Nijushiho (Niseishi) variations

[ezzthetic]

Do any of you practice Nijushiho? For the longest time this has been my favourite kata and I'm looking at it now from every possible angle. I'm wondering about the different variations, from style to style. I understand for example that some versions have more circular motions than the linear JKA style version I've practiced. I also know that JKA technical director (at the time) Tetsuhiko Asai added a yoko geri kekomi to the JKA version, the only kicks I know off in the kata.

Do you have anything interesting to tell me about this kata? :) I'm especially interested in absense of the technique neko seiken from my version.

[Sochin]

Interesting...

Our Nijushiho has three kicks, two strange foot lifting kicks near the start and the mae geri keage at the end.

And, if we do a "neko seiken", no one ever mentioned the name. What is it? Does it really translate as "cat punch?"

At the start, we punch and do an elbow strike out of a cat stance...

[ezzthetic]

Wow, sorry I missed your post somehow! Thanks so much for the reply.

That's extremely interesting! Is that mae geri right at the very end, the last motion?

I do believe that it is indeed "cat fist" and is similar to kakuto. The origins of this kata can be traced back from Okinawa to a Fujian He Quan style.

At the start we do pull back into kokutsu dachi, slide forward for gyaku zuki in same stance and then pull up into the elbow strike in a very short zenkutsu dachi like stance. (slow - fast - slow).

[Gene Williams]

Wow, sorry I missed your post somehow! Thanks so much for the reply.

That's extremely interesting! Is that mae geri right at the very end, the last motion?

I do believe that it is indeed "cat fist" and is similar to kakuto. The origins of this kata can be traced back from Okinawa to a Fujian He Quan style.

At the start we do pull back into kokutsu dachi, slide forward for gyaku zuki in same stance and then pull up into the elbow strike in a very short zenkutsu dachi like stance. (slow - fast - slow).

We call it Niseishi. No kokutsu dachi, lots of elbow strikes. Unusual kata.

[TroyRoget]

This is a kata I am interested in learning. I should talk to my teacher about learning this one.

[ezzthetic]

We call it Niseishi. No kokutsu dachi, lots of elbow strikes. Unusual kata.

What stances does the kata use throughout? We use kokutsu dachi, zenkutsu dachi, sanchin dachi, kiba dachi and fudo dachi. The JKA version has a few elbows, aside from the elbow in the opening sequence we have two combinations of tate-empi, gedan barai and gyaku zuki and then finally a mae empi + gedan barai combination.

I understand that there were really two pretty distinct versions taught in Okinawa back in the day, one that can be traced back to Azato and one that ran through Aragaki.

[Gene Williams]

What stances does the kata use throughout? We use kokutsu dachi, zenkutsu dachi, sanchin dachi, kiba dachi and fudo dachi. The JKA version has a few elbows, aside from the elbow in the opening sequence we have two combinations of tate-empi, gedan barai and gyaku zuki and then finally a mae empi + gedan barai combination.

I understand that there were really two pretty distinct versions taught in Okinawa back in the day, one that can be traced back to Azato and one that ran through Aragaki.

Neko ashi, zenkutsu, shiko.

[ezzthetic]

hmm... I think kokutsu dachi and neko ashi dachi are interchangable between versions (mine and yours) as far as embusen goes. Interesting to know which one is innovation and which is original... if either is, that is.

[Gene Williams]

hmm... I think kokutsu dachi and neko ashi dachi are interchangable between versions (mine and yours) as far as embusen goes. Interesting to know which one is innovation and which is original... if either is, that is.


If it has kokutsu dachi it is Shotokan and not the original.

[ezzthetic]

If it has kokutsu dachi it is Shotokan and not the original.

You mean kokutsu dachi itself is a purely Shotokan innovation? Interesting.

[Gene Williams]

You mean kokutsu dachi itself is a purely Shotokan innovation? Interesting.

I have never seen it in Okinawan ryu. There may be some that do it that I'm not aware of, but they must be pretty obscure. Once in a while you will see a cat stance with the front foot extended a bit more and the heel up, but it doesn't approach the JKA kokutsu. Kokutsu for us is a leaning stance, like the last move of Pinan Godan.

[CEB]

FWIW we have a stance we call kokutsu dachi but it doesnot look anything like the Shotokan one. It is basically a zenkutsu where you face the other way. As in Seipai before you shift into zen and throw karate chop and first kick.

[TonyU]

I'm only familiar with this kata in name only. Never seen it, not that I aware of anyway.
Anyone have a clip or a link to one, so I can look at it.
Thanks.

[ezzthetic]

I'm only familiar with this kata in name only. Never seen it, not that I aware of anyway.
Anyone have a clip or a link to one, so I can look at it.
Thanks.

This is the JKA version: http://breidablik.is/upload/files/nijushiho.mpeg

I'd love to see any of the other, more original versions.

[Sochin]

http://www.shotokan-arts.com/katavid.htm

offers two versions, a classic and a modern version. They are similar and both are different from the way I was taught. The classic has the opening I was taught but the timing and expressiona re different. So are the side thrust kicks while facing the back and the long sweeps of the hand high in the air.

[Gene Williams]

I can't get that link to work. Ryuei Ryu does a Niseishi, and some Shito ryu do it. Wado does one that is different from the JKA one. It is an unusual kata. I do not know its origins.

[TonyU]

Nice kata. I like some of the applications.
For lack of a better term; the windmill move is that a strike or a throw or a combination there of?
Looks very strong and devastating.

[Sochin]

We do it with an open hand so I always just considered it to be a 'block' with the unbendable arm routine, probalby to the outside of the elbow.

I've never been taught a specific app.

[Gene Williams]

Unbendable arm is a party trick.

[Ron Davis]

Niseishi I believe comes from the Arakake lineage. At least the Shito ryu version is I am not sure about the one of the ryuei ryu. I know that the shotokan version has adapted side kicks where as the older Shito ryu version has front kicks in it. Same basic patteren though of course cat stances instead of Back stances.

[TonyU]

This is the move I was talking about, with what I believe was a twisting motion. Looked very powerful when done on the clip.
Interesting what you can find on Google.
So, any suggestions as to it's application.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v338/aburena/niju18.jpg

[Gene Williams]

A buddy of mine in aikido showed me how to make it a tenchi nage, but I don't think that was the original application, at least not like the aikido folks do it. :)

[Sochin]

Ahh, good picture. I can't really comment because we never bring the right hand forward into that position in a reverse stance. We do it quite differently.

In the left stance we have the left hand swing up to look much like this in a lifting motion but once we engage the right side, we step forward with various techniques.