word for "self-defense"

[Gene Williams]

I have been told, by what I think is a reliable source, that there is no equivalent in the Japanese language (omitting borrowed words) for the term "self-defense." If this is true, it has interesting implications. I only speak a little Japanese and read even less. Help me out here.

[Rasputin]

Hardly a credible source, but:
http://www.animelab.com/anime.manga/dictionary/go/880/40

lists "Goshin" as "Self-Protection", among other definitions. Close enough or am I being led into a trap?

[Gene Williams]

Hardly a credible source, but:
http://www.animelab.com/anime.manga/dictionary/go/880/40

lists "Goshin" as "Self-Protection", among other definitions. Close enough or am I being led into a trap?


Dear God, David!! :laugh: Delete all before, "but."

[Rasputin]

http://www.freedict.com/onldict/jap.html
http://linear.mv.com/cgi-bin/j-e/dosearch?sDict=on&H=PS&L=J&T=goshin&WC=none&FG=r&BG=b&S=26

Here are a couple of others which give the same result.

[CEB]

No Goshin is the right answer. Goshin Jutsu was the last kata created in KodoKan Judo. 1956 I think. Too lazy to look it in my KodoKan Judo book.

[Gene Williams]

Yes, but I need the kanji. I'm having trouble finding them in Nelson. Some of the internet stuff is just closest approximation. Goshinjutsu is a modern term. I am told that the concept of "self-defense" was never a part of the samurai ethic.

[Rasputin]

Can't help you. I could probably rig up some heiroglyphics, though, if you really want pictographic language.

[Gene Williams]

Yes, but I need the kanji. I'm having trouble finding them in Nelson. Some of the internet stuff is just closest approximation. Goshinjutsu is a modern term. I am told that the concept of "self-defense" was never a part of the samurai ethic.

We cross posted.

[Rasputin]

See, now, wouldn't this have been easier if we started off knowing that? Really narrows down the target audience of those who might be able to help you.

[CEB]

N4447, N4601

?

[Gene Williams]

See, now, wouldn't this have been easier if we started off knowing that? Really narrows down the target audience of those who might be able to help you.

I guess I assumed too much insight and understanding on the part of the readers of my post :bow: :D

[Gene Williams]

N4447, N4601

?

Again, N4447, goshin, is a modern word included in Nelson. N4601, "mamoru," does not mention "self." It talks about guarding, protecting, observing, etc. There is a "self-defense sword" listed, but that is not very specific.

[CEB]

4447 ..............

[CEB]

OK you found it sorry for the SPAM

[TroyRoget]

Jeffrey's Japanese <-> English Dictionary (http://dict.regex.info/cgi-bin/j-e/dosearch?sDict=on&H=PS&L=J&T=goshin&WC=none&FG=r&BG=b&S=26) has never done me wrong. Here (http://dict.regex.info/cgi-bin/j-e/FG=r/jap/%b8%ee%bf%c8?TR) is the kanji for goshin.

[P Goldsbury]

The word for self is mizukara 自ら, also read as JI. It is Radical 132 in Nelson. In my experience if I wanted to refer to myself in Japanese, I would add something like 'jibun jishin' to 'watashi' or 'boku' (male speech).

So the terms for self defence given in Kenkyusha's Readers English-Japanese Dictionary all start from this radical and 'self defence' is given as 'jiko bouei':. Combinations of these appear in other terms, such as 'jieitai' (self-defence forces) and 'jieiken', which means the right of self-defence.

It might well be that these combinations were coined during the 19th century, but I would think that JI, being one of the 214 Chinese Radicals, would be much older.

[Gene Williams]

The word for self is mizukara 自ら, also read as JI. It is Radical 132 in Nelson. In my experience if I wanted to refer to myself in Japanese, I would add something like 'jibun jishin' to 'watashi' or 'boku' (male speech).

So the terms for self defence given in Kenkyusha's Readers English-Japanese Dictionary all start from this radical and 'self defence' is given as 'jiko bouei':. Combinations of these appear in other terms, such as 'jieitai' (self-defence forces) and 'jieiken', which means the right of self-defence.

It might well be that these combinations were coined during the 19th century, but I would think that JI, being one of the 214 Chinese Radicals, would be much older.

Thank you very much. I think what my source was, perhaps, trying to convey is that the concept of self-defence was not a part of the samurai language or world view. I suppose every language has some word or phrase for "self-protection," but the idea does seem incongruous with warriors who were loyal to the point of willingly dying for their lord. I do notice that most of the meanings for "mamoru" and its cognates have to do with protecting the lord, the country, the fortress, etc. Anyway, I have found that many times even modern Japanese do not know the old words and forms.

[CEB]

You maybe on to something Gene.

What is the old samurai maxim? If you think of saving your life you will lose it. (something like that)

Patton may have had a similar philosophy. The below link is just for Gene. Some of you may have problem with the language. It gets a little harsh.
http://www.lizmichael.com/patton.htm

I forgot the whole reason for my post..... If you are interested in this subject from a Ryukyu perspective maybe you want to PM Robert. My Sensei is good freinds with Shintaku Sensei who used to be a student of Mr. Oyata and he used to talk a lot about 'Life Protection' so maybe there is an old outlook that is unique to Ryukyu but not Mainland Japan concerning this subject.

[P Goldsbury]

The problem here is to obtain enough of a handle on the issue to decide whether it is researchable further, or it is simply an armchair issue discussed on bulletin boards in the absence or any real evidence.

A large monolingual dictionary like the OED, Morohashi's Dai Kanwa Jitten or the Kokugo Daijiten will give the history of the word in the language and cite the literature where the word is used. Nelson is completely unsuitable here, since it gives no examples and there is no way of going beyond the simple 'equivalents' (self = JI or mizukara etc) to what further 'conceptual' significance the term had in a community of native speakers.

Having a 'concept', as part of one's native language, and and having a 'philosophy', as part of one's system of beliefs or ethics, are quite different. With the 'samurai', especially, it is important to be able to identify such a real community of native speakers and not romantic notions foisted on a mythical community ex post facto by people like the writer of Hagakure.

[Gene Williams]

The problem here is to obtain enough of a handle on the issue to decide whether it is researchable further, or it is simply an armchair issue discussed on bulletin boards in the absence or any real evidence.

A large monolingual dictionary like the OED, Morohashi's Dai Kanwa Jitten or the Kokugo Daijiten will give the history of the word in the language and cite the literature where the word is used. Nelson is completely unsuitable here, since it gives no examples and there is no way of going beyond the simple 'equivalents' (self = JI or mizukara etc) to what further 'conceptual' significance the term had in a community of native speakers.

Having a 'concept', as part of one's native language, and and having a 'philosophy', as part of one's system of beliefs or ethics, are quite different. With the 'samurai', especially, it is important to be able to identify such a real community of native speakers and not romantic notions foisted on a mythical community ex post facto by people like the writer of Hagakure.

True enough. I think we have crossed into the realm of speculation, but it is an interesting, if unanswerable, question.

[P Goldsbury]

I think what my source was, perhaps, trying to convey is that the concept of self-defence was not a part of the samurai language or world view. I suppose every language has some word or phrase for "self-protection," but the idea does seem incongruous with warriors who were loyal to the point of willingly dying for their lord. I do notice that most of the meanings for "mamoru" and its cognates have to do with protecting the lord, the country, the fortress, etc. Anyway, I have found that many times even modern Japanese do not know the old words and forms.

Yes, agreed. There are several interesting issues here.

The danger signal for me in your post was the phrase, "loyal to the point of willingly dying for their lord" and the immediate connection with the supposed absence of a notion of 'self-defence' in the language, possibly because there had to be an absence of the notion of 'self-defence' in people who were willing to die in such circumstances.

The danger exists in supposing that there was a specific sub-community of native speakers who did not possess a specific language concept because of a particular ethical system that they embraced.

In other words, the samurai, who were supposedly 'self-less' to the point of willingly dying for their lord(s) had no concept of 'self-defence', whereas the average peasant farmer, who often had to guard himself and his family/village against the depredations of these same 'self-less' samurai in their military operations to defend and possibly die for their lord, certainly did have such a notion.

For example, would you think that the peasants portrayed in Kurosawa's Seven Samurai had such a concept of self-defence? And what about the 'seven samurai' themselves, who were ronin and no longer had lords to die for?

I think the above scenario does not bear serious examination. However, your source might be right about the absence of the notion of self-defence in traditional Japanese, but for other reasons, having little to do with samurai.

However, for this supposition to be valid, I think you would need to trace the history of the concept in English, also. For example, is there a viable concept of 'self-defence' evident in the vocabulary of Shakespeare's plays? If there is, this would be evidence that the concept was part of the living language that Shakespeare certainly used for his plays.

If he did not, perhaps the English notion of 'self-defence' is parasitic on a much more modern notion of the 'self', which became current in the language in the 17th and 18th centuries, as a result of, e.g., people like Locke having to deal with Descartes.

There is evidence that the Japanese were forced to import lots of new concepts into their language as the result of the Meiji Restoration and the forced opening of Japan to the West. However, these concepts were imported as a result of translation, which is not a transparent art.

Thus my suggestion is that 'self-defence' is actually a modern English concept, based on a certain modern concept of the 'self' as expressed in the English language. The Japanese equivalent might be a direct translation of this modern English concept, or it might go much further back.

This question is speculative, but I think it can be answered to some degree. You would need to read the contemporary literature, and for this enterprise a dictionary like Nelson would be only a start.

Best wishes,

[Gene Williams]

Yes, agreed. There are several interesting issues here.

The danger signal for me in your post was the phrase, "loyal to the point of willingly dying for their lord" and the immediate connection with the supposed absence of a notion of 'self-defence' in the language, possibly because there had to be an absence of the notion of 'self-defence' in people who were willing to die in such circumstances.

The danger exists in supposing that there was a specific sub-community of native speakers who did not possess a specific language concept because of a particular ethical system that they embraced.

In other words, the samurai, who were supposedly 'self-less' to the point of willingly dying for their lord(s) had no concept of 'self-defence', whereas the average peasant farmer, who often had to guard himself and his family/village against the depredations of these same 'self-less' samurai in their military operations to defend and possibly die for their lord, certainly did have such a notion.

For example, would you think that the peasants portrayed in Kurosawa's Seven Samurai had such a concept of self-defence? And what about the 'seven samurai' themselves, who were ronin and no longer had lords to die for?

I think the above scenario does not bear serious examination. However, your source might be right about the absence of the notion of self-defence in traditional Japanese, but for other reasons, having little to do with samurai.

However, for this supposition to be valid, I think you would need to trace the history of the concept in English, also. For example, is there a viable concept of 'self-defence' evident in the vocabulary of Shakespeare's plays? If there is, this would be evidence that the concept was part of the living language that Shakespeare certainly used for his plays.

If he did not, perhaps the English notion of 'self-defence' is parasitic on a much more modern notion of the 'self', which became current in the language in the 17th and 18th centuries, as a result of, e.g., people like Locke having to deal with Descartes.

There is evidence that the Japanese were forced to import lots of new concepts into their language as the result of the Meiji Restoration and the forced opening of Japan to the West. However, these concepts were imported as a result of translation, which is not a transparent art.

Thus my suggestion is that 'self-defence' is actually a modern English concept, based on a certain modern concept of the 'self' as expressed in the English language. The Japanese equivalent might be a direct translation of this modern English concept, or it might go much further back.

This question is speculative, but I think it can be answered to some degree. You would need to read the contemporary literature, and for this enterprise a dictionary like Nelson would be only a start.

Best wishes,

Thank you for that response. I believe your distinction between the samurai "self" concept and that of the peasant one is quite to the point. I had not considered that. I also agree that the notion of "self" that we usually have in mind is indeed a modern notion. It is interesting that you mention the Bard, for it is in his plays that the modern literary concept of self (as in self-awareness, self-examination, etc.) begins to develop. Of course, the 17th century rationalists initiated a deluge of the "Self" culminating, unfortunately, in Existentialism, Nihilism, and the Post Modern desert we now inhabit. Geez, you are forcing the old academic wheels to creak...but, then, you are a professor :D

[TEA]

Peter, thanks for including all of those qualifiers about the supposedly selfless bushi/samurai. I'm sure Karl Friday and Paul Varley would heartily approve. :) I think that historically, bushido (a term which did not exist until fairly well after the Tokugawa had put an end to warfare in Japan) was more notable among Japanese warriors' in its lapse than its observance until it was romanticized by a salaried warrior class that was paid not to fight and had not seen combat in several generations. :bandit:

FWIW, I believe the term "self-defense" in English as a legal concept dates back in English Common Law to the late middle ages. I'd have to do some research, but I'm pretty sure that the concept is discussed in the Magna Carta. Certainly, it was being discussed with regards to the right to keep and bear arms in the 17th and 18th centuries.