Makiwara training.

[onnie]

This subject has come up before, but I want to talk about training. I would like to know how others train on one. Choki Motobu and Gichin Funakoshi books showed some postures and stances. For a while I trained the "traditional stance" punch thing. Then about Ten years ago Shian Toma Sensei was at my house. I asked him to show me how he trained on the Makiwara in my little home dojo. First he pointed at the padding and made a agh sound as if to say "weak, sissy". Then he said to high. He squatted down a bit in a normal fighting-like stance. On the lower wood part did a back fist followed by a punch, almost as one strike. Lots of power! He did this many times. That changed my training.
Brandon

[Budoka34]

Brandon,

Great subject. I like the uraken to zuki as well.
I also practice a passing finger flick followed by gyakuzuki.

Only recently have I added foot movement the the techniques I practice.
I will hop, for lack of a better discription, from right kamae to left and strike with oizuki.

Another that I really enjoy is urazuki to gyakuzuki while dropping the hara.

Our makiwara is very firm so padding is a must. We have a very old Sureido leather cover.

[onnie]

Even though Toma Sensei said something about my cover, I kept it anyways. As to firm. My Makiwara is in a foot or so of tubbing coming up from the floor. What I have seen lately mine my be way to firm. I plan on putting one in the ground to see how much of a difference.

I try to do my strikes and punches from fighting type stances. I also stand in front of it in a very natural like posture with hands at the side. Then do a reaction like punch as fast and hard as possible.

Fist, my first finger is only bent at first knuckle with the thumb bent over it. This is all the time Kata, kumite. Every time I make a fist. I do not always turn my fist over like a traditional Gyaku-tsuki. Kind of at a 45.

[Budoka34]

Brandon,

I think the fist you are discribing is what we refer to a "Shuri" fist.
I was also taught it for makiwara.

When I say our makiwara is firm I mean it has no give at all. :eek:
It is not a good style for developing power, but does wonders for developing bone density and conditioning.

We have discussed shaving it down to make it more flexable, but I kind of like it the way it is. We have two of this type and one wall mounted for more dynamic punching.

At home I just hit and old tire. :D

May I ask where you are located?

[onnie]

Bakersfield, Calif.

[uechidrew]

In our Dojo the Makiwara is used not only for seiken "full fist" striking but bushkin "palm and thumb knuckle" strikes, wrist blocks, and hiraken strikes "4 knuckle". We have two makiwaras, one with the shureido lether pad and one wrapped in rope. The rope one works well for developing shoken "one knuckle strike". I particularly enjoy our Makiwara as they are not too wide which helps me focus my strikes in a small target area.

[Gene Williams]

Brandon,

I think the fist you are discribing is what we refer to a "Shuri" fist.
I was also taught it for makiwara.

When I say our makiwara is firm I mean it has no give at all. :eek:
It is not a good style for developing power, but does wonders for developing bone density and conditioning.

We have discussed shaving it down to make it more flexable, but I kind of like it the way it is. We have two of this type and one wall mounted for more dynamic punching.

At home I just hit and old tire. :D

May I ask where you are located?


Interesting. I was taught the "Shuri" fist my first karate class 35 years ago and still do it. It is a stronger fist. Incidentally, the turn over fist where the fist rotates all the way to horizontal during the punch is the innovation (I think Shotokan). The old 45 degree fist is the Okinawan fist I've always seen and been taught.

[CEB]

.....

When I say our makiwara is firm I mean it has no give at all. :eek:
It is not a good style for developing power, but does wonders for developing bone density and conditioning. ....


How does this develop bone density? I'm curious about the biology. I hear the bone density reasons reffered to often by karate people. Conditioning I understand but increases in bone density I don't. Thanks

[Budoka34]

What is the most dense bone in the body?

The calcanei or heel bones. This is, in part, due to the constant stresses placed on the bone daily. The equivalent of Hundreds of thousands of pounds of pressure weekly.

The idea, at least the way I understand it, is that the constant stressing through impact of the bones of the hand cause increased calcification.

I'm a wimp when it comes to pain, but I have no difficulty flat smacking my hands on wood, steal, or stone. My hands are consideably larger and firmer than when I began training them 6 years ago. Another "side effect" of proper training is that all my arthritis symptoms have ceased. :)

[Budoka34]

Gene,

I was taught it shortly after starting with Shihan Wilcox.
We also teach the 45 degree fist.

What are your thoughs on Tatezuki with the thumb on top of the fist.

Is this a "left over" from the Chinese influences on Okinawan Karate?

[Gene Williams]

Gene,

I was taught it shortly after starting with Shihan Wilcox.
We also teach the 45 degree fist.

What are your thoughs on Tatezuki with the thumb on top of the fist.

Is this a "left over" from the Chinese influences on Okinawan Karate?


I have never done tate zuki with thumb on top. The guys I know in Isshin ryu do that. I was always told that it was a left-over from Chinese influences and I have read that, but I've never heard anyone give a definitive answer. CEB or Rousselot might know. The Shuri fist is supposed to be stronger for tate zuki to the head area because it gives the wrist more support. Thumb on top may allow you to squeeze the knuckles a bit tighter, but if you weaken the wrist in the process (which I feel it does) it doesn't matter. I don't know much about Chinese MA, so some of those guys may know an answer.

[CEB]

I don't know the whys behind the Isshin fist. I would ask Steigner Sensei at e-budo.

As far as Chinese influeneces I think one has to be more specific. China is a real big place and basically anything in any sort of karate can be compared to "tied" to Chinese influences based on casual empirical observation, but that is just me.

One physical characteristic of thumb placement in making a fist I believe effects dynamics of how the fist functions is thumb how many finger the thumb covers. In Shorin the fist I was taught covers only one finger and that feels beter on the makiwara. I believe it is a stonger fist at the point of contact. In Goju Ryu we trained covering two fingers. This does two things....... oops got to go

[Gene Williams]

I don't know the whys behind the Isshin fist. I would ask Steigner Sensei at e-budo.

As far as Chinese influeneces I think one has to be more specific. China is a real big place and basically anything in any sort of karate can be compared to "tied" to Chinese influences based on casual empirical observation, but that is just me.

One physical characteristic of thumb placement in making a fist I believe effects dynamics of how the fist functions is thumb how many finger the thumb covers. In Shorin the fist I was taught covers only one finger and that feels beter on the makiwara. I believe it is a stonger fist at the point of contact. In Goju Ryu we trained covering two fingers. This does two things....... oops got to go

We cover one finger; it is stronger. Ditto on Chinese influence. I think the Southern Chinese styles influenced Shuri more, if I have read my history right.

[Budoka34]

Ed,

Understood.

I prefer the notion that fist strength comes from the pinky side of the fist and is reinforced by the position of the thumb. This causes a natural slight curvature of the hand and places the first and second metacarples inline with the wrist.

BTW we cover two fingers (index and middle) with our thumb.

[Gene Williams]

We make fist by 1.) close pinky, ring, and middle finger tightly, 2.)fold index finger so that it extends along the base of the thumb, 3.) thumb covers index finger and may touch middle finger, 4.)squeeze pinky tightly, along with thumb. When I make my fist, I form a natural ippon ken with middle knuckle because my knuckle and first joint have enlarged from maki training and knuckle pushups over the years. I like it; my students hate it. :D

[TonyU]

Good discussion everyone. Keep it up.
I have much to add since eveyone pretty much covered it,

I make my fists, tightenting from the index and middle fingers to the pinky.
My thumb covers the index and slightly over the middle.

[onnie]

I like the feed back. I came upon the fist on my own. My first teacher did not have the traditional out look. It is also very easy for me to form the ippo-ken fist. As to knuckles, family members have commented on them. I have heard others say they have seen on change while training. I do not see how.

[onnie]

Thumb over two fingers. I couldn't get my thumb over two fingers if I put them on racks a stretched them of a week. I have stubby hands, but I can do some hurting with that thumb.

[shoshinkan]

a post on the makiwara use, just the ticket !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

personally i use three main things to hit, traditional and proper makiwara (should have about 6-8 inches of movement when fully leant on), heavy bag (sawdust filled) and the sand basin.

Each serves a different purpose for different strikes.

On The Maki I work the following, three times a week for about 20 mins, little and ofteen is the key to good, safe progression

Seiken (i dont use the shuri fist anymore)
Middle Knuckle
Backfist
Hammer Fist
Palm
Knife Hand
Elbow
Knee
Toes
Heel

I dont find much benefit on moving around the makiwara, the bag and a partners are better for that, I also dont have alot of room around mine which might be a factor.

Anyone interested in proper makiwara from the UK, visit www.makiwarapost.com superb equipment.

[Gene Williams]

I don't see much purpose in moving around the maki, either, although it is fine if someone likes it. 3 times a week/20 min. sounds about like what I used to do and encourage my students to do. Now, it is more like twice a week for 20 min. for maintenance, with more heavy bag. I mostly strike: seiken (I can't make anything but Shuri fist comfortably I've been doing it so long :) ), riken, shuto, tettsui. I like to hit the maki BEFORE I do kata. It makes the kata feel better, if that makes any sense.

[TonyU]

I like to hit the maki BEFORE I do kata. It makes the kata feel better, if that makes any sense.
Actully it does, like a good warmup.

[onnie]

I move the sides of the Maki so that I have a good angle for haitto. Also I get up close and to the side a bit for up close shuto and other fist tsuki and uchi, non kata type. As to ippon ken, I find it a little hard on the finger-knuckle for hard strike so I do those on a heavy bag or stand up bag. I still do some conditioning ippon ken strikes on the Maki but not at full power. It would be nice though!

Curious as to the number of hits per hand from others. Depending on the day and between the different types of tsuki and uchi, I do some where between 100 to 500 per hand. I do not time my-self, just go until I feel I have done the job. Some at full power some not. Thoughts on this.

[TonyU]

Curious as to the number of hits per hand from others.
When I was hitting it daily, which btw I will be able to again shortly, I didn't hit more than 100 per hand.
It was enough.
The quality is more important than quantity.
Plus one has to be careful not to be doing more damage than good.

[Gene Williams]

I move the sides of the Maki so that I have a good angle for haitto. Also I get up close and to the side a bit for up close shuto and other fist tsuki and uchi, non kata type. As to ippon ken, I find it a little hard on the finger-knuckle for hard strike so I do those on a heavy bag or stand up bag. I still do some conditioning ippon ken strikes on the Maki but not at full power. It would be nice though!

Curious as to the number of hits per hand from others. Depending on the day and between the different types of tsuki and uchi, I do some where between 100 to 500 per hand. I do not time my-self, just go until I feel I have done the job. Some at full power some not. Thoughts on this.

I don't hit with ipponken on the maki. I mainly use it to soft areas anyway, but it is great on the ribcage and to the inside of the knees and elbows :) I used to strike 50 seiken each hand, then change to shuto, then tettsui, etc. Then go back through again, In my shodan/nidan days, I'd hit the damned thing all day. Now, although I've had no problems, a physician student of mine says he would worry about arthritic changes as I get older. So, I do a maintenance routine, as I mentioned above. That keeps my knuckles tough, and keeps my punches and strikes sharp. I've never timed myself. I like slow and methodical on the maki...punch...0ne thousand...punch...one thousand, etc. Lots of hip snap when doing gyakuzuki and make sure the punch snaps back with as much speed as it went out with. Man, during a good maki session, don't you just feel like you could bust some thug's head like a watermelon!!!...sorry, just lost myself for a minute :eek:

[shoshinkan]

LOL,

re the shuri fist it has taken about three months to stop using it auomatically, about the same time it took to learn it.

Its effective but im into bullett proof hand formations and I just dont like the lack of support for the index finger, if the strike is a little inaccurate then you could be in trouble.

Re the maki training I go with the flow but aim for about 2 reps of 25 for everything these days, nice and methodical at about 60%-80% power, tis enough.

[Gene Williams]

LOL,

re the shuri fist it has taken about three months to stop using it auomatically, about the same time it took to learn it.

Its effective but im into bullett proof hand formations and I just dont like the lack of support for the index finger, if the strike is a little inaccurate then you could be in trouble.

Re the maki training I go with the flow but aim for about 2 reps of 25 for everything these days, nice and methodical at about 60%-80% power, tis enough.

That just shows the difference in different backgrounds and training. When I change out of the Shuri fist, my index finger feels less supported. Plus, I'd rather break my index finger than my wrist. Good discussion.

[onnie]

It looks like I am on track as to good Maki training from the posts. If I had not done my home work and started slow I could have had some injuries. As to the shuri fist, if I do not have the thumb over the index finger it does not feel strong and my wrist feels weaker while training. The time in between punches are at the one one-thousand. I leave the faster type punches to the bags.

The Maki training is more for the "Issen Issatsu" idea. Maybe not to that degree. but at least to break a bone where you hit. Arm, leg, what ever the bone.

[Budoka34]

I used to strike 50 seiken each hand, then change to shuto, then tettsui, etc.

Gene,

You made my day. I practice a very similar series.

I do 100 or so seiken on the left and 80 to 100 on the right. My right seemed to develope much more rapidly.
Then 50 to 100 shuto, haito, haishu, tesho, etc...

[shoshinkan]

That just shows the difference in different backgrounds and training. When I change out of the Shuri fist, my index finger feels less supported. Plus, I'd rather break my index finger than my wrist. Good discussion.

Its only a personal preference, I have to admit thaat i think the shuri fist does give better energy transfer, penetration etc etc.

Couple of other reasons I dropped it for punching are -My research is leading me to think that its prime use is as an aid to developing gripping strength, it doesnt like round punches much and with a standard fist I can make single middle knuckle quicker as requried, which is my prefered soft target strike.

In fairness not so long ago I was called into action and the shuri fist did very well for me :karate: so im happy that it works well enough.

Re the wrist strength, yep i see your point, but thats where my bag work comes in, I likle to really lay into the bag as it seems to test the wrists due to the angles/movement involved.

Its a bit like using the small knuckle for hammer fist, yep it works and it definatly does more damage, but using the muscle of the hand is just bullet proof, the bottom 2 knuckles are not well supported for hitting things hard.

[Gene Williams]

Try making middle knuckle with Shuri fist, squeezing really tightly with thumb and pinky. I have a lot less give that way than with the JKA fist. I pretty much have begun just making all my fists ipponken fists. That way I have the extra weapon right there. It doesn't even interfere with maki training. I have been told that about grip strength and the Shuri fist, too, but I have never been specifically shown that that is why we did it that way. Maybe it is just one of those taken-for-granted things.

[shoshinkan]

Hi There again ! a nice conversation is good for the spirit!


I have looked at making the straaight index finger fist witht he middle knuckle formation (getting complex now) but I ruled it out due the possible damage to the index finger, just my stance on it.

I think i remember finding out that most of our grip strength comes from the bottom three fingers, with the thumb and index finger wrapping whatever we are gripping to complete.

If you look at sword work and bo work this seems to have merrit, but i must stress that i have reworked my karate for the sake of teaching and therefore have gone for a very simple approach to such things.

With an accurate strike I actually believe the shuri fist to be superior, but life aint accurate all the time!

[Gene Williams]

I understand what you are saying. Yes, I practice iaido and the bottom three fingers do most of the gripping, of course, you don't grip a sword very tightly, bo either. Interesting discussion. Thanks.

[onnie]

Getting a little of track but what ever. I am with you both as to where you get your grip. I do Kobudo out side of my systems weapons also Iai. But what really makes it for me is while doing many of our systems tuite. With the fore finger straight the hand places pressure with that knuckle by torquing the hand. All the grip is from the thumb and three other fingers. A lot of these are on the arm and lower arm, wrist.

This has been a great tread and shows the level of knowledge readily available by the members of this group for those who ask. Train hard and often!

Brandon