Why is leg Sisiccors banned in judo?

[skurk]

I was at my last Judo class and seen it pulled off but the instructor told him not to do it cause its baned in competition.It seems like a good move so why isnt allowed?

[Jeff Burger]

Its banned because og a high rate of injuries.

Jeff

[starkjudo]

Its banned because og a high rate of injuries.

Jeff

At least, that is the IJF's offical position. Personally, I think it's a great technique and I wish we got to see it in tournaments.

[MMAfighter]

since we're on the subject is slamming allowed in judo? Like say we're in the guard then BAM slam or someone tries a triangle..BAM

[Abbax8]

If you mean pick them up then drive them into the mat, then NO, that is an automatic Hansokumake (disqualification). In shiai, if you pick someone up who has you in the guard, the ref will yell matte and return both of you to a neutral position.

I too question some of the "illegal" techniques. I use to love using the body scissors when me and my friends wrestled. In Sambo competition, leg locks are allowed. I wonder how many injuries are really caused by idiots who only care about winning and not doing judo?

Peace

Dennis

[skurk]

Thanks for the replys. Im not going to attempt to do that till im good enough is that an effective and pratical technique?

Also why we are at it what are some other banned techniques?

[Abbax8]

Dojime-Body Scissors can and has caused internal injuries.
Daki-Age-High Lift (from the guard) a very good technique, but you can break a skull or neck.
Other illegal techniques- Kawazu-Gake- an entangled leg back sacrifice throw. In pro wrestling circles years ago it was known as the "Hangman".
Kani-Basami- Crab Pinch ( a flying scissors throw)- has caused broken legs.

Peace

Dennis

[starkjudo]

The thing is, I am not entire sure kani basami deserve a ban due to safety. There are a number of techniques that have been judo-banned due to sucess as much as anything. The Cuban's back to chest osaekomi for one, Pedro's forward rolling kataguruma - these smack of politics more than safety issues - the IJF is not above that. One reason i've heard for the ban on kani basami, was that it broke the legs of the son of a former IJF president. Take that for what it's worth. In the same vein, i've seen video clips of one or two European player's O Uchi attacks that pass completely over the line into kawazu gake.

Some stuff will liekly be banned in the future, some will be allowed back in - but it's often as much political as safety concerns. That's my two cents.

[Abbax8]

Rob,
Your two cents are probably ON THE $$$. I really dislike the trend I see in shiai judo, techniques banned, newaza limited, etc. For my part I prefer to let my students randori and explore the full range of techniques with some exceptions (Kawazu-Gake is one). Kani-Basami is a good technique, and we do a lot of Newaza- heck it's our regular warmup.

Peace

Dennis

[Rich]

I love Kani-basami. I think it was banned in the eighties because I remember being taught it and using it then being told it was banned due to the risk of broken legs.

Richard

[Bengel]

Here is a link on the evolution of judo contest rules: http://judoinfo.com/rules2.htm
Also mentions Kani-Basami:

Another safety rule adopted was the banning of kani basami (flying scissors) after Yasuhiro Yamashita received a broken ankle from the technique endangering his entry in the 1984 Los Angeles Olympic Games (where he won the gold medal).

[Ellis Amdur]

Yamashita was competing against a little-known university judoka (I believe). Truth is, the technique was at least waza-ari, if not ippon, but he didn't get anything at all. Basically, the judges were not going to let Yamashita NOT go to the Olympics, so they ignored it. Yamashita was asked about it after the match and, certainly put in a difficult position, said, "Well, it's the first time I've ever seen the ceiling of the Budokan."
There was a more interesting aftermath. In the finals, Yamashita was competing against an Egyptian man of equal size (though not close to his skill). He purposefully did not attempt any leg sweeps or other attacks on Yamashita's injured leg, and only attacked his strong side. Yamashita threw him for a win. When asked about it, the Egyptian guy said that it wouldn't have been an honorable win - he only wanted to beat Yamashita power to power, not by taking advantage of an injury.
Lots of people in Japan didn't get it - saying it was a sport and if Yamashita was playing, the other man should have simply tried to win with any advantage he had. Comparitively few noticed that he showed more of a true judo spirit than the judges who fixed Yamashita's way in, or even Yamashita himself, who accepted what truly was a tainted victory.
Which leads me to think, today, of Michele Quan demanding a bye into the Oympics ahead of a girl who won her way there fairly.

Best

[Margaret Lo]

Which leads me to think, today, of Michele Quan demanding a bye into the Oympics ahead of a girl who won her way there fairly.

Best

BUT, in 1994, when Tonya Harding practiced her excellent weapons technique on Nancy Kerrigan's leg, Nancy Kerrigan applied for and received a bye to the Olympics, thereby knocking out the young prodigy who had qualified for the Olympics, who was....guess...Michelle Kwan.

So, I think Michelle Kwan earned this bye. Now if only she'll let herself go emotionally enough to win that gold. Update on Tonya Harding, now she's a boxer, what a surprise! :D What a shame she resorted to cheating, she was way better than Nancy (stiff as a board) Kerrigan.

M

[Tony Dismukes]

Dojime-Body Scissors can and has caused internal injuries.

Doesn't that just mean squeezing with the legs from the guard? I've had some strong guys squeeze me in the guard. It can be uncomfortable if they have a big size/strength advantage, but I've never felt close to injury. Given the amount of time BJJ players spend in the guard, you'd think someone would have noticed if it was really a safety hazard.

[jwinch2]

Given the amount of time BJJ players spend in the guard, you'd think someone would have noticed if it was really a safety hazard.
Good point Tony!

[Abbax8]

I will admit I am repeating what I have read about Dojime. If the size differential is great, I can see an injury occurring. Of course if it's randori, or even shiai in my opinion, any submission technique should be applied slowly to permit uke to tap.

Peace

Dennis

[Lee82mark4]

I changed my mind.


Mark

[kumite]

Doesn't that just mean squeezing with the legs from the guard? I've had some strong guys squeeze me in the guard. It can be uncomfortable if they have a big size/strength advantage, but I've never felt close to injury. Given the amount of time BJJ players spend in the guard, you'd think someone would have noticed if it was really a safety hazard.

From my experience it's not so much being squeezed in a "standard" guard as it is when you get a different angle. Take the UFC match between Ivan Salaveery(sp?) and Joe Riggs. Ivan got him with a body triangle when Riggs It was a devastating submission that had Riggs yelling "My back!" before he tapped. I think it really has to do with the angle of the squeeze. When I go for a rear naked choke or any technique where I can wrap my legs around their torso; I try to keep my legs right around the lower ribs(floating ribs?) and keep steady pressure. As they fight off the choke or other attack I keep squeezing like a constrictor to limit the amount of room their lungs can expand on each suceeding breath. I usually get the tap from that before I do with the other attack.

[wab25]

I think angle and point of attack make a lot of difference in dojime. I have been shown a couple of ways to do this. First is from the guard position, however, you have to move your knees up to squeeze the ribs. There is a big difference between squeezing under the ribs, and right on the short ribs. The second way, and more effective way, in my opinion, is from the side. You place one knee under uke's spine, and the other on his solar plexus. They taught me by saying "remember that spot you avoid in doing CPR chest compressions, now is the time to find that spot, and do what the CPR guys are afraid of doing." In my limited experience, if you get the knee on the solar plexus, they tap very fast and feel it for a while. Both these attacks, feel much different than being squeezed in someone's gaurd. Will they do internal damage? I don't know. But if I had to bet, I'd bet on the one from the side doing the most damage.