reliable escrima sticks

[spinning blades78]

hey guys,

just out of curiosity, I was wondering if anyone knew where I could go to find somewhat pretty reliable escrima sticks. Thanks for any replies.

Erik

[Rob Daniels]

hey guys,

just out of curiosity, I was wondering if anyone knew where I could go to find somewhat pretty reliable escrima sticks. Thanks for any replies.

Erik

You can order online at Tigerclaw.com or centuryfitness.com

[Erik]

Hi Erik

Try this: http://www.bloodsport.com/

I use the 5/8" sticks.

--Erik

[John J]

For individual purchases, try:

www.bloodsport.com

I believe they have the same quality as the wholesale distributor (below) and fire harden their own design.


For bulk purchasing on great quality raw rattan with skin intact contact:

Bamboo & Rattan Works, Inc.
470 Oberlin Avenue South
Lakewood, New Jersey 08701
Phone: 732.370.0220
Fax: 732.905.8386

They sell bushels of 9 foot poles that you can cut to preferred length.


John J

[Glide]

For individual purchases, try:

www.bloodsport.com

I believe they have the same quality as the wholesale distributor (below) and fire harden their own design.


For bulk purchasing on great quality raw rattan with skin intact contact:

Bamboo & Rattan Works, Inc.
470 Oberlin Avenue South
Lakewood, New Jersey 08701
Phone: 732.370.0220
Fax: 732.905.8386

They sell bushels of 9 foot poles that you can cut to preferred length.


John J

John,
Any special way to cut that 9' pole to the needed length?
Saw an article somewhere on the web about cutting , burning , baking ,...... I think it was from the (stickman)?

[DragonMind]

hey guys,

just out of curiosity, I was wondering if anyone knew where I could go to find somewhat pretty reliable escrima sticks. Thanks for any replies.

Erik
Rattan is going to shred, just the nature of the wood. Get a roll of clear packing tape (2-3" wide works best) and wrap it tightly around the shredding part. Makes sticks last 3-4x longer. Much cheaper than buying new sticks all the time.

[Brian R. VanCise]

I always buy my rattan sticks in 6,8 or 9 foot lengths and
cut them to the desired length. When I notice some wear,
ie. the splitting I then wrap them in black renfro hockey tape!
This literally has worked for me and I probably would never
have to buy new sticks except that I enjoy handling brand
new rattan and smelling the burn when the sticks are
smacking! I have probably almost a thousand sticks because
of this method!

Brian R. VanCise

[DragonMind]

OK, I won't argue with the burning smell :laugh: :laugh:

[loui_ludwig]

hey guys,

just out of curiosity, I was wondering if anyone knew where I could go to find somewhat pretty reliable escrima sticks. Thanks for any replies.

Erik

If your in Los Angeles, go to Tatak Filipino. They have escrima/arnis sticks.

[TogaAssassin]

Really helpfull thread everyone. I've recently been chewing through sticks like no tomorrow (most hibernate in the winter I train ;)). I think I might look into some of those fire hardened sticks from bloodsport. My roll of hockey tape is starting to run thin.

[DragonMind]

I've always found Kombat to be a little pricey. Karate Mart has the same sticks 30% cheaper.

[Bad Karma]

I'm surprised there hasn't been some kind of synthetic/polymer type stick designed by now. There may be, but I'm unaware of any.

Peace

[TogaAssassin]

I found some composite sticks on froogle but I would rather stick to tried and true rattan.

[DragonMind]

Tony, there have been several attempts at non-wood sticks, including plastic, lucite, PVC, and others. I have a great pair I got from TakKnife that are polymer. You can beat the holy crap out of them but they are so slick you can't do any stick on stick work. Wood just has a feel and response to it that man-made materials don't emulate. You'll even find difference among wood species. I have a kamagong stick (ironwood) that is so heavy and dense it is like using a steel bar. Great for smashing through things but lousy for quick moves. Many of the stick techniques developed because of the characteristics of rattan and don't work as well with other materials. Besides, rattan is cheap if you know where to shop or better yet, buy in bulk.

[Bad Karma]

I have a pair of burned rattan in the closet, but have never had the opportunity to formally train with them. I do know that I almost sprained my wrist the first time I messed them. Light and fast is an understatement - LOL!

What do mean by so slick you can't do any stick on stick work? Are the sticks supposed to be "sticky" or something? That's an honest question with a dab of humor to help disguise my ignorance.

Peace

[John Lucas]

I was under the impression that Escrima sticks were supposed to be solid, non-flexible materials, and that generally, kali sticks were made of rattan.

I made a set of fighting sticks from PVC once, I filled the center with cement mix. They are short and swing out really fast, but weigh about the same as my friends Ironwood sticks. (Which, by the way, I think are excellent, They feel like you could bust up cement blocks with them.)

I actually just use an old steel pullup bar most of the time, Its probably not reccomended however, they are heavy and if you ended up tossing one you could injure someone badly. Also, they have flat heads on the end of them with sharp corners. I just enjoy the workout, and I only know a few different moves anyways, so I just use them for a grip/speed/coordination kind of thing. Im not an escrima student, I just really enjoy practicing with double sticks.

[Neil Yamamoto]

One of the guys I know up here in the Pac NW, based in Eugene, OR uses Delrin stock and lightly roughs up the surface of the stick with sandpaper. Improves the grip quite a bit.

It does feel different. The downside I've found is in the vibration created in the material when you hit. Some of the sticks were fine, some of them vibrated so badly in any impact it really was unpleasant to train.

Worth trying out though, cheap and tough stuff.

[DragonMind]

What do mean by so slick you can't do any stick on stick work? Are the sticks supposed to be "sticky" or something? That's an honest question with a dab of humor to help disguise my ignorance.

Peace
Not a problem, Tony, that's a legitimate question. Let me describe a technique where that contact is important.

We have a strike labeled #1 angle; a downward diagonal strike going from an arms open to arms closed position (your arm crossing in front of your body). One defense is to meet this strike with a solid block with your stick (probably augmented by your off-hand). Very force on force. Let's suppose that instead of opposing that force you would like to redirect that force, ie parry it away. This time, instead of meeting the force directly, you blend with it and use your stick to apply tangential pressure on his to circle it down and in front of you. If your stick is too slick it will not allow you to guide his stick. Same idea as not being able to parry an arm that's too sweaty. :laugh:

[DragonMind]

I was under the impression that Escrima sticks were supposed to be solid, non-flexible materials, and that generally, kali sticks were made of rattan.
Kali, Escrima/Eskrima, and Arnis are just regional names for the same thing. Rattan is traditional simply because that's what grows in PI and is readily available. If cut and dried, it's a relatively soft wood that is very light and reasonably flexible. The feel in your hand is fast and because of its flexibility the shock of strikes is not transferred to your hand. If you take that same stick and fire treat it, you end up with a harder stick that resists shredding. Rattan doesn't really break because the grain is very loose and runs parallel. to the length. The other advantage to a warrior is that you can also sharpen them to a point and they won't break; very useful for puncturing Spanish invaders. Kamagong (ironwood) is also used, but purely as a combat stick. You can pound the dickens out of armor with it and do some real damage. Unfortunately, the wood is so dense that it is quite a bit heavier than rattan and transmits all the shock of hitting something solid directly to your hand. Bottom line, bad for training because of injuries to both parties and fatigue, great for reducing your opponent to rubble - if done quickly. For you swordsmen, think of the difference between a sabre and a German hand-and-a-half or English broadsword.


I made a set of fighting sticks from PVC once, I filled the center with cement mix. They are short and swing out really fast, but weigh about the same as my friends Ironwood sticks. (Which, by the way, I think are excellent, They feel like you could bust up cement blocks with them.)
You probably can. Only problem is ironwood is also expensive. John's polymer sticks (TakKnife (http://www.takknife.com/)) can take the same level of abuse but are as light as rattan. Great training aid for getting used to feeling real impact and how that effects your strike.


I actually just use an old steel pullup bar most of the time, Its probably not reccomended however, they are heavy and if you ended up tossing one you could injure someone badly. Also, they have flat heads on the end of them with sharp corners. I just enjoy the workout, and I only know a few different moves anyways, so I just use them for a grip/speed/coordination kind of thing. Im not an escrima student, I just really enjoy practicing with double sticks.
We'll fix that John. Next time I get near Atlanta we'll do some basic Arnis drills and get you started if you don't make it to The Camp. [shameless plug]Maybe Santa can find $25 and get you Dan Anderson's Arnis Basics book. Lots of good drills and designed as a lesson plan for new Arnis students.[/shameless plug]

[DragonMind]

One of the guys I know up here in the Pac NW, based in Eugene, OR uses Delrin stock and lightly roughs up the surface of the stick with sandpaper. Improves the grip quite a bit.
I worked with John about changing the grip on his polymers. After months of experimenting, John just found that the friction coefficient on the polymer is so high that nothing can make them stickier! Poor guy tried sandpaper, knurling, and dozens of engraving patterns - nothing helped.

BTW that kind of customer service is rare in any industry. I can't recommend TakKnife strong enough. John is a great guy who loves challenges.

[John Lucas]

Those sticks are really really nice, if they are as indestructible as you say, then 30 bucks a stick is definitely worth it.
(Definitely a side-note)
Looks like they would glow in the black light too, off topic I know, but anyone nearby would be amazed at the swirling flashes of light flying out around you.

That would be very much appreciated Barry, I have been swinging these things aimlessly long enough and it would be nice to learn to use them with some skill. I wish the camp was close enough that I didnt have to find lodging, as of right now I dont know that I would be able to cover the cost of the camp as well as find a hotel. But maybe "the holidays" will be good to me.

[John Lucas]

Sorry, posted on accident, then edited and timer expired so I wanted to add this, but I didnt want to bother an admin so I hope nobody minds the double post.

Out of curiosity, what is your opinion on the loop, is it to increase retention, Ive got a pair of fighting sticks I made from an old broom handle (someone I used to train with carried a similar pair and threw them from his sleeves, catching them by the cord. It also helps them work kind of like a Dan Bong.) sometimes it can get in the way though, Ive never tried it on a longer stick.

Looks like they would glow in the black light too...wouldnt help you much with self defense...unless you happened to use them in a club or something and the attacker gets distracted by all the flashing colors (might make it harder to defend against the stick too since it will be in about three different places at once.)

...But hopefully "the holidays" will be good to me. I will pick up a book if I get a chance, can it be found at Barnes and Noble? Coincidentally Im dating a half filipino girl who works there and gets a 30% discount.

[DragonMind]

The loop is kind of a gimmick so you don't have to keep chasing them when doing disarms. :laugh: I wouldn't want them on longer sticks, though I love them on my dan bong.

Sorry, Dan sells direct from his publisher to keep the price down. With all the photos it is an expensive book to print.

[Brian R. VanCise]

I just got a pair of TakKnife bodyguard sticks the other day
and I must say I am impressed. I love rattan and
do not see myself ever moving away from rattan for
partner practice. I also use Kamagong alot for individual
practice and I love that type of hardwood combative
stick as well. Having said that, the polymer TakKnife sticks
are really nice because unlike most of the synthetic sticks I
have had in the past they have designed their sticks to have the
same weight of rattan and also their sticks do not vibrate
as much do to a hollow design. All of the synthetic sticks
I have had in the past transferred to much vibration back
to the striking hand. TakKnife sticks seem to have fixed
that problem with their product. The other day I used the
sticks to beat on a tire, heavybag, ground, stick to stick
with no damage to the sticks and no more vibrational
transfer than I would get with rattan. These synthetic
sticks are the very best I have tried yet.

Also any of the Modern Arnis books of Dan Anderson are
a great buy!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

[K Williams]

I'm surprised there hasn't been some kind of synthetic/polymer type stick designed by now. There may be, but I'm unaware of any.

Peace

There are a few companies that make synthetic sticks. I think KIL(best rattan sticks I've used) has some now too.

KIL
http://www.bloodsport.com

Stickman
http://www.stickman-escrima.com

Mig Stix
http://www.cboggs.com/migstix/

Mad Dog
http://www.mdtactical.com/mdlabs/fightingsticks.htm

[DragonMind]

I just got a pair of TakKnife bodyguard sticks the other day
and I must say I am impressed. I love rattan and
do not see myself ever moving away from rattan for
partner practice. I also use Kamagong alot for individual
practice and I love that type of hardwood combative
stick as well. Having said that, the polymer TakKnife sticks
are really nice because unlike most of the synthetic sticks I
have had in the past they have designed their sticks to have the
same weight of rattan and also their sticks do not vibrate
as much do to a hollow design. All of the synthetic sticks
I have had in the past transferred to much vibration back
to the striking hand. TakKnife sticks seem to have fixed
that problem with their product. The other day I used the
sticks to beat on a tire, heavybag, ground, stick to stick
with no damage to the sticks and no more vibrational
transfer than I would get with rattan. These synthetic
sticks are the very best I have tried yet.

Also any of the Modern Arnis books of Dan Anderson are
a great buy!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com
HAve you noticed the slickness if you try to do some palis-palis or crossada moves?

[TogaAssassin]

Well, keeping in the spirit of the "stick thread" I figured I would post some impressions of the sticks I got from karate mart the other week :)

http://www.karate-mart.com/escrimastick.html

I figured at 6.95$ a pop the burnt style rattan sticks sounded like a good buy. All in all the total order came to right around 18$'s (which is about 3.50$ less then I would pay at my local MA supply store).

While these sticks aren't "bad" I don't like them nearly as much as the pair I was using :(.

IMO these sticks feel far to light, soft, and short and fat. Having said that all of my friends LOVE them (however none of my friends who have played with them are escrimadors). Based on this I would say these would be a GREAT stick to learn Kali/Arnis with but not such a great stick as you advance. I remember when I started training my rattan sticks started feeling heavy as I worked my drills for the first few months (My older sticks are quite a bit heftier and a little longer at 28inches).

After a few days of training I can already see deep welts forming from stick to stick contact (meaning that these will most likely be in tape in record time =P thanks again for the tip Barry :)).

BTW I was interested in picking up some Kamagong sticks for solo time training, I feel like training with the heavier weight would be good for me. However Kamagong sticks seem to be sort of expensive on the net and I can't find anywhere that sells them locally can anyone recommend a good source for affordable decent quality Kamagong sticks.

[Brian R. VanCise]

Barry,

The TakKnife sticks are pretty slick but not much slicker
than my kamagong hardwood sticks. Definately it makes you
work very hard to keep your grip. With rattan you do not
have this problem. I have thought about wrapping the TakKnife
sticks with renfro hockey tape and I probably will do this to
take care of the slippery factor. I do like the feel of them as
far as the weight and how they absorb vibrations. In the past
I have tried other synthetic sticks and all of them have done
a poor job in transferring to much vibration back to the striking
hand. So I like this synthetic version the best so far. Will it
replace my desire to train with rattan sticks? NO!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

[K Williams]

Kris Cutlery sells some good Kamagong sticks.

http://www.kriscutlery.com/philippine/escrima/index.html

[ryangruhn]

Allow me to humbly promote the new sticks that will be coming out in January 2006: www.Durattan.com I believe they will solve a lot of the problems all of you guys are experiencing with rattan. Sorry I can’t post many details at this point. Give Durattan™ a few more days and the site should be open ready for business!

Gruhn

[Brian R. VanCise]

The kamagong sticks from www.kriscutlery.com are great!
Generally that is where I get my kamagong from.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

[ryangruhn]

Spread the word, the site is open and ready to receive orders at the introductory pre-release prices! www.durattan.com

[DragonMind]

While these sticks aren't "bad" I don't like them nearly as much as the pair I was using :(.

IMO these sticks feel far to light, soft, and short and fat. Having said that all of my friends LOVE them (however none of my friends who have played with them are escrimadors). Based on this I would say these would be a GREAT stick to learn Kali/Arnis with but not such a great stick as you advance. I remember when I started training my rattan sticks started feeling heavy as I worked my drills for the first few months (My older sticks are quite a bit heftier and a little longer at 28inches).
When I started out I preferred the light sticks ( 7/8" diameter, 28" long, 5-6 oz) because I could make them fly. After working with SM Dan Anderson, I've changed my mind. A lot has to do with your striking style, IMHO. I found that I was using almost exclusively a "fly-casting" type of strike. That was great for largo ranges and combined with a 28" stick I was really out at largo. As I tried to move to medio or corto ranges, I found myself almost exclusively using punyo because I felt cramped. When Dan started me on Balintawak style strikes, the light bulb went off. Now I could strike at corto range with a full power blast and the thicker stick made it even more effective. What I've come to prefer is a stick that fills my hand so that my thumb and fingertips just touch (about 1-1/4" diameter). Bram Frank showed me the proper length is from the crease of the wrist to the armpit. Play with turning a bolo in close quarters and you'll quickly see why. A lot of folks have forgotten that the blade is just as important as the stick (in fact GM Presas' family style is a blade art - Remy used sticks to make it safer to train).


After a few days of training I can already see deep welts forming from stick to stick contact (meaning that these will most likely be in tape in record time =P thanks again for the tip Barry :)).
For technique, I stopped hitting that hard and focus more on angle, targeting, etc. When I want to slam and jam, the TakSticks come out. Saves wear and tear on the rattan.


BTW I was interested in picking up some Kamagong sticks for solo time training, I feel like training with the heavier weight would be good for me. However Kamagong sticks seem to be sort of expensive on the net and I can't find anywhere that sells them locally can anyone recommend a good source for affordable decent quality Kamagong sticks.
I generally get mine from Dragons Way Trading, but their web site went down this week for some reason. Seem to be about the same price as Kris. Great folks at both companies.

[DragonMind]

Barry,

The TakKnife sticks are pretty slick but not much slicker
than my kamagong hardwood sticks. Definately it makes you
work very hard to keep your grip. With rattan you do not
have this problem. I have thought about wrapping the TakKnife
sticks with renfro hockey tape and I probably will do this to
take care of the slippery factor. I do like the feel of them as
far as the weight and how they absorb vibrations. In the past
I have tried other synthetic sticks and all of them have done
a poor job in transferring to much vibration back to the striking
hand. So I like this synthetic version the best so far. Will it
replace my desire to train with rattan sticks? NO!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com
We're on the same page. I find I can grip them fine, the real problem comes when I try to use pressure of my stick to move your stick. My Taks are significantly slicker than the kamagong then. Being in Florida, I'm not familiar with renfro tape (not a lot of hockey here :laugh: ). Let me know if that helps. My concern is they might be too slick for the tape to adhere to!

[Rich Parsons]

. . .

When Dan started me on Balintawak style strikes, the light bulb went off. Now I could strike at corto range with a full power blast and the thicker stick made it even more effective. What I've come to prefer is a stick that fills my hand so that my thumb and fingertips just touch (about 1-1/4" diameter). . . .



I like the thicker sticks as well. Something to fit into my hands and to fit like a weapon should when you plan on hitting people. Now, for those who have smaller hands smaller diamerter sticks make sense as well. :)

[ryangruhn]

In regards to treating rattan has anyone tried to bake theirs in the oven?

Gruhn

[DragonMind]

In regards to treating rattan has anyone tried to bake theirs in the oven?

Gruhn
Here you go.


From: stickman@autobahn.org
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 23:30:37 -0700
Subject: eskrima: secrets of rattan
I got my nickname "Stickman" from supplying rattan to many Stockton escrimadors about 10 years ago. Since I don't make much rattan anymore, I might as well pass along some of my secrets. You can quickly see why making good rattan sticks is labor intensive, but the results will, if done properly, be worth the effort. The steps are simple, but there is a lot of technique in doing it right. A very Zen exercise, actually, as loss of focus at any stage can ruin a "perfect" stick.
First, I cut it to the length I want. I then grind the ends flat on a disk sander, then bevel the edges to eliminate sharp edges and prevent splintering. Next I sand down the nodes until they are smooth, again to prevent splintering. This involves angling the side of the stick against the rim of the sanding disk; an improper angle will gouge into the wood and the stick must be turned constantly to avoid flat spots.
After the sanding is done, I use a propane torch to bring the oils to the surface of the wood. Again, the stick must be kept in motion to avoid burning it, and hot pads are used because the stick can get very hot and retain the heat a long time. I will usually bring the oils up on one half of a stick, then put on my burn pattern, before switching ends and doing the other half. I like a "leopard spot" pattern, which involves darkening patches of the wood. It is imperative to keep the stick moving, and as soon as coloration begins, to get off the spot. One can see poor burn technique on most commercial sticks. In the burnt area there will be little blisters or holes in the skin where the oils popped from the heat. These weaken the wood from over-drying. A little color is better than too much. One trick for burnt areas, also good for the sanded nodes, is to rub the oil from your nose onto the wood (you can use your fingers; this is as fine a grade of natural oil as sperm whale oil, the finest grade sought by old-time whalers. Also good for repairing scratches in furniture, musical instruments etc., or defogging your glasses).
During this stage, I also like to burn the ends of the stick. I will basically light the end like a candle, then keep turning it to prevent deep burns, finally blowng it out.
Another burn pattern, called "tiger stripes", can be done by rolling the sticks across an electric stove element. I learned this one from Sonny Umpad. Some Hawaiian escrimadors I trained with would throw their sticks on the bbq after cooking their meat, to bake the wood and get their patterns off the grill. Reversing the stick angle can give a cross hatch pattern).
After this stage, I bake the sticks in an oven at about 375 degrees for 10-15 minutes. It is important to monitor the sticks constantly, so they don't over-bake. During this process, steam will come out of the end of the stick (you may see some of this with the torch as well). As soon as the steam stops, the stick is done! Sometimes one end will finish before the other; let the dry end stick out of the oven. I like to pull the sticks out and tap the ends on tile. A wet sound means "not finished". As soon as it has a crisp click, it's ready. By constant monitoring, the sticks get moved and turned, so they don't overbake on one side or one end.
If a stick is crooked, straighten it out while still hot. I just lay it on the floor and bend the other end up (using hot pads). As it cools, the stick will retain the adjustment. A properly heat treated stick is essentially hollow; you can blow on one end and feel warm breath come out the other end! The again, an over-dry stick will do the same . . .
Finally, when the stick is warm, I rub it down with the bone. You can hear little crackles as parts of the wood or skin compress. Finally, I buff the stick out on a buffing wheel. This gives it a good shine, spreads the natural oils evenly, and improves the adhesion of the grip. It feels much nicer than lacquer and will give off the familiar "burning" smell during training.
These, then, are my 7 steps: cut, sand, burn, bake, bend, bone, buff. Using this process, I've had some rattan last for years, such as my bo staffs made in 1986, which I still use for contact drills, with no splintering. The biggest problem is over-drying; that'll kill a stick quickly. A "perfect" stick is rare; I usually can spot my blemishes, but done right, these will last as well as can be expected for rattan.
BTW, one reason to train with power is to get used to handling it, a point well emphasized by the Dog Bros. I can finesse lots of my students, but when a big strong guy comes along, I either handle it or not, and that is experience. I'm not saying power is necessary to deal with power, but if you haven't felt it (or haven't worked with it recently) it can be a rude surprise. Again, really well prepared rattan should handle power, though obviously not as well as other materials such as certain hardwoods, plastics or metals.

Jeff "Stickman" Finder

[K Williams]

I've used Guro Jeff Finder's instructions too. Baking the rattan in the oven works pretty good. You just have to watch the sticks carefully so they don't burn. Wear a dust mask and goggles when sanding the nodes. That dust gets everywhere, including your lungs.

[beungood]

My instructor in Pekiti-Tirsia Kali (from Oregeon) nowmin Rhode Island and Mass uses Rattan from a bamboo supplier in 28" and 31" lengths and tries to get 1" to 1 1/4" diameters. we have had thinner diameters but the thinner sticks seem to move in your hand more and cause friction burns. The thicker ones are easier to hold onto and survive repeated pounding. We do have to duct tape em after awhile but we get good use out of them.

echoing what a poster said about alternative materials ,my Guro uses 1" Delrin/Acetyl rods about 28 or 30". We supplement rattan in drills with the Acetyl rod. If you hold your angles right, you don't feel the reverb as much. The heavier weight seems to help novices to use their body mechanics and swing correctly versus using muscle power. You can get it at most plastic suppliers if you google Delrin and acetyl rod.