I need help finding info on a jujutsu [Archive] - BudoSeek! Martial Arts Community Forums

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Gozza

11-07-2005, 12:03

I've recently begun training in Weeping Willow Jujutsu (Shidare Yanagi Yawara) and from the searches that I have done the only information that I can find about it is from the United Jujutsu Alliance website. If anyone could give me more information about it, it would be appreciated. Thanks.

Sgathak

11-07-2005, 12:14

Why dont you do a search here?
Theres been at least a post or two on the subject.

Gozza

11-07-2005, 12:29

I've looked through all of the threads, I thought. I'll look again.

WhiteBeltJones

11-07-2005, 12:31

Interesting that it seems to be taught at Korean dojangs.

Gozza

11-07-2005, 13:39

A hapkido student also learns weeping willow jujutsu under James Wadley, and as a pre-req to his next belt he has to teach. So, after Hapkido, he teaches weeping willow jujutsu.

Toby Threadgill

11-08-2005, 09:23

Hello,

There's so much wrong here that I don't even know where to start.

Suteppingu waza.....Mentaru......my, my, my....

Tobin E Threadgill / TSYR

Mark Barlow

11-08-2005, 10:42

James Wadley has said he'll be at the Camp and this will give everyone an opportunity to not only see some of the Weeping Ryu waza but we can also ask him to clarify some of the more confusing aspects of their history.

Toby Threadgill

11-09-2005, 14:11

Mark,

I know my post is going to sound harsh but the following are just several examples of an avalanche of problematic info from Mr Wadley's website. Koryu are very specific arts of specific origin. When someone claims to be representing koryu and then makes so many glaring errors something must be wrong. The koryu world is very small too. Most all of us know or know of one another. When something/someone like this pops up we wonder where the heck they came from? Although once in a while something like this turns out to be legit, more often than not its a manifestation of samurai fantasies.....

"Some families kept styles like Weeping Willow Jujutsu private, while others taught their system in a suku-ru or school. There were very few suku-ru operating in Japan using the name Shidare Yanagi.

LOL...I'll bet there were no "suku-ru" in Japan at all. Using modern and clumsy English/Japanese loan words on a website in this manner is bizarre. A word like Suku-ru for school just kills me. It's hilarous! Hello.....The Japanese word for school is dojo, not suku-ru! Furthermore the name Shidare Yanagi is itself problematic but that's a rather long and complicated topic too difficult to discuss here.

Anyway...the name Shidare Yanagi Yawara does not appear in any list of koryu bujutsu anywhere. The existence of a tradition called Shidare Yanagi ryu, presently overseen by Don Angier is at least supported by a makimono in an old photo where it is spelled simply "Yanagi ryu". This tradition is linked to Yoshida Kotaro, not a Yamada clan. It's existence as a koryu cannot be supported as nothing is known of this art prior to Yoshida Kotaro. I personally think this art is a Meiji Era creation descended from Shingetsu Muso Yanagi ryu and influenced by Daito ryu.

To claim a Yamada family Shidare Yanagi ryu as koryu on the scant info provided by Mr Parsons is unsupportable. The following info from their website definitely claims the art is koryu but actually raises more questions than it answers.

"The family of our Yamada Sensei was one of the old ruling families of Japan. They did not allow the changing landscape of Japans’ political scene to change their traditions and way of life. They instead retreated back to a private estate in the Nagano Mountains."

Uhhhh. Yamada who? Old ruling family?.....Ruling over what?

He appears to be claiming there was a Yamada han in Nagano? That's easy to verify and I'll bet there was no Yamada han in Nagano. When someone provides detail without any real detail, it sends up red flags. Why mention a teacher without mentioning his full name?

"The Yamada family lived a life full of tradition that included religion, codes, and keeping peace. This art hosts a vast history of tradition, starting back in the era B.C."

This statement is absolute fantasy. There are no reliable written records from Japan prior to around 712CE. The oldest extant and documentable Japanese budo schools are the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto ryu and the Maniwa Nen ryu, both dating to around 1400 CE. To claim that Mr Yamada's Shidare Yanagi ryu existed 1500 years earlier as a codified martial tradition is embarrassingly flawed. Any budo historian worth his salt would blanch at such a preposterous claim.

Sorry but without some hard documentation I'm not buying the Parsons/Wadley story. It reaks of made up psudo-koryu. I could go on for days with more reasons why I'm convinced of this but I can't type that long.

Gozza

11-09-2005, 14:30

Thanks for the info, Tobin. Now I have to figure out how to ask questions without angering anybody. I'm also told that Master Wadley's Sensei is coming from Japan on January 14th if anyone cares.

Mark Barlow

11-09-2005, 14:46

Toby,

I understand completely. When I made my initial contact with a Weeping Jujitsu instructor I was told the name of the style came from the fact that the techniques were so painful it made the attacker weep. I was also informed that it was the oldest, most respected Jujitsu style in existence. When I asked the TKD/Jujitsu instructor why it was taught primarily in Korean style dojang he turned and walked off.

James Wadley, who I understand is one of the senior instructors, has committed to attending the Winter Camp and I look forward to hopefully getting more answers. He's been a gentleman in our correspondence and on the phone and I'm not trying to attack or belittle him. He hasn't personally given me the style's history and I'm assuming he'll be open to sincere questions. Unfortunately, the 2 Weeping instructors I've spoken to had overblown images of their ability and heritage. It always sets the B.S. meter off when I'm given obviously wrong info.

Mark

Toby Threadgill

11-09-2005, 14:55

Mark,

I can't shake the idea that I've met Mr Wadley somewhere.....Perhaps at a seminar I taught. If i did meet him he didn't identify himself as coming from Shidare Yanagi yawara. I'd have remembered that.

btw....The weeping because the techniques were so painful bit left me laughing out loud....

I'll be interested in knowing what you find out.

Webmaster

11-09-2005, 15:05

Thanks for the info, Tobin. Now I have to figure out how to ask questions without angering anybody. I'm also told that Master Wadley's Sensei is coming from Japan on January 14th if anyone cares.
Coming from Japan? He lives in Arkansas, not Japan and his name is Burl Parsons.

BTW, Master is not a term that is commonly used in traditional Japanese martial arts. It is mostly an American/Korean invention.

Mark Barlow

11-09-2005, 15:36

I sat in on one class and after they were through the instructor came over to talk. He recognized my name and told me I should have told him I studied Jujutsu before watching the class. That surprised me because I had called ahead and asked if I could visit and since he didn't ask me my background I didn't give any info.

To be honest, what he was teaching was not Jujutsu. It also wasn't Hapkido which would have made more sense being as we were in a TKD dojang. Truthfully, I got the impression that it was someone's idea of what Jujutsu might be if the only source of info they had were books and videos. I didn't get the impression that the instructor (or his instructor, for that matter) had ever studied Jujutsu, Judo or Aikido. There was no off-balance, distance was wrong and their entering would have done the Light Brigade proud, straight up the middle and no regard to defense.

I'm not trying to be hyper-critical of any person or style but if you make statements saying you are the oldest, best, most respected...you've got to expect someone to ask for verification. That's why I'm happy teaching in a small gendai system with a verifiable history. My martial arts life is an open book and I'm more than happy to supply names, dates and hospital records to back everything up. No claims of glory, no connections to historical figures and a shocking lack of shaolin monks in my closet.

Mark

Webmaster

11-09-2005, 15:54

... hospital records <snip>
:laugh: :laugh:

Cliff Hargrave

11-09-2005, 16:21

When I first read about it I thought the history sounded like a knock off of Don Angier's story.

Toby Threadgill

11-09-2005, 18:10

Mark,

"That's why I'm happy teaching in a small gendai system with a verifiable history. My martial arts life is an open book and I'm more than happy to supply names, dates and hospital records to back everything up. No claims of glory, no connections to historical figures and a shocking lack of shaolin monks in my closet."

Amen.....

Koryu is a double edged sword. Some of the curriculum is really great stuff. Other parts of it are so archaic, and culturally obtuse that it can make you think you are just wasting time. I have several hundred lines of Shinto prayers memorized because they are part of our mokuroku. I am required by our tradition to execute obscure Shinto rituals several times a year. I spend an unbelieveable amount of effort perfecting the application of some techniques in our mokuroku that have absolutely no practical value in todays environment. That they are still valuable as a repository of knowledge, perspective and principle is self evident but I'm convinced that there are other successful methods to convey these truths as well.

You have to be really weird to want to do this stuff but it is part and parcel to training in a classical budo. Is all of this worth it? Yes, especially if your inclined to be interested in the historical perspectives of budo. But if you're purely interested in sport fighting or professional conflict, a gendai system is a much better match. Koryu is what it is. Gendai is what is is. They exist for different reasons and have different goals.

That anyone would invent pseudo koryu is really bizarre. I guess some people want the mystique of koryu without actually going through the bovine scatology associated with training in the real McCoy. But these people are missing something. It's not like koryu has all these super secret techniques that nobody has ever seen before. Most of our waza are rather archaic applications of techniques still in use today. What cool stuff there is that is unique to koryu and not found in gendai arts is only available in authentic koryu. These things are not available in pseudo koryu. If you think about it, pseudo koryu is the worst of both worlds. Gendai is free to evolve quickly and efficiently as its not beholden to the restrictions associated with tradition. Koryu, properly transmitted, although beholden to tradition and its associated restrictions frequently has a deep knowledge base to draw from. Pseudo koryu has neither. What do people get out of such nonsense besides dressing up like Yojimbo. Budo as a fashion show is way overrated!

jujutsumedic

11-09-2005, 18:17

Gozza

11-09-2005, 21:22

everything ;)

J/K. I was wondering about the history of the art and wondered if anybody had even heard of it before. I searched around for 2 weeks, and the biggest thing I could find was the United Jujutsu Alliance website.

Thank you, Robert, for correcting me. I'm fairly new to the martial arts with the exception of some muay thai.

Mekugi

11-10-2005, 05:24

Mark Barlow

11-10-2005, 11:43

[What do you want to know]

Mr. Collins,

Are you a Weeping Jujitsu instructor? If so, where and who is your sensei?

Thanks,

Mark

WhiteBeltJones

11-10-2005, 12:21

[What do you want to know]

Mr. Collins,

Are you a Weeping Jujitsu instructor? If so, where and who is your sensei?

Thanks,

Mark

Anybody wanna place odds on getting a timely, concise answer? :up:

Mekugi

11-10-2005, 12:38

Koryu is a double edged sword. Some of the curriculum is really great stuff. Other parts of it are so archaic, and culturally obtuse that it can make you think you are just wasting time. I have several hundred lines of Shinto prayers memorized because they are part of our mokuroku....

I have to ask, simply because I may have misunderstood something- so into the breach! Is Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin Ryu koryu bujutsu?

Mark Barlow

11-10-2005, 12:48

I just got an email on my yahoo account asking and I quote. "Who died and made you king? Its none of your business what sombody teaches. Mind youre on business!"

I'm not trying to insult or flame anyone. If you post on the 'net you open yourself to examination. If someone wants to claim to be the resurrected spirit of Musashi and that they teach the world's most deadly martial art, more power to them but if they don't want questions, keep it to themselves.

Also, I didn't initiate this public inquiry but since we're on a discussion site, I feel I have as much right as anyone else to discuss whatever the topic might be. So, for my anonymous critic....if you don't have the cojones to step out of the shadows and have an open dialog, please keep your opinions to yourself. I don't see much value in interacting with someone who obviously lacks the strength of their convictions enough to publicly take a stand. You're on my spam list in every sense of the word.

WhiteBeltJones

11-10-2005, 13:16

Ah, for the good old days when you could visit a dojo and challenge the sensei and take his sign down if he was full of it. :t2:

Toby Threadgill

11-10-2005, 16:30

Hey Russ,

Didn't we discuss this before?

Koryu or not, sort of depends on who you ask. Takamura said no but his definition of koryu was VERY conservative. He basicly defined koryu as being founded in the Sengoku Period. That would disqualify almost all existing jujutsu schools except perhaps Takenouchi ryu and Araki ryu. It's important to note that most historians would disagree with Takamura's very conservative definition on this topic.

Shindo Yoshin ryu was founded by Katsunosuke Matsuoka in 1864, prior to the Meiji restoration as a merging of the Nakamura Yoshin Koryu line (Totsuka ha Yoshin Koryu) and the Akiyama Yoshin ryu line (Tenjin Shinyo ryu) plus influences from Jikishinkage ryu and Hokushin itto ryu. The Takamura/Ohbata ha Shindo Yoshin ryu is a branch off the mainline supported by unbroken transmission via menkyo kaiden licenses. It includes a further influence from Katouda/Matsuzaki Shinkage ryu. Shigeta Ohbata was awarded menkyo kaiden by Matsuoka around 1890.

( Steve Delaney got to see Shigeta Ohbata's Menkyo-Kaiden Gokui license when I visited him a couple of weeks ago. During my trip I was visiting a Japanese budo historian who is writing an article on the Takamura ryuha for publication by the Japanese Budo Academy.)

The Shindo Yoshin ryu is a member of the Nippon Kobudo Kyokai. I think the date of its founding and membership in the kobudo kyokai confirm that in the opinion of most the Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin Kai qualifies as koryu jujutsu.

btw....It looks like the Yoshin ryu densho is not coming my way afterall so the one I got from you is it.

jujutsumedic

11-10-2005, 16:34

No im just startin in Japanese JuJutsu. My sensi is a man in Friendswoon Tx that has studied Judo and JuJutsu since he was 15 his name is Richard Poro. I dont know about the wjj but from what i understand the Japanese JuJutsu was used by the Samuri on the battle field. The had armor on so the developed JuJutsu. My sensi teaches Judo as part of our cirriculum beacuse Judo is JuJutsu with out the Good stuff. The actual jujutsu is Rokyu. I am 32 years old this is the first MA i have studied and love it. Keepm looking on the web and you will find something. I dont mean to sound disrespectful but your sensi should be able to tell you all about the art if not move on. I dont know if i was any help or not.

When the enemy comes welcome him, When he goes send him on his way :karate:

jujutsumedic

11-10-2005, 16:37

What is that suppose to mean mr jones

WhiteBeltJones

11-10-2005, 16:42

What is that suppose to mean mr jones

I'm saying that there's a lot of posers out there, with no real way to force them to back their claims.

jujutsumedic

11-10-2005, 16:51

WhiteBeltJones

11-10-2005, 16:59

I will agree i see you are in Texas if you are ever in the Houston area feel free to come check us out, this is not a challange by no means but an inventation to come train if you are ever in the area. :karate: we have ecellent Judo, JuJustu, and Akido classes. Check us out sometime if you are in the area.

Looks like a pretty cool club y'all have down there. Not sure when I'll be in Houston next, but I certainly wouldn't mind dropping by if I was.

Gozza

11-10-2005, 22:50

I misunderstood, he isn't coming from Japan. Also, his last name is Palmer. I can't really remember his first name, it was along the lines of ___llard.

Kevin, he has told me the history of the art, but I like to try to find things out myself.

Mekugi

11-10-2005, 22:53

Yeah we did talk about this! I was thinking you told me it was not a Koryu Bujutsu, but now I see what you are talking about (and why). The conservative view of Mr. Takamura made this a little confusing.

I'm one of those who is of the opinion that Koryu Bujutsu1 ends in Meiji Ishin of 1866/67 and the onset of the class system being dissolved. If 1864 is the true date of the Ryuso founding the school of "Takamura-ha shindo Yoshin Ryu" then by my definition your school would be a koryu. The bonafide transmission of the school makes it all the more so, as I see it. So this stumped me! :confused:

This is where I was confused. Thanks for clearing that up (I betcha more than one got the crystal clarity from this.)

Bummer about the book, wish them luck with thier continued publishing efforts though! :)

-Russ
1- I go by the "nanni-nanni" Koryu Bujutsu date system, where Nanni #1 is the Era and Nanni #2 is the Gregorian-to-Japanese approximated year. For instance, I would say yours is a "Edo-Genji Koryu Bujutsu." Edo is the official era, Genji 元治 is the year-era in which it was created. To me this makes more sense than attempting to blanket everything with one term and fits with the Japanese Historic theme. It is also handy for people researching the era, without having to go back and reference all of the dates.

Hey Russ,

Didn't we discuss this before?

Koryu or not, sort of depends on who you ask. Takamura said no but his definition of koryu was VERY conservative. He basicly defined koryu as being founded in the Sengoku Period....
Shindo Yoshin ryu was founded by Katsunosuke Matsuoka in 1864, prior to the Meiji restoration as a merging of the Nakamura Yoshin Koryu line (Totsuka ha Yoshin Koryu) and the Akiyama Yoshin ryu line (Tenjin Shinyo ryu) plus influences from Jikishinkage ryu and Hokushin itto ryu.
btw....It looks like the Yoshin ryu densho is not coming my way afterall so the one I got from you is it.

Mekugi

11-12-2005, 03:36

I just got an email on my yahoo account asking and I quote. "Who died and made you king?"

The previous king, of course. :D
The king is dead...LONG LIVE THE KING!

Sometimes when we write things, it's more of a reaction. Filtering through somebody's bad-mouthing and finding what they are really saying is usually an art, one that takes patience and a great amount of personal restraint. I have none of these things, incidentally.

As to date, I have recieved approcimately five death threats this year.