judo against karate?

[Winston]

Greetings,

How would you’ll consider judo against karate? Which art would be more practical to learn as self-defense in a real situation? I know that it all comes done to the individual, but I just what to get some clarification as to the fine – points of the two styles.

And which art should I follow (I need to learn something that works on the streets effectively it could against one person or multiple attackers not in some tournament where you play tag :} )

Regards,
Winston

[Jeff Burger]

answered in Judo

[Ishinguy]

Well I got to admit that it has been a few years since I have been in a street brawl but trust me I had many when I was young and never once did I go to the ground, the little knowledge I had of karate at the time seemed to help me take care of myself . Usually in street /bar fights , fists and boots come swinging and i believe that Karate knowledge will take care of you better than judo. The last place you want to be in a street fight is on the floor, while you grappling one guy down there you are such an easy target for one or more of his friend to stomp on your head or such. I have held of three guys before with Karate style self defence , I can't see how Judo would allow you to do that.(imho)
If it is self defence that you are maily interested in western style Boxing is also very good as is jujitsu which I believe has grappling and throws like Judo plus strrikes and kicks as in Karate. Judo is basicaly a sport .

[wiz cool c]

I would say Judo because it is very hard to end a fight in one punch or kick.You might land one good strike.The guy takes it then grabs you and it becomes a sloppy brawl, but one well placed judo throw will end a fight plus you have locks and chokes.

[Ishinguy]

Why would you expect to end a fight in one punch ? You would generally put together a combination and I think I'd would rather get thrown than be battered !

[Jeff Burger]

Im hoping to end the fight with one shot.
You hit someone with a trained shot who isnt used to being hit and they crumble alot easier.
Strike hard strike first...and I like the sucker punch...if someone is going to make me fight Im sure going to fight dirty.

Thrown vs battered...Judo menas gentle way...but...there seem to be alot more serious injuries in Judo than Karate. its a strange dynamic that people fear doing full contact but not grappling. I think its the fear of being hit as it all happens so fast and it is painful. But the injuries are not usually a big deal...bruises and such. as where grappling the injuries are hyper extended elbows,shoulder,knees and necks.
And throws...man ooo man...i did alot of Judo when i was younger so i fall good...but you throw someone who doesnt do it instictively and they are probably going to get hurt. The ground is a weapon...you punch or kick someone that hurts...you may not be able to pick up a chunk of side walk and slam him with it...but you can do the next best thing.

I think grappling is very important...remember alot of guys wrestled in high school so guys who can grapple are out there.

I started Judo because one of our black belts got beat up by a big fat slob that decided to just rush in and take him to the ground...headlock and pound.

Granted grappling isnt the best choice against multiple attackers.


JMB

[Ishinguy]

I don't knock any art and to be truthfull I wouldn't like to get thrown. It is my opinion that there is no one superior art, every art has its pros and cons. If you can become profiecent in Karate & Judo then I think you have most of the angles covered.
Nick B

[migo]

see my response to your same post in judo

[RA Miller]

Winston-

You've posted versions of this question at least four times. Look at the responses and you will see people trying to share their experience... but it is not YOUR experience. All you can get from these questions are feelings and anecdotes.

You can't get a hard and fast answer to a style vs style question. You know what? Real fighting is so quirky and idiosyncratic and down right weird that you can't get any sure fire, 100% works-every-time advice period... and run like hell from any teacher that says you can.

Explore for yourself. Have fun. Keep your eyes open. And don't set your sights on a specific goal this early in the journey.

[newtobjj]

I have and aggressive training schedule which includes Shidokan karate(knockdown), Judo and Boxing with some Golden Glovers.

In a real brawl I wouldn't want to have to fight anyone of them! Judo guys get a grip on you and your butt is broken toast! Same is true against a bare knuckle karate guy, except the beating will be worst. A boxer well, we know that they're tough to beat.

The above examples are for real combat sports. These Martial arts or combat sports require real fighting almost on a daily basis. I have never trained in a Judo dojo and not done randori! I have never trained in a boxing gym and not sparred. I've seen some real slugfest that were supposed to be sparring sessions. Knockdown karate is just plain brutal. My point is these people train to fight for real. It doesn't matter that there are rules and that they are so called "sports"

On any given day any of the above examples could beat the other given the right circumstances. No disrespect, but the question is pointless! If you pit two trained fighter against each other who will win is never certain!

[John Frabs]

Martial arts is a private choice, if you are a big rough tough person then judo may be your choice if you are an average person then perhaps Karate is better for you. I suggest you go to several schools one of karate and one of judo try it see what works for you. Now then a third choice, Aikido it is a martial arts and a lot of throwing. A fourth choice is Jujitsu it has judo, karate and a lot of falling down. First try to remember the arts are not for fighting they teach you not to fight. Confussing yes but then I am from the old school. Lots of luck in your search. sylac2@yahoo.com

[GojuBujin]

The man makes the art, not the art makes the man. (98% of the time)

A karate ka who has a good mastery of his art and is intense and committed will take down a judo guy who is not as comitted adn well trained. LIke wise the Judo guy who has good mastery of his art well take downt he Karate guy.

I've trained in Karate 10yrs now, Kyokushin and Goju-Ryu Primarily. I have trained and train lightly in Jujutsu which Judo came from, with my Iiado Sensei. A karate ka would do well to learn some jujutsu or judo, because it will help him understand his art better and be more aware of other things. A judo guy would also be well to learn some karate so he is aware of other things.

In Goju Karate there are just more than strikes, blocks, kicking. There is grappling, sweeping, take downs, choking, wrist locks, joint locks, throws. These things are the main stay in Jujutsu and Judo.

Michael
http://www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai

[Webmaster]

Click here for your answer... (http://www.budoseek.net/temp/whyjudoisbetterthankarate.mpg)

;)

[GojuBujin]

Always remember in a confrontation, should you find your self in one. Whether you are a Karate guy, Jujutsu guy, Kung Fu guy, what ever.

The quickest/most determined/smartest guy will be the victor of the engagement.

Michael
http://www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai

funnie video though ;)

[Jeff Burger]

Lam's Equation

10 skills = 1 strength
10 strengths = 1 will


Situation in a self defense seminar...

woman ... I dont know why Im here a woman cant beat a man

me...what if he is trying to kill you or rape you

woman...read the paper woman get raped and killed everyday

me...what if is trying to rape or girl one of your daughters

woman...Id **#@!** kill him

me...how

woman...doesnt matter


Thats kind of a example of will.
Here is somethnig else to think about...what changed??? Why can we often fight for our loved ones and not ourself...answer...love...does these mean we dont love ourselves??? Maybe...people carry all kinds of baggage.
But its ap owerful thing to tap into...now i tell people to use that love in the sense of saying they are not going to let this attacker take them away from their loved ones and to see how what happens to them can effect their loved ones.

JMB

[riku]

Which is better -type questions are usually hard to answer, because there is so many variables still to consider. All right, we are now talking about some vaguely determined 'self-defense in real life situation', but that is still a huge topic. Are we talking about one against many situation or one-to-one brawling? Are some sort of street-weapons included this scenario?

And, as many has emphasized in this thread, there is always this subjective, personal point; who is in the situation. People fight, not styles or branches.

With respect,
Riku Ylönen

[Aznoral]

See if You Can find a club with both in them.

[Posiview]

Click here for your answer...

Robert, that's the funniest clip I've seen for a long time!!!

I was howling with laughter!

Thanks

Hope you don't mid if I share it?

Andy Sheader

[kempojay]

Originally posted by wiz cool c
it is very hard to end a fight in one punch or kick.

This can be true (though I have put guys down with a single shot) which is why kempo places such importance on combinations of strikes, kicks, punches, throws and locks. If an aggressor is alone, judo can be effective, but if he has even one buddy around to stomp on your head while you are trying to tie up, a judoka is toast.

I must say, however, that the last fight I was in I used a combination of several Karate strikes and a judo throw followed up with more strikes (my own primative jiujitsu, perhaps).

[Mariedke]

First, I've been fortunate never to have been in a fight. As I'm sure we're all taught, run or walk away if you can.

As to which art would be the better choice, that's a personal choice and I believe all arts have their strengths and weaknesses.

I'm a practitioner of traditional stand-up Jiu-Jitsu, and it seems to fit me best. I like that I am trained to strike effective areas on the body (Karate) but that I can throw a 220 lb person to the floor if need be (Judo).

If you can, try them both - or watch a few classes. Another suggestion is to take a self-defense course and go from there.

[Jim]

But its ap owerful thing to tap into...now i tell people to use that love in the sense of saying they are not going to let this attacker take them away from their loved ones and to see how what happens to them can effect their loved ones.

Now I love both Jeff and Rory ;)

---

I took my time reading all of the posts in this thread to see if I could find any heated disagreements showing up with people saying 'no way, my art is better than yours' but guess what - It didn't happen. just goes to show that we're all grown-ups here!

Having said that MY OPINION, because that is what this thread is about, has to do with time.

If you want a quick result I would suggest Karate-type styles, if you want a longer method I would suggest Judo.

[kempojay]

Originally posted by Jim


Now I love both Jeff and Rory ;)

---

I took my time reading all of the posts in this thread to see if I could find any heated disagreements showing up with people saying 'no way, my art is better than yours' but guess what - It didn't happen.

I didnt say my art is better than yours b/c I didnt think anyone needed reminding. :D j/k

[dougp]

I usually do not spend much time reading threads which begin asking "which is better......" or, "what is the best Martial Art", etc.
Perhaps it's because I primarily look for questions which address the skills, workout and training methods, personal progress 'reports', injury prevention, etc., and also reading about other's "internal awards" they derive from investing their time, energy, and sweat into their particular Martial "branch". I think RA Miller and Newtobjj have responded exclusively to all the "which is better" questions. Superb. Thank You.

[John Bennett]

"A karate ka would do well to learn some jujutsu or judo, because it will help him understand his art better and be more aware of other things.

A judo guy would also be well to learn some karate so he is aware of other things."

Well said.


Being well-rounded is the ticket.

I can "stand-and-trade".

I can throw someone high amplitude on their head.

I can rip out joints on the ground.

To be complete, everyone should learn all three.

[williamson]

What about weaponry? Grappling, percussion, weaponry: that's all three.

[jabonn]

I think the dicussion pertains to empty hand combat. Generally
M.A. weapons are illegal to carry on the street.

In this case Mr. Bennet is correct.

Being well-rounded is the ticket.

I can "stand-and-trade".

I can throw someone high amplitude on their head.

I can rip out joints on the ground.

To be complete, everyone should learn all three.

[Scaramouche]

Originally posted by jabonn
I think the dicussion pertains to empty hand combat. Generally
M.A. weapons are illegal to carry on the street.



In Texas this may be true. In California most folding knives are legal
to carry on the street. I usually have clipped to my pocket. Walking
sticks are legal pretty much legal anywhere. If I'm going to be on my
feet for an extended period of time, I usually have one with me.
They are also very good weapons.

I study the Filipino martial arts, and in my training these are martial arts weapons. In fact, a
wide variety of things used in everyday life are seen as perfectly good martial arts weapons.
Some of the best are definitely street legal.

[Ron Rompen]

Try to learn a little of everything....groundfighting, grappling, improvised weapons, punch-&-kick, whatever. Learn how to PROPERLY use a rifle, pistol (automatic AND revolver) and shotgun. Know which end of the knife hurts people. If you have the opportunity, watch the local SWAT team/militia/reserve unti practice.

As Heinlein said so well, specialization is for insects.

[williamson]

I can "stand-and-trade". I can throw someone high amplitude on their head. I can rip out joints on the ground. To be complete, everyone should learn all three.

That's not three, it's two. The second and third are both grappling.

Who said anything about carrying weapons typically associated with the martial arts. Sure your not going to walk around town carrying a pair of nunchaku or a bokuto. But what about umbrellas, flashlights, pens, paper clips, belts, briefcase, dog leash. Go to the grocery store, the whole place is a weapon.

[Ron Rompen]

WHAT?!?!?!?!?!

A perfect lead-in to a Monty Python sketch, and nobody took it up?


Guys, I am really REALLY disappointed in you.

:splat:

[Jim]

Some weapons can be found almost anywhere and training with weaponary is good where you can apply that training in a more practical way. What I mean is that you can train in short staff and use some of that training when using a chair/bar stool, in knife and use some with bottle and/or chain/rope and use a belt.

Using your surroundings as well as your body to defend yourself.

[jabonn]

What I mean is that you can train in short staff and use some of that training when using a chair/bar stool, in knife and use some with bottle and/or chain/rope and use a belt.
You sure this wasn't a plug for JKD Concepts?

[williamson]

Sounds like sogo bujutsu to me.

[Jim]

Sorry guys but I don't train in either of those styles but I do go out of my way to ensure that my training encompasses a lot.

[williamson]

Sogo bujutsu isn't a style.

[fightgrrl]

when you're talking Judo, you are talking weapons...the most reliable one that's always there...the ground!

[black-gi]

I am a karate guy so my answers are going to be a bit bias but I feel karate is it.... again it ALWAYS! depends on the practitioner but I have trainned a judo guy and when we sparred if I kept my distance it was fairly easy, the second I tried any inside fighting I for the most part ended up on the ground in an unfavorable position. I feel KEEPING THINGS TRADITIONAL!! martial artists do need to cross-train.












Jason Bryant

[To Dai]

fact is most of the fights your ever going to be in in your life will be in a bar, this is why i always believe, and i know theres many people who will disagree with me, that close quarters fighting is always better for real fighting and self defence because 90% or the time you honestly wouldent have the space to use a long ranged style

[roninja]

"You can't get a hard and fast answer to a style vs style question. You know what? Real fighting is so quirky and idiosyncratic and down right weird that you can't get any sure fire, 100% works-every-time advice period... and run like hell from any teacher that says you can"

that is probably the best bit of advice, on street fighting, that I've ever heard. not to mention it's sad but true hilarity. when you say you study a martil art and people want a demo so that they can prove that you suck at fighting they throw some wierd crazy punches that I've never seen until I started studying aikido. and there are some wierd punches in aikido. (i.e. uke trying to throw a punch).

[jabbathehut]

i agree with the To Dai guy close-quarters skills are important. I live in England and ive seen alot of fights -90% have been in pubs and nightclubs -the worst ive ever seen was in a pub after an England football game between two groups of stereotypical big skin head hooligan types of geezers in their 30s/40s i was just sitting down having a beer with about 5 of my mates when i saw the landlord (whos a big guy too) go flying past us stumbling back whilst being punched rapidly by a big tatooed up skinhead and before we could stand up the pub errupted into a brawl. Heres me the supposedly tough guy of our group backing my mates into the corner trying to keep out of the way -I felt responsible for their safety but also felt helpless like a dwarf amongst gaints I was just waiting for someone to swing for me, the brawl was chaos people were at out feet being battered by fists and glass astrays -it seem that the fights started on their feet with punches being thrown but almost everyone of them ended on the floor with one guy on top of the other beating the hell out of him. I realised then that Muay Thai as good as it is wouldn't have helped me should i have been drawn in to it. Grappling is definately a skill i need to learn -the limited space and chaos meant that people were falling over tables -their was no way you could have stayed on your feet in that situation -scary as hell and a totalling shattering experience in the martial arts sense. The brawl could only have lasted 10 - 15 minutes but it seemed a lot longer being trapped inside, once it was over the place was trashed all funiture was broken except the table and chairs in our corner -the police turned up about half an hour after it was over eventough the police station is only 30secs down the highstreet - and even then only two weedy looking officers showed up -think they bottled it and waited for everyone to depart -the pub wasnt a local one and found out later it had quite a rep for violence due to its cheap bear attracting rival groups from outside of the area -only good thing was that our beers survived! we all held on to them incase they were needed!

[Wado-AJ]

depends on their skill, moment and maai(distance).

[bifcake]

I study in a club that incorporates Shotokan Karate with Sosuishitsu Ryu Jujutsu. One of the drills we do is a sparring session where one person is only allowed to use striking techniques and the other only grappling techniques. It's quite an eye opener. What you realize is that if you're a grappler, you're gonna take a beating trying to get in on your opponent. IF you're a striker, once the grappler gets on you, you're toast.

So, the answer to the question of which is better karate or judo? The answer is YES.

You have to be well rounded.

[Ayla]

Lam's Equation

10 skills = 1 strength
10 strengths = 1 will


Situation in a self defense seminar...

woman ... I dont know why Im here a woman cant beat a man

me...what if he is trying to kill you or rape you

woman...read the paper woman get raped and killed everyday

me...what if is trying to rape or girl one of your daughters

woman...Id **#@!** kill him

me...how

woman...doesnt matter


Thats kind of a example of will.
Here is somethnig else to think about...what changed??? Why can we often fight for our loved ones and not ourself...answer...love...does these mean we dont love ourselves??? Maybe...people carry all kinds of baggage.
But its ap owerful thing to tap into...now i tell people to use that love in the sense of saying they are not going to let this attacker take them away from their loved ones and to see how what happens to them can effect their loved ones.

JMB
you are sexist - very bad

[Ayla]

I study Karate and Judo. I havn't been in many fights but the ones I have been in I used Karate to defend myself much more than Judo. However, you can punch/kick someone then throw them so basically both are good........

[Eliz Seuferling]

you are sexist - very bad


How is that sexist? For that matter - what is sexist? Do you even know?

[kidhurt3]

yeah Its when you......wait you said sexist

[Fu Man]

I currently study Isshin-ryu Karate and Kodokan Judo. In my opinion, with proper instruction, both are very effective systems for self-defense.

In regards as to which martial art is better, neither is better than the other. Judo is more applicable in certain situations, and conversely, Karate is more suited in others. In the end, I think it boils down to which martial art is better tailored for your innate abilities, physical charateristics and fighting style.

Ted

[Gene Williams]

Between opponents of equal skill in their respective arts, and all things being equal, if the fight stays on the feet, karate wins 90 percent of the time. If it goes to the ground, judo wins 90 percent of the time. The other 10 percent is to allow for luck or other contingencies.

[Erik]

It's all about range.

Until the grappler is in takedown range, it's the striker's game. Even Ralph Gracie got KOed by a knee while shooting a takedown in PRIDE. It can happen.

Once the grappler can grab the striker s/he is in trouble. This range (as John and Jabonn pointed out) is its own zone. Though it gets called grappling it should be referred to as the clinch-zone. It's just semantics, though. A striker would be best if s/he gets away and keeps from going to the ground. The groundfighter obviously wants to get the takedown so s/he can engage on his/her turf.

Once on the ground a striker without any sort of grappling/groundfighting skills is pretty much toast. They should have kept backing up and trading blows for distance.

If the striker has a friend or two who can and will start kicking the grappler while they are down on the ground it is a different story (engagement of multiple opponents).

I think of the two a little like archers vs. swordsmen. The archer owns the engagement until the gap is closed, then the advantage shifts dramatically.

[Gene Williams]

Pretty good, Erik. Thanks.

[RickMatz]

Back before Mixed Martial Arts was cool, some notable people studied both Judo and Karate: Jon Bluming, Don Draeger, and so on.

[Gene Williams]

We've all dabbled a bit in other arts. It is difficult to master more than one, but I think you need exposure to some different approaches. Jujutsu is where I've dabbled most, and iaido (which isn't really a combat art).

[G Hendrix]

...Once on the ground a striker without any sort of grappling/groundfighting skills is pretty much toast. ......

May be true in sports competition, but hardly the case when it is fighting for real.

[Cliff Hargrave]

May be true in sports competition, but hardly the case when it is fighting for real.

How so? Does a striker magically have ground skills once on the street?

[Erik]

I don't think he understands how weak striking from the ground can be, how easy it is to defend against compared with while standing, nor how difficult it is to get and retain dominant position, nor why that matters.

[Aaron T Fields]

The best for a street fight is to run away and then hit the person with your car when they are least expecting it. THis is one of many methods that take very little effort and very little work or risk. (Before any of you warriors respond, my tounge is in my cheek. Well kind of :wink2: )

Aaron Fields
www.seattle-jujutsu.org

[G Hendrix]

How so? Does a striker magically have ground skills once on the street?
What makes you think ground skills are only limited to grappling skills?

[G Hendrix]

I don't think he understands how weak striking from the ground can be, how easy it is to defend against compared with while standing, nor how difficult it is to get and retain dominant position, nor why that matters.
I don't think you understand what assaultives is about.

[Erik]

I've been a bouncer in several countries and for half a decade.

I believe I have a very sound idea about what assaultives is about.

Been there, done that, seen even more.

[Gene Williams]

I guess in a San Francisco bar you separate the men from the boys...with a crow bar :D

[Erik]

SF can be pretty rough at times, but I worked in Palo Alto right by East Palo Alto (a totally different universe - ask Debra), San Luis Obispo, and in Austria, the country of Arnold Schwarzenneger and Hitler.

[CEB]

'Half a decade' sounds a lot better than 5 years. :laugh:

It has a nicer ring to it.

[Cliff Hargrave]

What makes you think ground skills are only limited to grappling skills?

Sorry but you are going to have to explain it a little better because I am not following you.

[G Hendrix]

I've been a bouncer in several countries and for half a decade.

I believe I have a very sound idea about what assaultives is about.

Been there, done that, seen even more.

In that case, why don't you teach, enlighten, share with us what this assaultives that your 'half a decade' of bouncing has enable you to learn? We would be so honored.

There are very few instructors that teach assaultives. Everybody pretty much knows what everyone else teaches. The assaultives community would love to know what you got there.

[G Hendrix]

Sorry but you are going to have to explain it a little better because I am not following you.


Ground fighting skills are not limited to just grappling, unless when you are fighting under sports rules. Since we are talking about karate, I'll just use the Karate technique for illustration purpose. May be in the McDojo of the west, where karate is about punching/kicking air and doing cool looking kata, that the karateka have no real power. True karate training, such as in Gojo Ryu and Pangainoon for examples, involves hardcore conditioning. One of which is the grip conditioning. Well trained karateka have a hand grip so tough and strong that they can rip your ears off, crush your windpipe, with little effort. They train to grip and rip various parts of your body and inflict tremendous tissue damage, let along excruciating pain. This is just one trick. There are plenty more. Don't underestimate a well trained karate-ka. Just because they can't strike or kick effectively, does not mean they are toothless.

[G Hendrix]

I would like to add that, the notion that judo practitioners are helpless when they are within striking range, is simply not true. I have witnessed some of the most effective defence and counter techniques against punches/kicks both within and beyond striking range, taught by judo experts. They can neutralize and/or evade your strikes, and throw you like a rag doll.

It is also my opinion that people who equate grappling art to ground fighting, are guilty of oversimplification.

[Cliff Hargrave]

Ground fighting skills are not limited to just grappling, unless when you are fighting under sports rules. Since we are talking about karate, I'll just use the Karate technique for illustration purpose. May be in the McDojo of the west, where karate is about punching/kicking air and doing cool looking kata, that the karateka have no real power. True karate training, such as in Gojo Ryu and Pangainoon for examples, involves hardcore conditioning. One of which is the grip conditioning. Well trained karateka have a hand grip so tough and strong that they can rip your ears off, crush your windpipe, with little effort. They train to grip and rip various parts of your body and inflict tremendous tissue damage, let along excruciating pain. This is just one trick. There are plenty more. Don't underestimate a well trained karate-ka. Just because they can't strike or kick effectively, does not mean they are toothless.

Well I rate that right up there with the groin grabbers and eye pokers. I would love for someone to grab my ear or windpipe while I am pounding them in the face from the mount, it just sets up the arm bar easier.

Also, your remarks to Eric, and to just about everyone on every thread you are on, are sarcastic and uncalled for. You need to tone it down and maybe even post something like who you are, where you train, in what, etc. to give some semblance of credibility to your posts. Right now you just look like someone that wants to argue with everyone.

[Gene Williams]

I think that all of us in karate, aikido, boxing, etc., or arts that train primarily on the feet need to be honest with ourselves. It is one thing to be taken down in the street by a punk or thug who just desperately or reflexively tackles you. In that situation, sure, our training, discipline, and technique will likely allow us to find an opportunity for a punch, a choke or an arm lock, an eye gouge, or we may get lucky and nail him on the way in. It is quite another thing to be taken down by someone who is trained and knows what they are doing. I have worked with a couple of friends who are judo guys and one BJJ guy who had fought competition, and it is an eye opener. They know how to protect themselves and the bastards can counter almost anything you do. If you are taken down in the street by a competition quality grappler, you are going to have a long afternoon (or maybe a short one). Of course, anyone can get lucky and there are many contingencies that affect both of you in a fight. You just have to train to be ready for them. Karate guys should at the very least learn how to defend the mount (the most likely thing you would have to do against an untrained person), a good sprawl, and a couple of choke counters. Of course, a grappler who has to stay on his feet with a karate guy will get pounded.

[TonyU]

Nicely put Gene,
I always said Shorin Ryu has always done well for me on the street, but I was afraid one day I would come across a grappler in my profession.
Now I'm hooked and coincidently the class is run very much like the karate of yesteryear hard and with the traditions of Judo.
That only thing would add Gene, it to also learn some escapes, not just from the mount, but from the guard as well.

[moogong]

I think every striker needs to take some basic judo or bjj classes. Before I started judo, I had been primarily a stand up fighter...which created a false sense of security. The first time a judo classmate invaded my space, I freaked out. The feel of his body pressed on mine struggling threw me out of my element. Looking back, that was one of the most valuable lessons in my martial arts career thus far. BJJ, on the other hand, has made me wish somebody would invade my personal space. :D

[Gene Williams]

Yep. Once you realize that the ground can be your friend, it is much easier. I still have a lot of work to do, and would still prefer to remain on my feet, but if taken down it wouldn't be the end of the fight. I still feel that in the street you are likely to face more than one attacker and I am not sure grappling is the best approach there. If you could take one down and put a quick joint lock or choke on him and let the others hear him gurgling and dying or hear his joints cracking and him screaming, they might leave. Probably they would just hit you in the head with something. Plus, on your feet, you can run and maneuver.

[Jeff C.]

Gene, I am gonna definitely take you up on what we were talking about. I think you can help me out tremendously with my rusty karate skills; hopefully I can give you some good stuff to make it worth your time.

Let me know if you would like me to start emailing you some short little .wav files of some ground drills/techniques.

I think it is absolutely fantastic that a crotchety old traditionalist like you is doing the VERY traditional thing of investigating other methods. Good for you brother! You definitely have an open mind.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[CEB]

I played Judo for a long time. I was into Judo long before I took my first Goju Ryu lesson. FWIW we teach osaekomi waza to our Goju people. We don't work it very often in the karate dojo. Maybe 3 or 4 times a year. Not enough to get competent but enough for deshi to learn that their karate goes to hell real fast when you have 200 pounds of man laying on you. Our old Goju dojo was loaded with cops. We had representatives form the City, County and State Police. I learned so much playing with those guys. I had favorite methods for controlling people on the mat. These guys helped me realize things I had never thought through. KamiShiho Gatame (69) is a control I like. I get a lot of bang for the amount of energy expended. I never realized how vunerable I was to double ear slaps. It will come from behind my peripheral vision. I can't see it coming and it is hard to control both hands from the hold. I better quit typing or this could get real long real fast.

I will say one thing about Judo, an art I love, an art that gave me so much. It is not perfect. The one bad thing it did is condition me to give up my back when the heat gets high when on the ground. I thought maybe it was just because I am stupid but, I am not alone. I have a 1st cousin, my mom and his mom were sisters. His name is Jim Hughes, he is a student of Royce Gracie some of east coast guys may have heard of him. One of his student was a very good JudoKa. A Polish Judo champion and he does the same thing. He gives up the back. Jimmy can't seem to break him of it. I don't feel so bad anymore. Damn habits forged through competition & randori are harder than heck to break. I'll bow out now and let you guys get back to your debating.

Gambatte Kudasai

[TonyU]

Who's debating? :)

[Gene Williams]

Gene, I am gonna definitely take you up on what we were talking about. I think you can help me out tremendously with my rusty karate skills; hopefully I can give you some good stuff to make it worth your time.

Let me know if you would like me to start emailing you some short little .wav files of some ground drills/techniques.

I think it is absolutely fantastic that a crotchety old traditionalist like you is doing the VERY traditional thing of investigating other methods. Good for you brother! You definitely have an open mind.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

Yes, I would like to have some drills to do. Email me. Thanks.

[TIRAGION]

Neither one is better, all depends on your fighting style. I started out in Shotokan Karate, learned alot of good basics which are still useful to me at this day, but I personally prefer grappling range. But if I am sparring in MMA format which closest resembles a fight sitution I always set up my oponent up with a low kick or a punch before I close the gap. Otherwise your face will be used for target practice and I like my face lol.
If you want solid skills pick up some grappling skills Judo/bjj/Sambo/Freestyle no difference thay all good. Trough in some Tai Boxing/Boxing (best) or a Kempo/Karate for striking. Once you decent in those add some weapon forms Kali/bo or Jojuitsu.
Just enjoy the learning which art is really secondary

[poetic misjustice]

well what i'd do in your situation is try both for a month or two and see which one you prefer in the dojo, or if you like both try to style branch a bit, you know mix judo with karate and see how that turns, i've always wondered what judo would be like if you put a few more blows and a couple less throws,it'd be a more all round fighting style then

[Erik]

It would be good to remember that Judo started with the intention of being a mix of PE class, competitive sport, and personal refinement with fighting as a secondary goal.

It was deliberately made safer than the other contemporary jiu jitsu styles so that people could practice it at or near full speed.

It's nice and effective if the Judo athlete can get past someone's effective striking but that's quite an if.

[Abbax8]

It would be good to remember that Judo started with the intention of being a mix of PE class, competitive sport, and personal refinement with fighting as a secondary goal.

It was deliberately made safer than the other contemporary jiu jitsu styles so that people could practice it at or near full speed.

It's nice and effective if the Judo athlete can get past someone's effective striking but that's quite an if.

It would depend on how effective the strike is. It is rare to end a fight with one punch or kick. Also, what I notice in discussions like this, is that it is rarely mentioned how much striking in judo there is. Some examples, a hard foot sweep on a planted foot, a high and hard Harai-Goshi, a Tenri wrist to obtain kuzushi, a hard hip throw that fails but contacts the abs, grip fighting, not to mention what happens on the ground. Judo is a non striking activity like pro basketball is non contact sport, RIGHT!!!

Peace

Dennis

[Gene Williams]

Ah, Dennis, from the old school! Love it!

[Erik]

Dennis - what I was trying to get at was closing to clinch range with someone who can deliver a lot of punishment on the way in.

Striking, not just one strike. At least, that's what I was trying to say.

Once grabbed, the game shifts toward the Judoka's favor but that range between too far to touch through kicking, hitting, elbowing/kneeing, and then getting a good judo-grip, it's where the karate guys get their golden chance to punish us grapplers.

[CEB]

The funny thing is my guys are karate players and they prefer the 'clinch' range. We work what could be classified as 3 types of ranges but we like the closest one.

Haven't really followed the thread very close but, I did just skim through it and one thing Gabe touched one that was kind of passed over how we train the grip. We train the grip a lot. We work the jars, ishi sashi, chi ishi. All our upper body training implements work the grip. Our karate doesn't really get going until we can get our hands on somebody. A BIG chunk (maybe 90%) of our kumite is worked from obtaining the grip. Gripping is used to maximize the effectivness of the strikes. A lot of stand up grappling in the system and this is combined with the close-in strikes.

That said the ryuha doesn't do much of anything to work from off the ground. Position always matters That is why I like to work the guys from the ground once in a while. It teaches them they had best do everything they can to stay on their feet.

The way we train to enter as Karate-ka is not much different from the way we trained to enter as Judo-ka.

Oh well have a good week.

PS- FWIW - My Judo sensei taught us strikes. We didn't work daily but we did train it from time to time. We also trained without uwagi from time to time. I thought this was pretty typical of old Judo. Maybe it was not. Isn't the first technique in Nage no Kata is a strike?

I always thought of my teacher as old school Judo. Maybe he was a progressive. I never thought he meant to be. I just figured everyone else changed geared more towards Shiai. We always did well at Shiai though. His teacher was Wey Seng Kim.

I'll leave you guys alone now got to go to the dojo.

[poetic misjustice]

well my karate schooling didn't really go too much into grips (yet i do have quite a bit to learn) just your basic self defence techniques e.g holds on wrists collars etc. but my kung fu schooling went alot more in depth, it even went into possible counter measures for different grapples, eg. putting a fist into the spine if they intend on throwig you over the shoulder, making them lose leverage, one of my personal favs, also the odd punch in the right place can really make a grappler suffer and lose his grip, i don't really rate judo too high as a martial art, more of an idea, an idea can be changed, a fighting structure is a bit more difficult

[Gene Williams]

well my karate schooling didn't really go too much into grips (yet i do have quite a bit to learn) just your basic self defence techniques e.g holds on wrists collars etc. but my kung fu schooling went alot more in depth, it even went into possible counter measures for different grapples, eg. putting a fist into the spine if they intend on throwig you over the shoulder, making them lose leverage, one of my personal favs, also the odd punch in the right place can really make a grappler suffer and lose his grip, i don't really rate judo too high as a martial art, more of an idea, an idea can be changed, a fighting structure is a bit more difficult

Judo as an idea? Have you ever trained in a judo class? Watched one? Those are some damned rough ideas :D

[Erik]

Question - many MAs have a lot of techniques for leverages (joint locks, joint twists, whatever you want to call it) when grabbed by the wrist or collar. Aikido is quite well known for this.

What do you think of applying these against a Judoka?

When I do mixed randori it's risky to do these techniques so we don't push them too hard. Consequently, I am not satisfied that I really understand how well these would work.

Remember, I mean against a judoka who is actively working his judo-grip, pushing, pulling, maneuvering, and countering.

[Peter Rehse]

Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. The more settled you are into Judo mode the tougher it becomes.

[Gene Williams]

Question - many MAs have a lot of techniques for leverages (joint locks, joint twists, whatever you want to call it) when grabbed by the wrist or collar. Aikido is quite well known for this.

What do you think of applying these against a Judoka?

When I do mixed randori it's risky to do these techniques so we don't push them too hard. Consequently, I am not satisfied that I really understand how well these would work.

Remember, I mean against a judoka who is actively working his judo-grip, pushing, pulling, maneuvering, and countering.

If you are hooked up with a judo guy in their classic lapel grip and stepping, etc. You would have to kick to set them up for karate/jujutsu type joint techniques. If you release to try a joint technique, WHAM, you're gone to the mat where the judo guy will beat you. If you are in the street where you can punch, well, you are better off (if you are karateka). Most jujutsu techniques are applied after strikes or kicks anyway, or as counters after someone has grabbed you. People aren't just going to stand there while you lock their joints. Judo trains you to work for the joint lock or choke during grappling. I like that. Karate guys have to hit and kick.

[Abbax8]

Both styles are good. Also the fact is judo guys can kick and punch and karate guys can throw and lock. It comes down to how you train and how intense you train. A judo guy who does only kata would be less effective than a judoka who does both randori and kata. A karateka whose practice never allows contact or grappling is in worse shape than one who mixes it up.

Peace

Dennis

[poetic misjustice]

yeah i've done a couple of judo lessons and watched a few senior lessons with the higher grades and i just thought it could be improved by intergrating different styles, as a grappling art i'd much rather aikido it's alot more composed, but then again a judoka doesn't stand a chance of getting a karateka to the ground if he can't get close, the problem is taller karatekas, long kicks to keep the judoka at range, the judoka will have to get past the fast kicks of say...a wado-ryu student to grapple

[Gene Williams]

Aikido is not a grappling art. All karate ryu have "fast kicks" not just Wado. You need to RUN, not walk, to a martial arts school somewhere...I mean HURRY...knock people down getting there, and don't even think about leaving for 3 years. :)

[poetic misjustice]

run? nah far too slow, drive, even if you can't, get you're untraining prosterior into a dojo quick, 3years? awful quick insn't it? i say ten