So you're about to be attacked..

[gr455h0pp3r]

Does one always clear the mind and deal with whatever comes using his/her skills earned from hard training ? Or are there different approaches for different systems? E.g My first question is what I have been told to do in Wing Chun.

[Eye4NEye]

I'm not sure that you will always have the opportunity to "clear your mind". In the case of being attacked and not having the luxury of know that it is coming, I would think that reflex, training, and adrenaline would clear your mind for you...or make it a jumble of "fight or flight" reactions.

[Erik]

You must react immediately. There's usually no time to "clear the mind" if you've already been singled out.

There may be time to do so if you're going to join an existing fight, but if someone's coming for you, there is very little time (if any at all) to take five and set your mind right. Trying to do so is likely to result in your loosing.

[gr455h0pp3r]

This is a little off the point of your initial responses when jumped.
However, what if one has many preconceptions of what they would do if they were attacked.. Wouldnt then they have to clear their mind before thinking of defending themselves ?

You say I must react immediatly.. How do I react ? In the way that I planned to when punched at like that ?

[Kevin]

I think Eric means (please correct me if I'm wrong) if you get jumped you will react reflexively - you won't have time to develop you mental state and prepare for combat. You may never have a break to clear your mind or refocus your concentration, and may never do so, even if your training includes this step. Your reflex reaction may or may not resemble what you did in similar situations in training - not sure how accurate it will be to predict your automatic responses.

Of course, Wing Chung's emphasis on emotionless fighting (at least according to the internet) might be quite rational IF one has time to prepare for the begining of the fight.

[shevbo]

I am not able to "clear my mind". Could probably do that if I wanted to start a fight but that is just stupid.

Its more like "oh crap, its here, its now".

*smack* *smack *smack* *smack* maybe a choke or armbar if it ends up on the floor

All this would be done in a flurry I suppose. And after that I run for my life.

As Erik said, there is little time to do anything.

[Kevin]

You don't have to be the instigator to know that a fight is coming. You might clear your mind when threatened if you train yourself to (I certainly haven't).

It seems more likely that a fight will be a suprise. But that doesn't mean that you will always be caught unprepared.

[cuguacuarana]

I think the idea is that when your mind is clear you can "be in the moment" i.e. be prepared for whatever comes your way. the ideal is to live with a clear mind all the time, not simply clear your mind before engaging in something. As others have said, you wouldn't have time to do this if you were jumped.

[ChampNtraining]

Or you can be as paranoid as I am and always keep your mind clear and ready for conflict when you're in any environment that you don't have absolute control of. I'm always ready for some skydiver to parachute from above and try to beat me up because he didn't like the way the top of my head looked even when I'm walking down the street all alone in the middle of the day. Paranoia is good for you, it keeps you on your toes. :o

[khujo78]

Paranoia is good for you, it keeps you on your toes. :o

LOL...this actually makes sense in a weird way.You may not give off the best energy, but it'll be hard to sneak up on you, lol.

As far as clearing your mind, it could be as clear as air until you get hit, then you're worried about where the hit came from, when the next one will come, and how you're going to respond. If you can attain a meditative state of combat...I commend you. However instinct is the main thing that'll save you if you catch a surprise attack because the only thing that will work is some immediate response. The first thing is to try not to get into that situation. But if it happens...OVERREACT.

[gr455h0pp3r]

Knowing people who have suffered from it.. i cannot take that seriously.
paranoia is not good.

[khujo78]

Having suffered from it, I see paranoia as actually having some positives. It keeps you on your toes and aware. It keeps you finding new ways to react if attacked. It also keeps you from underreaxting. True there are alot of negatives, but its not usually the paranoid ones who are attacked

[Kevin]

I suppose this depends on the degree of paranoia.

[Erik]

You say I must react immediatly.. How do I react ? In the way that I planned to when punched at like that ?
I've found that seeing the body come in (assuming I'm lucky enough to see it coming while getting jumped, which is a big assumption) I try to fit the right reception, so to speak. Just, gosh, I've never explained this before so the words aren't coming.

I guess I see the body, what's open, and adapt to it as I would in practice. Usually, this results in a sprawl on my part or getting an overhook and an underhook, pulling down his head, and then taking him down pretty hard, more due to being clumsy and caught off-guard than due to my magnificent takedowns (all my wrestling buddies would tell you my takedowns wouldn't even work against a frosh in high school, they're that bad... :laugh: ) In any case, I sort-of try to compliment the opponent's attacking position (yeah, be like water...). It had better work - only get a second or so to make my opening move.

Also, I've used a duck-under to my left (opponent's right) successfully several times. Duck-under, get behind him, bearhug, lift and slam on the cement to my right side (which continues the motion that was started by rotating from duck-under to bearhug - if you can't visualize this someone would have to show you). This has worked for me three or four times.

Don't know why - just instinctually I guessed the right move right. Just luck, really. Greet the guy with some sort of hug, feel the familiar territory from all the grappling & wrestling, and do what we've done hundreds of times in practice, though it's always the most stupid and basic move that comes out. It seems to work, though, somehow.

Same with getting the guy on the ground, getting a nice, solid mount, and as the guy squirms letting him turn around and expose his back, sliding in my rear-naked choke, lifting his chin, flattening him out, and finding that I have somehow gained total control and have only to tighten the choke to end it. It just seems to work for me.

I really wish I could better explain the thought process - it just went automatically and on those instances the roll of the dice have favored me.

I must strongly emphasize that the alive training I do, the sport-MA, against a resisting/defending/counterattacking opponent makes a HUGE difference. Fine technique goes out the window. It's the feeling of "been here, done this, and I know what to do from here" that means a lot. It's viceral, not cerebral.

Another metaphorical way to look at it is as follows:
The guy charges. I go where he is not - if striking high, I duck-under. If going low, I underhook, sprawl, and control from there. I sort-of compliment or reciprocate his position.

From there, I do my basic grappling moves. Very simple for dumb guys (like me) with very little fine dexterity needed. Underhook, sprawl, reposition while keeping my weight on the poor dummy, sink the choke, flatten him, tighten the choke 'til he's limp, then open it a little so he comes back to life and I stay out of jail).

The whole time I'm feeling "I've been here, I have done this against better skilled and better prepared (and more sober) guys than this chump, and I know what to do next."

Sorry this post is so jumbled. This is very difficult to explain and I still don't know if I've ever done anything right - maybe I'm just lucky?

[James O'Neill]

Sounds like "flow with the go" to me buddy :wink2:

[Erik]

James, brevity is the soul of wit, and you're far wittier than I today!

:D

[aglusk]

I can attest from recent experience, that you may not have even a split second to clear your mind. Unfortunately, I didn't even really react until I had been hit several times. Then, somehow, I came out on top, though barely I think. It all happened so fast that I honestly can't tell you what all I did.

Training is great, but what happens in "real life", depends on instinct. That is why we spend so much time drilling the techniques. Eventually, much of you training will become instinct.

I hope I get there soon - I want to be better prepared if something happens again. In my other thread I detailed what happened, and Erik gave some wonderful advice on how I could do better next time.

[Dennis Monk]

If I am about to be attacked, what I hope stays with me are the following.
1. Attention to surroundings, including areas behind my attackers
2. Bystanders
3. Number of attackers
4. Muscle memory
5. Proper grip
6. Shot placement.

[Erik]

What about when unarmed, Dennis?

[poetic misjustice]

purely instincts for me, i let my training do it for me, if i think too hard about it i tend to make mistakes or hesitate which can be fatal so i simply let my body react and find the easiest solution

[GoatWrath]

Haha, You know, being a highschool student with a reputation for practicing martial art, and being a condescending elitest jerk, I'm always paranoid that someone's out for my blood. I agree strongly with Eric about fighting being instinctive, and being comfortable in close quarters making all the difference. I always take precautions to make sure that I'm fresh and ready for potential combat each day. I warm up and stretch in the mornings, and I usually wear something easily removed over an undershirt. The paranoia also helps me to watch my diet, avoid softdrinks. However, grades are also very important to me, and sometimes I end up staying up all night doing homework...or I run out of suitable food or clothes...Maybe I have an injury from overtraining. Most days, I'm ready to throw off my shirt, and I'm already warmed, flexible, and ready to fight. But others, heh, I'm really out of it. On those days however, I'm always really paranoid. I like to think that having a strategy, and keeping potential factors in mind always leaves you several steps above the rest. Let alone having experience training. I just want to bring the attention away from what you do on the spur of the moment, to the factors that determine that, and how you can prepare beforehand. (Drink water, get lots of rest, stay warmed up and limber, dress for combat, and actively think about it.)

[John Lucas]

Hopefully you don't get jumped when your shirt is still halfway off...Wouldn't it be a little smarter to just keep it on and know you aren't taking your eyes off the "attacker."

If I wanted to go around talking trash and looking better than anyone else I would just wear some steel shoes and give my opponents a preemptive kick to the knee. If you're going to school looking for fights, and are a self-proclaimed "elitist" its only a matter of time before you learn about what's known as a "Multiple attacker situation." Theres not much the martial arts are going to help you with when you go around looking for fights.

[Dennis Monk]

Theres not much the martial arts are going to help you with when you go around looking for fights.
Nor will there be many martial arts instructors to teach him, when they discover his attitude.

[GoatWrath]

Eh, I don't go around looking for fights, I just said I stay prepared for them. The elitest thing has nothing to do with wanting to fight, that's just the way I am. I don't keep my martial arts a secret either, theres a group of people I talk with about it every day after school. Looking for a fight and being prepared are two completely different things. I keep myself prepared. Also, about the shirt, it takes less than one second to get an arm out of an opened button up shirt, and then all you have to do is sling it off the other hand. I don't go around talking trash about people either, so trash talking isn't the word. Being an elitest and talking trash are not the same thing. If I do end up in a multiple attacker situation, I'd run. Good thing I keep myself in cardiovascular shape, I'd say. And about instructors not wanting to teach me, that's not true. I'm very humble in a training environment, and I'm a generally friendly person. It's not really an issue, since I do martial arts freelance. There are only a few mcdojos in my town anyway.

[Dennis Monk]

I have met many self proclaimed elitests in my day who are really, really nice people and are easy to get along with.

Not!

[Nin]

Sorry for my ignorance but what's an "elitest"? :confused:

[Jeff C.]

Goat, you are 16, you are not a "martial artist," and you do not "practice martial arts." Consider this to be a training environment; let's see how "very humble" a condescending elitist jerk like you can be.

Jeff Cook

[Abbax8]

99% of the fights I have had were at work, a state hospital setting. The attacks were usually sudden, varied and often blind sided. What I found was, that when attacked I always managed to use my favorite techniques that I had trained continuously in the dojo. No thought was involved, just reaction. Just my experiance.

Peace

Dennis

[nirgle]

That's interesting. I also find myself making small tweaks to my lifestyle: no longer wearing pants that do not give me full flexibility when I may instantly need it, taking a stance (probably unseeable to the public) before opening the mall door to push it with my center rather than with my hands/arms, dropping into a deeeep back-stance when putting things in the oven at home rather than simply leaning over it and risking falling over the open door, and just general situational awareness like checking for wet spots on the floor when i enter a building (I wear industrial-grade slip-resistant footwear thanks to my old job; if I was threatened and had the time, the first thing I would do is jump into the nearest puddle and simply wait.

[Peter Rehse]

Does one always clear the mind and deal with whatever comes using his/her skills earned from hard training ? Or are there different approaches for different systems? E.g My first question is what I have been told to do in Wing Chun.


You must react immediately. There's usually no time to "clear the mind" if you've already been singled out.

To build on Erik's answer the idea of Mushin (Clear/Empty Mind) is that you maintain that state at all times. If you manage to do that there is no need to clear your mind. Mushin is one of those things that spills over from the dojo into all walks of life and is a great thing to cultivate.

With regards to paranoia some call it hightened awareness and that is not necessarily a bad thing. It should be controlled and not interfere with your ability to live a normal life.

[Peter Rehse]

Sorry for my ignorance but what's an "elitest"? :confused:
Really good question.

In France you have elite schools like the Ecole Polytechnique. Now if you graduated from there and you only associated with people of that background you would be considered "elitest". The thing is this posture is usually assumed by the mediocre graduates of the institution probably as a defense mechanism against their own feelings of inadequacy.

It gets really silly when people put on those airs without any sort of elite background but that is usually done for similar reasons.

[rgoad]

Nin, 'elitist' is opposite of égalitaire. Someone who thinks they have nothing to learn from a school and lable it mcdojo. ;)

[Nin]

Thank you both Peter and Richard. :bow: The definition is almost the same and the word as well in French (élitiste).

[Mark Barlow]

Unfortunately, when most people claim to be elitest, what they actually mean is that they have an over-inflated view of themselves, completely out of touch with reality, delusions of adequacy.

[Peter Rehse]

Unfortunately, when most people claim to be elitest, what they actually mean is that they have an over-inflated view of themselves, completely out of touch with reality, delusions of adequacy.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
They actually mean what they say - or at least end of believing it.

What they actually are is what you describe.

Its my morning to be pendantic.

Cheers

[TogaAssassin]

Perhaps one of the most valuable things my Kali Guro has yet to teach me is that there should always be a small part of your mind that is constantly training. In the corner of my mind, IMO on the verge of perceptible, thought is another me mercilessly beating and killing thousands of imaginary thought people a day. This technique helps seperate reactionary based combat mentality from the mentality of everyday life. I don't need to worry about being ready to fight because the part of my brain that does the fighting is already doing it :) Granted I'm not the best with this technique (however over the past 3 years or so it's an ability that has come leaps and bounds IMO).

From what I understand this skill is paramount to the "out of body" combat experiance that many serious martial artists have conveyed to me (where they feel almost as if concious thought is analyzing conflict from a third person view during the fight, while their body simply defends itself). I actually think this has been mentioned a few times in this thread (as this is hardly an exclusive JKD/kali thing, every martial art I have trained has had this in one way or another).

On a side note man I would be carefull about going around bragging that you know martial arts. IMO to reveal your art is to reveal your weakness. One of the whole ideas behind "closed system" martial arts (like what you see in china and indonesia and, from what I understand a lesser extent in japan) is that by knowing your technique your oppenent knows your weakness. The system is "closed" to ensure it stays valid against other incumbent systems of fighting.

BTW I agree with what was said above this is as much of a training enviroment as a dojo or gym is IRL, train the body and train the mind, complete martial arts :)

[John Lucas]

I have had "out of body" combat before, but only because I was unconcious.

I'm not trying to say its imposslbe for anybody else, but I dont think I have experienced anything like that. I think you are referring more to what I think comes with study of body mechanics, knowing where your opponent is going to attack before you see the actual weapon move, because you understand how to react to more minor things like a twitch of certain areas of the body, such as the head, shoulders, hips, and sometimes their feet.

[Dion Wilbur]

As a Martial Artist I feel you must have a mindset where your ready to go at anytime, always aware of your surroundings, the people around, the buildings, where people could hide and jump you e.t.c. e.t.c... if you train in the Martial arts for awhile you will develope this sense of awarness or atleast you should..

[Yang Wei Xin]

purely instincts for me, i let my training do it for me, if i think too hard about it i tend to make mistakes or hesitate which can be fatal so i simply let my body react and find the easiest solution

sounds about right, its hard to do any proper thinking after getting sucker punched, and who wants to take that extra second to think when the second punch is on its way.

[TogaAssassin]

I have had "out of body" combat before, but only because I was unconcious.

I'm not trying to say its imposslbe for anybody else, but I dont think I have experienced anything like that. I think you are referring more to what I think comes with study of body mechanics, knowing where your opponent is going to attack before you see the actual weapon move, because you understand how to react to more minor things like a twitch of certain areas of the body, such as the head, shoulders, hips, and sometimes their feet.

I was thinking basically the same thing. They explain it as an almost 3rd person style of thinking since basic self defense is just mechinical body reactions. I highly doubt it is possible to have an "out of body experiance" but it is possible to pschologically detach. It's something everyone has been "training" since they where very young be it on an unconcious level :)

[SilentEvil2]

Well when I'm attacked on the street or what not I ussally stick to boxing or Muay Thai, because it's more street prone. Best suggested is to shuffle back (if theres some space) to get a clear understanding of your attacker and getting a sense of being abeal to defend yourself. If there is no space, untilize the rope a dope, or wall a dope. Low kicks, pressure points get them to step back, then set them up with the Jab, Straight, hook.

[MMAfighter]

depends mainly i'd either cove rup or....rUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUN

[Aaron T Fields]

clear my mind...nope I piss my pants and start drooling. Body fluid contact baby...scares them away everytime. Dry-cleaning bills are a bit steep, but whatever.

Aaron Fields
www.seattle-jujutsu.org
Sea-Town Sombo
www.seattle-jujutsu.org

[Kimpatsu]

So your about to be attacked...
My what is about to be attacked, Ryan? :D

[Ninjalord]

I have been in several fights before, including one fight, that i was not expecting, and in that particular fight, a knife was put into the mix, my mind went into overdrive at that point, and i let all my training take over, and im here to tell you, you never know what your going to do untill you are there. My advice, take the fight to the ground as quickly as possable, and then go from there.

[TonyU]

My advice, take the fight to the ground as quickly as possable, and then go from there.
:eek:
With a knife...? I don't think so.

I'll be nice, but do me a favor and don't make comments like that here.
We have alot of impressionable kids here who would take comments like that to heart.
A knife gets thrown into the mix, and you're unarmed you're best bet is to disengage and run.
Never fight a knife fighter.

[Mark Barlow]

Tony is right on the money. Anytime you go to the ground you've asked the attacker's friends, family and bored bystanders to kick you to the death. I like what Gene LeBell says about groundfighting for self defense, "90% of fights end up on the ground but 100% of them start standing up." I'm going to do my very best to stay on my feet the whole time.

[WhiteBeltJones]

Anytime you go to the ground you've asked the attacker's friends, family and bored bystanders to kick you to the death.

Can we get that framed or something?

There's a big disconnect between what's effective in a sanctioned one-on-one match and what happens in a fight where somebody is actually trying to hurt/kill/maim you.

Frankly, the realities of a "street fight" scare the hell out of me. Moreso when I imagine my family somehow in the line of fire.

[DragonMind]

Tony, I'd even go one step further and say never fight a knife, whatever the training of the person wielding it, unless it is the only thing preventing your imminent demise. You're right on, going to the ground with a blade involved is the idiot-side corollary to "never bring a knife to a gunfight".

[Mark Barlow]

At close range, I'd rather face a gun than a knife any day. Bladed weapons scare the bejesus out of me, even though I've dealt with them a time or two. I tell my students that Nike Ryu is the best defense and that I'll only go against a somebody with a knife if they're between me and the buffet table.

[Gene Williams]

There is way too much talk about "real life," "actual combat," and "what I would do if attacked." You don't know what you would do, none of us does. I hate these kinds of discussions. The vast majority of us do not live each day expecting to be attacked. The only people that seriously expect and prepare for that in civilian life are police officers. The other group is soldiers in combat zones. Certainly training is important, and fighting under controlled conditions is also important. Keeping yourself in good physical condition is of utmost importance, and many I see who call themselves martial artists do not do so. The fact is, the dojo/ring/mat does not translate to real life that well.
A serious attacker will always make sure the odds are in his favor. You will be attacked suddenly, quickly, perhaps by surprise, when you are least expecting it and most vulnerable. The attacker may have a weapon; there may be two or three attackers.
Do not fool yourself into thinking that you can handle a knife wielding attacker because you have done some knife defense in the dojo. A sharp knife in the hands of someone who doesn't mind killing you is a deadly weapon. You have read news article after news article about good policemen who were killed or overpowered by a single attacker with nothing to lose. You watch cops on tv...look at how many men it takes sometime to subdue one criminal...and these are trained police officers. Thugs and street criminals do not know dojo etiquette. They are clever, sneaky...survivors. They are not scared of the police, the courts, prison, the death penalty...and they damn sure aren't scared of any karateka/BJJ/boxer/MMA/aikidoka.
Certainly, training and mock combat give us some advantage over the average person. Learning common sense "street awareness" is essential. But, decent, civilized people, even martial artists, are still at a disadvantage against the criminal element. Most of you are good, decent people. You work middle class jobs and live in good neighborhoods. Some of you are university professors. You send your kids to school and have the money to pay for martial arts classes. You've never been hungry, desperate, or on the run...you have never had to live in the world of gangs and the street, fighting for your own life.
It has been 36 years since I have had any "combat alertness," feared for my life, hit the deck trembling, or fired a round in anger. I have been in karate for over 30 years, regular training, and would probably be at a real disadvantage against a serious, armed street wise attacker, or more than one unarmed. I am licensed to carry concealed and, believe me, I do. THAT is what I do in the street...and I fear I would be a little too quick on the trigger sometimes.
So, sober up...quit playing "vigilante" in your mind, and listen to guys like Urena and these other cops who have seen the street. Most of the rest of you are "kuchi bushi," dojo warriors, ring rumblers, mat mavens. It ain't real life. :bow:

[Cliff Hargrave]

I wanted to add something but I think ya'll covered it pretty good.

[Ninjalord]

First. let me appoligize, i meant no disrespect. I agree 100% that if you have the chance, against a blade, try to get away as fast as possable. I however did not have the oppertunity, since it happened on my own front porch, and I have the scars to prove it, so I'm honestly not trying to blow smoke. Everything you guys said makes perfect sense, if the oppertunity arises, but sometimes you dont get that chance. I don't like having to really fight someone. Somebody always gets hurt. Again, it is not my intention to be disrepectful. I have full confidence in all of ya'll's ability and experience. I was simply trying to add my own.

Sam Peacock

[DragonMind]

First. let me appoligize, i meant no disrespect. I agree 100% that if you have the chance, against a blade, try to get away as fast as possable. I however did not have the oppertunity, since it happened on my own front porch, and I have the scars to prove it, so I'm honestly not trying to blow smoke. Everything you guys said makes perfect sense, if the oppertunity arises, but sometimes you dont get that chance. I don't like having to really fight someone. Somebody always gets hurt. Again, it is not my intention to be disrepectful. I have full confidence in all of ya'll's ability and experience. I was simply trying to add my own.

Sam Peacock
I didn't find your comments disrespectful, simply ill-advised. Gene's comments certainly apply to many people but not all. Some of us have faced lethal-force level encounters and assaults but are neither LEO nor military. It may be due to living circumstances or employment. For whatever reason, if you truly need the skills to defend yourself from attack (as opposed to a fight), you need to make your training as real as possible. Generally that means ignoring all the crap you hear in dojos about the invincibility of their techniques and how their "cat-like reflexes" will let them disarm 27 armed ninjas. Take a look at Steyr's thread on 20 dead BBs.

Like Gene, I don't go anywhere unarmed - in fact, with multiple weapons. I don't carry a firearm (usually) because I don't have the resources to maintain the skill level to use it properly and because I'm more comfortable with a blade. I've even used my blade as a psychological deterrent. Mark nailed it; most people are more afraid of a blade than a gun. The last time I faced a gun, the sound and light shining off my blade as it snapped open convinced the fellow that I was not going to be an easy target.

[Gene Williams]

I didn't find your comments disrespectful, simply ill-advised. Gene's comments certainly apply to many people but not all. Some of us have faced lethal-force level encounters and assaults but are neither LEO nor military. It may be due to living circumstances or employment. For whatever reason, if you truly need the skills to defend yourself from attack (as opposed to a fight), you need to make your training as real as possible. Generally that means ignoring all the crap you hear in dojos about the invincibility of their techniques and how their "cat-like reflexes" will let them disarm 27 armed ninjas. Take a look at Steyr's thread on 20 dead BBs.

Like Gene, I don't go anywhere unarmed - in fact, with multiple weapons. I don't carry a firearm (usually) because I don't have the resources to maintain the skill level to use it properly and because I'm more comfortable with a blade. I've even used my blade as a psychological deterrent. Mark nailed it; most people are more afraid of a blade than a gun. The last time I faced a gun, the sound and light shining off my blade as it snapped open convinced the fellow that I was not going to be an easy target.


Whatever. I am not more afraid of a blade than I am a pistol. No one else is, either. I find your last example of light shining off your blade a bit of a stretch. The snap of your blade opening and the report of my 1911A would have been simultaneous...no one would have heard your knife, though. :D

[Mark Barlow]

At close range, I would prefer to face a handgun rather than a knife. Truth be told, I'd rather not face either but scuffling with a blade pretty much guarantees one or both of us are going to get cut. The older I get, the less inclined I am to test the good will of the cosmos towards me. As long as me or mine are not threatened, I'm pretty much willing to turn the other cheek.

[Gene Williams]

Yep. Me, too.

[David Craik]

I think that a lot of people will have a stronger reaction to an edged weapon, even though if given the conscious choice of being cut or shot would pick the former. People can relate to the pain of being cut and the shock of bleeding profusely because they have experienced it, whereas most people have never been shot. They see the gun and know it can kill them but have no firsthand knowledge of what it's like, much like a person who has been badly bitten by a dog will likely have a greater subconcious fear response upon seeing a big dog than seeing a bear. At least this is what I believe, perhaps I'm off the mark.

I always have a knife, though mainly for more pedestrian purposes than hacking up ne'er-do-wells. I hardly ever carry a gun, as the extremely slim chance of being attacked in this podunk town - especially given my profoundly "boring" choice of off-duty activities - isn't really worth the discomfort of having a heavy auto or revolver slapping me in the ribcage all the time. Had enough of that these past 7 months or so :D

[Erik]

Could a moderator PLEASE change the "your" to "you're" in the title?!?

This is giving me a nervous twitch... :eek:

(Sorry - OCD).

[TonyU]

Could a moderator PLEASE change the "your" to "you're" in the title?!?

This is giving me a nervous twitch... :eek:

(Sorry - OCD).
Sorry I tried, but it appears to be too old a thread.

[David Craik]

Could a moderator PLEASE change the "your" to "you're" in the title?!?

This is giving me a nervous twitch... :eek:

(Sorry - OCD).

Done. It's one of my peeves as well, right up there with using an apostrophe "s" to indicate a plural.

[Si Xing]

At close range, I would prefer to face a handgun rather than a knife. Truth be told, I'd rather not face either but scuffling with a blade pretty much guarantees one or both of us are going to get cut. The older I get, the less inclined I am to test the good will of the cosmos towards me. As long as me or mine are not threatened, I'm pretty much willing to turn the other cheek.
i believe that that it really shouldnt matter. if somone has a gun in your face, it can be possible to break the enemys arm, or steal the gun. same way with a weapon other than a gun. if somone strike at you, then that is there disadvantage because you can follow up with some move to counter what they threw at you.

[TonyU]

i believe that that it really shouldnt matter. if somone has a gun in your face, it can be possible to break the enemys arm, or steal the gun. same way with a weapon other than a gun. if somone strike at you, then that is there disadvantage because you can follow up with some move to counter what they threw at you.
Huh, can you explain that?
It should matter. You can't treat all weapon defenses the same.

A gun for all intent and purpose can only seriously hurt you form the muzzle end, that means that you have to be in front of it.
Noone is going to leave that hand out there for you to break it unless you trap it.
If you miss, the act of them pulling the gun back to them is not going to hurt you unless you're back to being in front of the muzzle again.

A knife can hurt you on the way in and on the way back.

If I absolutely positvely had to choose between the two, I'll take the gun.

[Si Xing]

i didnt think of it at that point sorry, but what i posted could be a scenario. if the chance is there it can be taken, and hopefully achieved.

[Mark Barlow]

We're getting into the "Age & experience" vs. "I saw something neat on TV" debate. I have a hard time taking advice regarding handguns and knife defense seriously from kids. There are few enough adults with decades of training who can teach a practical and effective approach because, trust me, it's harder than it looks.

I'm not knocking anyone in particular, only the misconception by many that just because you can offer your opinion, it must be worth something.

[David Craik]

As long as all they want is something material and it isn't apparent that they're going to shoot or knife me anyway, my defense will be the same..give them what they want and/or run like hell. I ain't chancing it unless there's no other choice.

I'm with Tony, with the possible exception of a short-barreled shotgun a firearm can only do damage along a single, narrow axis. A blade has a much wider danger area and can easily cut and puncture from multiple angles and axes. It's an old saw, but a true one, that if you tangle with a knife fighter it's not a question of if you'll be cut, only when and how bad. Not that facing a gun is a real great proposition either.

[Gene Williams]

But, most people who know how to use a gun will stay at a distance that is advantageous to them and keep the firearm protected. Up close, yeah, a knife may actually be more dangerous. I guess I'm including the distance factor in my thinking about a handgun.

[Mark Barlow]

I'm sure the LEOs here will correct me if I'm wrong but I've heard and read that most handguns are used from 6 feet away or less. While it's not an easy gap to cross, it is doable.

[David Craik]

But, most people who know how to use a gun will stay at a distance that is advantageous to them and keep the firearm protected. Up close, yeah, a knife may actually be more dangerous. I guess I'm including the distance factor in my thinking about a handgun.

Yeah, I meant within arm's reach where any appreciable gap doesn't need to be closed. There's really so many variables of stance, grip, reach, competance, etc. that it's kind of difficult to draw any absolutes.

[Ninjalord]

Huh, can you explain that?
It should matter. You can't treat all weapon defenses the same.

A gun for all intent and purpose can only seriously hurt you form the muzzle end, that means that you have to be in front of it.
Noone is going to leave that hand out there for you to break it unless you trap it.
If you miss, the act of them pulling the gun back to them is not going to hurt you unless you're back to being in front of the muzzle again.

A knife can hurt you on the way in and on the way back.

If I absolutely positvely had to choose between the two, I'll take the gun.

I have to say i agree with Tony here, you can't treat all wepon defenses the same, because no two attacks will ever be the same. My first choice is to give someone what they ask for, I only worry about fighting them if they try to get realy physical, and to do that, they have to get in arms reach, that is the only constant in any situation, arms reach. Once they are in arms reach, type of wepon, and postioning generally determine the course of action. While one can never truly predict what will happen, as long as they stay out of arms reach, i'll just give them what they want. Inside arms reach is a totally different story.

[Si Xing]

well i didnt put thought into my response, now that i think of it, this is all true. if you are looking down a barrel maybe you should carry a gun of your own just incase, or accept your fate, or jump out of the way and hide

[Rion Mugen Lee]

I don't like how you people underestimate the power of training. If you train to be continually alert, then you can't ever be caught off guard. You are continually ready.

Bruce Lee
-"A martial artist does not become tense, but ready."

This statement not only implies what a martial artist does during a fight, but also describes the change seen throughout a martial artists path to enlightenment.

[Rion Mugen Lee]

If you have to choose the cheapest weapon in order to win a fight, like a gun, then you shouldn't even be fighting. In fact, it would be better not to choose either weapon until you fully analyze the situation. For example:
Tons of soldiers W/ guns are coming straight at you. They also have bazookas. What do you do?
A.)Kick one of the soldiers, take his gun or bazooka, and proceed to take on the masses?
B.)Pull out your sword and proceed to take on the masses?
C.)Talk to the general and tell him you want to join...(a.k.a.-be dishonorable)
D.)Flee for the reason that you are outnumbered 100,000 to one.

Seriously, the most practical and safe and honorable decision would be D.)Flee for the reason that you are outnumbered 100,000 to one. In this case you would not choose weapons but would instead choose the most prompt and spontaneous decision, to leave before your utter demise becomes a reality.

[Ninjalord]

I think anything that could be said on this subject has already been said...let a sleeping dog lay.

[Cliff Hargrave]

I don't like how you people underestimate the power of training. If you train to be continually alert, then you can't ever be caught off guard. You are continually ready.


You should read this:

Cooper Color Codes (http://www.teddytactical.com/SharpenBladeArticle/4_States%20of%20Awareness.htm)

This was written for an armed person but it applies to everyone. There is no way a human can be continually alert. There are always chances you can be caught off guard. However, proper training in a tactical mind-set will greatly increase your chances.

[Musubi Dojo]

You should read this:

Cooper Color Codes (http://www.teddytactical.com/SharpenBladeArticle/4_States%20of%20Awareness.htm)

This was written for an armed person but it applies to everyone. There is no way a human can be continually alert. There are always chances you can be caught off guard. However, proper training in a tactical mind-set will greatly increase your chances.

Excellent info Cliff!
I attended a seminar on this a few years ago and I've been trying to find the info. Couldn't remember what it was called...

Thanks!
c

[Nin]

I don't like how you people underestimate the power of training.

I doubt anyone here on these forums underestimates the "power" of training... It's just every situation is different and sometimes a traditionnal/modern martial art just won't work. And I think LEO here can tell you much more about it than anyone else about it (example: hostage situation).


If you train to be continually alert, then you can't ever be caught off guard. You are continually ready.

Tell me anyone who is 100% of time alert. You sleep right? Or sometimes for about 1sec (assuming you're badly paranoid and 1sec is your maximum "off guard time" when awake) you're not paying attention to someone walking behind you? Just two situations everybody go through daily.


Seriously, the most practical and safe and honorable decision would be D.

When your life or someone else's life or several lives are in danger there's nothing about "honor" (which is a whole other topic). It's about finding the safest solution to a problem, not the most honorable.

[Nin]

Excellent info Cliff!

I concur! Great article. The jewelry scenerio at the end illustrates perfectly the article.

[Oniw17]

Keeping a calm mind when getting jumped? The few times that I've been jumped I just kind of zoned out, and let the adreneline take over. Either that, or I just got messed too bad to remember it. But, I do remember all of the events before and after each jump, so I'm thinking that I'm probably zoning out. While I'm posting, does anyone know how to prevent that?

[Nin]

While I'm posting, does anyone know how to prevent that?

More and more training.

[Bobby]

When someone does pull a weapon out on you its best to do what they say, i wouldnt recommend doing anything unless you feel your life is in danger. Most people use weapons to threaten or scare people not to kill or mame, just do as they say, your life is more important than your ipod or mobile etc etc.

Sometimes its keep a low profile, never draw attention to yourself, and be aware of surroundings and the people in them. Also certain areas are rife with with unsavoury character and are best avoided unless you live in one of those areas.

[Ninjalord]

You should read this:

Cooper Color Codes (http://www.teddytactical.com/SharpenBladeArticle/4_States%20of%20Awareness.htm)

This was written for an armed person but it applies to everyone. There is no way a human can be continually alert. There are always chances you can be caught off guard. However, proper training in a tactical mind-set will greatly increase your chances.

Well, I just went and read it. And bookmarked it. Thank you for this insight Cliff. I have lived pretty much by this code, I just never found a way to put it into words, and now it has been. I really can't ad anything to it except to say that learning this philosophy and living it works. 100% of the time. Thanks again for pointing this out man.

[Stararrow]

Does one always clear the mind and deal with whatever comes using his/her skills earned from hard training ? Or are there different approaches for different systems? E.g My first question is what I have been told to do in Wing Chun.

"In your clear thoughts, you have learnt to avoid fights; however, there will be moments when fights cannot be avoided, such times are the seconds when you are off-guard with your mind clouded. In such times, do not think and, just let your body perform its task...be it to launch a sudden attack or be it to just flee from the fight.", these words were what my instructor taught me about "real fights".

If shall one studies a given martial art for the sake of self-defense, he or she will never be seeking a fight; thus, in the clear mindset, one would avoid all possible fights. Then why do we train ourselves? The answer: For the sake when our minds are clouded yet, our body can still take-over and perform its tasks.

[silentassassin]

My 2 cents.

When I have been attacked while I was awake, I've always been ready. I do not wait to clear my mind just before a fight. I make sure my mind stays clear and alert at all times when I'm awake. There is no place that I go that I do not always pay attention to my surroundings and the people involved.

Now if I were to be attacked at home while I was asleep. Well there is a good chance that most intruders would not be able to get to me without waking my dogs that stay in my room with me. Once my dogs wake me, the intruder will be met probably by my 9MM. In which I keep Hydra-Shok loaded at all times.
I have even scared away one guy trying to break in by letting him see my katana just as he opened the door. Although that more than likely wouldn't work on most people. They would atleast still try their luck.

Now if I were to be attacked while sleeping in a hotel room while on vacation with my gun still in my truck, then I would have to rely on instinct. The problem is most people do freeze after being hit and the only way to overcome that is to let yourself be hit while training so that you get used to it. I see alot of martial artists doing everything they can to not get hurt. a person cannot truely judge how they will be able to act unless they first go through something. We cannot run from pain. We have to embrace it so that we do not lose a fight because on trying to avoid being hurt.

[tisme]

in a situation if someone has a weapon lets say a gun. in some situations it is statistically better for you NOT to do what that person sais. if the asailent wants your wallet just drop it & run. you have a better chance of running and not getting mortally wounded do to the fact that it is hard to hit a moving target that is causing unwanted attention. never get in a car even if they have a weapon either. this is what is recomended... but every situation is different. main thing get away if possible and cause people to pay attention to whats going on.
now in a fight you need to look around you and keep sharp.making sure that your fight isnt accompanied by their friends that might already be behind you. i personally wouldnt think not to think and assume things will happen automatically i think thats not good tactics at all. no fight is won by osmosis.
i would be prepared to get hit and i'd be prepared to end it. thats why i beleive its very important in training to be able to take a hit. some train to take one means its the end of the fight but for me its only the begining and thats how it is in the street..
fights rarely end with just two people fighting and fights hardly ever end with just one hit.

[swchiro]

can't say it better that you,....... so many factors, too little time to think!