Catch Wrestling

[kenpo123]

You were right tony! Those tapes are really well done, I learned two things just off the short clips they showed! Witch dvd is best to begin my training? There are so many and i just dont have the cash on hand to get them all at the moment.

[Bad Karma]

I strongly recommend whatever package deal you can afford that has the LAOH (Lost Art of Hooking) series. The LAOH series is the definitely the one you want above the rest, but a package deal is just a better bargain.

Peace

[Jeff C.]

Tony, I am intrigued. But before I spend my money on training material, what can I get out of catch that I cannot get out of BJJ or judo?

Jeff Cook

[Andrew Green]

A different perspective on things, catch is rather different then BJJ and it's nice to see a different approach to the same goal once and a while.

[Jeff C.]

Thanks, Andrew. I figured the perspective might be different. What is different about the perspective?

Jeff Cook

[Bad Karma]

Submission, regardless of position. This is misleading to what's implied, but you can't go wrong. Check 'em out!

EDIT: I misspoke. I believe it would be better to say submission over position. Now, I can go back to my hummus and sushi rolls w/wasabi (sp?). ;)

Peace

[mateo]

JeffC,

Try this link to video clips to get an idea of Tony Cecchine's approach.

http://www.groundfighter.com/details/prodid/192.html

If this was posted already please forgive me.

I watched Cecchine and Matt Furey and found that their tapes had a lot of stuff that makes sense even if I didn't like their manner of selling their arts (I'm thinking primarily of Furey here.).

Frank Shamrock often said that he valued seeking submission over position and you can see this approach here. If fact after watching these guys when I first saw Caro Parysian bridge back with a '2 on 1' grip throw and then submit the guy with a hammerlock (kimura) in one movement I thought "Sure this guy says he's a judo guy but this is exactly what those catch guys are doing!" - Thank Gene Labelle and Gokor, I guess. But not just for the judo!

A person with a background in high school/collegiate wrestling is going to make the transition into this style more easily, just a judo people could arguably adopt more easily to Brazilian jiujitsu.

[Luebbers]

I've always been suspicious of the whole "submission over position" philosophy. For one, I've never seen a so-called "low-percentage submission" from a non-dominant position work in a real competitive environment. Secondly, a dominant position is dominant not entirely because of submission, but because of the realities of fighting. Really, there are fewer submission possiblities from the mount that from other positions (especially no-gi), but in a fight, I have the ability to punch you with virtual impunity. I've probably gotten more submissions from side control or even guard than from the mount, but in a fight, I'd definitely take the mount as a dominant position from which to pummel an opponent.

[Bad Karma]

Michael, you are so right in what you say. I believe Bas Rutten was the first person I heard say that publicily (about the mount). Anyway, I did mention it is misleading. Tony C. will forever and always preach positional dominance, but he doesn't focus on the classic positions we often think of. I think he says it like that so you don't get locked down into thinking you have to maintain position to do anything. He preaches the opponent's whole body is an opportunity for submission (with a hook being the ideal end). If you are always looking at position; you will miss the submission/hook opportunity. Of course, he's from the wrestling side of the house, so THAT may be a given/implied understanding (positional dominance) - I dunno and can't say for certain. I'm no hooker. :devil:

EDIT: Just hit me. Like the infamous G-n-P. A wreslter can control the guy while in their guard. Why? The wrestler will drive into them and control their hips. You're not supposed to be in control from that position, right? I like this example and I'm sticking with it - LOL!

EDIT:
Thanks, Andrew. I figured the perspective might be different. What is different about the perspective? What are you asking? Can you repeat the question? :laugh:

Peace

[Luebbers]

If I understand correctly, that's an extremely valid point. One of the best times to move in for a submission, is during transition - there's so much going on, and so many possiblities for movement, it's easier to catch an opponent off guard. In that sense, I can see how submission would trump position. If, during a scramble, I have an option of moving to a dominant position, or going for a legitimate submission, I think submission is the way to go, even though you will probably sacrifice position if you fail. For one, I think this makes for a more exciting fight (or grappling session), and if you work on submissions during transitional periods - that's a dangerous weapon to have.

PS - I do feel that in BJJ (in my limited experience) the whole position over submission thing gets so drilled into you, that in the above situation, you may be so single-mindedly focused on position, that you pass up possible submissions. That being said, I'm no expert in BJJ or general submission grappling - maybe those black belts don't have that problem.

[TIRAGION]

Just watched 2 of Tony's video's. For my 2 cents I dont't the techniques are better then what you can learn with a good BJJ instructor. However I will say that the video's were very good, Tony explained the submissions well with good insights and if I get the cash I will add these to my personal library. While I do prefer position game, I think not to see and understand the catch frame of mind would be a mistake. I would give the 2 video's I saw 9 out of 10.

_______________________
Alexander Rakita

[Bad Karma]

Which two vid's were those, Alexander?

Peace

[Jeff C.]

When you "find" a submission during a scramble, you lock the position AND the submission on simultaneously. You still need to gain - and hold - position to get the submission; they just happen at the same time. Is that what you guys are talking about?

Jeff Cook

[Bad Karma]

I do feel that in BJJ (in my limited experience) the whole position over submission thing gets so drilled into you, that in the above situation, you may be so single-mindedly focused on position, that you pass up possible submissions. That being said, I'm no expert in BJJ or general submission grappling - maybe those black belts don't have that problem.

Michael, I think you're on to something when you say that. I think they do (generalized). If they didn't, I don't think GnP would ever have come to light. I mean, if you're stuck into holding a position like the guard, you'll bring out the GnP. How many BJJ BB's have you seen get GnP'd? They refuse to give up what's thought of as being a better position.

Myself, this can be the difference between an offensive and defensive mentality. This could also be a need of the fighter. This directly relates to how guard is played - offensively or defensively. Transition is a good thing, but transitioning while still in control is far superior. Doesn't mean to transition without control doesn't have value; it does, but it's not ideal. You can take this into many different areas, but I believe we have the same understanding on the subject.

Jeffro, you can have submission without position (grappling sense). Look no further than traditional JJ for those examples. It's the always in attack mode, that Catch brings out. One thing Tony C. brings out about Catch is "His whole body as a target; Your whole body as a weapon." Another is his reference to JJ being the gentle art and Catch being the "anti-"gentle art. It's all in the outlook and approach, aside from certain techniques.

Peace

[Tony Dismukes]

How many BJJ BB's have you seen get GnP'd? They refuse to give up what's thought of as being a better position.

If they're thinking of the guard as a "better position", then that's their problem. The guard is not a dominant position in a real fight - it's an equalizing position which allows the person on the bottom to still be in the game. Renzo Gracie, for example, clearly states that in a fight he wants to get some variation of a mount position (top mount, side mount, knee mount). He says the guard is necessary because sometimes the other guy is bigger or a better wrestler and he can get top position and you can't. In that case, having the guard allows you to even the odds.

[Luebbers]

That's why I think that a good GnP'er against a good BJJ can make for a really interesting match. Look at Fedor v. Nogueira. Nogueira has arguably (though not in my mind) the best offensive guard in MMA. That guy forces openings and makes things happen from his back. In my opinion, the way he does it is simply the way things ought to be done. Fedor has probably the best top-game ground and pound in MMA. When they go into a fight, it's such a tenous position - you've got one guy taking a risk by staying in the other guy's guard to pound and the other guy taking a risk by keeping his guard and working for submission - anything could happen at any moment. But, you'll notice, that even if the guy on bottom wins, his face is usually well marked for it.

[Bad Karma]

This could also be a need of the fighter.
Tony Dismukes, I'm in full agreement...not that Renzo needs my approval - LOL!

EDIT: Wrong "Tony" in 1st post - DOH!

Peace