIRAGION
09-20-2005, 09:21
Just a bit to add to Tony's excellent statement:
Better to learn to use it and not needed, then needed and not know how to use it.
Guns are tools and as tools you must know how to use them properly, because when you will need them it will be a moment of enormous stress. You'll need muscle memory, since your brain will not be functioning at its best.
Hope all of you stay safe, and may you never need to use it
___________________________
Alexander Rakita
Hi Alexander: i see you still got power. How is the Tropical storm doing?? Rita. Do they know wich way the storm will go??
Nin: You are from France. Now i do have a question. Since when can you have gun's in France?? Does France has not a weapon law? Most of the european countrie's it is forebitten to have a gun.
Just asking. I'm original from germany.
Yes, laws forbid the use/owning of guns. Swiss are more "open" in this domain :)
But you can always get anything, anywhere. Guns in almost any country are easy to find. I've seen some teenagers selling Beretta 92 semi-auto pistols for about 200€ (about 165 USD), AK47s (and its Czech clones) for about same price in Paris or Marseille. It's not uncommon to see people having a gun here although it is forbiden, the most "used" are shotguns (most of time sawed off).
I even know some cops who do carry a handgun even off-duty when going out with their family.
Few years ago a farmer in the north west killed a Gendarme using an AK47 to tell you how easy it is. And most of time Police officers/Gendarmes are "underarmed". This is mainly due to weapon market in the Eastern Europe.
During a period criminals were even using RPG-7s (Anti-Tank Rocket Launchers) against banks' armoured vehicle. We do have proper "government response" to that but most of time these guys are professionnals, they do have complices and have fast vehicles so they are gone in a few minutes.
It is sad to see that guns here can be bought easily by anyone with 200-250€... But as it was said: "guns don't kill people, people kill other people WITH guns".
G Hendrix
09-20-2005, 14:15
The wisdom of gun-haters : Take guns away from law-abiding citizens and leave them to be preyed on by criminals who have all the guns they need.
It is amazing that the gun-haters never seem to be able to accept the repeatedly proven fact that gun control has NEVER EVER taken guns away from criminals. Not in the US. Not in Canada. Not in the UK. Not in Australia.
The wisdom of gun-haters : Take guns away from law-abiding citizens and leave them to be preyed on by criminals who have all the guns they need.
It is amazing that the gun-haters never seem to be able to accept the repeatedly proven fact that gun control has NEVER EVER taken guns away from criminals. Not in the US. Not in Canada. Not in the UK. Not in Australia.
I agree, gun control is useless. So is prohibiting guns. The only thing is that humans will always fight eachothers, if not with guns then with knives, bows, sticks, hands whatever. So it is "just" a question of behaviour. And concerning that I doubt much people can do anything about.
In what kind of world do we live now?? Insteaad forewards we do go backwards. back to weapons . Instead of horses we have cars. It's sad. We can not go out aymore without a gun. Its like going to war.
Not so bad, Mikki. In the "old days" people used to walk around with a "Hanger" (hanging sword), dirk, stiletto, a brace of pistols, etc., always armed in cities and on the road. There were wolves, bears, highwaymen, and so on, to deal with, and in small environments where families knew each other, there would start fueds because one member did something to the other - see Romeo and Juliet for a fictional account of this lifestyle.
Small farming villages may be a little different.
It says a lot about life now that people are not always armed and that people don't feel the need to be obvious about it if they are carrying a weapon. I have never carried a weapon (that couldn't be used as a picnic knife) and never felt the need, even while bouncing.
In most cases, the guns are for "what if it happens" scenarios, not "when it happens".
Hello Erik,
ALSo I have never carried a weapon either. I would have no idea where i could learn how to shoot.
Knifes: i have to buy some. I need some meat knifes. The steak knifes are useless. Cutting raw meat the steak knife is useless. Too skinny .
Question on you all: Wich knife has a double blade and is good for slicing meat into pieces.
Erik : when i read her ehow many people do have weapons, swords,knifes and sticks etc,etc,etc? don't you think that the * OLD TIME * is gone? They do not carry them all in ones around and show everybody. But now the law will change again on the 1. of october. Now everybody who has a gun or concieled weapon can carry them so that everybody can see it. So now we go back to the old time again.
Do you know actually what the different is between the old time and our time?? We have more medizin.
kenpo123
09-20-2005, 21:12
What if, you had a family and what if you lived very near the place that could at any time be demolished by a sudden natural disaster and what if many of the people around you are involved with gangs and other crime? Do you really propose that I prepare to sit by and watch the food taken from my wife and kid? Or that I watch any of the other atrosities be committed against them? If you have any other ideas, on how to protect my family, I am all ears. The reality is that a civilized place went very uncivilized, very fast, once they were left alone. Being on a "higher moral ground" is not going to stop the armed thugs from taking the food from your baby and a lot worse from your wife. In fact, the thugs prefer you to be on that "higher moral ground" that way they are in a lot less danger of being shot themselves.
I would move if i was in a crime ridden gang infested area! why stay? no job or friend of family member (cousins ext) would matter get the hell out of there! The natural diesater scenario i have no answers for becasue you cant control it, and if there are looters and crazies then you better be scarface or something cause your little gun isnt gona protect you against something of that magnitude. i speak from no exp and have not lived in that situation but from what i saw on tv from katrina id be preety scared.
Hi Mikki,
I was thinking of pre-1920 or so and going back through the Renaissance, middle ages, Rome, to the old Greeks, and so on.
As for knives, a double blade is not necessarily better. You should start a thread on fighting knives and the experts can educate us.
My first thought on weapons would be a spyderco-type serated with a clip that hangs out your pocket (so it's technically not concealed). The blades are nasty cutters.
Otherwise, for daily use (picnics, utility, etc.) I suggest a #8 Opinel stainless (inox) - http://www.opinel.com/FR/catalogue/index.htm.
Hi Mikki,
I was thinking of pre-1920 or so and going back through the Renaissance, middle ages, Rome, to the old Greeks, and so on.
As for knives, a double blade is not necessarily better. You should start a thread on fighting knives and the experts can educate us.
My first thought on weapons would be a spyderco-type serated with a clip that hangs out your pocket (so it's technically not concealed). The blades are nasty cutters.
Otherwise, for daily use (picnics, utility, etc.) I suggest a #8 Opinel stainless (inox) - http://www.opinel.com/FR/catalogue/index.htm.
Always got a pocket Opinel with me for small tasks like cutting wires or paper etc... :)
I got some old Laguiole as well, some people throw rare ones not even knowing what kind of knife it is. Good for others bad for them :D
I would move if i was in a crime ridden gang infested area! why stay? no job or friend of family member (cousins ext) would matter get the hell out of there! The natural diesater scenario i have no answers for becasue you cant control it, and if there are looters and crazies then you better be scarface or something cause your little gun isnt gona protect you against something of that magnitude. i speak from no exp and have not lived in that situation but from what i saw on tv from katrina id be preety scared.
Where exactly in the San Francisco Bay Area can you move completely away from crime? I am in the nicest neighborhood we can afford.
If you do some reading about what happened with Katrina, many gangs from nearby areas moved in after the hurricane to loot and do other misdeeds. Whether they are here to start with or not, they will move in to take advantage.
Also, if you will find that in the areas of most violence, the people that were not victimised were the ones with guns. Most of the time the thugs would rather go elsewhere and pick on somebody else that was not inclined to shoot them. Another interesting fact is that back in the LA riots, the stores that were not looted and burned, had their owners sitting on the roof with a gun.
The natural diesater scenario i have no answers for becasue you cant control it
I can not control the disaster, but there are things I can control. I can have a 72 hour kit ready, with food and clothes. And I can make sure that I have the necessary tools.
There is now another hurricane moving into the gulf. People are evacuating this time. They learned a lesson through other peoples suffering. I learned through Katrina and the LA riots, that people get very violent, very fast. When this happens, the people that the thugs go after all have one thing in common, no gun. All those that had guns, came out safe. You may think that your moral standards are too high to allow you to have a gun, and that is just what the thugs want. That makes you their target. How morally right are you to let a baby starve to death, because people keep taking food away from him? How morally right is it to allow people to abuse your family? How morally right is it to not take a single step to prevent those things from occuring?
Just because you have a moral problem with using a gun, doesn't mean the thugs will have any problems using one on you and your family. If it was just me that I had to worry about, I would not get a gun. But, now I have a family. I am not willing to stand by and watch such atrocities take place. I wonder, is it morally right to protect your family?
James O'Neill
09-21-2005, 13:49
I'm not much for political correctness so I appologize in advance if my somewhat sarcastic tone offends anyone...
To me, the term "MARTIAL" in Martial Art/ist is there for a reason. In Roman mythology, Mars was the God of War. That (at least to me) means that Martial Arts are at their most basic level, Arts "of War". So to me, no matter how "philosophical" you get about your style, if you are really a Martial Artist then at some level you have to be prepared to "kill people and break things" in your own defense or even that of others; maybe even in defense or support of an ideal or principal.
Let's face it, if not, you may as well be dancing. ;)
Don't get me wrong, that doesn't give you the Right allow yourself to be "mislead" about using your skills, rather it is supposed to create a greater responsibility towards the common good. That is where the whole philosophy thing has it's place IMO - not in your choice of tool. And afterall, to win without fighting is the highest expression of skill anyway right?
The gun is currently the most efficient means of personal warfare over the broadest range of possible scenarios. This has been the case for several centuries. Get over it. As the saying goes, "God didn't make men equal, Col. (Sam) Colt did". So - like them or not, a Martial Artist should at least have some familiarity with firearms.
Just like the staff, sword, knife, fist or foot, a gun is just another tool of the craft.
Never bought either from laguiole.com. I got a few old ones mostly by people selling them. I don't know how is it called in the US. Here every sunday evening there's a market outdoor people selling their old stuffs. There are some very interesting things and people to meet there. Some people sell good value stuffs for like 2€.
An uncle for example bought an old watch for about 20€ and got (after minor repair) over 250€ of it on E-Bay. Or once he got an old MAS-36 (old rifle model for current French Sniper rifles FR-F1/2 seen on "Legionnaire" starring Jean Claude Van Damme), I don't know what he did with it.
But back to Laguiole knives it's best to buy them from these "Marché aux puces". But personnally I prefer Opinel knives for a more "hevy duty" all around knife (where you can't get a KA-BAR). :)
I agree with James. Originally Martial Arts were designed for war purpose, not especially for relaxing or get friends. For that people can practise Yoga. Or if they prefere competting without the "war mind" they should try Tennis or Golf. :D
We call those "Flea Markets", Sam.
You can buy a gun at a flea market in France?!? Whoah.
We call those "Flea Markets", Sam.
You can buy a gun at a flea market in France?!? Whoah.
Not exactly :) We have "black markets" for that! But on flea markets you can build some relations, know people who sell antiques etc...
Erik: I think in germany on the fleamarket you can buy old guns. Next week i will go to the store and get my knife. I want a knife what i can slice a steak into slices for making rouladen. A normal steak knife is not helping at all.
I was just wondering what guns you guys would suggest. Sorry, I'm not going through 4 pages of back-and-forth, so a similar opinion may have alredy been put forth:
Let's see your criteria: First and foremost, reliability if left unused.
Revolvers are a natural for this, because all the parts of the gun are at rest when it's sitting (even loaded). The problem is, I don't know of any (offhand, perhaps others can suggest) that are rust-proof.
There are some automatics with high reliability, high rustproofing, and a high tolerance for abuse (the ever-present Glock comes to mind, though I've heard some good things about springfield as well).
Of course, a shotgun is an excellent weapon for that situation. Breech-loads are about as simple and error-proof as a firearm can come (unless it rusts too much), but have a limited ammunition store. Pump-actions are a bit more complex, but generally every reliable.
It's also worth mentioning, considering what you want the firearm for, that you can put all the peices near each other (perhaps even disassembled) and in a humidity-controlling strongbox. This will protect your firearm for years, and since you are not looking for "there's someone in the house" response, should meet your needs with most any weapon.
Jerry you are right with the humidity. It was raining today and after the rain it is still humid. It is worser then in a sauna.
Now i do have a question on gun's. We all watch TV. I love to watch Crime and mystery show's. Now in one show they showed us that a gun is functional in the water.Is this true or is this again Hollywood?? Hollywood does bring everything out where a normal person would shake the head. :laugh:
Depends on which ones Mikki, but some can (not putting a list here). Although not meant for underwater due to several factors including ammunition. But the Kalashnikov is a very good weapon, not really the most accurate and recoiless thing. They created a range of weapons for underwater use based on the AKs system.
Usually the more simple the system is, the more resistant it is.
Now in one show they showed us that a gun is functional in the water.Is this true or is this again Hollywood?? Hollywood does bring everything out where a normal person would shake the head. Yes. Many firearms will discharge at least once in the water. Many revolvers and modified automatics will fire repeatedly. In the cases of those that do not fire even once, it's usually the result ove overpressure caused by water resistance. The weapon may literally explode.
The concussive wave from a firearm fired underwater is often enough to cause organ damage. The short story is "Don't fire your weapon underwater".
http://www.glockfaq.com/generalinfo.htm#h2o
http://www.dlsports.com/underwater_handgun_shooting.html
Nin and Jerry: Thank you for your answers.
Jerry : The website you gave me is very interresting And then the warning lables. I 'm wondering if people really shoot their guns and pistols under water without reading the warning lable.
I 'm wondering if people really shoot their guns and pistols under water without reading the warning lable.
You're welcome Mikki. And yes there are always some knuckle heads not respecting safety rules. A good more or less "funny" example is some militia men (happens few in professionnal armies) putting their eyes in contact of the sight of an RPG-7V for example when firing. The recoil resulting into a red eye (happens as well with some sniper rifles)...
You're welcome Mikki. And yes there are always some knuckle heads not respecting safety rules. A good more or less "funny" example is some militia men (happens few in professionnal armies) putting their eyes in contact of the sight of an RPG-7V for example when firing. The recoil resulting into a red eye (happens as well with some sniper rifles)...
:laugh:
We call that getting "scoped"
:laugh:
We call that getting "scoped"
Thanks I'm adding that to my dictionary :D Did you see some of these during your carrier Tony (or even other "safety accidents")?
Thanks I'm adding that to my dictionary :D Did you see some of these during your carrier Tony (or even other "safety accidents")?
Yeap.
Let see. I've seen getting "bit" when the slide rides along the shooters web of the hand from a too high grip. You tend see that on small caliber guns in large hands.
There is also the "railroad tracks" when the slide rides along ths support thumb in an improper grip.
For knock-down power you want a large caliber round that will not exit the "target".
That way, however many foot-pounds of energy the round possesses, 100% of it will transmit to the "target". Energy expended on some object (or worse, a person) situated behind the target is energy which has no such immediate effect.
The 45 ACP is the only round specificly designed and tested for just this purpose. It's not made to kill, per se, but to make crazed (literally run 'amok') agressors fall down. To not send lead hailing off down the avenue to who knows where is also a responsible choice, in addition to a practical one, yes?
The 45 ACP is the only round specificly designed and tested for just this purpose. It's not made to kill, per se, but to make crazed (literally run 'amok') agressors fall down. That's something of a myth. At the turn of the 20th century, the US Cavalry was looking to replace the .45 colt cartridge, and didn't like the .38. They had been working with Browning on a .41, and in 1905 asked for a .45 based on the .41 design. The result was the .45 ACP.
The tendancy to not over penitrate, combined with it's high mass and relatively smooth recoil, has made the round very popular among LEO and hostage rescue teams.
You'll note that the US millitary no longer uses the round for the same reason; it's ability to penitrate light body armor (or cover) is poor. The millitary's big-caliber handgun is now the .50 (and their standard sidearm is 9mm), and LEOs have moved heavily to the .40 and 9mm caliburs. I carry a .40 myself.
On an interesting note: Not too far back, Glock introduced the .45 GAP which takes advantage of improvements in powder to offer a smaller cartrige with the same characiteristics. One of the .45s major drawbacks has always been its size, which results in a rather low magazine capacity (the 1911, the standard in .45ACP carries 7+1 rounds, compared with my .40 Glock which carries 15+1).
The 45 ACP is the only round specificly designed and tested for just this purpose. It's not made to kill, per se, but to make crazed (literally run 'amok') agressors fall down. To not send lead hailing off down the avenue to who knows where is also a responsible choice, in addition to a practical one, yes?
There's not a world between a 9mm Parabellum (469J) and a .45 ACP (500J). After two bullets in the chest with both calibers few men will be able to keep coming at you. Personnally about practical choice I'd rather choose a 9mm semi-auto handgun like the Glock 17 with a greater magazine capacity than a .45 .
I'll stick to my .45's. Thank you very much.
Tony: how many guns do you have , how many .45's?? I 'm thinking of getting a gun. I have no idea wich cal. .40 or.45 . and wich brand. I have to go to the pawn shop here. The police told me that the owner is very good in explaining and answering all concerns and question i have.
loppy,
My suggestion is to go to a firing range and rent some of the firearms that interest you. Decide what you like before you buy one.
Tony: how many guns do you have , how many .45's?? I 'm thinking of getting a gun. I have no idea wich cal. .40 or.45 . and wich brand. I have to go to the pawn shop here. The police told me that the owner is very good in explaining and answering all concerns and question i have.
Not nearly enough.
Jerry just gave you some pretty good advice. What may good for me may not be for you.
Ultimately the best weapon is the one you shoot well and accurately.
Stick to the major brands and standard calibers and you should be ok.
Did anyone try any of the Heckler & Koch USP in .45 ACP? I had some rumors that the US militaries don't really like the Mk.23 (same serie :) ) because not that "convenient".
Jerry: Thank you for the advice. I will go tomorrow to the shop and ask them where a range is. It can not be that far from here.
Tony: I have only 2 hands i could not even handle more , even if i could. Hubby wants to get a .40 cal. He is used to the gun. He is shooting on the work with it.
I know that some people do love the collect all kind of firearms. And they are very responsible . What i can not understand is that there are so many accidents with the firearms,that's not even funny anymore. And they do make the rest look bad.
Accidents with weapons always happend and will always happen. Whether it is a firearm or a bow or a knife and even a car. So as long as stupidity exists, accidents will continue to happen (and from what I see it's unlikely to happen!). :)
Nin ar eyou up again?? Wich time is it now?? 5 am??
Yes you are right.
I was yesterday by Wal mart. I could have brought a bow there. here also Where can i train with the bow??
Fjolnirsson
09-27-2005, 22:52
Erik, wab25 and Loppy,
I would like to recommend a forum to the three of you.
The High Road (http://www.thehighroad.org/)
This forum contains a wealth of information about all types of firearms, and the people are great. You will more than likely be able to find someone in your area willing to meet with you and help with selection and training.
I post there under the same screenname, though not as frequently as I used to, due to limited time.
Good Luck, with your respective firearms purchases.
Yep still up, at this post 05.55am going to sleep in a few minutes. I was out all night with some friends at a nearby city. My lady wasn't very pleased with it... She's at her best friend house, a girl working with her. In a few hours I'll see the "dragon"! :o Which me good luck!
About the bow I'm sure you can find a club to train with. But would be more for fun rather than an efficient mean for self-defense :) What you've been suggested, to go to a shooting range is so far the best idea. :wink2:
thank you for the website . now i can learn more hehehe
Wow that you go alone out with your friends and let your wife at home. That's not nice.
Bow. Yes it would make a very nice hobby to shoot them. It would be nice to have the property too. Then i could train as well.
Bow. Yes it would make a very nice hobby to shoot them. It would be nice to have the property too. Then i could train as well. Just make sure to set a good back to your targets (and / or, put the lawn attachments on the arrows), or the arrows will subduct into the foliage, and if you do manage to find them, they will likely have torn off their own fletchings.
William,
I think it is a good idea to own a firearm for protection after natural disasters. I grew up in Northwest Miami-Dade, and I went back to my parent's house for Hurricane Andrew.
The area where my parents house was located was in an area that would have been considered lower-middle class at the time, and that area was not even hit hard by the storm. However, once power was out and police resources where devoted to other areas, a general state of lawlessness ensued.
The block I lived on was one of the few in my area that had no looting at all. That also coincides with the fact that myself and several of our other good neighbors where armed and let everyone know about it. Word traveled fast that our block was armed, and I think the less moral members of our neighborhood decided to hit easier targets.
Good luck with your purchases, and I hope you never have to use them.
Respectfully,
kenpo123
10-02-2005, 17:39
Where exactly in the San Francisco Bay Area can you move completely away from crime? I am in the nicest neighborhood we can afford.
If you do some reading about what happened with Katrina, many gangs from nearby areas moved in after the hurricane to loot and do other misdeeds. Whether they are here to start with or not, they will move in to take advantage.
Also, if you will find that in the areas of most violence, the people that were not victimised were the ones with guns. Most of the time the thugs would rather go elsewhere and pick on somebody else that was not inclined to shoot them. Another interesting fact is that back in the LA riots, the stores that were not looted and burned, had their owners sitting on the roof with a gun.
I can not control the disaster, but there are things I can control. I can have a 72 hour kit ready, with food and clothes. And I can make sure that I have the necessary tools.
There is now another hurricane moving into the gulf. People are evacuating this time. They learned a lesson through other peoples suffering. I learned through Katrina and the LA riots, that people get very violent, very fast. When this happens, the people that the thugs go after all have one thing in common, no gun. All those that had guns, came out safe. You may think that your moral standards are too high to allow you to have a gun, and that is just what the thugs want. That makes you their target. How morally right are you to let a baby starve to death, because people keep taking food away from him? How morally right is it to allow people to abuse your family? How morally right is it to not take a single step to prevent those things from occuring?
Just because you have a moral problem with using a gun, doesn't mean the thugs will have any problems using one on you and your family. If it was just me that I had to worry about, I would not get a gun. But, now I have a family. I am not willing to stand by and watch such atrocities take place. I wonder, is it morally right to protect your family?
NO, i have no moral problem with using a gun i would just think in total insanity it might not protect you the way you had hoped thats all.
buying a gun because of something you saw on TV? alittle drastic dont you think. if you need to buy a gun to make you feel safe make sure you take the nessessary messures to make sure it doesnt cause more harm then good. but im a Canadian and there is a cultural difference so take all this with a grain of salt
Ryan,
You've been here long enough to be familiar with the full name rule.
When and if you are ready to comply please email the Webmaster and he'll reactivate your account.
Shotgun is the winner IMHO.
it has:
-Defensive ability
-Hunting-abled at many different levels (bird to large game)
-Easy to make rounds when the poo-really comes down (as long as you have shell, primer and powder you can use rocks, cut up nails or even rock salt for projectile).
-Being long makes it easier to aim (even when you are shaking uncontrollably.)
-Being long, heavy (if wooden stock) and durable makes it a blunt weapon.
-Looks nice in the gun cabinet.
There was a question going around if you could only have 3 firearms- what would they be? My first was a shotgun.
The other two I am still debating on....
There is another theory about which firearm is best....the answer is:
The one that is there when you need it.
As always, safety training and time on the range are a must for any new firearm.
NO, i have no moral problem with using a gun i would just think in total insanity it might not protect you the way you had hoped thats all.
It seemed to work for the Korean shop-owners during the LA riots. It's your best bet in that situation.
William,
The block I lived on was one of the few in my area that had no looting at all. That also coincides with the fact that myself and several of our other good neighbors where armed and let everyone know about it. Word traveled fast that our block was armed, and I think the less moral members of our neighborhood decided to hit easier targets.
Good luck with your purchases, and I hope you never have to use them.
Respectfully,
OUT-FREAKING-STANDING.
There was a question going around if you could only have 3 firearms- what would they be? My first was a shotgun.
The other two I am still debating on.... Considering your concern about being able to home-make ammo I would think that would be easy.
9mm pistol (most common ammo around, decent stopping power, high portability)... I'd recommend Glock for reliability and durability.
.22 carbine or rifle (high accuracy, low cost, ideal for small game, and ammo which is cheap, plentiful, small and light)
I'd bet I can simply stockpile more .22 rounds than you can make shotgun shells when the zombies take over.
There was a question going around if you could only have 3 firearms- what would they be? My first was a shotgun.
If talking about a real crisis situation I'd say these 3 affordable: a semi-auto 9mm (for close quarters and as back-up), an AK (or clone for outdoor mostly) and a sawed-off (for breaching). Easier to carry and you can cover almost all ranges in a urban zone. :)
But of course I could trade all these for an Apache fueled and supplied :) .
There was a question going around if you could only have 3 firearms- what would they be?
M4
M1A
.45 1911
Those are my choices. Got a problem with that? :)
if you could only have 3 firearms- what would they be?
This question is too hard.
But I have 2, "Top 5" lists.
Conventional Top 5 list
Savage 10FP 308
Robarm XCR 6.8
Mossburg 590A1
UMP40
CZ-75 Compact 40 OR Glock 23
Unconventional Top 5
SV-98 .308
AK-103
Saiga 12K Shotgun
Bizon SMG
Makarov
Which 3 from each list Id want.... depends entirely on WHY Id need any of them to begin with.
Ok, forced to pick only 3....
FN-FAL
Serbu Shorty 12g
CZ-75 Compact OR Glock 23
There! 3 Ya Happy!
Those are my choices. Got a problem with that? Yep. Big, heavy ammo.
Yep. Big, heavy ammo.
It only takes one.
It only takes one. LOL
I think you miss my point; but we may be looking at other concerns. SElf-defense is fine and dandy; but I'm as concerned with hunting (food and predators) as I am with defending myself (moreso in fact).
7.62 rounds are larger by far than .22 rounds. They are less common, more expensive, take up more space in storage, and are harder to carry in bulk.
Not to mention that rabbits, squirrls, gophers, armidillos, birds, etc are more common than deer and buffalo; and I don't want to imagine how little of oneof those would be left to cook and eat after a 7.62 round hit them.
Though honestly, I think I'm gonna cahnge my own choice; dropping the 9mm pistol for a 30.06 rifle. That way I have options for both big and small game.
Jerry, why not dump the 22 rifle, and switch to a Ruger 45/22 with PacLite upper and a Docter Red Dot? Itll take small game out to about 100 yards, and you can suppress them if you pays yer taxes.
You make good points, however, its not accurate to say that a large round will destroy small game because its not the size that blows apart small game, its speed. Thats why a 308 will just knock over a prarie dog, but a 223, 22-250, or 204 ruger will blow em up like they swallowed a M-80.
One round, often commented on for its ability to take both small and large game, is the .375H&H.
Maybe you need a .22 ruger, and big .375 bolt gun. Then you can take anything from chipmunks to elephant.
LOL
I think you miss my point; but we may be looking at other concerns. SElf-defense is fine and dandy; but I'm as concerned with hunting (food and predators) as I am with defending myself (moreso in fact).
Exactly why I picked those, but I understand your point.
M4 - for in close tactical situations.
M1A- For longer distances and can be used as makeshift sniper system even with iron sights.
.45/1911 - When you absolutely, positively have to stop a threat.
You know, just in case. ;)
Tony,
It's hard to disagree with the .45/1911. Although I have fallen in love with my Glock 27 in .40. My brother is on Quantico and rarely discusses anything other than the .45/1911. Must be an East Coast thing.
I have owned or been assigned variants of the M-16 from the GAU-5 to the M-4 and agree they are fun to shoot, but like the .308/7.62 round better if you can get it.
This would go along with you excellent choice of the M1 variant and simplify ammunition logistics.
What about a tactical shotgun? The Mossberg M500 Mariner in Stainless is rugged but is very shiny so I guess the base model is best.
Tony,
It's hard to disagree with the .45/1911. Although I have fallen in love with my Glock 27 in .40. My brother is on Quantico and rarely discusses anything other than the .45/1911. Must be an East Coast thing.
No it's an old love relationship since I was introduced to it in Marine Corps boot camp in '84
I also happen to own a G27, that I used to carry off duty, but I've since retired it and carry only .45's.
What about a tactical shotgun? The Mossberg M500 Mariner in Stainless is rugged but is very shiny so I guess the base model is best.
Ithaca Model 37 with a duckbill spreader. :D Oh yeah they don't issue those anymore.
All well, a good Remington 870 base, retrofitted with any tactical necessecities, would work just as well.
Remington makes very fine weapons. I have a some autoloaders that I use for upland bird, inlcuding an old 16 ga that was my father's. Very sweet. You shold be able to abuse the 870 and still shoot reliably with it.
My brother carries a tricked out Officer's model off duty that is very light and slim. I really like it but I can't have one because then he'd think he was right.
Some good points' and I fear my limited experience at game hunting is showing (I grew up on an island. I can discuss getting fish with the best of them; but admit I'm doing some inellectual conclusions witout much real hunting experience).
Thanks all :)
Some good points' and I fear my limited experience at game hunting is showing (I grew up on an island. I can discuss getting fish with the best of them; but admit I'm doing some inellectual conclusions witout much real hunting experience).
Thanks all :)
Same here. I never hunted in my life, animals that is.
For those who don't hunt:
DUDES YOU ARE TOTALLY MISSING OUT. Hunting is fun and many times, delicious.
That being said:
I believe the "settler" setup that was used during the"Manifest Destiny" years was pretty reasonable.
That was:
Shotgun
.45 cal. pistol
.45 cal. long rifle.
This way you can double up on your stock of hand and long rifle load.
I suppose .50 cal. (or the .40 cal.) could be substituted nowadays, seeing it is a larger round and takes up about as much space (not weight.)
Myself, I simply LOOOOOVE my Browning high-power. I am more accurate with it that my .45 in practical pistol situations.
.22 are a nice round and you can stockpile a buttload of those. This is especially true for hunting small game like gray squirrel- which is something settlers ate a lot of heading West. Being able to re-load, however, has many advantages and you can get twice the bang for your space requirements (in long term situations especially.)
I prefer the m-16 A-2 (AR-15), I do like the loadability of the rounds compared to the Berdan rounds that the old East Block used and are still common in Europe.
One thing that has not been touched on are mods. I can modify a M-16 to spit .22 and .223- so that is a plus. Mods for pistols are doable too.
Russ, you have had better luck than I have with getting .223 chambers to accept .22 adapters. I only used them on ranges that wanted to teach people how to aim and handle long arms and had tonnes of jams. Yuk.
Same for reloading the .223. If it is surplus 5.56 rounds then getting the primer out and a new one reseated is a pain due to the special crimp they put on it to make reliable full auto firing. Commercial is ok, but you get neck stretch on the skinny cartrige and need to file it down. Lots of work either way.
The beauty fo the .45 is there are so many loads you can create for it. You can create lots of inexpensive loads to practice, light loads, heavy loads, combat loads, etc., etc. I counted up all the combinations of bullets, cases, powder and primer and it comes to just under a gazillion.
There is one round that has not been mentioned that I have seen: .357 Mag. You can get a really good pistol and carbine combination that is good for hunting, home defense, and fun shooting. You can even run .38 cal through the pistol for range practice.
All this talk about shooting makes me gotta go smell powder. See ya.
I don't even own a single gun, however for this hypothetical I'd probably go for .357, .308 and a shotgun. Makes and models would depend on what I'd be allowed under the law more than anything. I'll have an elcan for the .308 too, please.
I believe the "settler" setup that was used during the"Manifest Destiny" years was pretty reasonable.
That was:
Shotgun
.45 cal. pistol
.45 cal. long rifle.
Usually, that set-up was like a 45 Long Colt.
Small enough to be functional in a revolver, but big enough to make as much use of the rifle platform as possible.
A modern version of this idea might be carry a Glock 22 (40s&w), and a KelTec Sub 2000.
Not only do you have interoperability of ammunition, but you can use the same pistol mags to load with. The Sub2K even has an optional spring loaded scout scope mount, so you can take maximum use of that 40. Even pick up a few of the 29rnd mags for the G22.
then carry a 22cal conversion kit for the glock...
Right To Defend
10-30-2005, 20:58
A great "HOME DEFENSE" weapon is a .38 with hollow-points or wad-cutters. This will knock just about any man off of his feet without penetrating walls.
9mm are to high velocity and will go through several walls.
Also, shotguns are great for close quarter work in many situations, but leave your weapon too exposed for most untrained shooters. Handguns are the best, espescially revolvers.
Semi-Autos give you more shots but require more maintenance to keep them in working order. If you leave the magazine loaded for extended periods of time, it weakens the springs and causes malfunctions. If they are not lubricated correctly, they can cause misfires, or jammed rounds.
Most wheel guns (revolvers) can stay loaded for years at a time, untouched, and still fire everytime.
Unless you shoot often, practice weapons retention or are ex police/military I would stick with a .38 revolver with wadcutters for home protection.
Right To Defend
10-30-2005, 21:02
Personally, I keep the following loaded and ready to go...
Springfield XD-40 (.40 cal 2 8 round mags))
S & W .357 Magnum with 6" barrell and two speed loaders
Mossburg 500 Pursuader (12 g - 8 shots)
My wife also has a Rossi .38 with wadcutters and an AMT 9mm Backup (boot gun - double action only)
Right To Defend
10-30-2005, 21:03
Sorry double post.
Again go back to my first response about keeping a handgun loaded for long periods of time without practicing.
Recipe for a disaster IMO.
topgun3442
11-07-2005, 08:21
Tony is right on the security of children(if you have them). If that is the case then you might want to change the shotgun to a rifle, maybe m14/mini 14..something like that. As far as "putting it on the shelf". Too many studies have shown that in actual gun fights your reflexes, your aim, getting tunnel vision, everything will drop down at least 30% and if you never pratice that number will be higher.
The less you pratice with your firearm, when the stress hits, the less acurate you will most likely be. I'm not saying that's always the case, sometimes you just might luck up and hit them. Just like with martial arts, if you don't practice you will be more likely to freeze up and start trying to think of what to do instead of acting. In addition that is not using good gun safety as far as cleaning and maintaining your weapon. Even if you hardly ever use it, it will still collect dust. It needs to be cleaned everytime you shoot it and if you don't probably at least once a month, to keep it in good operation and to check to see if anything has been damaged. Nothing worse than needing your firearm right then to use and you don't hear anything when you pull the trigger. Contacting the local agencies will help you out if you can not find a gun safety class on your own. Plus sometimes the agencies will put on classes for that type of thing(depends on where you are) or there is always some gun nut in every agency that usually would love to talk to people about this and to sometimes arrange private lesson times if you so desired, depending on their schedule of course.
kidhurt3
12-05-2005, 01:29
How bout' the S&W 500. Wahahaha.
I believe the "settler" setup that was used during the"Manifest Destiny" years was pretty reasonable.
That was:
Shotgun
.45 cal. pistol
.45 cal. long rifle.
Usually, that set-up was like a 45 Long Colt.
Small enough to be functional in a revolver, but big enough to make as much use of the rifle platform as possible.
Some useless trivia - The 45 Colt (later dubbed the Long Colt) was never chambered in a rifle until the later 20th century. That particular cartridge was mostly government issue, with the long gun being a different cartridge (a toned down 45-70, often in a trapdoor rifle). As Custer learned, while range on that rifle was good, rate of fire was not so good.
There are many reasons for this, mostly political but some also engineering. The rim on the 45 colt is very small, and back then the configuration was a balloon case. This would be less reliable for the extractor in the repeating rifles of the day.
People who chose to carry a repeating rifle and revolver of the same caliber usually went with the 44WCF (44-40) or the 38WCF (38-40).
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