feeling guilty submitting a higher belt?

[sprite]

would any of you feel bad or guilty if you would somehow make a higher ranking belt submit to you?

or would you lose on purpose even though you see an opening for victory?

[Tony Dismukes]

Why in the world would you feel guilty or pass up the chance to submit a higher belt? You should feel happy. That's what you're supposed to be working towards.

[sooner_sadiq]

yeah i play to win not make someone else feel better. plus if i dont go all out then the higher rank doesnt get better either.

[ChampNtraining]

One of the worst things you can do to a serious martial artist is willfully submit to them during sparring or "let" them get into a good position to lock you up. It's greatly disparriging to the person you're lettting win and counter productive to the purpose of sparring.

You're doing them a disservice by letting them, or anyone, have easy wins. Most people are there to get better and improve on their awareness and technique. Letting them win gives them a false sense of security and a false sense of their abilites which can be dissasterous if they apply those same techniques in an official competetion match, or prove to be fatal if they reluctantly are forced to use those same weak techniques in a real life confrontation.

I can understand your apprehension of feeling you should let your dojo supperiors feel as if they should always have the upper hand, which is a natural feeling for many people to have and it shows you don't posess an overblown ego which is good thing for any martial artitst to not have :) . But like I said, you're hurting them by not giving it your all and displaying to them that their their current technique is innefective.

Personally I love sparring against others that constantly beat me rather than always getting an easy win. I'm there to get better not bore myself to death by never recieving a challenge.

[sprite]

i say this because it seems that all of the higher ranking people i spar with are reluctant to submit to a stripeless white belt. one time i was sparring with a higher ranking dude i was on back of him choking him with his own gi with my knee to his back... he kept fighting and fighting until he went unconscious and started to have spasms. i was scared for him. and it made me reflect that higher rankers do not like to lose to lower rankers and would maybe be willing to die than to face disgrace.

[Antares33]

i say this because it seems that all of the higher ranking people i spar with are reluctant to submit to a stripeless white belt. one time i was sparring with a higher ranking dude i was on back of him choking him with his own gi with my knee to his back... he kept fighting and fighting until he went unconscious and started to have spasms. i was scared for him. and it made me reflect that higher rankers do not like to lose to lower rankers and would maybe be willing to die than to face disgrace.

:confused:


Most people are reluctant to submit to anyone especially lower belts, though I don't think ayone where I train would be willing to get choked out before tapping to a white belt.

The goal of training is to get better, not to win every time.

[FunSPE]

Tapping a higher belt (as well as tapping to a lower belt) should not be frowned upon. Its a natural part of training. Every higher rank has tapped to a lower rank at some time or another. As an intructor, you should take some pride if your student taps you becasue it can be a testimant to your teaching ability, it shows that your student is growing technically. Now, I never just let people get easy taps; if they catch me in something, im going to make them work other wise Im helping no one. People who have a problem with this have this thing called ego :). As the Machados say (and others have said this too), "leave your ego at the door"...makes learning a lot easier and much more fun. If a lower rank catches me, I'll tap, smile, say good job and we get to play again.

FunSPE

[Andrew Green]

i say this because it seems that all of the higher ranking people i spar with are reluctant to submit to a stripeless white belt.

Which is the biggest problem that belts cause when it comes to progressing.

Those higher belts should be experimenting and trying new things, not having to "defend their rank".

Everyone taps to everyone, that is the best way to progress.

[cuguacuarana]

One of the worst things you can do to a serious martial artist is willfully submit to them during sparring or "let" them get into a good position to lock you up. It's greatly disparriging to the person you're lettting win and counter productive to the purpose of sparring.

I don't know if this is always true. If I am rolling with someone who I can easily tap, I sometimes take it down a notch and sort of slow roll so they can get the experience of a good match. Especially if the person I'm rolling with is really close to getting a hard technique, I don't give them 100 percent resistance. Its not that I feel guilty, its just that I think its good to give them an opportunity to feel what its like to execute a technique or get a good position on someone in a real match, especially when I would totally dominate them otherwise. Its beneficial for me too, because I work on relaxing and flowing, or working techniques that I am not as good at, techniques that I wouldn't try against a tougher opponent. When we do guard passing and I am paired with a newer student, I often try and hold guard without using my hands, this is good for my game and good for theirs since they don't gain anything from never passing my guard.

As for submitting higher ranking students. You should be proud to do so. Its his responsibility to submit when you have him, and if he passes out instead, thats his fault. I would expect a higher ranking student to be more able to swallow his pride and tap when he is beaten.

[cuguacuarana]

One of the worst things you can do to a serious martial artist is willfully submit to them during sparring or "let" them get into a good position to lock you up. It's greatly disparriging to the person you're lettting win and counter productive to the purpose of sparring.

I don't know if this is always true. If I am rolling with someone who I can easily tap, I sometimes take it down a notch and sort of slow roll so they can get the experience of a good match. Especially if the person I'm rolling with is really close to getting a hard technique, I don't give them 100 percent resistance. Its not that I feel guilty, its just that I think its good to give them an opportunity to feel what its like to execute a technique or get a good position on someone in a real match, especially when I would totally dominate them otherwise. Its beneficial for me too, because I work on relaxing and flowing, or working techniques that I am not as good at, techniques that I wouldn't try against a tougher opponent. When we do guard passing and I am paired with a newer student, I often try and hold guard without using my hands, this is good for my game and good for theirs since they don't gain anything from never passing my guard.

As for submitting higher ranking students. You should be proud to do so. Its his responsibility to submit when you have him, and if he passes out instead, thats his fault. I would expect a higher ranking student to be more able to swallow his pride and tap when he is beaten.

[ChampNtraining]

I should have clarrified what I meant. You shouldn't throw the fight to let your opponent win as you would lose a poker game against your boss because you're scared of losing your job if his pride gets hurt. I have nothing against letting your opponent get in a good position for the sake of you both to practice technique . But giving up entirely every time you have the advantage just so the result always ends with the higher ranking belt winning every match does nothing to help either of you.

When I stop to think about it, I'm not much of a fan of people practicing technical skills on me when we're doing open mat. What on earth would they get out of arm or leg barring me for 20 minutes if they can't even pass my guard. Practice sprawling and passing me then you can practice sumbits on me. I see others on the mat letting their opponent work on anything they like, but I'm a focused competitor and my view is if you arent good at step 1 and are iffy on step 2, then don't go stumbling on to step 3. A few people don't want to hit the mat with me because of that but others jump at the chance because of it. With the guys in my class, they know I'm going to exploit and brutalise their weaknesses until they learn to make them their strengths. I won't give them any free rides on the mat because their opponent in an official competition surely won't either.

But if Sprite meant to pose the original question casually then my strict mindset would be a little harsh in which case there's no problem with everyone doing a little bit of give and take on the mat :)

[khaynie]

I have never intentionally thrown a fight to a lower rank. I have to agree with the others, that it is a good time for me to work on more complex tecniques we've been covering in the advanced classes that wouldnt work on the upper ranks without exact execution, I also take the time to work positions I am uncomfortable in or need work in guard, top mount escapes, side mount escapes, so If I tap, its because yes this guys game is getting better, and I still need work, its good for both of us....but hell yeah, lots of ego when it comes to tapping, even my instructor will be like damn keith what are you doing, but I have to work on these things you know, conversely when its me tapping the upper ranks, than the same goes. I did tap a guy the other day, same rank as me, but had been top dog for awhile (assistant instructor for the stand up classes)...he almost passed out too, and came up swinging after he did tap. I just took right back to him and controlled him till he could calm down (he's an old pro boxer...too many knots on his head). When I roll with the black belts, brown or really fluid purples, sometimes I find myself awestruck and not concentrating you know. We have a visiting Brown belt from Brazil who's getting his black in December, he is awesome and so technical and spins my 205# butt around like nothing...its hard to focus when someone is doing techniques on you you've only seen in books ya know? My instructor will yell at me, come on man, focus...and Ill snap out of it. Crazy.

Keith

[Jeff C.]

I've tapped out a few people who outranked me. I felt elation and pure terror.

If you happen to catch certain well-known black belts in a submission hold, it is an unwritten rule to not tap them, though.

Jeff Cook

[WhiteBeltJones]

If you happen to catch certain well-known black belts in a submission hold, it is an unwritten rule to not tap them, though.


Could you elaborate on that one Jeff? It seems to run counter to what little I know of BJJ philosophy.

[moogong]

If you happen to catch certain well-known black belts in a submission hold, it is an unwritten rule to not tap them, though.

Jeff Cook


Haha..otherwise they might not do another seminar at your academy. :laugh:

[kmtsd]

I don't wrestle but when it comes to fighting and rank I tell my students this:
If you can knock out/beat-up a blackbelt good for you! please try.
If one of my black belts beats up a lower belt-I will kick them around or atleast make them do some squat jumps to remember control.

If a lower belt is able to win against an upper belt-that's great..now everyone has someone new to practice with!

Jeff made me chuckle- I too have also experienced great happiness followed by an immediate "Oh S**t" when beating a higher rank. :laugh:

[Jeff C.]

Candace, you know exactly what I mean! I am glad somebody out there does. I don't feel so alone now.....;)

Kurt, I don't really want to elaborate. Charles knows what/who I am talking about, I think, but I have heard it is a good general rule to abide by. I personally strongly disagree with it, but hey, I am kinda attached to my limbs (at the moment, anyway)! ;) I will say that Charles DosAnjos does not mind tapping to a lower belt - but I have not had the fortune nor terror of having done so.

Jeff Cook

[Erik]

Just be a good sportsman about it.

You got him - great. He'll sulk, which he should, but be gracious, nice, and don't make a big deal. You could even say that you got lucky - you had an opening and you recognized it (for once :) ).

Your attitude will matter most. You're all teammates so be a good one.

[Cliff Hargrave]

I never felt the least bit guilty :)

Just accept the fact that once you tap a higher belt he may want to roll with you every class for several weeks afterwards and tap you as many times as he can. I caught a few higher belts over the years and one congratulated me, told everyone in class I tapped him, didnt make excuses, and worked with me afterwards until he figured out ten different ways to defend the choke I caught him in. Another one just destroyed me every class for a month afterwards.

[TonyU]

I never felt the least bit guilty :)

Same here. I jst expect for the higher belts ot make it harder for me next time and all that can do is make my training better.
As long as you don't get cocky it can be beneficial and fun.

[doubleouch]

On a couple of occasions I have tapped out my black belt instructor. It was only after he let me get out of a few positions and was playing light with me. I caught him by suprise. Cool thing was that he didn't make a big deal of it. He didn't try to retaliate or anything. To me the tap is really just there to tell us when to stop. Putting more emphasis than that on it is giving it more attention than it deserves.

[Chrono]

I would be so lucky to go a full six minute round with my instructor and not have him tap me out. :cool:

[JackBauer]

Boy, people really should leave the ego at the door. Personally, I can't wait till the day I can start tapping blue belts. Than maybe I'll be worthy of wearing one :) For now I'm still trying to get the best of the other white belts haha.

So what if a black belt gets tapped by a lower rank? Maybe the black belt made a mistake. Happens to all of us right? It's not like the lower rank would consistently tap him out. I imagine if it did, than maybe that person has shown the level of skill that's appropriate for a promotion.

[JiuJitsuRabbit]

I have a good bit of wrestling experiance, but only about 25 hours of mat time with BJJ.

With this stated, I am alot better than most other white belts. If I know I can dominate someone, I will let them get side control. I will let them get mount. I will let them get me in a bad place.

Now the entire reason for this is so I can train escapes and reversals.

If you always dominate your partner you are short changing your training.

Point being, if you can dominate the person you are rolling with, take risks and try things that you are horrible with. This way you fail and can learn to recover.