View Full Version : Fence between US and Mexico
Apparently there is a bill in the house of representatives proposing the building of a double fence with a patrollable road in between on the US and Mexican border.
Personally, I think it is about time but am willing to listen to counter arguments...
Thoughts?
Caveat: When I wrote this I was concerned that this might evolve into a political discussion so lets try to keep this to whether or not we think it will be an effective method to improve national security and preventing crime...
That's a long border and a lot of fence.
Is this even practical?
What about figuring out which side of the border such-and-such hill, rock, stream, terrain feature lies on?
And how to detect tears in the fence?
I'd favor hearing out and considering the idea. Not sure about how I'd feel about implementing it. My jury is still out on this one.
I don't know how practical it is. I saw a special on it last night and it seems that trials in various parts of CA and NM are going very well. At least from the report I saw anyway...
The fence is electronically monitored with camera's and motion sensors and patrolled by the border patrol. I gather that there are actually two fences with a dirt road in between them which a vehicle can travel. The total cost is projected to be 6 billion for the entire border.
A few billion here and a few billion there and pretty soon you're talking real money!
It is a HUGE cost in my opinion, but when I think of how many potential terrorists could cross our border on any given day, it starts to seem a little smaller to me...
BGalehouse
10-06-2005, 15:41
Safes - those large heavy objects used to store valuables - are given rating by the UL according to how long they take skilled safe crackers to open. The most basic rating doesn't actually list a time, but is 5 minutes and allows the safe man portable power tools. There are high rating, and the safes cost more money. For example, 30min versus torch and small explosive charges is rather expensive.
The problem with building the wall is nothing compared to the problem of patroling it. I have trouble imagining a wall that would last 30 minutes against a pickup loaded with extention ladders and ropes. How easy would it be to have a 30 minute alarm and response along 2000 miles of border?
Practical- absolutely. We have the technology to build it.
Needed- absolutely. There is no bigger responsibility for a government than to protect its borders.
Affordable- ? Don't know what it would cost to build. This price would then need to be compared to the cost we are already spending on illegal immigration and Naional Security on our southern border.
I say, run the numbers, and if it's even close build it.
Peace
Dennis
Jay Bell
10-06-2005, 15:55
Indeed! It needs to be done.
AndrewSimonsen
10-06-2005, 16:26
California spends over 3 billion dollars a year to provide services to illegal imigrants.
Mark Barlow
10-06-2005, 16:33
Let's not forget those sneaky Canucks. I bet they're all plotting on how best to slip south and buy over priced prescription drugs and low flush toliets.
Not to mention less potent beer Mark!
Mark Barlow
10-06-2005, 16:53
No wonder the rest of the world envies us so!
On a semi-serious note, there have been way too many cases of Chinese and Arab nationals entering the U.S. through Canada. I guess we should focus on the larger problem first but the Northern border does need to be considered at some point.
MarcoPolo
10-06-2005, 16:57
Safes - those large heavy objects used to store valuables - are given rating by the UL according to how long they take skilled safe crackers to open. The most basic rating doesn't actually list a time, but is 5 minutes and allows the safe man portable power tools. There are high rating, and the safes cost more money. For example, 30min versus torch and small explosive charges is rather expensive.
The problem with building the wall is nothing compared to the problem of patroling it. I have trouble imagining a wall that would last 30 minutes against a pickup loaded with extention ladders and ropes. How easy would it be to have a 30 minute alarm and response along 2000 miles of border?
Great thought, but I'd like to add:
This would be a 2-tiered fence with a "man trap" in-between, so take the rating and double it. It's not like a safe where once you are in, you have total access. It is rare that the Border Patrol actually sees/catches people AS they enter, they usually catch them on the US side as they attempt to move
north to more populated areas.
I say build it, but don't expect any support or assistance from President Fox or his government. He has been very clear on his position.
The Canadian border is another problem as well. We need to build it on both sides. This isn't an immigration issue, it's a security issue.
I would agree Mark... In this day and age, political considerations aside, we need to wake up and secure our borders and coastlines. I have heard people argue that this is an isolationist stance but in my opinion, in the time of electronic exchange of information and jet travel it would really not make much difference in our ability to be a part of the world...
Just my thoughts...
It is a HUGE cost in my opinion, but when I think of how many potential terrorists could cross our border on any given day, it starts to seem a little smaller to me...
They are already here. The US issues 30 visas per month to fighting age males coming out of Chechnya. 30.... EVERY MONTH. 360 a year. Over 1500 since Sept 11.
We need to spend our money in better places.
That's certainly a fair counter-argument Joe... Though I would offer that 1500 people in 4 years who the state department has had a chance to do background checks on is much better than the 750,000 people a year who come across the US-Mexican border that we have no idea on their background...
The problem is, they ARNT doing appropriate background checks. Chechnya is still (according to state) one of those poor disenfranchised places trying to break free from the yoke of Russia... if you can beleive that pig waste.
So, they offer Visas for people to get out of that "war torn" area. But, due to the situation in Iraq and Afghanistan, everyone who WOULD be dealing with intel coming out of Chechnya are busy with other concerns... so, basically any Chechen who has friends in the highly corrupt regional government (Chechnya is one of the biggest organizaed crime areas in the country) can have the right documents done up to get a Visa.
With few people to check, and even fewer who would know what they were looking for, its not hard to get people through.
Of course, then you could ask "How do you know they are all terrorists?" and the answer is simple. Because nearly 100% of the adult male population are Wahhabist jihadis and if that wernt enough, by regional culture, boys should be ready to become warriors by the time they are 13.
Ive seen the captured videos of Russian soldiers being tortured while small children looked on. Little kids giggling when the soldier is decapatated. Then watched the children dance around the severed heads.
Chechnya is a cesspool of death, and we let 30 trained jihadis into our country every month.
Id rather worry about the known threat, than the potential one.
Good argument Joe... Sounds like we need to getter on alot of fronts to me...
BGalehouse
10-06-2005, 18:07
I'd like to make a more global argument against. Assume that the cost is x million (or would it be billion?) and the cost to operate is y million. If you were given this money to improve national security, is this the best you could do? How much does this realy slow down terrorists? Are there cheaper holes to plug?
I mean, in theory we could patrol every mile of border at 1 hour intervals, and have a fence which we estimate would take a hour to pass. But even with two fences and a man trap, an hour seems like a long time for a trained equiped group. And that is still a lot of patrols. And then there is the coast line.
And after we do all that, somebody will simply fly in on a legitimate visa and make trouble anyway. The name matching that kept Cat Stevens out of the country wouldn't exactly be difficult to work around. At least not for terrorists.
So along the lines of Joe's comment, I think that we should spend money on proactive measures. I don't mean by that we should go invading countries, though perhaps an invasion of intelligence agents would be in order. Any static defense can be worked around with a bit of thought and creativity. Unfortunatly, quiet active measures, such as carefull visa vetting, are less visible, and so don't make the masses feel secure.
I'm all for careful visa vetting and proactive measures overseas and at home... That doesn't solve the problem of the 2054 people who came into the country illegally today and the 750,000 who will this year. That doesn't solve the problem that 25% of the people in federal custody right now are illegal immigrants. If people were honestly only coming here to get better jobs I could probably handle that. However, that is unfortunately not the case.
We have several thousand border patrol agents on the US Mexican border right now and it is not getting the job done. Is this the only step we need to take to improve national security and public safety in a post 9/11 world? Of course it is not. However, if we can prevent most of that 750,000 from sneaking in then to me, it is a good use of money and I am more than happy to send in my $30.00 that it will cost per person in the US right now... Money has certainly been spent on more wasteful and less important things than this...
To me there's more to securing the mexico border than just security and terrorist threat. Action based solely on fear doesn't do it for me, I would need other incentives.
Such as...
None of the illegal immigrants that come in have to pay taxes.
Yeah, no big deal some people say. If they even think of it. But they use all sorts of government provided services, school, healthcare, etc. Most people think of these as free... but it's not. It's paid for by taxes.
Not only that, but often times the illegal immigrants are merely working to get money to send back home to family in mexico.
All in all it'll add up to a serious drain on US economy and resources.
Came across these online today
http://host295.ipowerweb.com/~lawatchd/videoclips/Cebeda7-4-96.WMV
http://kirkbytv.com/Video/Teaser1_15fps.wmv
http://kirkbytv.com/Video/Teaser2_15fps.wmv
http://kirkbytv.com/Video/Teaser3_15fps.wmv
http://kirkbytv.com/Video/BaldwinParkII_320x240.wmv
http://media.putfile.com/scene2
http://media.putfile.com/scene3
Makes ya feel all warm and cozy dont it? <-sarcasm
s.henson
10-07-2005, 16:33
Yeah, I got no problem with someone coming here to make a better life for themselves, but they should have to follow all of the same laws I do. One more reason to do away with income taxes and have a flat sales tax.
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