Q: about xingyi-hips and shoulders

[thejimbo]

I've been practising xingyi for about 2 years or so, before that I did jeet kun do for around a year( not that seriously though) and american boxing for about 4-5 months for a fight/match. my question is: when you punch in xingyi ( any info from other IMAs would be helpful too) do your hips and shoulders seperate at all ( like a boxers would). I was under the impression that it needs to be completely connected. when I finish my punch/attack my belly button/hips and solar plexus/chest and shoulders are in line with each other. using this method it seems to be easier to generate relaxed power,assuming my hips are flexible enough to rotate any given amount, but the other way seems more natural. I know you could get a little more reach by twisting your chest/shoulders a little further than your hips but I'm more interested in the proper technique. At present ,though its been a while since i've hit anything-punching bag ect..., I think I would hit harder, and with less tension in my back, by keeping my hips and shoulders in line, but again, proper technique is my concern. by the way I currently have no teacher to help me so any help is very much appreciated. Thanks.

[planetman]

hey thejimbo: yeah it all needs to be connect to transfer that power from the rear foot right up to the shoulder through the arm and out the fist. It is the torque that gives the power. It seems as long as your rear foot is planted into the earth and lead with your hips pushing forward, then turning the trunk you get alot of power outward. happy practicing!

[Sochin]

Its much more complicated than that,

the hips are nothing in internal power creation, all is in the rotation of all the various body parts at once, not in a concerted snap in the same direction, like karate. Some of the rotation is away from the target.

[planetman]

very interesting observation that the hips are nothing in internal power creation. Do not the hips connect the upper and lower parts of the body? Also, is it not inside the hips where the the tan tien is located? You are correct, it is far more complicated than simply nothing!

[thejimbo]

I know there is more to power generation than just the hips I was just wondering about this one connection in peticular.

[Sochin]

The hips are just another joint, like the ankle and knees. They must be flexible and the sc joint loose and mobile but the power comes from the flexibility and internal "lining up of the power lines" rather than any specific movement by the hips. Much more important is the movement of the kwa, kua, qua qwa...

[thejimbo]

let me get more specific, in order to turn and keep my torso aligned, Hips/shoulders, the kua must be very flexible this is currently how I practice. My kua ( I am not sure how deep I am actually working but I might say hip flexer also) is fairly flexible, which of coarse increases power(lets me turn further). sometimes I do exercises that focus on increasing kua/hipflexor flexibility, but again, is it technically okay to turn my shoulders a little farther than my hips or should I continue to keep them completely together? I am just looking for a simple answer to this one question based on internal principles.

[Dan Harden]

I agree with Ted. But there is power outside a Chinese classic form isn't there? I know little or nothing about the chinese arts but since you are asking about a western style boxers punch with IMA principles - consider this. Your connectedness in a "proper form" may be forward, with a bow, with a power release and yes with one rotation happening before you hit that is actually away from the target, but there are other options. If you happened to be pushed at from the side what would you do to ground out?
So.... OK, follow that path back to hit. Now turn the attacker and you to the front, have him face you, you turn the body with a leading foot and load;then hit with a relaxed but extended arm. It offers you a boxers reach while still being able to deliver power. All done without that karate hip-snap.
Other applications for power generation are myriad; from kicking to ground work to chokes. It may not look like Chinese form but the internal power is there. I could be in a top mount in grappling and use body lines and closing to smother and control and maintain the position or choke someone out-MMA style-from IMA principles.

Dan

[sean_stonehart]

Stay connected... connect the whole body & don't separate body parts.

[Sochin]

is it technically okay to turn my shoulders a little farther than my hips ...?

According to the principles of proper internal movement I was taught, no.

Any movement of a limb or shoulder separate from the generation of the movement in the tantien or the qua, is not internal, has no tai chi and is a sign of bad form, and will have no internal power.

[Dan Harden]

According to the principles of proper internal movement I was taught, no.

Any movement of a limb or shoulder separate from the generation of the movement in the tantien or the qua, is not internal, has no tai chi and is a sign of bad form, and will have no internal power.


While he did talk of not being connected shoulder to hip-it is not what I meant
If he was grappling and he is already standing with one leg forward and one shoulder forward the connectdness is there without isolated shoulder movement. You would be in a similar stance with a spear. From there if he were being grabbed he can;
Use that connection point for a ground path to resist a throw without moving.
Use reverse breathing, load and throw with that same point from the leading arm that was touched without moving it.
Or use that same structure to hit. The power would still be connected, would not move without the ground, breath and body.

So just as well.... it is a throw-point- or it could be a punch. All with the body connected, hip and shoulder foward for more reach instead of squared.
It is a method we train in- that the touch is a path, a throw, or a punch using the same connection in the body. Grappling and boxing in the same mechanic.

cheers
Dan