How you deal with?

[ghosted]

Ok has anyone else had to deal with this... How do you deal with "black belts" coming into your school & dropping challenges like their in a kung-fu movie? I had a guy come into my school & drop a challenge infront of my students, suposedly this guy was a retired instructor or something wanted to challenge me to a fight. Has this ever happened to anyone, or is this something that out there?

There are three other schools in my town, two karate & a hapkido school. I'm teaching jujitsu, ninjutsu & muay thai, we have two instructors/owner.

Thanks,
Ron Collins

[Musubi Dojo]

Decline politely and ask him to leave, call the police if he won't.
The police get paid to fight with crazy people and they have sticks and guns to do it...

[Webmaster]

Decline politely and ask him to leave, call the police if he won't.
The police get paid to fight with crazy people and they have sticks and guns to do it...
Agreed. You have nothing to gain from fighting him and everything to lose. He on the other hand has everything to gain, and nothing to lose. So ask him to leave and if he does not, call the police.

[ghosted]

I just laughed & said I was teaching... My partner wanted to fight him though. He said he was gonna come back...

[fightgrrl]

We have had challenges, but no takers
we'll offer people the opportunity to be sparring partners. tell them to sign a waiver and they're gone

[Chrono]

I've never seen this happen where I'm at. Of course I remember hearing that in a local tournament there was a little grudge match. That was over a guy claiming to be 3rd Dan in a matter of months and such.

[ghosted]

From my understanding he was one of Tracy Cook's old students, Sensei Cook was the one who taught my 2 shotokan sensei. He had a reputation for being an "old school street fighter" whatever that means. I'm not sure it was "old school mentality" or what the deal was.

Well later,
Ron

[dsimons]

We had a few bums come in at my old studio and ask us to 'rank' them, then they would get up on the mat and just do some crazy stuff they saw in the window of a TV store and then say: "So what, am I like a red belt or something?" It was funny, as long as they did not come in during classes.

[Eliz]

We had a few bums come in at my old studio and ask us to 'rank' them, then they would get up on the mat and just do some crazy stuff they saw in the window of a TV store and then say: "So what, am I like a red belt or something?" It was funny, as long as they did not come in during classes.

That is funny! :laugh:

We get some questionable characters, but nothing overtly threatening. Lucky for us, there is a school just down the road that attracts all the crazies (as it is run by crazies). On the off chance one wanders in our door, we just recommend them "on down the road." :D

[kmtsd]

We have had a couple crazies- one was drunk. My instructor asked him to leave... he was just looking for attention- but he left. Never had to call the police or fight them...
The crazy people do make me nervous- as a woman instructor I'm not up for fighting a crazy drunk man and thank god no one ever walked in while I was alone or teaching... but I guess I would call the police if I had to, and politely decline any "challenges".

[Webmaster]

We have had a couple crazies- one was drunk. My instructor asked him to leave... he was just looking for attention- but he left. Never had to call the police or fight them...
The crazy people do make me nervous- as a woman instructor I'm not up for fighting a crazy drunk man and thank god no one ever walked in while I was alone or teaching... but I guess I would call the police if I had to, and politely decline any "challenges".
Candace:

If you ever do run into some "crazy" like that, just remember that you don't have to play fair. Hose him down with some pepper spray and then kick the snot out of him. :up:

[kmtsd]

Hmm... good idea -we have pepper spray in our school too... I'll remember that.

[ghosted]

I remember when I was teaching a womans self/rape defense class. This girl was all "I don't need martial arts I have pepper spray..." So I asked her how she intended to use it, And when I was gonna show her how the "let me look away with arm extended to spary some pose", doesn't work. She sprayed me, & for a split second reflex took over & I punched her. I felt pretty bad about it.

That next monday she was in my class, when she realized pepper spray didn't bother me except for when it first hit. She decided she needed martial arts with the pepper spray. Now she's one of the most vicious security guards I've ever seen. Like that black-girl from police academy... :D

[Mark Barlow]

Nothing works all the time and I don't have much faith in pepper spray available to civilians but punching her out showed an alarming lack of control. It's a wonder you weren't sued. Fortunately, you were able to learn from the experience.

[ghosted]

Mark,

I don't think it was a lack of control as much as good response time, I'd think I reacted. Which is the point, before my mind registered pain it already respeonded to the attack. Thats a good thing, I train specificly for that, as do my students. In a real world encounter if you think about whats happening your already in the hospital or worse.

Now lucky I didn't get sued, you bet. Fortunately, the girl saw the realization of how important it is to be ready to respond to attackes. My classes are getting pretty packed. ;)

Later,
Ron

[Mark Barlow]

Ron,

If it made a point and you got more students, good for you. I mean that sincerely without any sarcasm. I understand your point of view but I think the first rule of teaching is to do no harm. It's not how I would have wanted to handle it but it's a big world with lots of different paths leading to the same destination.

Good luck in your training and teaching.

Mark

[Eliz]

I remember when I was teaching a womans self/rape defense class. This girl was all "I don't need martial arts I have pepper spray..." So I asked her how she intended to use it, And when I was gonna show her how the "let me look away with arm extended to spary some pose", doesn't work. She sprayed me, & for a split second reflex took over & I punched her. I felt pretty bad about it.

With all due respect, I think the situation started moving south along about the time you allowed her to have the pepper spray on the mats and asked her how she would use it.

A lot of women in those types of classes have preconceived notions about one thing or another. That is why the majority of them are there in the first place. The most popular one I get is, "everything you need to know about self defense is right between a man's legs. One good kick and the problem is over." In fact, if I had a nickel for each time I have heard that, I would be rich beyond my wildest dreams. :laugh:

Every instructor will have their own way of dealing with students like that. I try to just build onto what they think they already know. In actuality I'm starting at the beginning, but it really doesn't come off that way. It comes across more as "alternatives" to their already immense accumulation of knowledge and expertise. :up:

[DragonMind]

I don't think it was a lack of control as much as good response time, I'd think I reacted. Which is the point, before my mind registered pain it already respeonded to the attack. Thats a good thing, I train specificly for that, as do my students.
That was a lack of control. You ALREADY knew she had the spray and was positioned to use it. You were not attacked, just surprised at some beginner not "attacking you correctly". You had no call to hit her and your excuse of "reacting before thought" doesn't fly. You had every reason to expect what she did and could have responded appropriately. Keep that crap up and you will see the inside of a courtroom sooner than you think.

[ghosted]

Actually Dragon, I was expecting her to hold the spray not mace me. Which was I told her "show me how you intend to use it." Not "hey mace & see if I can counter. All that was required was for her to hold the can, I wasn't moving fast enough to startle her. She told later on, a few monthes afterward, that she intentionaly sprayed me to see if I was being honest about mace only working 20% of the time & mostly against stray dogs.

I've been to enough trials as an "Expert Wittness" in issues where self-defense & the law clashed. I was trained to fight, I teach the same thing to my students. As for reacting without thought, isn't that what we train for? Conditioning ourselves to react on reflex without contious thought? Last time I checked thats what Zen/Daoist philosophy was about, acting purely without contious thought or emotion clouding our judgement...

Later,
Ron

[DragonMind]

As for reacting without thought, isn't that what we train for? Conditioning ourselves to react on reflex without contious thought? Last time I checked thats what Zen/Daoist philosophy was about, acting purely without contious thought or emotion clouding our judgement...

Later,
Ron
Reacting without thought does not imply reacting without responsibility. You failed to judge the situation properly and reacted inappropriately. If you think that mushin means unnecessary violence is justified by reaction time, you have seriously misunderstood the concept.

[QuaiJohnCain]

Ghosted-

I studied in a kwoon that maintained a policy to accept walk-in challenges. Two purposes- to get a taste of what else was out there, and, it was one of the head instructor's ways to show us students that we weren't wasting our time. Anything less WOULD have been a waste. Execution of pacifism is NOT a high expression of Martial Arts. It's an expression of social conduct. Sometimes, it spells suicide, hence the need and use of Martial Arts. You should be teaching THAT, not "conduct" that your students should have learned in the third grade.

[AllanJGAnderson]

Ghosted-

I studied in a kwoon that maintained a policy to accept walk-in challenges. Two purposes- to get a taste of what else was out there, and, it was one of the head instructor's ways to show us students that we weren't wasting our time. Anything less WOULD have been a waste. Execution of pacifism is NOT a high expression of Martial Arts. It's an expression of social conduct. Sometimes, it spells suicide, hence the need and use of Martial Arts. You should be teaching THAT, not "conduct" that your students should have learned in the third grade.


I disagree on nearly every point you have tried to make. Pacifism IS the ultimate expression of martial arts in my book. Think of the old japanese adage, 'The quickest blades are hardly ever drawn'. Before I studied martial arts I used to get into fights all the time, and I considered myself 'tough'. Now that I've trained and I know how to neutralize a violent situation with actual technique and theres no doubt in my mind that the baggy-clothed suburban-ghetto self-apointed tough guy could be taken out in a matter of seconds, I don't need to prove this not to myself or anyone else. THAT is the ultimate expression of martial valor. Just like the saying, "Only a warrior can choose pacifism, all others are condemned to it." I for one CHOOSE pacifism.

[QuaiJohnCain]

It has nothing to do with "machismo". It's about astringent testing of what you THINK you've learned. I would be most interested to hear of a method that tests abilities without actually throwing down....

[Bengel]

Execution of pacifism is NOT a high expression of Martial Arts.

I disagree.
Kano (judo), Ueshiba (aikido), Funakoshi (karate) and the Shaolin monks (wushu), to name but a few, all advocated pacifism. Pacifism defined as 'Opposition to war or violence as a means of resolving disputes'.

In ancient times, the martial arts were used in war, hence martial. Nowadays, they are mainly used as a method for self-defence, sport and/or a way of personal growth (Do). Resolving disputes without violence is a high expression of Martial Arts, in my opinion. You can go home with all your limbs and bones in tact and get to work the next day.

Violence is a last resort measure - when your body, integrity or goods are put at such a risk that you can only protect them through appropriate violence to stop the threat.

Social conduct and martial arts are inextricably linked together. Martial arts without social conduct is a trainingcamp for bullies and sociopaths. I think we can do without that reputation.

If you want to get a taste of what's out there, go train there. Or fight in MMA or K1 tournaments.
Students will let you know if you are wasting their time: they will stop showing up.

If you really want to test your abilities, go to the local biker bar and tell them they all look gay in their leather jackets whilst urinating on the biggest Harley on the parking lot.

To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War

[Musubi Dojo]

Ghosted-

I studied in a kwoon that maintained a policy to accept walk-in challenges. Two purposes- to get a taste of what else was out there, and, it was one of the head instructor's ways to show us students that we weren't wasting our time. Anything less WOULD have been a waste. Execution of pacifism is NOT a high expression of Martial Arts. It's an expression of social conduct. Sometimes, it spells suicide, hence the need and use of Martial Arts. You should be teaching THAT, not "conduct" that your students should have learned in the third grade.

Uuummmm...Not sure where to begin. I wrote this huge rant and then figured it was just a waste of time.

To say I disagreed with you would be an understatement.

Cheers
c

[Musubi Dojo]

If you really want to test your abilities, go to the local biker bar and tell them they all look gay in their leather jackets whilst urinating on the biggest Harley on the parking lot.


Hehehe....That sounds a lot like the rant I just erased.

Peace
c

[Bengel]

Yeah, I was in a ranting mood. Although I do think it made sense.

[ezzthetic]

There was a really good story in JAMA you should check out, John. It was Vol. 12 No. 3 - 2003: "THE MASTER: Chinese Boxing Accounts in an Envelope." ;)

[QuaiJohnCain]

I said nothing about picking fights. I'm talking about accepting competitive matches, hardly the same.

If you think your only potential enemies out there are limited to "baggy-clothed suburban-ghetto self-apointed tough guys", you must either still be in college, or are rich and live in la-la land.

[Mark Barlow]

"I would be most interested to hear of a method that tests abilities without actually throwing down...."

Some of my roughest fights have been friendly matches between other dojo and styles. Bow in and bow out and everything in between is pain and suffering. Afterwards, we compared notes and hopefully, both gained something from the encounter. It wasn't a p***ing contest, it was a training experience.

To me, "throwing down" implies that you can't control yourself or your emotions. Except for self defense, I choose where, when and with whom I randori.

Again, if your students don't mind getting punched to demonstrate a point and you have sufficient insurance to deal with the eventual lawsuit, more power to you.

[Musubi Dojo]

Yeah, I was in a ranting mood. Although I do think it made sense.

Nice work. :D
c

[aquaticthoughts]

As a former police officer in the Uk where we werent armed the best weapon anybody is equipped with is their voice....
We often got asked how do you get out of **** situation if it happened? the answer was dont let it get to that situation in the first place....use your voice and body language to diffuse a situation.
So what if someone walks in off of the street? you have nothing to prove to him or anybody else.You know the level of your training and abilities.You know what you would have to do if actions are needed in a situation...Accepting a challenge like that would set a bad example. Like others have said politely decline...Fighting a challenge proves nothing..walking away shows you to be the bigger person

[Webmaster]

Like others have said politely decline...Fighting a challenge proves nothing..walking away shows you to be the bigger person
Then you pepper spray him and kick the snot outta him! :D

Just kidding. Really not sinking to their level is really the best way to go, and Darren is right, it also shows you are the better person.

[aquaticthoughts]

LMAO the only other problem I came across as a cop (and former military) is that a lot of people myself included are immune to cs spray,pepper spray etc..A lot of people in the military train with this stuff all the time...spray them in the face and all its gonna do is get you a bigger whacking lol

[QuaiJohnCain]

THIS IS WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT!!!!

[quote]To me, "throwing down" implies that you can't control yourself or your emotions. Except for self defense, I choose where, when and with whom I randori.
Semantics, semantics, semantics... It seems you are more interested in "being right" than having discourse.

[Musubi Dojo]

Semantics, semantics, semantics... It seems you are more interested in "being right" than having discourse.

Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves. - Carl Jung

Cheers
c

[QuaiJohnCain]

As a former police officer in the Uk where we werent armed the best weapon anybody is equipped with is their voice....
That's fine- for COPS. Joe Schmoe's voice will NOT have the same effect.

We often got asked how do you get out of **** situation if it happened? the answer was dont let it get to that situation in the first place....use your voice and body language to diffuse a situation.
Sometimes, real trouble goes looking for the innocent- usually in the form of a sucker punch....

So what if someone walks in off of the street? you have nothing to prove to him or anybody else.You know the level of your training and abilities.
Not without testing. That's my point.

You know what you would have to do if actions are needed in a situation...Accepting a challenge like that would set a bad example. Like others have said politely decline...Fighting a challenge proves nothing..walking away shows you to be the bigger person
Look, I agree if some macho meat-head walks in beating his chest wanting a fight, but I am referring to POLITE competitive matches. Now, my teacher did take on the a-holes as well, and by the time they walked out, they were humbled and in some cases became new students....

Your comments on pepper spray are funny. It makes me wonder what strength of spray you were issued- there is Pepper Spray so strong that it will blister your skin. You needed THAT.

[Yang Wei Xin]

Accepting a challenge is a difficult proposition. You have no way of knowing who the person is or what they're level of skill is, so you are forced into a position of using maximum force to keep from dishonoring your schools reputation. I'd say calling the police is definitely the easier and smarter way out.

[MMAfighter]

Tell the guy to get a life and to stop watching kung fu movies

[MMAfighter]

but if he/she really wants to fight you guys should sign up for the next fighting tournament

[ghosted]

I disagree on nearly every point you have tried to make. Pacifism IS the ultimate expression of martial arts in my book. Think of the old japanese adage, 'The quickest blades are hardly ever drawn'. Before I studied martial arts I used to get into fights all the time, and I considered myself 'tough'. Now that I've trained and I know how to neutralize a violent situation with actual technique and theres no doubt in my mind that the baggy-clothed suburban-ghetto self-apointed tough guy could be taken out in a matter of seconds, I don't need to prove this not to myself or anyone else. THAT is the ultimate expression of martial valor. Just like the saying, "Only a warrior can choose pacifism, all others are condemned to it." I for one CHOOSE pacifism.

I may agree with you on pacifism being a choice. But not with the rest of it. The quickst blade is never drawn, because your already dead... If you attack you attack, attack with intent, if you are attacked you counter attack with intent. True intent does not require boasting or threats, it can be felt in the presence of the person who is focused on that intent. Like your quote "Only a warrior can choose pacifism, all others are condemned to it." All others are condemned to being pasifist because they don't fight for themselves. "Tis best to die a single death in battle, then 10,000 deaths a coward." paraphrased from some guy during the coloinal era. lol

Pacifism, much like communism, is a good idea on paper. But, it doesn't work in the real world. Some people, those in the extreme, aren't gonna respect your self control. Any sign of weakness will only spur them on. Thats why I don't agress but I refuse to back down... Psuedo-pacifism lol

Later,
Ron

PS- Justin, I'm thinking of setting up a MA tournament in about 6 month if my reserve unit doesn't go to Iraq in September.

[Mark Barlow]

My main concern was, and still is, what I see as a lack of control by an instructor. Saying that you train to respond to a threat and you did what you were trained for is fine...as long as you're not the instructor and have, whether you realize it or not, agreed to train students and protect them from themselves (and apparently you) during that training.

Students in my class get banged up and bruised and blood is not uncommon. Pain is an element of training. However, I don't pop a beginner for doing what I told them to do. If you take on the responsibility of teaching a class, please accept responsibility for their welfare, too.

[poetic misjustice]

I may agree with you on pacifism being a choice. But not with the rest of it. The quickst blade is never drawn, because your already dead... If you attack you attack, attack with intent, if you are attacked you counter attack with intent. True intent does not require boasting or threats, it can be felt in the presence of the person who is focused on that intent. Like your quote "Only a warrior can choose pacifism, all others are condemned to it." All others are condemned to being pasifist because they don't fight for themselves. "Tis best to die a single death in battle, then 10,000 deaths a coward." paraphrased from some guy during the coloinal era. lol

Pacifism, much like communism, is a good idea on paper. But, it doesn't work in the real world. Some people, those in the extreme, aren't gonna respect your self control. Any sign of weakness will only spur them on. Thats why I don't agress but I refuse to back down... Psuedo-pacifism lol

Later,
Ron

PS- Justin, I'm thinking of setting up a MA tournament in about 6 month if my reserve unit doesn't go to Iraq in September.

This happened to my teacher a few months back, he just said "the only reason i let people in here is to watch, or to learn, never to play at being bruce lee.

[MMAfighter]

PS- Justin, I'm thinking of setting up a MA tournament in about 6 month if my reserve unit doesn't go to Iraq in September.
Well hopefully you don't have to go. My cousin was sent there about a few about two weeks ago, he's in mississippi for another two months before he's shipped off. But if you don't have to go, make sure that guy knows not to come to your dojo and start trouble again then tell him he needs to stop watching those kung fu movies, because they're called MOVIES not real life

[Cla68]

Coincidentally, there's currently a similar thread on another MA forum site about "dojo yaburi" or guest challenges. After reading in Kancho Ninomiya's book, "My Journey in Karate" where he describes going around to his different dojo in his hometown in Shikoku and challenging the black belts and instructors, I've always wondered if that happened here in the US. It appears that the people who do it here are kind of "kooky" instead of legitimate budo-students looking to improve their skills through challenges. Perhaps there are enough open, full-contact tournaments here to satisfy the need for challenges by those serious MA practitioners who feel that they need them.

Nevertheless, in his book, Ninomiya recounts how after he opened his dojo in Denver two guys came in off the street and challenged him, one in front of his class, and one when he was alone in the dojo. He immediately accepted their challenges, defeated them, and sent them on their way. He made clear to them before they started, though, that they weren't "sparring" but fighting until submission or knock-out. That direct way of dealing with that type of situation may be part of the karate culture that Ninomiya comes from and obviously may not work for everyone or every situation.

[Rokto Obotar]

If they have to challenge you to a figh toutside of sparing or a tournament then they shouldnt be a balck belt first of all second they probally arent that good or are way to cocky to win. people like that should have their belt taken away by the Martial Art police. Its rediculous because as a black belt your taught to protect not to challenge its just stupid ive seen it happen we just tell him off, or walk away(ask him to leave th dojo).332.
3 because some one will definitly get hurt.

[DragonMind]

If they have to challenge you to a figh toutside of sparing or a tournament then they shouldnt be a balck belt first of all second they probally arent that good or are way to cocky to win. people like that should have their belt taken away by the Martial Art police. Its rediculous because as a black belt your taught to protect not to challenge its just stupid ive seen it happen we just tell him off, or walk away(ask him to leave th dojo).332.
3 because some one will definitly get hurt.
The "Martial Art police"?!? Please tell me you're joking. And please try to show that public education has not wasted tax dollars by using proper grammar, spelling and punctuation. You've already lost your opportunity to make a good first impression. Please attempt to repair the damage from here on.

[Koshu]

Necromancing this thread because our dojo tends to experience a little different twist on the "challenges" made by certain wannabe martial masters, and wanted to see if others have had similar experiences.

We've had our share of people strolling into the dojo like it's a Wild West saloon looking to test their skills. (One guy, a newly minted kickboxing black belt, once brought four people as back-up --- now there's a challenger with confidence in his ability!). When these formal challenges have arisen, we've usually been able to talk to them and convince them to leave. Since we train cops, and at any given time there's police presence at the dojo, it's very likely that if it came down to it, the threat of immediate citation/arrest for trespassing and/or assault could get the challenger to back off.

What's a bit more diabolical though is that challengers sometimes pose as would-be students, come to try out a class, then attempt an ambush attack during a demonstration. Very chicken-sh**, but very dangerous! This has always ended badly for the challenger, and at least one has had plenty of air under him as he's crossed the threshold of our door while in mid-nage. In the aftermath, they typically cite that they've heard of our teacher's/school's reputation as self-defense specialists, and just wanted to see if we're for real. I know this thread started with mention of black belts (who should know better), but the last guy to do this was a yellow belt who attacked my teacher and found out that there's a significant difference between the skills of a kyu and an 8th dan! I personally think it's unfortunate whenever you find yourself in a position to have to use the physical aspects of your martial arts, but especially against a fellow martial artist who's breached trust to do something so stupid.

Mert

[Erik]

Ok has anyone else had to deal with this... How do you deal with "black belts" coming into your school & dropping challenges like their in a kung-fu movie? I had a guy come into my school & drop a challenge infront of my students, suposedly this guy was a retired instructor or something wanted to challenge me to a fight. Has this ever happened to anyone, or is this something that out there?
We had a JJJ guy come in to our BJJ school and do just that.

Our guy, one of the top BJJ black belts, shot a simple double-leg takedown. The JJJ guy posted and broke both arms, the bones shooting through the skin.

The guys at the BJJ club took him to the hospital.

Our black belt was completely astounded. That was the last thing he expected to happen.

Go figure.

[Matthew Jones]

I prefer to play stupid and then tap out everyone in the room. Only done this once, but it was a lot of fun. Especially when you overhear people whispering to each other... "he got you too... head and arm choke"

hahahaha, that is the closest I'll ever get to Yaburi.

[Brandon Fisher]

Agreed. You have nothing to gain from fighting him and everything to lose. He on the other hand has everything to gain, and nothing to lose. So ask him to leave and if he does not, call the police.
I agree completely. Anything else is a waste of time and energy.

[stuart stratford]

Why the hell did he whant to fight anyway he must be fresh wako school of the stupid. If he comes back and starts to be violent ask him to leave and if he thinks he is the boss still then let your students giv him the leson on how to leave the with respect for you and dojo or leave in a bag or two.:devil: :laugh: