Is it bad etiquette to hide your rank?

[Rich]

I've just moved to the US and am looking to join a judo club. I am concerned that as a sho dan holder I will be expected to become an assistant instructor and it will be hard to continue learning as the instructors will not want to teach me. I feel an instructor will assume I don't want to receive instruction or be corrected and that I will be the "demo dummy" - you know, the guy who's always picked to be uke when a technique is demonstrated. :rolleyes:

I am wondering if it would be bad etiquette to join a club and wear a white belt :eek: even though it will be obvious I have experience. It's just that I would enjoy going through the training from scratch again. I did it when I went to Japan and really benefitted from learning the basics again. :o

I know it sounds like I am being selfish for not wanting to be an instructor but I just want to continue learning. What does everyone else think? :confused:

Richard

[poetic misjustice]

well i'm not sure about judo in particular but if it is the same sytem then yes it is bad etiquette, you always have to show rank otherwise it is usually seen as deceitful, well in more traditional schools it is anyway i've never trained in a non-trad karate school.

[Tony Dismukes]

I don't know about the etiquette, but a good instructor certainly won't think you "don't want to receive instruction or be corrected" just because you have a shodan. In fact, some folks feel that shodan is the level at which you can really start learning.

As far as being expected to be an assistant instructor, that probably depends on the student body of the club. If it's a beginning group with mostly white-belt students, you might very well be expected to help out coaching the beginners. It sounds like what you need is an established club that already has lots of black belts. You're unlikely to be drafted for teaching in that situation.

If you really want to go through training from scratch as a white belt again, why not try a different art? If you want something close to what you're used to, try jujutsu. You can start over as a legitimate white belt and you'll probably get new insight into your judo due to seeing many of the same techniques in a different context.

[Rich]

well i'm not sure about judo in particular but if it is the same sytem then yes it is bad etiquette, you always have to show rank otherwise it is usually seen as deceitful, well in more traditional schools it is anyway i've never trained in a non-trad karate school.

That's what I thought. I just don't want to show bad etiquette by turning down an offer to be an assistant instructor.

Richard

[Rich]

If you really want to go through training from scratch as a white belt again, why not try a different art? If you want something close to what you're used to, try jujutsu. You can start over as a legitimate white belt and you'll probably get new insight into your judo due to seeing many of the same techniques in a different context.

Thanks! That sounds like excellent advice. I think I'd really enjoy cross-training. Thanks again!

Richard

[Dennis Monk]

BJJ or JJJ would be a great place to begin looking if you were wanting to try a new art and already have a BB in Judo. I algree with others also that if you make it clear that you are there to learn and not teach, that should be well received.

[Rich]

BJJ or JJJ would be a great place to begin looking if you were wanting to try a new art and already have a BB in Judo. I algree with others also that if you make it clear that you are there to learn and not teach, that should be well received.

Thanks for your input Dennis. I think I've found a BJJ school in my area.

Richard

[Erik]

What Dennis and Tony said.

Also, you could show up with a white belt and when asked say that you simply did not want to be presumptuous by strolling in with a black belt on. You know, new club, start at the beginning unless otherwise told.

It might look like strange, confused, yet polite modesty.

Depends upon the vibe of the group and their coach, of course. It could be misinterpreted.

[jwinch2]

It sounds like most of your concerns can be delt with by doing a little research ahead of time and taking the time to talk with the primary instructor of whatever art you decide to pursue before you show up to a class.

[Rich]

It sounds like most of your concerns can be delt with by doing a little research ahead of time and taking the time to talk with the primary instructor of whatever art you decide to pursue before you show up to a class.

Thanks for your thoughts.

If I start a new art I'll definitely be wearing a white belt because I'll know nothing about the art and I will be a complete beginner.

When I join a judo club I'll wear my bb but make it clear I still have lots to learn.

Richard

[Sgathak]

One point I have heard for NOT hiding your rank is so others know what level of force they can safely use on you.

[poetic misjustice]

That's what I thought. I just don't want to show bad etiquette by turning down an offer to be an assistant instructor.

Richard

No it wouldn't be rude to turn down a teaching position, but it would be rude to not show your grade, in my experience anyway.

[Bengel]

Thanks for your thoughts.

If I start a new art I'll definitely be wearing a white belt because I'll know nothing about the art and I will be a complete beginner.

When I join a judo club I'll wear my bb but make it clear I still have lots to learn.

Richard

Yes, do jiu-jitsu. It's a great follow-up martial art when you've done judo.
If you go to the judo class, why not just talk to the teacher first?
Ask whether he or she prefers you to wear your black belt or not. When I went to the UK for 10 months, I wore a white belt instead of my blue belt jiu-jitsu. I informed the teacher that I did have judo experience. I'm glad I chose the white belt since the style was significantly different.

And when asked to become assistent instructor (although I doubt a new member will be offered this role), respectfully decline. You come and pay to train; not to instruct.

[Abbax8]

You may have a black belt, you may be a very good shodan, but I can tell you this, when you walk into my club, and many other instructor's clubs that I know of, you will first be assessed as to your skill and most importantly how you take care of your training partner. I once had a club when I was brown belt. I told a black belt he was no longer welcome to guest teach as his care for his students left alot to be desired. I'm not suggesting you are such a person, but pointing out that club senseis, good ones at least, do all that they can to maintain safety.

Peace

Dennis

[Rich]

And when asked to become assistent instructor (although I doubt a new member will be offered this role), respectfully decline. You come and pay to train; not to instruct.

Dennis, thanks for your thoughts. I agree with you that if you pay a fee then you expect to train, not to teach.

Richard

[Rich]

You may have a black belt, you may be a very good shodan, but I can tell you this, when you walk into my club, and many other instructor's clubs that I know of, you will first be assessed as to your skill and most importantly how you take care of your training partner. I once had a club when I was brown belt. I told a black belt he was no longer welcome to guest teach as his care for his students left alot to be desired. I'm not suggesting you are such a person, but pointing out that club senseis, good ones at least, do all that they can to maintain safety.

Peace

Dennis

Thanks Dennis (is everyone on Budoseek called Dennis?! :D ) I agree with what you say about safety being a priority. I think that mutual respect and understanding are important tenets of Jigoro Kanos underlying philosophy. Looking after the safety of your training partners and being helpful to beginners is of course extremely important.

I am always willing to help others and give advice. My concern is that I also want to receive instruction and continue to improve. I know I have a lot more to learn.

The purpose of this thread was to find out how people running clubs would feel about an experienced judoka joining their club and wearing a white belt. The consencus seems clear - most people disapprove.

Thanks for your comments.

Richard.

[Dennis Monk]

(is everyone on Budoseek called Dennis?! :D )
No, only the cool guys are.

[Rich]

No, only the cool guys are.

Another one! :eek:

So, why is your nickname "the Ace". I'd have thought it would have been Dennis "the Menace" Monk. :D

Richard

[Dennis Monk]

It is a private joke among the moderation staff.

[Sgathak]

Thanks Dennis (is everyone on Budoseek called Dennis?! :D

No, most are named Tony.

Tony U
Tony D
Tony K
etc etc etc

[Bad Karma]

Now I know to make more posts since I can't get included with the "Tony's" other than a half-hearted "etc" mentioning. :)

Let it be known that you have a BB in Judo regardless of where and what you decide to train. Some may want you to start over and some may allow you to wear it - it'll be their dojo and their rules to play by. Hiding your rank is highly frowned upon.

I ask you, though, why are you against being an assistant instructor? You know and understand that you benefit from teaching other's? I would also assume that if you do take on an assistant instructor role that fees will be discounted, if not eliminated - correct? I've never known an assistant instructor to teach every class, so I would hope your time as active student will not be an issue. I guess you won't know until you speak with whatever instructor you decide to train with, but it's YOUR training and YOUR money so YOU decide where your time and efforts are best placed.

Peace

[Rich]

Now I know to make more posts since I can't get included with the "Tony's" other than a half-hearted "etc" mentioning. :)

Let it be known that you have a BB in Judo regardless of where and what you decide to train. Some may want you to start over and some may allow you to wear it - it'll be their dojo and their rules to play by. Hiding your rank is highly frowned upon.

I ask you, though, why are you against being an assistant instructor? You know and understand that you benefit from teaching other's? I would also assume that if you do take on an assistant instructor role that fees will be discounted, if not eliminated - correct? I've never known an assistant instructor to teach every class, so I would hope your time as active student will not be an issue. I guess you won't know until you speak with whatever instructor you decide to train with, but it's YOUR training and YOUR money so YOU decide where your time and efforts are best placed.

Peace

Hi Tony. I think that if I start a new MA like JiuJitsu I'll defiitely do as you suggested and inform the head instructor that I have studied Judo and of my rank.

When I join a Judo club I'll wear my BB as it's clear from this discussion board that not to do so would be bad etiquette.

Personally, I don't think people should wear a belt (of whatever rank) if it's not in the discipline they are training in. i.e. if I'm in the judo dojo I'll wear my BB as it is a rank I hold in that MA but if I'm in a JiuJitsu dojo I'll wear a white belt as I have no rank in that MA.

To answer your question/s, I don't feel I'm ready to be an instructor yet.

Thanks for your comments,

Richard

[Sgathak]

Now now Tony S

You dont have your "Tony" as a user handle, nor have you utterly alienated everyone and drawn yourself to the forefront of the "bad tony" list (everyone keeps a "bad tony" list dont they? dont they? :))

[Bad Karma]

LOL! I'm the good Tony?!

Peace

[Jeff C.]

Rich,

Some of this is stating what has previously been said, but I will try to add something new to it, as well as organize it point by point.

1. Find a club you are interested in. Schedule an interview with the head instructor.

2. The instructor will interview you, and you will also interview him (to see if you like his product/program). Be totally honest about your experience and rankings.

3. It is up to the instructor what belt you wear in his or her dojo. Some sensei will find it offensive if you automatically wear your black belt without asking politely first, in spite of it being the same art. I am a sandan in judo; I ALWAYS ask what belt I am to wear before stepping on someone else's mat. My rank is not registered with the USJA/USJI; if it was, but I did not earn it at that particular club, I will STILL politely ask what to wear. People generally seem too easy to offend these days; it is TOO easy to avoid any offense by just asking. But if the instructor tells you to wear your black belt, and you are uncomfortable with that, politely explain why to see if you can influence his or her decision.

4. After listening to the instructor's sales pitch, tell the instructor what you expect to gain from his or her program; this would be a good time to tell him or her that you do not want to be tasked with being an assistant instructor. This is a good time for the instructor to explain to you what your responsibilities will be. Remember, in spite of paying tuition, instructor-time on the mat is also ESSENTIAL for you to progress as a judoka. You probably already have realized how teaching makes you better at technique, by providing you an entirely new perspective. Do not undervalue your time as an instructor.

Good luck!

Also, Dennis, kudos to you for making student safety your number one priority!

Jeff Cook

[Rich]

Thanks for the advice Jeff. I appreciate you taking the time to give your opinion.

[skurk]

When I grow up I want to be a Tony. Tony G. I think you would learn alot by teaching. But thats just me. Bjj would be a good compliment to your judo.