Black Belt Revoked!?

[Jason T Gatts]

A while back I heard about a local instructor that had sent out a letter to all of the other local MA schools informing them that he had revoked the black belt of one of his students (apparently the student had stolen from him or something).
My instructor told me that he gets a couple of letters like that each year. I train with several different instructors, one of them I know has revoked a black belt before and another told me that revoking a black belt is as ridiculous as if your high school called you up and said "we heard what you did and we're revoking your diploma."
What do you think?

[ezzthetic]

I agree with the latter instructor. Even if a student's behavior is thoroughly reprehensible and his instructor does not want to be associated with him any more, it is silly to revoke his black belt.

[kenpo123]

gee, i hope he didnt take his gi away too

[Jeff C.]

I don't think that's so silly. As a high school grad, you don't represent your high school. As a black belt, you represent your sensei.

However, I still can't say I agree or disagree with the process. I just don't think I have seen a convincing argument against it yet, or an argument that convinces me it is silly.

Jeff Cook

[Jason T Gatts]

Jeff, do we represent our Sensei or do we reperesent the style that we train in?

Maybe it's better compared to a college degree? Surely when you list credentials you list the school that you earned your degree from, so do we represent that university?

[Jason T Gatts]

I also don't know if I fully agree or disagree with the practice, I was just curious as to other peoples thoughts on it and if it is something done at their school/gym.

Actually I guess one argument for not being able to take a black belt away would be - most instructors have a curriculum that must be fulfilled in order to achieve each rank (black belt included), once you demonstrate those techniques your earned it. So since you can't take away the knowledge that was required how can you take away the earned reward. Plus taking the belt away after you granted it sort of says that you (the instructor) made a mistake.

I guess maybe I am leaning towards the silliness side.

[Webmaster]

I tend to agree with Jeff that you represent your Sensei, but you also represent your style/ryuha or organization. While you cannot exactly take back a rogue student's knowledge, you can revoke his credentials. This would be no different from a Koryu ryu's hamon (expulsion).

[Tony Dismukes]

I'll cast another vote for "silly".

To my mind, if rank even has any meaning, it would be recognition of the skills and knowledge a practitioner has worked to develop. You can't revoke that skill and knowledge. I think the analogy with a college degree is right on. I'm sure many universities might like the option of revoking the degree of an alumnus who has been a public embarrassment (or who refused to donate to the alumni fund :)), but that's not the way it works.

[Jeff C.]

Jason, good discussion. I concur with everything Robert said. I would also add that a black belt is not just knowledge, but to a very large degree it is also attitude, maturity, passion and compassion. It is also leadership ability, and many other intangible criteria that have nothing to do with "knowledge."

Jeff Cook

[Webmaster]

... it would be recognition of the skills and knowledge a practitioner has worked to develop. You can't revoke that skill and knowledge.
I agree, you cannot revoke skill and knowledge, but the key is recognition. That can be revoked, be it recognition of rank, membership, etc.

[khujo78]

I heard of a couple black sashes (belt for other arts) in my kung fu school who got their sashes revoked because they had forgotten the fundamentals. This was found out during testing for the next level. I don't think its wrong at all. If you dont keep up with what you already are supposed to know, i believe you should be dropped down until you get yourself refreshed. I'm really not about the whole ranking thing, so I guess i'm biased, but if a student forgets basic fundamentals, s/he needs to go back and work on them.

[Grei]

That would make sense Doug, but that's not the topic at hand, as the sash wasn't revoked for something the student had done... it was something the student had forgotten. (besides, if they manage to get to black sash level and still forget their techniques... they probably shouldn't have gotten there in the first place.)

I both agree and disagree with the taking away of the belt for a misdeed... I think it would make it much easier really if rank and skill-level were kept seprate. That way you could demote someone without denouncing their ability. I think it would make more sense just to let it be known that they're kicked out of the school though, and dissassociated/excommunicated.

[spud]

I don’t think it’s silly, I think students need to be aware that it’s a possibility & understand that their instructor can & will revoke their “certification” as the ultimate punishment if need be.

The certification is a “passport / credentials” to their future their skills are the vehicle that gets them their. I don’t know of anywhere in the world where if you get a drivers licence & become a danger on the road the licence isn’t revoked. Just because you know how to drive doesn’t mean you are allowed to legally, you must continue to abide by the rules & regs of your legal code. So if you’re an instructor your have the responsibility to ensure students having earned a BB by abiding by all the styles & clubs rules doesn’t then become a menace to society (a thief, liar, cheat, killer, fraudster etc.).

If I put my name on a document to validate a person as genuine, has upheld a code of honour etc & then know that they later no longer values that code enough to continue to uphold it I have every right & responsibility to cancel that document which I signed off on. If I don’t I devalue the style, the other students, myself & my instructor by saying we all only talk about honour & its importance we don’t actually follow through, its all just talk (Paper tigers).

How it affects that person will very from nil to whatever, that depends on the value that person places on your respect & a pretty piece of paper. Certification has been & continues to be a source of pain & trouble & in my personal opinion isn’t worth the paper it’s written on, it’s what’s in your head & more importantly in your heart that counts. At the end of the day revoking a certification is more about doing what is right for the greater good rather than “punishing” an individual.

[Jared Sutton]

I think we should reconsider the "Do your teachers morals matter?" discussion.

If my instructor was a sarcastice hole who would beat up on guys for fun (and I was fine with that), why should I care if one of my students is beating up kids behind the lunchroom?

[Jared Sutton]

I don’t think it’s silly, I think students need to be aware that it’s a possibility & understand that their instructor can & will revoke their “certification” as the ultimate punishment if need be.

The certification is a “passport / credentials” to their future their skills are the vehicle that gets them their. I don’t know of anywhere in the world where if you get a drivers licence & become a danger on the road the licence isn’t revoked. Just because you know how to drive doesn’t mean you are allowed to legally, you must continue to abide by the rules & regs of your legal code. So if you’re an instructor your have the responsibility to ensure students having earned a BB by abiding by all the styles & clubs rules doesn’t then become a menace to society (a thief, liar, cheat, killer, fraudster etc.).

If I put my name on a document to validate a person as genuine, has upheld a code of honour etc & then know that they later no longer values that code enough to continue to uphold it I have every right & responsibility to cancel that document which I signed off on. If I don’t I devalue the style, the other students, myself & my instructor by saying we all only talk about honour & its importance we don’t actually follow through, its all just talk (Paper tigers).

How it affects that person will very from nil to whatever, that depends on the value that person places on your respect & a pretty piece of paper. Certification has been & continues to be a source of pain & trouble & in my personal opinion isn’t worth the paper it’s written on, it’s what’s in your head & more importantly in your heart that counts. At the end of the day revoking a certification is more about doing what is right for the greater good rather than “punishing” an individual.

Yeah to bad Mark Twain marked this as the Ashida Kim Guilded Age. More martial artists than ever but we are poverty stricken with mediocrity.

[TroyRoget]

My instructor told me that he gets a couple of letters like that each year. I train with several different instructors, one of them I know has revoked a black belt before and another told me that revoking a black belt is as ridiculous as if your high school called you up and said "we heard what you did and we're revoking your diploma."

I heard of something similar happening; a professor had his Ph.D. revoked when he was caught plagiarizing in a publication years after receiving his degree.

[Lame Leopard]

I'm not sure where I stand. Sometimes a religious organization will "defroc" a minister for bad conduct. The minister knows as much as he ever did, but his representation of the religious demonination or organization is bad if he runs off with his secretary or steals funds or whatever. On the other hand, I don't think a high school or college has the right to take away a diploma or degree. Perhaps I am inconsistent in my thinking or my logic is breaking down somewhere. :confused:

[Grei]

The difference is, religious representatives are kept to a higher moral standard than regular people, that's in part why they're your religious representative of choice.

If you have a college degree, and then it becomes known that you're a fraud that learned absolutely nothing in college, it makes sense to take away the degree, because that's what the degree is for. Knowledge.

In such case... I don't think someone should get their belt taken away for a moral reason, because I feel the belt represents a level of fighting prowess, not some sort of moral high-ground. But some people see the belt differently than I, and so then they are justified.

It all depends on your school of thought, but as long as its valid... taking it away is highly questionable.

[Eliz]

I'm not sure where I stand. Sometimes a religious organization will "defroc" a minister for bad conduct. The minister knows as much as he ever did, but his representation of the religious demonination or organization is bad if he runs off with his secretary or steals funds or whatever. On the other hand, I don't think a high school or college has the right to take away a diploma or degree. Perhaps I am inconsistent in my thinking or my logic is breaking down somewhere. :confused:

Very good point, Larry. A very good point! When one's actions force a parent organization to stand trial on their judgments, so to speak, I believe said parent organization should have room to act in accordance.

I have never actually heard of someone having their BB revoked, but I have certainly seen the "who?" routine. A blatant denial [or lack of memory] that the person ever existed, ever trained, was ever seen on the mats, etc. Said overall denial would lead one to believe any paperwork was fraudulent.

[robar1]

The military will punch your ticket if you don't behave. Your skills remain the same. Your knowledge remains the same. Your rank just changes.

When I was training, on the wall was a set of standards..... one had to do with moral character. If you were given a BB based on criteria including having good moral character, it would seem that if you stopped being of good moral character then the support for the BB would also go away.

Robert

[Jeff C.]

I think we should reconsider the "Do your teachers morals matter?" discussion.

If my instructor was a sarcastice hole who would beat up on guys for fun (and I was fine with that), why should I care if one of my students is beating up kids behind the lunchroom?

Because, Jared, if your student was arrested, you too may be legally liable.

Jeff Cook

[khujo78]

That would make sense Doug, but that's not the topic at hand, as the sash wasn't revoked for something the student had done... it was something the student had forgotten. (besides, if they manage to get to black sash level and still forget their techniques... they probably shouldn't have gotten there in the first place.)

sorry got off topic...disregard my statement

[Sgathak]

I vote silly.

We say on this board all the time that a black belt doesnt mean much of anything... so taking it away doesnt mean much of anything either.

[spud]

Sgathak personally i think anyone who has been through the process of earning a BB should hold it very dear to them. If you then loose the validation behind it, it should affect that person if they have any honour left at all. Will it stop them from training or teaching else where probably not in most cases, will it change their skill level no.

It's more about saying this instructor, school or organisation will not be associated with those who choose not to follow the moral, social, ethical codes that they agreed to as a big part of earning that BB.

Skills aren’t affected only credibility & isn’t that a big part of being a BB, with responsibility comes accountability on a larger scale. You take on the role as a leader & what happens to leaders of any kind once they are dirty "Next".

[Kevin]

Why is the BB itself and the organization linked in the manner that has been asserted so far? While the organization may wish to sever ties with a member they no longer view to be in good standing, it would not be necessary to recind what he or she has already earned, unless the dan rank itself was gained through clearly illegal or unethical means.

[Sgathak]

Sgathak personally i think anyone who has been through the process of earning a BB should hold it very dear to them.
Why?


If you then loose the validation behind it, it should affect that person if they have any honour left at all.
Why?


It's more about saying this instructor, school or organisation will not be associated with those who choose not to follow the moral, social, ethical codes that they agreed to as a big part of earning that BB.
Maybe. But then again, maybe not. Ive heard of belt revokation being due to nothing more than hard feelings between instructor and student. The student may not have DONE anything wrong, but... there it is...


Skills aren’t affected only credibility & isn’t that a big part of being a BB, with responsibility comes accountability on a larger scale. You take on the role as a leader & what happens to leaders of any kind once they are dirty

BS... A black belt means youve got a rough idea of what your doing and your ready to start learning the hard stuff.

Leader? Ha! Ive seen black belts well in the good graces of their instructors who couldnt lead their left foot in front of their right, let alone lead other people.

If you think "black belt" means anything other "ranked higher than brown belt" youve been drinking the kool-aid.

[Bad Karma]

But we likes the kool-aid, Joe! Green kicks, arse!

Peace

[KayJay]

Why?


Why?


Maybe. But then again, maybe not. Ive heard of belt revokation being due to nothing more than hard feelings between instructor and student. The student may not have DONE anything wrong, but... there it is...



BS... A black belt means youve got a rough idea of what your doing and your ready to start learning the hard stuff.

Leader? Ha! Ive seen black belts well in the good graces of their instructors who couldnt lead their left foot in front of their right, let alone lead other people.

If you think "black belt" means anything other "ranked higher than brown belt" youve been drinking the kool-aid.

It sounds like you're grouping all holders of black belts together. That's like me hating all guys because one decided to screw me over. :t2:

Yes, I'm certain there are black belts that are exactly as you say. And unfortunately it's all too easy in a lot of cases to receive a black belt. Heck, I can just go online and order me one. Because of this, the "award" is cheapened and not looked upon favorably.
Then again, there are those that are committed both physically and spiritually (to a point) to the arts. Those that train long and hard and have good morals. Receiving the black belt means something to them...not that they have completed their training but only a part of it. They have earned it...and it does mean something.
And it's more than just a color.

[Sgathak]

It sounds like you're grouping all holders of black belts together. That's like me hating all guys because one decided to screw me over.

Uhh... Kara... what on earth are you talking about?

I read my post over a few times and Im seriously missing how Ive lumped ANYONE together.

[Luebbers]

I guess it depends on how you judge the level of black belt. If I can tap both the Nogeiras and Ricardo Arona, I've pretty much earned my black belt. But if BTT gets TO'd and "revokes" my BB because I won't pay a percentage of my purse to them, does that mean I'm not a "real" BB?

[spud]

Joe I’m sorry that a BB means nothing to you has no value & you couldn’t care less weather or not it’s gained & maintained via a ethical code. I’m also sorry you consider that if anyone has a viewpoint other than yours you consider them to have a substance abuse problem that affects their judgement so adversely that it no long lines up with yours exactly.

If on the other hand you wish to say something constructive regardless of your viewpoint I for one would be glad to hear it. No exact details were given on the opening thread as to the precise circumstances in this case. The point of view I gave in my threads were if the case was serious & a true breech of the ethical code some if not all instructors I know across a broad rang of the arts adhere too.

[Sgathak]

Joe I’m sorry that a BB means nothing to you has no value & you couldn’t care less weather or not it’s gained & maintained via a ethical code.
Wow, did I say that? No... hmmmmm.
Good job at trying to put words into my mouth however.


I’m also sorry you consider that if anyone has a viewpoint other than yours you consider them to have a substance abuse problem that affects their judgement so adversely that it no long lines up with yours exactly.
And speaking of "silly"....
Talk about getting worked up over nothing.
Wait, no, I take that back lest I be accused of saying you have an emotional disorder.:rolleyes:


If on the other hand you wish to say something constructive regardless of your viewpoint I for one would be glad to hear it.
Ummm... ok.


No exact details were given on the opening thread as to the precise circumstances in this case.
Noticed that did ya? Thats why I made my original statement as open as possible.


The point of view I gave in my threads were if the case was serious & a true breech of the ethical code some if not all instructors I know across a broad rang of the arts adhere too.
Huh?

[KayJay]

Uhh... Kara... what on earth are you talking about?

I read my post over a few times and Im seriously missing how Ive lumped ANYONE together.

Okay, how does one take this comment?
If you think "black belt" means anything other "ranked higher than brown belt" youve been drinking the kool-aid.After posting an example of how incompetent blackbelts can be in regards to their rank.
Sounds to me from that, that due to the lacking ability part of some blackbelts that becoming one is nothing more than a "color change".
If I've read into your comments wrong then pardon my misunderstanding, but that's the way I took it.

[Sgathak]

A black belt is a black belt.
Give it as much reverence as you want... its just a black belt.
Yeah, some people work REALLY hard to get that black belt, and they deserve to feel good about that accomplishment, but its just a black belt.

It doesnt have any magical power to make you a better person.
It doesnt make you any less fallible as a human being.
It doesnt make you more responsible.
It doesnt make you a leader.
It doesnt make you graceful.
It doesnt make you smart.
It doesnt make you taller.
It doesnt make you smell better.
It doesnt make you anything... but someone who earned a black belt.

You might still be pompous.
You might still be sarcastic.
You might still have a bad day.
You might still fall on rough times.
You might still talk a little too loud in mixed company.
You might still have bad breath when you wake up.
You might still fart.
You might still be a simple human... who earned a black belt.

If you are a leader, you are a leader with or without a black belt.
If you are responsible, you are responsible with or without a black belt.
If you are sarcastic, you are sarcastic without or without a black belt.
If you are graceful, you are graceful without or without a black belt.

Now, Spud made two comments and I asked him to expand upon those comments. I would still appreciate a response to those questions. I would still like to know why he feels that a black belt is to be held so dear, that to lose it should be such a crushing blow?

The belt was confered by simple humans, upon a simple human, and if taken away, it was done so by simple human action.

Like "X" in an algebra equation, It has no meaning but the meaning you give it.

[spud]

OK let me explain further if i can & answer your queastions.

1) what i said.
"Sgathak personally i think anyone who has been through the process of earning a BB should hold it very dear to them."

This is my personal belief only & the point of view i was trying to share. Yes sadly many have a BB but that doesn’t mean you are a BB eg. I was taught within the process to becoming a BB you must also develop a personal & moral code of conduct that you then use as a guide when conducting yourself within the MA community. You then allow that to flow into your everyday life until it becomes who you are. This process can be very self confronting & takes just as big a pain tolerance to work through as any physical training session. Through this process you evolve on many levels not just the physical. This process takes a huge effort & as such it should hold great personal value.

2)
"If you then loose the validation behind it, it should affect that person if they have any honour left at all."


Remembering the idea that you are the BB, it’s not the cloth around your waist.

Having that honour confirmed by someone you believe has & does demonstrate the true meaning day in & day out, should mean you ultimately trust value & respect their judgement. If in their judgement you are no longer worthy to receive their approval, be associated or recommended with or by them as they don’t believe you are living up to that standard, should be a huge blow.

What you said
"Maybe. But then again, maybe not. Ive heard of belt revokation being due to nothing more than hard feelings between instructor and student. The student may not have DONE anything wrong, but... there it is..."

I am talking about in the instance of a real case scenario in the context of the above.


"BS... A black belt means youve got a rough idea of what your doing and your ready to start learning the hard stuff."

I agree that once you get to BB you realize you have only taken the first step toward a true understanding of the art. Not about the BS though.

"Leader? Ha! Ive seen black belts well in the good graces of their instructors who couldnt lead their left foot in front of their right, let alone lead other people."

That’s a standards issue, not what I was talking about when referring to BB.

"If you think "black belt" means anything other "ranked higher than brown belt" youve been drinking the kool-aid."

I do think it means more & (read above) as for the cool-aid never tried it or want to.


I hope this has answered your questions & given you a much clearer understanding of where I’m coming from. Agree or not that's cool, as always it's up to each of us to make such calls & doesn’t make us better or worst in doing so. I wish you all the best in your training.
:D

[Tony Dismukes]

Because, Jared, if your student was arrested, you too may be legally liable.

Jeff, do you have any cites for a martial arts instructor being held legally liable for the misbehavior of a student outside of the dojo? What legal theory would support such liability?

[Sgathak]

Mark, thank you for your clairification.

I see what your saying but I still maintain that a belt, of any color, is just a symbol. It means only what you want it to mean. It can mean great things, or it can mean very little at all. As you say "you are the BB, it’s not the cloth around your waist", and taking away that cloth should mean nothing, because the cloth is just a cloth... YOU are the "black belt", and no possession of a cloth, scroll, or the approval of your superiors can EVER take THAT away.

[Bad Karma]

A black belt is symbolic to many people. I don't think it carries much weight or worth unless/until the person wearing has the worth - to me. This means a BB in some system that I have no interest in means nothing. This also means a BB on a person I view as incompetent means nothing. I wouldn't care what was done or not done to obtain the promotion or purchase.

The 3rd aspect, spiritual, is something very personal and unreasonable to hold other's to the same measuring stick when we are generalizing. We've covered the Physical and mental, but the spiritual is another creature unto itself. Up front, I am including philosophical ideals in this aspect. Some systems are very far removed from any philosophical/spiritual mannerisms. Some may be inbclined to bring Budo into the discussion and I have to respond with "which era, culture and whose ideals?" Again, it gets specific when we are being general.

I also recall some great discussion regarding who should and should not be able to wear a BB in the past regarding those physically unable to perform effectively, yet make excellent instructors, and those that are physically capable, yet unable to teach effectively. Should we have a separation of BB's and designate a special belt for each to keep the BB "pure?" Not so crazy an idea since some systems employ such a thing or at least did at one time. What about wrestling, boxing, and coaches in general?!

What's the worth of a BB - to you - if you want an instructor but they can't teach? What's the worth of a BB - to you - if need to be impressed but they can't perform?

Symbolism. Don't feed the ego and fall for the hype. The BB rank is just that and has no more and no less value than YOU have placed upon it. Appreciate it, enjoy it, but don't cling to it. I likes da Kool-Aid as much as anyone, but I don't crave it.

edit: OK, that's it! I'm going to find a way to freeze the forum while I'm typing - LOL!

Peace

[Sgathak]

Tony, I thought your post was excellent... and worded better than I could do.

[Yang Wei Xin]

Its kind of hard to take away something for which you have issued a certificate, however, if someone is making a poor example of themselves, i could see removing them as a representative of your lineage.

[wab25]

A lot of the points in this thread come from our point of view. That is from the martial artists point of view, specifically, how we view the black belt. A big part of this really involves the publics definition of what a black belt is and what it means. To the public, a black belt does indeed hold all those silly magical qualities and even all those silly honorable character traits. If a person shows up, wearing a black belt and has a certificate from a certain organization, parents may talk to the organization and find that yes, this person is a black belt, and thus assume all magical and honorable traits that they feel a black belt should have. Now, lets assume the guy is good working with kids, as a parent you may feel comfortable have your kid in his class. The problem comes in, when that guy happens to be a pedifile. If he still has his rank, and the organization knows about this, it would seem a bit unfair to the public. After all, we have a good idea of the public's expectations. If we simply pretend the guy doesn't exist, we leave it to the guy to come up with a good story for why. If, however, a parent found out that he had his black belt revoked, the parent will most likely ask some serious questions before enrolling their kids.

Of coarse, revoking a black belt does nothing to diminish the persons skill, and may or may not mean much to the person being demoted. But, it does send a warning message to the public. For some reason, the public does not see the black belt for what we see it as. They trust us, and whether they should or should not is irrelevant. The fact is, they trust us. I think it is the responsibility of the organization to present instructors that are worthy of that trust. And to the public, a black belt, recognized by an organization, is worthy of being an instructor.

[Jeff C.]

Jeff, do you have any cites for a martial arts instructor being held legally liable for the misbehavior of a student outside of the dojo? What legal theory would support such liability?

James Mitose and Nimr Hassan come to mind.

I'm certainly not a lawyer; I think a separate thread on this issue would be GREAT for discussion, Tony. Do you think we should start one?

Jeff Cook

[Jeff C.]

Tony, after a little thought, I think the risk would be mostly on the civil side - getting sued by the victim of one of our students. If we encourage antisocial behavior in our dojos, for instance - I have known instructors to encourage their students to get into fights to test their skills.

A good lawyer running student after student in front of a judge during a civil case could ask questions like: "Does your instructor teach you the legal ramifications of excessive use of force during his self-defense classes" and "So students from your school have been known to get into frequent fights. Has your sensei known of this and discouraged that behavior?" accompanied by "What kind of techniques were used during the battery?" Do you see where I am going with this?

Jeff Cook

[Tony Dismukes]

I think a separate thread on this issue would be GREAT for discussion, Tony. Do you think we should start one?

If you can find any cases of a teacher being criminally or civilly liable for a student's extra-curricular misbehavior, then sure. Absent such examples, we're probably just going to engage in empty theorizing. Your suggestion of a lawyer's line of attack in a lawsuit sounds plausible. Do we know if it has ever happened?

The Mitose/Hassan(Lee) case goes quite a bit beyond what we're talking about here. From what I'm reading, the court found that Mitose ordered Hassan (Lee) to commit murder. That's rather different from just failing to teach proper limits on the use of force.

[Yang Wei Xin]

you could create a contract which labeled your curriculum as trade secrets and prohibit anyone outside your organization from teaching it.

[TroyRoget]

you could create a contract which labeled your curriculum as trade secrets and prohibit anyone outside your organization from teaching it.

I'm pretty sure that would be entirely unenforceable.

[Jeff C.]

If you can find any cases of a teacher being criminally or civilly liable for a student's extra-curricular misbehavior, then sure. Absent such examples, we're probably just going to engage in empty theorizing. Your suggestion of a lawyer's line of attack in a lawsuit sounds plausible. Do we know if it has ever happened?

The Mitose/Hassan(Lee) case goes quite a bit beyond what we're talking about here. From what I'm reading, the court found that Mitose ordered Hassan (Lee) to commit murder. That's rather different from just failing to teach proper limits on the use of force.

Tony, I'm afraid I will just stick to "empty theorizing" then; I really have no interest to research for individual cases. The fact that it is civilly plausible is enough for me to (1) protect myself from this as much as possible in my own dojo; (2) to stand by my comment on this board that someone may be held liable in that situation. I have had dojo owners and a few lawyer friends warn me of liability issues; I'm afraid I did not challenge them to cite individual court cases. I pretty much just took them at their word, and acted accordingly.

If I hear of any I will certainly let you know. If you want some specific examples, AGAIN I suggest you start a separate thread to solicit for them. That might also be a good place to discuss the merits and complex nature of the Mitose conviction.

Jeff Cook

[Jeff C.]

Tony, I did find this for you, at http://www.ittendojo.org/articles/general-4.htm . It seems to make sense. Let me know what you think.

"Martial arts teachers’ liability:

Under the Theory of Agency, the principal is liable for unlawful acts which he causes to be done through an agent. There are three possible ways in which a martial arts instructor might be held liable as the principal for the unlawful acts of his students, as agents. First, if the instructor appears to ratify or approve of unlawful conduct, he may be held liable for the commission of such acts. Thus, a dojo which encourages the use of excessive force, or lethal force in inappropriate situations may be seen to ratify and approve of unlawful conduct. Similarly, an instructor who continues to teach a student who has abused his knowledge may be held responsible, if not liable, for subsequent torts.

Second, an instructor may be held liable for having entrusted a student with ‘an extremely dangerous instrumentality’. "[W]hen an instrumentality passes from the control of a person, his responsibility for injuries inflicted by it ceases. However, when an injury is caused by an exceptionally dangerous instrumentality, or one which may be dangerous if improperly used, a former owner or possessor may ... be charged with responsibility for [its] use...." The implications for instructors who teach potentially lethal techniques is clear.

Finally, an instructor may be liable for harm to the student or other parties as a result of negligent instruction. Anyone who holds himself out as an expert capable of giving instruction is expected to conform to the standards of his professional community. Thus, any instructor who, by his own negligence, fails to provide, teach and require adequate safe-guards and supervision, may be liable for any resulting injury."

Jeff Cook

[aplonis]

My college electronics prof advocated periodic re-testing of degree diplomas...with automatic revocation for those who forget all they had learnt.

He was a former English prof, who quit teaching to become an FCC broadcast engineer. Then he came back and taught engineering electronics. He graded all reports equally as much for grammer and spelling as for engineering content.

I imagine that the revoker might expell said individual from his organization...in which case he could not promote within that organization...and the black belt would from there would certainly loose much of its authenticity. They do revoke medical licences, after all, when there is ground.

But it should take some kind of due process. One would have to show just cause. A panel should judge. I don't think my old prof was expecting to be the sole judge. I don't think so.... :D

[jakmak52]

I have never heard of such practice, however, there was a BB competing in the US Open Executive Men's (50 and over) form division that was not 50 years old, he represented Team Paul Mitchell. NASKA took away his 1st place position and previous scores. :eek:

[dsimons]

That business should be kept within the individual school's community...not made public.