View Full Version : What ever happened to apprenticeship?
Jared Sutton
11-10-2005, 16:43
What ever happened to apprenticeship? I mean where a guy who wants to learn from you has to earn your time and patience. Shine your boots, clean the bathroom, paint the fence, wax the car, sand the floor (Miyagi reference for those who didn't catch the last three :wink2: ). Apprenticeship is what would make a true martial artist because by the time you got through being the guys servant, you definitely weren't going to leave after giving up all that time and energy. Training would be with full energy and emotion because to get that training, you would have to earn it.
I say all of this because today, there are more students at my home dojang than ever and, sad to say, there are fewer GOOD students than ever. Those who are born athletes and have all of the potential are quickly swayed by the peer pressure of those who would rather play tag on the training area than kick. I am also becoming quite fed up with my instructor's lack of nerve to expell students who do nothing but push-ups during class or have lost rank more than a couple of times. I am aware that if you start expelling students, that you soon come to be known as a dojang that expels many students, but for the sake of all of the others, just don't let them keep training! :eek:
AndrewSimonsen
11-10-2005, 17:55
It sounds like you have two problems;
Firstly you seem to have this image that only through "apprenticeship" can a teacher get truly dedicated students. Now, to be perfectly honest I don't know if that was ever the case. And i am fairly certain that it wouldn't be the best way to get good students. If you want to get good students train hard and all of the posers and punks will bail. Go into a wrestling room where they train hard and tell me if you see any horseplay. You won't and it isn't because of a period of servitude, but instead because of how hard the practices are.
Second, if you feel that way about your school tell your teacher. If you don't want to talk to your teacher about it you can really do two things, put up with it, or leave.
Musubi Dojo
11-10-2005, 18:23
What ever happened to apprenticeship? I mean where a guy who wants to learn from you has to earn your time and patience. Shine your boots, clean the bathroom, paint the fence, wax the car, sand the floor (Miyagi reference for those who didn't catch the last three :wink2: ). Apprenticeship is what would make a true martial artist because by the time you got through being the guys servant, you definitely weren't going to leave after giving up all that time and energy. Training would be with full energy and emotion because to get that training, you would have to earn it.
I say all of this because today, there are more students at my home dojang than ever and, sad to say, there are fewer GOOD students than ever. Those who are born athletes and have all of the potential are quickly swayed by the peer pressure of those who would rather play tag on the training area than kick. I am also becoming quite fed up with my instructor's lack of nerve to expell students who do nothing but push-ups during class or have lost rank more than a couple of times. I am aware that if you start expelling students, that you soon come to be known as a dojang that expels many students, but for the sake of all of the others, just don't let them keep training! :eek:
Would you really want to pay someone for the priviledge of shining their boots and waxing their car? Especially when the folks who demand servitude of their students are almost always frauds, abusive creeps, freakshows and the seriously unhinged types (Like Tom Cruise).....
Andrew are you sure you're only 17?
I know some thirty year olds who should be asking you for advice....
Cheers
c
Apprenticeships still exist in some professions. Others have changed the name to internships. Either way, it's a low paying position that is required before a professional is considered insurable. It has nothing to do with servitude but rather liability. Someone else is accepting the liability for your work - hence the low pay.
Outside of the movies, I am not aware of apprenticeships/internships existing in the MA's community. Even if they do exist on some level, I'm not sure that would be the answer to the behavioral problems at your school. It sounds to me like some of the students need to be booted. But it also sounds like the instructor needs to revamp the class structure - maybe students are getting bored.
As I last recall there is stiill apprenticeships in the construction/technical fields.
I did a four year apprenticeship as a cabinetmaker before becoming a journeyman.
You can still find some Uchi Deshi programs out there. Theres a nice Aikido Uchi Deshi Program here in Denver (Oakland CA, and Reno NV have similar program, Ive also seen them in taiwan, and a few other locations. Actually pretty common).
For like $300 a month you get room and board, plus all the training you can handle, and in return you cook and clean. At the dojo here, there is a traditional Japanese restaurant and museum attached, so you help in those areas as well if need be.
Jeff Burger
11-11-2005, 10:34
" Shine your boots, clean the bathroom, paint the fence, wax the car, sand the floor"
Are you applying to be my apprentice?
There are always a student or 2 or 3 that sticks out. That puts in the exrta effort. That will nearely punish themselves to get better.
They make it worth while and they are thre future of your program...your legacy.
I have a few...they are my Jedi knights.
Jeff
As I last recall there is stiill apprenticeships in the construction/technical fields.
I did a four year apprenticeship as a cabinetmaker before becoming a journeyman.
[QUOTE=Eliz Seuferling]Apprenticeships still exist in some professions. Others have changed the name to internships. Either way, it's a low paying position that is required before a professional is considered insurable. It has nothing to do with servitude but rather liability. Someone else is accepting the liability for your work - hence the low pay.
In many European countries apprenticeships are the traditional way to learn a trade and are regulated by the government. That means you leave school at 16 find a licenced company that will take you on, sign a contract for 3-4 years (depending on trade), work for little money (Hey, they are teaching you skills here) for about 3-4 days a week (you spend 1-2 days at school learning the theoretical part of your profession), and at the end of it you'll have final examinations (practical and theoretical). Pass your examinations and you are legally entitled to work in your profession. Don't get qualified and you're likely to work in lowly-paid c**p jobs.
Right To Defend
11-11-2005, 23:49
Well said Jeff!
Jared Sutton
11-13-2005, 19:38
I'm not speaking in a mindset that if you came to learn martial arts by being your instructor's apprentice, you would be any better than a martial artist who just came into every practice and put blood and tears. I guess I was speaking a little too fantastical (I guess that's a word). I know that good students are going to make good martial artists, apprentice or not, but I think that if the students (yes, kids much more specifically) had some measure of having to give up something to learn karate, they would work harder. I don't necessarily have a Chop Socky-fied view of the martial arts, I just like to think a lot. :laugh:
I think I'm following you. In other words, if good ol' mom and dad were not footing the bill, perhaps they would value it more.
True story. When my daughter was only 11 years old, she came home and declared she wanted to take horseback riding lessons. I grew up with horses, my only issue now is the expense - it "aint" like it used to be. So I told her "get a job." She came home two days later and declared she got a job up the road mucking out stalls for free riding lessons! I was very proud of her and even helped her on occasion. It didn't last long. Horses are hard work and the "romance" quickly wears off.
So in answer to your thoughts, it may work for some but not for others. I think students need to know what they are committing to and whether or not it is something they will bond with.
Jeff Burger
11-14-2005, 10:03
Well then I guess I came up through a apprentice program.
Ny first Karate teacher let me work off my fee.
Since then most every school I have ben to I some how ended up earning my classes (doing work, teacher lower ranks...).
I think the closest thing might be private lessons. That what you could say Mr. Miyagi was offer Daniel - San :wink2: .
...I think that if the students (yes, kids much more specifically) had some measure of having to give up something to learn karate, they would work harder.
Isn't time and money enough to give up? In terms of being a Deshi, that does still exist in Japan such as at the Honbu Dojo in Tokyo. However, that is a career. You live at the Dojo, teach there and continue your training with the goal of becoming one of the head instructors. Most martial arts students in the West do not intend to make a career of it.
I think you have a romanticised Hollywood view of the Martial Arts. It does, however sound like you are very committed. If you really want to train hard and at a dojo where everyone takes it seriously then go to Japan and train at the Kodokan (judo) Honbu Dojo (Aikido) or one of the top Karate dojos. If you're into a different MA then go to the country of origin.
I spent five years in Japan and I would recommend it.
poetic misjustice
11-30-2005, 16:28
i am currently on something simelar to that although i didn't have to shine his boots or whatever, i simply train with him, which means there are no other students and no confusment or messing around we simply train, i've been on this for most of my life and i feel it is better than a class.
Jared Sutton
11-30-2005, 20:19
How much experience do you think a person needs to give private lessons in a garage?
Not insinuating that I'm anywhere close, just curious on opinion.
Well I think you should be a first dan or higher, preferrably higher. Maybe five or more years of knowing the martial art and being able do all techniques well.
How much experience do you think a person needs to give private lessons in a garage?
Not insinuating that I'm anywhere close, just curious on opinion.
I don't like the idea of receiving training one-to-one in some blokes garage. Personally, as it applies to judo you need at least two students and one instructor. To be able to demonstrate the grip, footwork, kuzushi and the entire technique the instructor needs student 1 to demonstrate on while student 2 observes. The instructor then swops so student 1 can observe. If there's only one student, they can't see what the instructor is doing.
Well I think you should be a first dan or higher, preferrably higher. Maybe five or more years of knowing the martial art and being able do all techniques well.
Personally, I believe that to be an instructor you need at least two thousand hours of mat time and to hold at least san dan. Many people will disagree with that but it's my own honest opinion.
I do not intend to give instruction until I get my san dan which is still a few years away. The reason is that I don't want to teach someone who's paying good money, poor technique. Also, I believe an instructor should have a thourough knowledge of all techniques and at least the first few katas. (I'm talking about judo here).
s.henson
12-02-2005, 15:42
A person ranked at shodan should be teaching begining students. If it takes a person untill sandan to get beyond "poor technique" then there is a problem somewhere. Also I have found that you learn different things when you teach, because you are seeing things from a different angle.
A person ranked at shodan should be teaching begining students. If it takes a person untill sandan to get beyond "poor technique" then there is a problem somewhere. Also I have found that you learn different things when you teach, because you are seeing things from a different angle.
Good points. I think a sho dan can be an assistant instructor, just not a head instructor.
In terms of technique, most sho dans (including myself) can do all the techniques competently, and their tokui waza (favourite technique/s) very well. At san dan you should be able to do all the techniques very well.
Richard
Cyriades
12-08-2005, 21:47
Hmm, perhaps it depends on one's own training. I would love to continue my training as an uchi deshi in Japan one day, however...
Yang Wei Xin
12-22-2005, 13:13
my sifu still takes on apprentices, basically you can have no job, no significant other, and you must dedicate your entire being to kung fu. he only takes one at a time and so far no one has lasted longer than a year and a half.
beyond regular classes the appretice was allowed extra lessons for free, as well as a having their own prescribed workout to complete or be kicked out of apprenticeship. any time you see sifu you must present a gift, does not have to be big, just show appreciation(lai see), and you are responsible for taking care of sifu in any way that is necessary.
its a lot deeper than that, but i was never foolhardy enough to attempt it, so i don't know the complete requirements, and the apprentice is not allowed to discuss with anyone.
luckily after failure you are still allowed to remain a student.
all classes are free for apprentice, but they must participate as an assistant instructor and the cleanliness of the school and sifus house are there responsibility, sometimes sifu even takes them into his home if they cant afford to quit job and do kung fu.
AndrewSimonsen
12-22-2005, 13:21
Sounds cultish/slave like.
Yang Wei Xin
12-22-2005, 13:32
Sounds cultish/slave like.
kind of, but you get free training, and if you added up the cost of private lessons with sifu, and compared it with the amount of special training, its definitely worth it, most people quit not because of the service, but because they can't keep up with the training.
Jared Sutton
12-22-2005, 20:55
But are they any better off after this year and a half or less? Is there a significant difference in their performance?
Jared Sutton
12-22-2005, 20:55
Sorry double post! :eek:
Yang Wei Xin
12-27-2005, 11:13
most definitely an improvement.
kind of hard not to improve when you are required to practice up to 6 hours a night and have to test on your knowledge every month.
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