In the Ring or on the Mat?

[Sledgehammer]

I like to watch ya know true fights in the ring...as something to watch but in a way i feel it is not right to learn martial arts just to fight someone in a cage or a ring until you cant lift your arms or they cant get up i feel that in a way that it is morally wrong. Id like to know everyones personal opinion. On the mat or in the ring preference on the poll,and a post on how you feel about MMA fights. Although i feel it can be wrong for entertainment..but id like to go to like a world martial arts tournament one day to test my skills..i know this may sound weird i would want to fight in a tournament in front of other Martial Artist to see how i could do in my division and watch other very skilled martial artist to see how they do what they learned. Only as a sport not a brutal battle. Whats your guys opinion? :confused:

[Erik]

Hi Tom,

I don't mean this in a mean way, but it would help us to read your post a little better if you would use correct writing mechanics.

I'm not really sure what you're asking here.

But to answer your question (as I think I understood it), you wrote: "i feel it is not right to learn martial arts just to fight someone in a cage or a ring until you cant lift your arms or they cant get up i feel that in a way that it is morally wrong."

I'd argue there are not moral problems with it so long as all involved are volunteers and had ample opportunity to train. Morally, it's wrong to pick on someone, but to agree to a duel (or a match, whatever the term) I feel is well within our rights to do what we want to do with our lives and our time.

I also don't see any other reason to learn to fight than to, well, learn to fight. There are other sports that are far better for fitness (like triathalon, water polo, soccer, etc.)

I don't see a point in going through the motions of pretending to fight (training) unless one is working toward being able to fight. In which case testing it out in a mutually agreed upon match seems to be a-okay to do.

Now what does this have to do with on a mat or in a ring?

I'm still not sure I understood your question, though.

[Sledgehammer]

like ok i dont feel that martial arts should be learned just to be able to fight in a caged ring.

the on the mat thing is what i wanna know from people here,do they prefer to fight on the mat or in the caged ring.

[MarcoPolo]

I'm going to have to go with "mat". I don't think amateurs typically fight in a cage.
(Unless you train somewhere where they also train competitive MMA fighters)?

If you are talking about wanting to fight "sport" and less "combat" you should try BJJ where you can do both if you like.

I'm with Erik on this one.. no inherent "moral" implications on this one. If you dig it, do it. If you don't, don't.

[poetic misjustice]

well me and a few MA friends have got together and formed a sort of sparring club, we just get together and spar, but lately we've been using mods, like post fighting (a series of short posts on the ground and the MA step on them not allowed to touch floor) beam fighting (similar but with a beam) and one we did once for a movie (multimedia coursework) strobe light fighting (fighting with strobe lights) but generally i prefer the mat

[James O'Neill]

I like to "think outside the box" to use a popular cliche'. My favorite place to spar is at my buddy Ron's place - it is a relatively small, oddly shaped room with a wall that juts out in an awkward location. The floor is matted unevenly to boot so footing can be precarious.

[Sledgehammer]

sometimes i lay in my bed or in the floor of the dojo and just wish something would happen that would cause a real life situation where i would have to go all out and give it my all with my martial arts training not in a square room,not on a flat floor. In some weird place that a fight would be hard to control. Like James who trains in the awkward room,i want the real situation to happen in a awkward room to pull my deepest needed abilities out to try to win the struggle of the battle. Make sense?

[Erik]

Tom - go pick a fight with some bikers. You'll get what you're after.

[Sledgehammer]

Not really what i had in mind Erik...i meant with another martial artist in an awkward area...you really didnt have to be a smart alec about it.

[Erik]

Sorry, pal. I didn't mean it as harshly as it looked. No offense.

[Sledgehammer]

its cool,no hard feelings

[Jeff C.]

No Thomas, you are not making sense.

You think that a controlled sporting environment, with rules and volunteer participants is "immoral," yet you lay around fantasizing about kicking someone's a$$ in a "real" fight? You want to pull your "deepest needed abilities out to try to win the struggle of the battle"? Your "deepest needed abilities" should be your ability to avoid a "real" fight at all costs, to conquor the struggle to validate your unhealthy ego within yourself. Trust me, real fighting sucks bad, even when you win. Not only should you be terrified for your own life during a fight, but you also need to be terrified about the ramifications of your "winning" the fight (I am talking urban homeland environment with all of the legal ramifications, NOT combat with the enemy overseas).

My advice would be for you to pull your "deepest needed" head out of your young butt before you get what you wish for. I understand your fantasy, but some fantasies should be recognized for the unhealthy manifestation of ego that they are, and should be kept to yourself. Stick to testing yourself in tournaments.

Please take this in a friendly, but very stern manner. I do not intend to demean you in public; YOU stated your fantasy here, and wanted opinions.

Jeff Cook

[Sledgehammer]

well i meant people train only to do organized caged fighting all i wanna do is be in a situation where i have to move think and fight in seconds at a time i dont feel that is immoral. I feel that my "fantasy"(as you put it) is not immoral at all. I meant in an awkward place to have to test myself in,in a real situation not for sport of beating someone.

[Stauds]

well i meant people train only to do organized caged fighting(.) all i wanna do is be in a situation where i have to move(,) think(,) and fight(,) in seconds at a time(.) i dont feel that is immoral. I feel that my "fantasy"(as you put it) is not immoral at all. I meant in an awkward place to have to test myself in,in a real situation(,) not for sport of beating someone.
Like Eric said, if you want to be in an "awkward place" to test yourself in; a "real life" situation, then go to a bar and say you slept with the biggest, baddest biker's mom.

You say you want to get into a "real" fight, to test yourself, "not for the sport of beating someone." If it isn't for the sport of beating someone, what is it for? If you had been in a real fight before, you would know it isn't something to go out of your way for. What if the person pulls a knife, a gun, or calls friends? What if this person is a 7th degree black belt in Kickboxing, or something equally as fearsome? What if you end up punching the person so hard in the head, you cause severe trauma to the neck and brain, and the person cannot walk or talk anymore? I think if you wanted to test yourself you should walk away from a potential fight; that would prove your self-control over the other person.

[Jeff C.]

Good post, Eddy.

Jeff Cook

[Erik]

Like Eric said, if you want to be in an "awkward place" to test yourself in; a "real life" situation, then go to a bar and say you slept with the biggest, baddest biker's mom.
That reminds me of a joke:

So, there are two bikers in a biker bar having a drink and one guy says to the other, "I slept with your mother."

The other guy looks at him like he's crazy and goes on with his beer.

"No, really, I slept with your mom," he slurs.

"Yeah, whatever."

By now the other patrons are starting to pay attention to this conversation, wondering when the chairs and mugs are going to start flying.

"No, I'm serious," he slurs, raising his voice. "Not once, not twice, but-"

"Alright! You're drunk. Let me take you home, Dad."

[BGalehouse]

Different people at different times have talked of combat as a shaper of men and a way to cause growth. Patton, for example. More broadly, studies on war do work their way into less gruesome activities. Sun Tsu's work is on more than one executive bookshelf. So a fascination with violence is hardly new, nor is it, in my opinion, unhealthy.

However, we do not live in feudal Japan. We do not live in one of the many other times and places where duels were commonplace. Even then, and far more so today, society works to limit the scope of such activities. On the other hand, there is still violence in today's world. If the nightly news doesn't make that clear, a conversation with any officer will.

If you would choose to train for true violent situations, as are most likely to occur today, there are people on this board and in many dojos who might be interesting in helping you. You may need to convince them that you have control over your fascinations. Seeing the mat as less ethical than random violence on the street is a bad sign. But stepping into a dojo instead of a street fight is itself a good sign.

In many things, the reality can be very different than the popular romantizations. I particularly want to re-emphasis the point that real fights can be very random. A lot of real self defense is in minimizing these random factors by being aware of the larger environs, and influencing them.

Also, remember that for every Musashi, there were innumerable braggarts cut down and forgotten. For every loud competent Gracie, there are innumerble loud "bullshido" instructors. The problem with putting it all on the line in a test is that not everybody passes.

Also, a good instructor can set up training situations, on the mat, in which you do need to draw on reserves that you don't normally tap and otherwise provide a controlled approximation of the full testing that you seem to crave. However, doing this safely takes time and training on your part. The instructor needs to trust both you and your opponent(s) to maintain a veener of control sufficient to allow practice to continue another day. This same discipline gives you a chance at keeping you wits if things go pear shaped on the street, and that can be a more important lesson than any specific technique. The cage is a different approximation, with, I feel sure, similar lessons available.

[Luebbers]

Also, remember that for every Musashi, there were innumerable braggarts cut down and forgotten. For every loud competent Gracie, there are innumerble loud "bullshido" instructors. The problem with putting it all on the line in a test is that not everybody passes.

.

Great frigging point. That to me sums up the whole street fight vs. cage fight argument. I'll agree that sport fighting in a cage or ring is not the same as a fight in the street, but in an MMA match, the loser (or the winner) rarely ends up with more than a check up/overnight stay in the hospital. There is no such guarantee of that in a street fight. If I want to test my fighting ability, I'll take the safe road and fight how the NSAC wants me to fight. I'd rather prove myself in the ring and stay out of the street than have someone else prove himself OVER me in the street with God-knows-what consequence.

[hizaguchi]

I'm still having a hard time understanding why you would want to be attacked in such a way that you were forced to fight. That kind of situation can only end with at least one person severely injured. I assume that you don't want to be the one hurt or killed, so the only sense I can make of this is that you are not quite sick enough to go out and look for people to hurt, but you would jump at the opportunity if it came in a situation where you could rationalize your aggression as "self defense". How is that more morally sound than a sporting event?

[Sledgehammer]

its kind of hard to explain my point that im trying to get at i guess.in my mind i know what i wanna say but i cant get it to come out right. trust me in my mind i feel that i am being morally right about the situation.

[hizaguchi]

I'm sure you do feel you are morally right. Few people act in ways that they feel are morally wrong. The problem is that people have a way of convincing themselves that the things they want to do are morally acceptable. This is called rationalization.

Keep in mind though, that there is a difference between someone who is cautiously making his way to his car when he is attacked, and someone who walks down dark alleys alone with a wad of $20's hanging out of his pocket, hoping for a fight. Though this is an exaggeration, the kind of thinking that you describe could lead to a comparable situation. If you hope to be attacked, you are less likely to take measures to avoid it. Like Jeff suggested, you should get your ego in check.

[jjaje]

Since this forum is for competitions, and this thread really is not about a competition, but rather a romanticized notion, I think we should just let it die.

Hopefully our young Sledgehammer will live to see another decade, and look back on this and say "what was I thinking?"

[lostfighter]

I know exactly hwo you feel. I've been taking TKD for almost 6 yearsnow, and I'm the guy at school that is really disrispected, and wishes that someone would throw the first punch so I oculd just unlish on him. But, you have to realize that first, your mind simulatates what you WANT to happen and not always what WOULD happen. Second you have to factor in their firends. Third there's an ENOURMOUS jump from dojo fighting to "real fighting". Espeacily when most of todays martial arts train for simulated fights, and in "real fights" you can only react to your oppionent, and can't say when he does this I do this, this, and this.

[Sledgehammer]

well i talked to clear and he said he saw nothing wrong with it and again i apologize for the incidents that have happened cause i plan to attend Mr Clears classes and learn a great deal to enjoy my martial arts life.

[Jeff C.]

Let us know how it turns out, Thomas.

Jeff Cook

[Sledgehammer]

im still wanting to know everyones opinions

[hizaguchi]

im still wanting to know everyones opinions
Moving on from the issue of wanting real life violence...my opinion:

There is nothing wrong (morally or otherwise) with any kind of tournament I have ever seen. Nothing wrong with the act of consensual violence, nothing wrong with training just for that purpose, nothing wrong with it being worth money, and nothing wrong with getting together with friends, pizza, and alcohol to watch it. In fact, this kind of competition is beneficial to the martial arts because it offers another venue for testing effectiveness of techniques (flawed, but better than nothing) and forces even hardcore traditionalists to think outside the box.

[loppy]

Why don't you join the SEAL'S or Marines? They might show you what you missed in fighting.
Now what is if you kill somebody? You might end up in Jail. Then what??

2 evenings ago ( it was ca. 7 pm) i was out with the dog. Border collie. I man in a truck showed up and yelled something to me. I have no idea if he was drunk or even on drugs. I did not listen to him , i did walked away. why?? When people are on drugs they can have power and strength you never heard off. They are strong and their strength will last longer then your fight. Drunk people can be a nightmare too.
I rather try to avoid fights . I see the MA as a hobby , as a sport to keep my body in shape. But thats me. MY opinium.

[Rich]

Personally, I like entering shiai held in a dojo on mats. It's a good test of your techniques and skill but with rules to ensure a degree of safety.

It seems to me that cage fighting exists to allow fighters from across the spectrum in terms of style to compete against each other. The format itself is mainly for the viewing audiences benefit. I don't think it matters too much whether you're on tatami or in a ring. You apply your techniques in a similar way.

The interesting thing about the cage fights is that they have shown that the grappling arts such as BJJ and Judo are extremely effective. :D Sorry, I couldn't resist adding that! :up:

Richard.

[Iron Monkey]

I like to watch ya know true fights in the ring...as something to watch but in a way i feel it is not right to learn martial arts just to fight someone in a cage or a ring until you cant lift your arms or they cant get up i feel that in a way that it is morally wrong. Id like to know everyones personal opinion. On the mat or in the ring preference on the poll,and a post on how you feel about MMA fights. Although i feel it can be wrong for entertainment..but id like to go to like a world martial arts tournament one day to test my skills..i know this may sound weird i would want to fight in a tournament in front of other Martial Artist to see how i could do in my division and watch other very skilled martial artist to see how they do what they learned. Only as a sport not a brutal battle. Whats your guys opinion? :confused:

I understand what you are asking cleary, you fall under a heavy spiritual martial artist, some may ask me what do I mean? Many may say they are spirtual martial arts but truth be told they are not. Some people practice martial arts for a reason such as, self defense, learning martial arts just to fight well and some practice to fight for money. It is nothing wrong with testing your skills but martial artist fighting for fun and just to make money I don't care if they are good or not, it may be cool to watch because I do watch MMA fights but some forget what is martial arts and what do it mean. My path of the martial arts will always be a way of life, my opionion of MMA fights is that those are people who just like to fight but I know that I hate fighting and I will never fight for money.

[Iron Monkey]

Like Eric said, if you want to be in an "awkward place" to test yourself in; a "real life" situation, then go to a bar and say you slept with the biggest, baddest biker's mom.

You say you want to get into a "real" fight, to test yourself, "not for the sport of beating someone." If it isn't for the sport of beating someone, what is it for? If you had been in a real fight before, you would know it isn't something to go out of your way for. What if the person pulls a knife, a gun, or calls friends? What if this person is a 7th degree black belt in Kickboxing, or something equally as fearsome? What if you end up punching the person so hard in the head, you cause severe trauma to the neck and brain, and the person cannot walk or talk anymore? I think if you wanted to test yourself you should walk away from a potential fight; that would prove your self-control over the other person.

Dude you don't have to go a bar fight, to test your skill for real, you can test your skill at your school or with someone who trains with you, meaning test with control if you have it.

[STORMCROW34]

I question the sincerity of the original question, but here goes...

If you train or have trained in all the arts you have listed under your avatar then surely you know some friends that train in those respective arts.

Why don't you get together with some aforementioned friends and hang out in someone's back yard. Have a barbeque, drink beer or coolaid in your case, maybe play a little badminton. But before any of this, come to an agreement with everyone there that the purpose of this weekly or monthly get together is to test ones ability to fend off and counter surprise attacks.

Now the agreement should be that anyone there who agrees to participate may attack any of the other participants at anytime, with any means necessary, within reason. You should be able to sucker punch someone, or kick them in the junk from behind, or just run up and tackle them when they aren't looking. But I wouldn't encourage smashing a beer bottle into someones eye or stabbing them on the inside of their thigh with a steak knife, but that's best left up to the discretion of those involved.

I believe that should be a decent way to test and facilitate acclimatization to random violence.

[Iron Monkey]

Ok if that is your opionion cool good for you but I am saying one thing you don't have to just go fight someone in an all out war to test your skill. Now what I am saying is that you can test your skiils for, example if you train at your school or train with a friend like I do alot I may say live speed and I use control on my technique. This is my opionion but if you have your own cool.

[STORMCROW34]

Javon, sorry for the confusion. My last post was directed to Sledgehammer.

[Iron Monkey]

no problem I am sorry too, it's cool.

[toryander]

An interesting thread with interesting comments. I suppose different people need different trials to feel like they've been tested. For me it doesn't take much. I grew up in a very non-violent environment. I've never been in an uncontrolled fight in my life. I don't know why. Growing up I was alwasy timid and little invisible I guess. Anyway, most of my sparring is Olympic style TKD. While this kind of sparring has nothing in common with a street fight it is still full contact with knockouts allowed and getting on the mat in a tournament still scares me. I've been severely outkicked, caught an axe kick on the forehead, and been so tired that my strategy was just to try to make the time without getting knocked out. I know for some this is just fun, but for me it is a test of my skills, my desire to win, and my courage. Those are the same things that would be tested in a street fight so for me (and I am only speaking for myself), the full-contact tournament is enough to satisfy my active desire for a test. A street fight is a test I do not actively desire.