martial arts as a path?

[aquaticthoughts]

Hi guys I was a member here a year or so ago but couldnt remember my screen name...I have a couple of questions..
In the past I have started in a couple of martial arts, as a child Judo,in the army Shotokan Karate and a year or so ago tang soo Do this was because my 4 year old daughter wanted to do it but not alone..
Unfortunately she refused to do it in front of everyone just wanted me to learn and teach her at home....The only trouble was I just couildnt afford the $80 a month to pay for classes (and still cant)

I hope one day to be able to afford to start martial arts again,another reason for wanting to do it again is for the inner peace side of things....I am not religious, I do not follow a religion...but when practisiing it gave me a sense of wellbeing so to speak...I am generally a very short tempered person I tend to get angry at the slightest provocation and need something to calm my mind...

I like the idea of meditation or just that short time alone in your thoughts (I usually get this in the basement dealing with my fish tanks)...

I'm sorry this is all long winded just wanted to add background to my situation, to cut a long story short does anyone else here not follow any religion...But instead use their martial arts as their direction in life inner peace, goals etc?

Thanks for your time

Darren Cook

[Sabuhm]

Hello Darren,

It seems to me, if I understand you, that you are asking if the Martial Art can be a substitute for religion. Perhaps you are wondering if it can be practiced as a religion itself, or if you can use the Martial Art principles, and tenets as a guide for your life in the absence of belief in any particular religion.

First of all, I will speak from my point of view. I do not view the Martial Art as a religion, nor do I believe it can be practiced as one, or be a substitute for one. Could someone live without religious convictions or beliefs, and use Martial Art as a path of guidance? Yes. However, I believe your life would be empty, and missing the inner spiritual essence that the Martial Art is designed to enhance.

It is like doing CPR (heart compressions), and Artificial Respiration (manual breathing) on one of those First Aid Dummies. It's good practice, but you are never going to bring the dummy to life. Martial Art without spiritual faith is just going through the motions physically. It is empty and without life or spirit. The tenets of a Martial Art program can give you rules to live by, and guidance in your daily life to keep you honest, trustworthy, hard working, and many other positive charactersitics, but there would be lacking something deep down in the core of your being.

This is just my personal opinion, but I believe that each person's faith in what they do not know, and belief in a supreme being, God, or any other religious doctrine is their own personal journey to discover. It might take time, and be confusing, but it is well worth the effort. The practice of religious faith that is positive, and not negative, can only serve to help you, and make your personal life, your family life, and your community better because of it. The Martial Art is designed to support those beliefs, whatever they are (provided they are positive).

In my interpretation, your Martial Art philosophy should teach you the "art" of living and appreciating the value of life. "Stop and smell the roses" so to speak, and respect other people's rights. It should provide you with a better understanding for a "way" of doing things ideally to yield ideal results. It should present to you a "path" of just and right behavior so that as you seek your spiritual connection, you refrain from contaminating your mind, and body with sin, an polution. If the fog of corruption is so heavy around you, you would not see spiritual enlightnement if you tripped over it. :wink2:

Also, if you really want Martial Art education for you and your daughter, talk to different instructors. One of them is likely to help you find a way past the financial burdens. Some people have priority issues. They waste plenty of money on hobbies, smoking, or alcohol, and say they can not afford Martial Art training. Others need to be given ideas how they can work to raise the money they need. As a last resort, a good instructor will allow you to do some kind of work at the dojo/dojang, in exchange for your tuition, or as a discount.

Hope all works out for you. :bow:
James Jerome
Taekwondo Sabuhm

[MMAfighter]

Since i started judo I've felt more focused and able to do more things then before. I also feel that I've started to be a little more religious too which is good, because just about a year ago i was questioning my faith but now I'm back full believer(as in i believe in god, jesus, heaven, ect.). But I've also felt that I'm more focused in things like school and such which is really good so if you're asking if MA can be a way to be a better person in general then yes. Also I'm slowly becoming a better person in general IE being a little nicer and polite

[Yang Wei Xin]

Martial arts obviously can't replace religion, but it could be a tool to inner thought.

Perhaps this is why Bodhidarma saw fit to make it a part of the curriculum of the Shaolin monks.

[jailess]

Hello Darren,

[Massive Lecture]

James Jerome
Taekwondo Sabuhm
James, the above post is absolute nonsense. Like it or not, there are millions of people out in the world who are living perfectly happy lives without religion, and plenty religious people who are depressed as hell. The idea that you can only have a full and rich life by believing something that can't be proven is complete rubbish.

Darren: Most of the ShorinjiKempo practitioners I have met have SK in place of where religion would normally be in their lives. Certainly, in Japan it was only recently deregistered as a religion (this was made necessary by recent legal changes in Japan). Most of the Japanese high-ranked instructors hold a Sokai (philosophical) ranking in Kongo Zen Buddhism (the type of Zen that the founder practiced) and some hold Priesthood rankings.

Even if you don't want to be a priest, there is a huge amount of philosophy to delve into and intermixed with the training method. We get tested on philosophical points for gradings, in fact. So ShorinjiKempo can be either good exercise, a good philosophy, or your religion, depending on how deep into it you go. But if you have a religion already, it doesn't conflict with it: one of our old Blackbelts was Muslim, another few have been Christian, etc.

I am atheist myself, but think of ShorinjiKempo as my philosophy, and it occupies the bit of my brain where a religion would be normally. And I don't think I'm any less of a person for not having a religion.

James' last paragraph, I must admit, was excellent advice: if you want to learn a martial art and are prepared to study hard, working something out with a local instructor might be the way to go.

[Aikido_Girl918]

I practice a form of practical Aikido similar to what Steven Segal teaches. I am not religious, I used to be, but that was because I was blindly following my parents religion. Since I started martial arts, I have become less and less attached to the religion that I used to hold so dear. Practicing martial arts has become a religion for me. Especially after I realized Ki energy and began to believe in it. It led to a world of possibilities fo me. There are many happy people who don't follow a religion, like me. On the other hand, many people are happier with there religion. I know one woman who's region is keeping her business going, in a roundabout way. It depends on you. It's not something that any of us could advise you on. Some people enjoy practicing the martial arts as a religion, some don't. You have to try it to see if it will work for you or not. In answer to your question, yes, I do.

[Eliz]

James, the above post is absolute nonsense. Like it or not, there are millions of people out in the world who are living perfectly happy lives without religion, and plenty religious people who are depressed as hell. The idea that you can only have a full and rich life by believing something that can't be proven is complete rubbish.

...and members wonder why Religious discussions are discouraged! :rolleyes:

The original post was a basic question concerning MA's and spirituality. James answered by stating his own belief/opinion. It was very clear to me that his post was strictly based on his own thoughts and not intended to start a flame war.

I think the original post is a good question and it would be nice if we could carry on an informative [non-heated] discussion.

[Eliz]

...does anyone else here not follow any religion...But instead use their martial arts as their direction in life inner peace, goals etc?
Darren Cook

No.
See how simple that was? :D

In all seriousness, I practice religion and I am very spiritually grounded within my faith. For me, there are many things that bring inner peace - I don't have to be sitting in a church or praying to experience this.

I have my own mat time before classes begin and I generally request some time to myself (Aka - clear the mat), and that quiet and solitude to go through my forms is a great source of inner peace.

So are long walks on the beach in the dead of winter. So are a lot of things. In all, these things don't replace my religious beliefs - they enhance them.

Could MA's be used as a sole directive in a spiritual journey? Many practitioners embrace organized faiths or variations thereof. I personally don't know of too many spiritually free floating MAists that have withstood the test of time.

[Rasputin]

James, the above post is absolute nonsense.

Elizabeth is right on. Whether you like someone's message or not, the way to handle it here on Budoseek is to state your opposing viewpoint, NOT by disrespecting a previous poster.

As for the OP, I would say it depends heavily upon the culture in which you were raised. Asian martial arts developed in a Confucian/Taoist culture, and these fed well into the different types of arts which people practiced. One reinforced the other. We westerners ("people of the book") developed religions which were less involved with focusing upon perfection on this world and more focused on what happens after we depart it.

Martial arts are usually (but not always) focused upon what happens in the here and now. If you integrate Zen into your art, you can use meditation to try and escape the wants and needs of material society, but even that is more a "now" thing and less an afterlife thing.

If you feel the need for religion, seek it. There are plenty to choose from. Some aren't even after your money. :D

[aquaticthoughts]

Thankyou everyone for your imput....I have been interested in Buddhism for a while just never really looked into it more and have since got some books to tell me more about the different versions of Buddhism (never knew there was all different kinds lol)
I do like the idea of the meditation aspect as I have always had good mind control,to the point of being able to block out the pain when I had stitches in my back...
After hearing everyones views I think it would make me a more rounded person long term to have that extra something so I will have to look harder and find which buddhism path is right for me ...
Thanks again everyone for the replies its much appreciated

[jailess]

Fair enough, sorry about that.

I just have a problem with the idea that religious faith is some sort of zenith, and that if you don't experience it you haven't lived a full life. In studies religious people tend to be happier than agnostics/atheists, but I think that is because they have a philosophy to live their life by, plus/minus the promise of a future reward for their good behaviour (depending on the religion). I think that a lot of that can be provided by the more philosophical martial arts.

[Bengel]

There are many ways to give direction to your life. Martial arts is an important factor that influences my life. The etiquette in the dojo and the philosophical tenets of the great teachers give meaning to my life. It's just not the only influence; family, friends, education, religion, work etc. can all bring meaning and direction to life. Whatever works best for you.

Simple things like bowing to your partner before and after a training exercise give meaning to the social 'contract' to which you are bound when you are in the dojo. You agree that you will not intentionally damage your partner and afterwards you thank each other for working together.

I love the way in which Kano and Ueshiba focussed on the mutual welfare of people. You are there not just to train for yourself but to get everyone to a higher level. Tori (the one who executes) is not the only one who is leaning a technique. Uke (the one who undergoes) is learning the technique as well, just from a different point of view. Tori is responsible for selfimprovement but also to make his or her partner a better uke and vice versa. Take this outside the dojo as well and your Jitsu (art) has become a Do (path).

In my jiu-jitsuclub we do not just interact on the mat, we socialise outside the mat as well: a drink in the pub or celebrating birthdays, graduating from college, birth of a child. It's important to get to know the people that you hit on the mat in real life as well ;). It creates a bond of trust.
Every year we go to France for a week of training in another style (Nihon Tai-jitsu) and have a great holiday with French and Spanish martial artists. All those elements give meaning and direction in my life and that's why martial arts are important to me.

[Abbax8]

My opinion is that just as we need to take care of our bodies through good food, exercise and rest, we also need to take care of our mind/spirit/soul (whatever your personal belief). The body will not maintain a status quo, especially after achieving physical maturity, it is a down hill slide. Proper exercise and nutrition can stave off the effects of aging. Also, the stress of day to day life wears on our minds and feelings of well being. Without some sort of regular "exercise" for the mind, it is a downhill slide. A religion or philosophy that helps to recharge you is in my opinion just as necessary as the physical training for the body.

Peace

Dennis

[Cliff Hargrave]

My opinion, martial arts and religion should be completely separate.

If you get peace from working out hard then by all means go for it. However many people find that same feeling doing all sorts of things. Martial arts have no extra benefit over any other activity that takes focus, time, energy, and dedication.

Many westerners took to the eastern cultures and religions along with the martial arts, but they are separate things. To me that is like someone in another country practicing Christianity just because he wanted to learn basketball.

So seek out your spirituality and also get involved in an activity that requires your efforts, goal settings, self improvement, and such. They are both beneficial but not the same thing.

[Cliff Hargrave]

Especially after I realized Ki energy and began to believe in it.


If I were your parent I would yank you out of that class so fast it would make your head spin. Your mind has been poisoned by a charletan. I hope some day an adult saves you from this. You are 13 years old and you need to stop listening to that garbage.

[Aikido_Girl918]

If I were your parent I would yank you out of that class so fast it would make your head spin. Your mind has been poisoned by a charletan. I hope some day an adult saves you from this. You are 13 years old and you need to stop listening to that garbage.

Wait just a minute here. I did not of learn the "mythical" ki energy directly through martial arts study. I learned of that on this forum and started to research it a bit. I never heard the word "Ki" in class or even in the dojo until the day I spoke it. Don't blame my instructors for my own curiosity. And before you assume anything, my beliefs are extremely loose right now as I am just trying to figure out which way is up right now. I am tired of following my parents religion without any reasons to do so. Just because I believe something now doesn't mean I will next week. But I will take your ''advice'' while trying to sort out my beliefs.

[Cliff Hargrave]

Wait just a minute here. I did not of learn the "mythical" ki energy directly through martial arts study. I learned of that on this forum and started to research it a bit. I never heard the word "Ki" in class or even in the dojo until the day I spoke it. Don't blame my instructors for my own curiosity. And before you assume anything, my beliefs are extremely loose right now as I am just trying to figure out which way is up right now. I am tired of following my parents religion without any reasons to do so. Just because I believe something now doesn't mean I will next week. But I will take your ''advice'' while trying to sort out my beliefs.

That was a much better response. My concern, other than the fact that I personally believe Ki/Chi is a bunch of bunk, is an instructor that would introduce ideas to you that are in direct contradiction to your parents. Unless they are abusive, or involved in some off the wall cult, they should have the final say in your upbringing. Once you are of age then you are free to do as you choose.

We attend church as a family, the choice of my wife and I together. If any adult, instructor/coach/teacher/whatever, tried to influence my children to a different belief system then I would be confronting them fairly quickly.

At your age you shouldn't even be worrying about this stuff. Concentrate on your training but don't let it take over your life.

[moogong]

Fanci, you need to put your name back in profile. Thank you.

[Aikido_Girl918]

Also, Mr. Hargrave, my parents do not force their beliefs on me. I am in a Christian homeschooling program, however I am free to choose my beliefs, as long as I still get good grades in school( my semesters were A's and B's, which they were happy about). They do not get involved in my beliefs very much. Right now I am trying to avoid religion anyway, but Ki is different, and as I said, my beliefs are very loose.

By the way, thankyou for prasing your posts gently, Mr. Hargrave. :)

Fanci Russellot

Edit: Martial Arts took over my life a while ago, but I make sure I stay down-to-earth, get good grades, and keep up with my chores. Some people enjoy having a life outside of their work/school, I don't. I enjoy focusing my life outside of chores/school on the Martial Arts. My parents allow and support it, as long as I keep upi with their requirements.

[Cliff Hargrave]

I am in a Christian homeschooling program,

Well they are doing a great job because you are extremely articulate for 13 years old.

[jjaje]

I'm going to go back to the original post for a second. Often, people put too much emphasis on a minor benefit of an activity or object when possibly a more efficient major benefit of a different activity is available.

For example, lets say you want to make your computer faster. You have the choice of putting in a faster hard drive for $300 which will yield a 1% improvment, or replacing the main processor for $300 which will yield a 20% improvement - which option do you choose?

(1) If as you say you are
I am generally a very short tempered person I tend to get angry at the slightest provocation and need something to calm my mind... then in all honesty, your money would be better spent seeking professional help on this subject instead of martial arts training. The carry-over from martial arts training into this portion of your life would be small compared to the cost. Would MA training be the most "common sense" thing to do? Also, as John Wayne put it in the Cowboys "I'm not in the habit of throwing kerosene on a fire" - and martial arts instructors shouldn't be either.

(2) There are a million things a 4 year old little girl could do, where she could be a participant instead of learning things through a "Second hand" system. Again same theory, wouldn't your resources be better spent finding something she would enjoy and participate in more?

To answer your question
But instead use their martial arts as their direction in life inner peace, goals etc?
No, I do not.

The problem with using the Martial arts for your direction in life, inner peace and what not is that all MA organizations are run by people. And people are not perfect and eventually these people whom you are relying on for your inner peace and direction are going to fail you and let you down. Then where would you go? What is it in the end you would have faith in - your ability to beat someone up? I think connecting learning how to hurt people and inner peace is a tenuous connection at best?