Dan Level Kata

[kumite]

This is a question I posed on another forum a year or two ago and never got a definite answer.

Back when I was a blue belt, I competed in a kata competition. I performed Empi kata and took first place. After it was over two different blackbelts came up to and asked me why was I doing a dan level kata? One was Shotokan and one was Shorin Ryu. (If memory serves :D ) In our school, you were taught Empi around the time you got your blue belt My instructors thought I did the kata very well and told me to do it at the tournament and I told them the same. They told me to do the kata, I did the kata. In other schools/styles what are considered Dan level katas?

[Gene Williams]

This is a question I posed on another forum a year or two ago and never got a definite answer.

Back when I was a blue belt, I competed in a kata competition. I performed Empi kata and took first place. After it was over two different blackbelts came up to and asked me why was I doing a dan level kata? One was Shotokan and one was Shorin Ryu. (If memory serves :D ) In our school, you were taught Empi around the time you got your blue belt My instructors thought I did the kata very well and told me to do it at the tournament and I told them the same. They told me to do the kata, I did the kata. In other schools/styles what are considered Dan level katas?

That varies some. In most Shuri based ryu, anything past Pinan/Naihanchi could be considered a "dan" level kata. However, kata like Matsukaze (Wankan), Jutte, Empi (Wansu), Jion, Jiin are taught at brown belt level. I teach Kosokun Dai (Kusanku) at ikkyu to be demonstrated on shodan test, so I have no problem with a brown belt doing Kosokun Dai.
I think the issue is more what a student is ready for at each level. I do not think a gokyu/yonkyu should be doing anything but Pinan kata. Many instructors, for nothing other than tournament reasons, will teach a promising kata student a high kata as a "tournament" kata. I do not believe this is fair to that student or the other students in the class. I have seen green belts do Unshu in tournaments without a friggin' clue what they were doing or how to do it properly, but because they could do it with good stances and some well rehearsed "spirit" the idiot judges would give them high scores. This just reinforces the bad behavior of the sensei.
So, I understand why they asked you the question...they should have been asking your instructor.

[kumite]

Gene, I kinda told them them the same thing. :D "Uh, my instructor is right over there." They didn't go ask him. But Brad,(my instructor) is a huge guy. I was a little upset because they looked really ticked off and were kinda grilling me over it. Both were trying to kinda tower over me like I was supposed to kowtow to them. Granted, I'm only 5'8", and I hate it when a taller guy tries to do that. Especially two. :bandit:

At our school you learn the five Heian/Pinan kata, Naihachi Shodan, then Empi. Bassai, Naihachi Nidan, Kushanku, Seiuchin, Tomari Seisan, Tensho, Naihanchi Sandan, Sanchin. Plus all the weapon katas. We don't have Sho and Dai katas for kushanku and bassai.

[Gene Williams]

Gene, I kinda told them them the same thing. :D "Uh, my instructor is right over there." They didn't go ask him. But Brad,(my instructor) is a huge guy. I was a little upset because they looked really ticked off and were kinda grilling me over it. Both were trying to kinda tower over me like I was supposed to kowtow to them. Granted, I'm only 5'8", and I hate it when a taller guy tries to do that. Especially two. :bandit:

At our school you learn the five Heian/Pinan kata, Naihachi Shodan, then Empi. Bassai, Naihachi Nidan, Kushanku, Seiuchin, Tomari Seisan, Tensho, Naihanchi Sandan, Sanchin. Plus all the weapon katas. We don't have Sho and Dai katas for kushanku and bassai.

Looks like a good, normal kata list to me. I just don't think you should teach kata like Empi to blue belts, that's all. I would not have made as big a deal about it as they did at the tournament. I probably would have given a well done Pinan kata a higher score, though.

[onnie]

Kata order has also come up in my system at tournaments. Seisan is the first kata taught. It is studied for the first year and testing through 7th kyu. Wansu is our third kata. The order is Seisan, Anaku, Wansu, Passi Dai, Pinan 1-5, Naihanchi Sho, Passi Sho, Chinto, Gojushiho and Kusanku. Also kobudo katas.

Brandon

[swdw]

You were lucky. In some tournaments the kata are fixed for certain belt levels and regardless of your schools sequence you may not have been allowed to do empi.

Their being ticked is a typical response of those who feel being a black belt makes them superior somehow. The idea of someone at a lower rank knowing what they think "belongs to them" because of their rank upsets them because it makes them lose a bit of the "superiority". In their styles Empi IS a dan ranked kata, and you doing empi was taken as an assault on their sense of propriety.

Few schools teach what being humble really means, but teach a false humility that is in reality another form of pride. The response of the black belts towards you shows that the belt rank in their school is not only a knowledge rank, but in their minds, also a social rank. I've seen this WAY too many times :(

In reality, had they held the right attitude, they would have asked at what level empi was taught in your school, then either complimented you on performing a difficult kata at your level, or at the least, encourage you to keep working on it.

So- don't let what they think affect you. Keep training, say a prayer for them and enjoy what you do.

[Gene Williams]

Brandon,
That is true. Some ryu have less kata and, therefore, may teach a different order or have kata that are generally a little ahead of where other ryu students may be at a given rank. In those ryu, you tend to stay with one kata a little longer. Tournament judges from traditional ryu should know that and adjust accordingly. I think it is interesting to teach Seisan first. That jumps a student right into some serious stance and hara work. :)

[Gene Williams]

You were lucky. In some tournaments the kata are fixed for certain belt levels and regardless of your schools sequence you may not have been allowed to do empi.

Their being ticked is a typical response of those who feel being a black belt makes them superior somehow. The idea of someone at a lower rank knowing what they think "belongs to them" because of their rank upsets them because it makes them lose a bit of the "superiority".

Few schools teach what being humble really means, but teach a false humility that is in reality another form of pride. The response of the black belts towards you shows that the belt rank in their school is not only a knowledge rank, but in their minds, also a social rank. I've seen this WAY too many times :(

So- don't let what they think affect you. Keep training, say a prayer for them and enjoy what you do.


Sam, I think you are a little off base here. There may be some black belts who feel as you say, but they have a pretty shallow view of karate and kata. I have never been in a traditional dojo with a senior instructor where kata were "social status symbols." I think the teaching of advanced kata to juniors is poor instruction and another form of pride...just so the student can have an edge in a tournament competition. And, since you mention it, I would have no problem with the level of kata being "fixed" at tournaments. It would eliminate alot of nonsense.
Bring me the instructor who feels superior because of the advanced kata he knows and we'll have a session on Pinan kata that will diminish his superiority complex. :D :bow:

[Eliz]

In some tournaments the kata are fixed for certain belt levels and regardless of your schools sequence you may not have been allowed to do empi.


Most of our tournaments are run this way. I believe the primary reason for this is a few forms (Gae-Bek and Chong-Moo) are fantastic competitive forms. If rules were not set that certain belts competed certain forms, you could easily have an entire tournament consisting only of those two forms.

[Ron Davis]

Here is a link to the rules governed by the AAU. if you scroll to the bottom you will see lists of kata aproved for each major style of traditional karate.

http://www.aaukarate.org/handbooks/karate/IV_kata.pdf

I like these rules hopefully more tournaments will start to enforce rules like this.

[Gene Williams]

Here is a link to the rules governed by the AAU. if you scroll to the bottom you will see lists of kata aproved for each major style of traditional karate.

http://www.aaukarate.org/handbooks/karate/IV_kata.pdf

I like these rules hopefully more tournaments will start to enforce rules like this.

It would sure make for a lot less BS in kata competition. We had a couple of tournaments just for the Kai where Sensei had every dan in the house do Pinan Shodan in kata competition. Boy, that'll separate the sheep from the goats :D Other times, he and the other judges would call a kata when the candidate walked up there. Now, I LIKE THAT! :D

[kumite]

It would sure make for a lot less BS in kata competition. We had a couple of tournaments just for the Kai where Sensei had every dan in the house do Pinan Shodan in kata competition. Boy, that'll separate the sheep from the goats :D Other times, he and the other judges would call a kata when the candidate walked up there. Now, I LIKE THAT! :D

I wouldn't mind that either. It would be fun to see if every dan remembered Heian/Pinan Shodan. :D

[onnie]

Our order of kata is world wide. Some dojo's start with a "extra" kata for beginners but Seisan is the first kata even in Okinawa. By the time you reach dan ranking you will have worked Seisan many times and it should reflect it. To me kata is greatly over looked as is the Makiwara as I have posted before. I would rather perform a handful of katas very well than two or three handfuls poorly. Train hard and often.

Brandon

[kumite]

Something I hadn't thought about before, but Elizabeth's post reminded me of it. That tournament was open to anyone. While it was 99% karate since it was being hosted by a karate organization, there are always a few TKD competitors there. What if I had done a TKD form?? They wouldn't have known what "level" it was.

[Gene Williams]

Well, if someone opens their tournament to TKD or CMA competitors, they should invite competent TKD and CMA judges. :)

[Ron Davis]

Something I hadn't thought about before, but Elizabeth's post reminded me of it. That tournament was open to anyone. While it was 99% karate since it was being hosted by a karate organization, there are always a few TKD competitors there. What if I had done a TKD form?? They wouldn't have known what "level" it was.

You run into this in the open style tournaments and it is always a mess. You see people judging these things who have no idea of what a good stance is or proper kime all they wnat to see is how fast and how many tricks they can put into a 2 minute tiem frame. In these tournaments you will rarely see a traditional kata winning it is usally the person doing the flash dance with flips and tricks. I do enjoy going ot the traditional tournaments which is usally restricted to Okinawan and Japanese styles.

[Gene Williams]

I used to refuse to judge those open tournaments if asked. I haven't a clue about how to judge CMA kata or TKD hyungs. It isn't fair for them to judge Japanese/Okinawan kata, either, especially at dan level.

[Shorin-Ryu Sensei]

Just my 3 cents .... I have removed the "basic" kata from my curriculum, i.e., Fukyugata and Pinan, so I have no problem seeing a beginner doing a "dan" kata such as Ananku considering that it's the first kata learned.

Ed Cooke

[TonyU]

May I ask why you removed the Pinan kata?

[Gene Williams]

Just my 3 cents .... I have removed the "basic" kata from my curriculum, i.e., Fukyugata and Pinan, so I have no problem seeing a beginner doing a "dan" kata such as Ananku considering that it's the first kata learned.

Ed Cooke

WOW!! I am truly in awe of someone good enough and knowledgeable enough to just do away with Fukyugata and Pinan. Yeah, and still call himself Shorin ryu. Man, I wish I was good enough to quit doing Pinan and Fukyugata...oh, well, maybe in another 31 years :(

[Cameron]

Just my 3 cents ....


I believe the expression is 'just my two cents'.

[Gene Williams]

No, anyone as good as this guy gets to say "three cents."

[Cliff Hargrave]

Just my 3 cents .... I have removed the "basic" kata from my curriculum, i.e., Fukyugata and Pinan, so I have no problem seeing a beginner doing a "dan" kata such as Ananku considering that it's the first kata learned.

Ed Cooke

Don't you already have an account here?

User name: Shorin-RyuSensei

You are only allowed one per the rules, pick which one you want to keep "sensei."

[Gene Williams]

Man, this guy is a piece of work...2 accounts, no Pinan, no Fukyugata, 3 cents... :D

[Eliz]

Something I hadn't thought about before, but Elizabeth's post reminded me of it. That tournament was open to anyone. While it was 99% karate since it was being hosted by a karate organization, there are always a few TKD competitors there. What if I had done a TKD form?? They wouldn't have known what "level" it was.

AAU [TKD division] and USAT allow WTF and ITF TKD forms, MDK and TSD - all Korean MA's. Those are the two main organizations I work for. I have to recertify each year - it is a bear of an exam. I browsed the AAU Karate link posted in this thread, and it is very similar to the rules of judging for AAU TKD. There really are quite a few great organizations out there that strive to keep competitors on even ground.

I have also worked the "open" circuit but the majority of those tournaments were Naska sanctioned events. Consequently, the majority of the competitors I graded were KMA's. The only non KMA competitors I have graded or judged were CMA's - and I was on an all CMA's panel. Low and high score being eliminated. Frankly, I thought the competitors were incredible and scored them above the rest. They really were extraordinary.

I like Gene's experience of the judges telling you what form they want to see. I could easily see how that could turn biased....but I still like it. I also agree the "creative" or musical divisions on the open circuit aren't my thing. I tend more towards the traditional divisions.

[rgoad]

I have to agree with Gene on this. The 'lower' kata are a 'labratory' to teach and demonstrate certain concepts and techniques, and I don't mean a kick or punch, for the beginner. Open tournaments are often demonstrations of athletic ability rather than martial capability. The person running the form may be athletically gifted but is not demonstrated a *developed* martial skill. If the person has developed that skill, then that person should be promoted and compete at that level. I'm not even talking about the XMA flamming hoop jumpers.

The same controversy exists with Wushu and Kung Fu. I viewed the American Wushu team working out once and their physical skill was incredible, but only maybe one or two looked as if they could have translated that to a martial skill.

Here's a thought: I once saw a Tai Chi competition where a fellow who ran a very basic set placed quite high because he could show, clearly, the principles of Tai Chi when doing so. Maybe you could run the 'lower' kata with better skill and presentation. Just a thought...

[Gene Williams]

I have to agree with Gene on this. The 'lower' kata are a 'labratory' to teach and demonstrate certain concepts and techniques, and I don't mean a kick or punch, for the beginner. Open tournaments are often demonstrations of athletic ability rather than martial capability. The person running the form may be athletically gifted but is not demonstrated a *developed* martial skill. If the person has developed that skill, then that person should be promoted and compete at that level. I'm not even talking about the XMA flamming hoop jumpers.

The same controversy exists with Wushu and Kung Fu. I viewed the American Wushu team working out once and their physical skill was incredible, but only maybe one or two looked as if they could have translated that to a martial skill.

Here's a thought: I once saw a Tai Chi competition where a fellow who ran a very basic set placed quite high because he could show, clearly, the principles of Tai Chi when doing so. Maybe you could run the 'lower' kata with better skill and presentation. Just a thought...



I agree with what you are getting at, but I don't like the laboratory idea. I don't think the Pinan and other "lower" kata should ever be viewed as in a different category from other kata. I probably do the Pinan as much or more than my "advanced" kata. By the way, I don't even like the distinction between "advanced" and "basic" or "lower" kata. I think there are just kata.
If someone stays in this long enough and trains as they should, kata like Pinan begin to reveal more and more. Because they are on a comparatively simple framework with many very fundamental techniques and sequences, seniors practicing them will discover that the kata draw a lot of power and focus from the practitioner...it becomes involuntary. Then, when you go back to the more complex or specialized or whatever kata, what you found in Pinan should better inform your practice of the others. I have said before that if I had to choose between Kosokun Dai (Kusanku) and the Pinan, I'd keep the Pinan. Having trouble with "advanced" kata?" Go do Pinan kata a few times each. Pay attention to why they seem so effortless or why you don't seem to have the same problems in them as in some of the "higher" kata. If your oi zuki or pivot seems fine in Pinan but feels lousy in Jion, why is that? Having trouble with cat stance in Sochin...well, why don't you have trouble with it in Pinan Shodan? What are you doing differently?
Most people howl when they hear this, but I believe that the Pinan kata done properly and well with the ability to apply the bunkai naturally and with ease against resisting opponents IS shodan level karate. So, Richard, yes, you are right on in your last paragraph. :bow:

[CEB]

FWIW, We have different classification for our kata:

Fukyu
Kihon
Heishu
Kaishu

In my humble opinion the classifications are not about what is basic and what is advance but more centered on what are the kata developmental principles or…… What exactly it is we hope to attain from a particular type of kata. That and along with the fact that we prided ourselves on being the most structure Ryu with the most organized pedadogy as opposed to Shorin Ryu which was always taught haphazardly :laugh: (that is a joke)

Others will disagree with me and say Kaishu are advanced Kihon are basic but that is just me.

[Gene Williams]

Are you saying that Goju is anal retentive? :D

[rgoad]

Good point about higher and lower kata. I was referring to the level of the person when they are typically taught. The idea of carrying the lessons forward should be a no-brainer. but as we all know not everyone does it.

I tend to emphasize stance. The Pinan and other kata will often have a new stance in them. The transistion from one stance to another is vital to the rest of the technique, so that is one thing you are learning in a given form. The laboratory concept (spelling corrected this time) is to highlight the lessons, bunkai or whatever in each kata. I don't mean to say the kata are different categories. They are unique in their lessons, however, and the creators of the forms even numberd them and taught them in a given sequence. You can see this was revised occasionally as Wado ryu teaches Pinan Nidan before Pinan Shodan as they feel that lesson should come first in their style. Other styles, also, are fairly pedantic about the sequence forms are taught.

[CEB]

.... I don't mean to say the kata are different categories. ......
You can if you want though. That would be a true statement.

[Gene Williams]

Good point about higher and lower kata. I was referring to the level of the person when they are typically taught. The idea of carrying the lessons forward should be a no-brainer. but as we all know not everyone does it.

I tend to emphasize stance. The Pinan and other kata will often have a new stance in them. The transistion from one stance to another is vital to the rest of the technique, so that is one thing you are learning in a given form. The laboratory concept (spelling corrected this time) is to highlight the lessons, bunkai or whatever in each kata. I don't mean to say the kata are different categories. They are unique in their lessons, however, and the creators of the forms even numberd them and taught them in a given sequence. You can see this was revised occasionally as Wado ryu teaches Pinan Nidan before Pinan Shodan as they feel that lesson should come first in their style. Other styles, also, are fairly pedantic about the sequence forms are taught.

Funakoshi changed the order in Pinan. Okinawans don't care for him doing that. :mad: Some ryu are indeed more pedantic in ordering the kata. Most of the Shuri/Tomari based ryu go something like: Fukyugata (Gakki Sai, Tenno Chino...usually a couple), Pinan, Naihanchi Shodan...from here it is a bit arbitrary but kata like Jutte, Jion, Wansu, Matsukaze, Sanchin, Rohai and Bassai Dai usually fill the brown belt ranks. Everything else is considered higher dan level.

[rgoad]

You can if you want though. That would be a true statement.
True. I was just not wanting to bring that into the discussion at this point.

[Gene Williams]

Goad told me to do this. This is my daughter, Mary Beth, and her husband, Lee, with my new grand daughter, Elizabeth Kate. That is my son, Jeff, amnd his wife, Kristina, with our grandson,Christopher, 13 mos. So, there. :)

[TonyU]

Thank God, they don't look like you.

[Gene Williams]

............... That's better, I figured out how to use Picture It!...Tony, :p

[Gene Williams]

Here is a pic of me, Soke Harada, and Robert Burgermeister, Kaicho at a seminar in Dec. Alright, that's the last one. :D

[TonyU]

Good Gawed Man! You really do look cantankerous. :D

[CEB]

Nice looking family.

The little ones do not stay little very long. :(

[rgoad]

Pretty baby. Nice looking family. Must make you happy. They are so cute when they are little. Tiny fingers and toes.

Based on the way Jeff looks, you must have been good looking at one point in the past.

Cool pic of Soke Harada. History stuff is fun. He looks like he would be 'fun' to train with.

[Gene Williams]

Pretty baby. Nice looking family. Must make you happy. They are so cute when they are little. Tiny fingers and toes.

Based on the way Jeff looks, you must have been good looking at one point in the past.

Cool pic of Soke Harada. History stuff is fun. He looks like he would be 'fun' to train with.

Harada is fun to be around. He doesn't cut up like Soke Kuniba, but he likes to talk and tell stories. We usually hire a translator, but he speaks some English. He has an impressive history, Mabuni, Kosei Kuniba, dojo mate of Shogo Kuniba...lots of jujutsu.

[2groggy]

FWIW, We have different classification for our kata:

Fukyu
Kihon
Heishu
Kaishu

In my humble opinion the classifications are not about what is basic and what is advance but more centered on what are the kata developmental principles or…… What exactly it is we hope to attain from a particular type of kata. That and along with the fact that we prided ourselves on being the most structure Ryu with the most organized pedadogy as opposed to Shorin Ryu which was always taught haphazardly :laugh: (that is a joke)

Others will disagree with me and say Kaishu are advanced Kihon are basic but that is just me.
Ed,

I'm not familiar with the terminology. Can you explain the classifications in English. (Please & thanks)

[Eliz]

.... with my new grand daughter, Elizabeth...

Great name!!! :laugh:

Beautiful family, Gene, and much happiness to you all. *Especially little Elizabeth* :rolleyes:

[Gene Williams]

Great name!!! :laugh:

Beautiful family, Gene, and much happiness to you all. *Especially little Elizabeth* :rolleyes:

Thanks, Elizabeth. :)

[Gene Williams]

Ed,

I'm not familiar with the terminology. Can you explain the classifications in English. (Please & thanks)


Well, since Ed is still in bed and hasn't responded (I'm sure he will elaborate):

Fukyu are a "first group" of techniques or a widely practiced set/kata.

Kihon are fundamentals or foundation techniques/kata.

Heishu kata are those done with closed hands (mostly) which have a strong, tight feel. Think straight forward power.

Kaishu are "open hand" kata which have a lighter, snappy, softer feel.

There are very different understandings with each of the last two groups, especially. Those in Shito ryu will vary from those in Goju, so Ed can take it from here.

[CEB]

Thanks, that is pretty much it.

The only thing that is somewhat fuzzy to me is in regard to Kihon and Heishu. Tensho is classified by all as Heishu. Most also classify Sanchin as Heishu. But Chinen Sensei taught us Sanchin is the Kihon kata of the system, which it is. So can a form be both Kihon and a Heishu form? Or are these intended to to mutually exclusive classifications? .....

Here is a list of kata and how we classify them. Different Goju people may do it differently

FuKyu – Geka Sai Dai Ichi, Geka Sai Dai Ni, and two additional forms done only by our particular faction of Goju Ryu. These are new kata. I am told in the 'old days' our teachers taught students who already had some fighting skill. In the 30s Fukyu kata were developed to basically teach people who did know anything at all. I guess this is why some teachers think it is OK to drop these from their practice after a while.

Kihon – Sanchin.

Heishu – Tensho and Sanchin also. Heishu kata are developmental forms the fruits of which manifest themselves in the Kaishu kata. If your Sanchin is no good you Sesan or Suparunpei will never be any good. Chinen Sensei tells us that Sanchin and Tensho have NO bunkai. I think this is because if people start thinking bunkai they start thinking about their hands and not their bodies and their development goes to pot, but this is just me. I am probably wrong everything now has bunkai even when you scratch an itch on you butt. :laugh:

Kaishu – Saifa, Seiunchin, Shisochin, Seipai, Sanseiru, Sesan, Kururunfa, and Suparunpei. The fighting syllabus of the Ryu. Each one tends to have its own basic theme and set of fighting principles. These are waza learned mostly through yakusoku and kakie kumite but then again this is just me talking here. I am not a big proponent of learn how to fight through an epiphany that occurs while in the dance. It happens from time to time but isn’t a particularly efficient means of learning in my opinion. But again these are just my opinions. My teachers are more about doing and less about talking. It is usually the Americans who seem more inclined to theorize about what means what.

Hope this helped. I am no expert just a farm boy from Illinois.

[Gene Williams]

Thanks, that is pretty much it.

The only thing that is somewhat fuzzy to me is in regard to Kihon and Heishu. Tensho is classified by all as Heishu. Most also classify Sanchin as Heishu. But Chinen Sensei taught us Sanchin is the Kihon kata of the system, which it is. So can a form be both Kihon and a Heishu form? Or are these intended to to mutually exclusive classifications? .....

Here is a list of kata and how we classify them. Different Goju people may do it differently

FuKyu – Geka Sai Dai Ichi, Geka Sai Dai Ni, and two additional forms done only by our particular faction of Goju Ryu. These are new kata. I am told in the 'old days' our teachers taught students who already had some fighting skill. In the 30s Fukyu kata were developed to basically teach people who did know anything at all. I guess this is why some teachers think it is OK to drop these from their practice after a while.

Kihon – Sanchin.

Heishu – Tensho and Sanchin also. Heishu kata are developmental forms the fruits of which manifest themselves in the Kaishu kata. If your Sanchin is no good you Sesan or Suparunpei will never be any good. Chinen Sensei tells us that Sanchin and Tensho have NO bunkai. I think this is because if people start thinking bunkai they start thinking about their hands and not their bodies and their development goes to pot, but this is just me. I am probably wrong everything now has bunkai even when you scratch an itch on you butt. :laugh:

Kaishu – Saifa, Seiunchin, Shisochin, Seipai, Sanseiru, Sesan, Kururunfa, and Suparunpei. The fighting syllabus of the Ryu. Each one tends to have its own basic theme and set of fighting principles. These are waza learned mostly through yakusoku and kakie kumite but then again this is just me talking here. I am not a big proponent of learn how to fight through an epiphany that occurs while in the dance. It happens from time to time but isn’t a particularly efficient means of learning in my opinion. But again these are just my opinions. My teachers are more about doing and less about talking. It is usually the Americans who seem more inclined to theorize about what means what.

Hope this helped. I am no expert just a farm boy from Illinois.

That is very good, Ed, so much so that I printed it off. I'll give the Shito ryu take later. I have to go do some work. Thanks.

[2groggy]

Gene, Ed, thanks for the info.

Now what about Tensho?
I've seen it taught at about 3rd Kyu. But I've also heard that some consider it to be the most advanced GoJu kata and won't teach it until 3rd or 4th Dan.
I've seen it interpreted in some dojos like "tai-chi with straight arms while in sanchin dachi", and in others using the intensity of Sanchin kata. Yes, I am exagerating a bit in both cases, but the differences are like night and day.

[Prince Loeffler]

I have removed the "basic" kata from my curriculum, i.e., Fukyugata and Pinan, so I have no problem seeing a beginner doing a "dan" kata such as Ananku considering that it's the first kata learned.

Ed Cooke

May I ask why ?

[Gene Williams]

Thanks, that is pretty much it.

The only thing that is somewhat fuzzy to me is in regard to Kihon and Heishu. Tensho is classified by all as Heishu. Most also classify Sanchin as Heishu. But Chinen Sensei taught us Sanchin is the Kihon kata of the system, which it is. So can a form be both Kihon and a Heishu form? Or are these intended to to mutually exclusive classifications? .....

Here is a list of kata and how we classify them. Different Goju people may do it differently

FuKyu – Geka Sai Dai Ichi, Geka Sai Dai Ni, and two additional forms done only by our particular faction of Goju Ryu. These are new kata. I am told in the 'old days' our teachers taught students who already had some fighting skill. In the 30s Fukyu kata were developed to basically teach people who did know anything at all. I guess this is why some teachers think it is OK to drop these from their practice after a while.

Kihon – Sanchin.

Heishu – Tensho and Sanchin also. Heishu kata are developmental forms the fruits of which manifest themselves in the Kaishu kata. If your Sanchin is no good you Sesan or Suparunpei will never be any good. Chinen Sensei tells us that Sanchin and Tensho have NO bunkai. I think this is because if people start thinking bunkai they start thinking about their hands and not their bodies and their development goes to pot, but this is just me. I am probably wrong everything now has bunkai even when you scratch an itch on you butt. :laugh:

Kaishu – Saifa, Seiunchin, Shisochin, Seipai, Sanseiru, Sesan, Kururunfa, and Suparunpei. The fighting syllabus of the Ryu. Each one tends to have its own basic theme and set of fighting principles. These are waza learned mostly through yakusoku and kakie kumite but then again this is just me talking here. I am not a big proponent of learn how to fight through an epiphany that occurs while in the dance. It happens from time to time but isn’t a particularly efficient means of learning in my opinion. But again these are just my opinions. My teachers are more about doing and less about talking. It is usually the Americans who seem more inclined to theorize about what means what.

Hope this helped. I am no expert just a farm boy from Illinois.



Our Fukyu are Tenno and Chino, which were made by Miyagi and Nagamine in 1940. They can be found in Nagamine's book, "The Essence of Okinawan Karate Do." These are similar to what Goju does. I personally would never drop them from the syllabus because I think every kata teaches you something at every level of skill.

Kihon, for us, are more a set of fundamental drills. I think most of us consider Tenno and Chino as Kihon and Fukyu. I have used the JKA Taikyoku kata as kihon in my class. Those are damned good kata to drill beginners with.

Heishu: Pinan, Sanchin, Bassai Dai and Sho, Jion, Jutte, Matsukaze, Kosokun (2), Chinto

Kaishu: all of the ones Ed listed above (Shito ryu does both Shuri/Tomari and Naha kata), plus Hakutsuru.
There are several kata that are difficult to classify because they have elements of both heishu and kaishu: Gojushiho, Rohai, and, I think, Seisan.

I agree that some kata, like Sanchin and Tensho, have very little, if any, bunkai. One does not have to search for an application for every little move.

PS..Ed, where did you pick up phrases like, "...the epiphany of the dance..." :D They don't say that on Illinois farms. :laugh:

[CEB]

Gene, Ed, thanks for the info.

Now what about Tensho?
I've seen it taught at about 3rd Kyu. But I've also heard that some consider it to be the most advanced GoJu kata and won't teach it until 3rd or 4th Dan.
I've seen it interpreted in some dojos like "tai-chi with straight arms while in sanchin dachi", and in others using the intensity of Sanchin kata. Yes, I am exagerating a bit in both cases, but the differences are like night and day.
As far Tensho and the way it is performed you are correct in your observations. Which way is right? Which is way is wrong? …..Are they all right?…… Who knows. I do it both way. The thing about the fast way is the hand doesn’t flop around like a dead fish. There are mechanically correct ways of doing it etc….. There can several right ways but there are also wrong ways. Heck I don’t how to describe what I want to say into words. So I will just say some do it fast some do it slow.

For what it is worth we do Sanchin 3 different ways, one of which is fast. We also do Sanchin with no particular set pattern. We just go the length of the room then Sensei calls mawatte then we turn around and go the other way. Unfortunately my teacher taught us in a YMCA gymnasium. The room was too big.

One thing to remember is Goju Ryu was Miyagi Chojun’s life work. He taught things different at different points in his life and sometimes things got handed down differently based on when they were learned. The karate off the Higa Seiko lines are interesting. I think the reason is because Higa took a job on Saipan Island in 1937 and after the war he never spent a whole lot of time training under Miyagi. In some ways I see more in common with these lines and old goju kai because I always thought the core of old Goju Kai was pre war Goju. I see this especially when I compare old Goju Kai Sanseiru with Kodokan Sanseiru compared with JundoKan Sanseiru.

I teach kata differently to different people. Yep that is right. Kaishu kata I will teach incrementally. You start of with a base strip down model and then you add the after market add-ons. This is especially true in Sanseiru and Seisan. It is hard to teach everything at once so I start with the embusen and the basic techniques. Then we add moves later. That is the way I was taught.

As far as when you teach certain kata. As an organization we require Tensho at ShoDan but my dojo does it for green belt. I teach Saifa and Seiunchin later than my fellow brothers and sisters but at ShoDan we are all sync as far as test requirements. Chinen Sensei has Tensho as his ShoDan kata but he teaches it as soon as the students can pick it up.

One thing to note is when someone says X kata is sometimes taught at 3rd Dan or at 4th Dan etc….. Does one mean the kata is taught at that point or that this is when the kata is simply required for the formal exam process? I teach Sanchin at white belt. I teach Tensho at 7th-6th Kyu or so. I require students to know Sanchin on their 5th kyu dojo gradings and Tensho on their 4th Kyu dojo gradings. I don’t require any Kaishu forms until 3rd Kyu (Saifa) but my 5th kyu students can usually do the pattern. Our organization has kata requirements all the way to 7th Dan. But I will not allow anyone to grade for 4th Dan who does not know all the kata from the Ryu. I personally consider 4th Dan to be a teachers grade. Technically it isn’t we have a separate teaching license system not connected to Dan-i grading system but I personally feel anyone 4th Dan or higher should know all the forms. I am not going to be around forever. I don’t want to leave behind a YonDan that does not know the kata of the Ryu. If we wait for someone to become 6th Dan to learn Suparunpei they will be too damn old to do the jump kick. If I was Shito Ryu or Shotokan etc…. and had 20+ kata in the syllabus maybe I would see things really different. Some people use the rank grading system to ration out the syllabus. I don’t. I think after ShoDan everyone should start learning all the forms they can. I also do not follow any particular set order of how the kata are taught past Seiunchin. For instance I had a student recently graded for SanDan he needed to know Sanseiru but he had his leg cutoff and reattached in a motorcycle wreck and Sanseiru is not a good kata for him. I can’t help thinking his left leg is going to twist off when he runs Sanseiru. So we worked the others more. So we needed a crash course in Sanseiru before he graded. He knew the others. The organizational kata requirements to me are more of a general guideline. I think they tend to be conservative and by the time you reach 3rd or 4th Dan you should be able to at least mimic all the forms, But that is just me.

[gojumaster]

Ed,

I'm totally with you on this...I believe if you might have your own school by 3rd Dan, then you should have the whole curriculum to at least work on...

Russ


But I will not allow anyone to grade for 4th Dan who does not know all the kata from the Ryu. I personally consider 4th Dan to be a teachers grade. Technically it isn’t we have a separate teaching license system not connected to Dan-i grading system but I personally feel anyone 4th Dan or higher should know all the forms. I am not going to be around forever. I don’t want to leave behind a YonDan that does not know the kata of the Ryu. If we wait for someone to become 6th Dan to learn Suparunpei they will be too damn old to do the jump kick. If I was Shito Ryu or Shotokan etc…. and had 20+ kata in the syllabus maybe I would see things really different. Some people use the rank grading system to ration out the syllabus. I don’t. I think after ShoDan everyone should start learning all the forms they can. I also do not follow any particular set order of how the kata are taught past Seiunchin. For instance I had a student recently graded for SanDan he needed to know Sanseiru but he had his leg cutoff and reattached in a motorcycle wreck and Sanseiru is not a good kata for him. I can’t help thinking his left leg is going to twist off when he runs Sanseiru. So we worked the others more. So we needed a crash course in Sanseiru before he graded. He knew the others. The organizational kata requirements to me are more of a general guideline. I think they tend to be conservative and by the time you reach 3rd or 4th Dan you should be able to at least mimic all the forms, But that is just me.

[shoshinkan]

a great Sensei said to me once - there are no basic or advance kata, just ones that come before others.................

[Gene Williams]

True enough :)

[kumite]

At our school, you learn the entire kata syllabus before you test for black. Even if you pass, you still don't get Shodan. You go through another year of probation before you get your certificate. This is why I wondered what made Empi a Dan kata to those guys. We also have a basic version of the all our katas and then more advanced versions. To me, would not kata have more advanced versions that should be taught at dan level? Learn the basic versions. Then after you earn Dan and are ready to really begin learning, get the more advanced? Most schools I've seen, their Dan ranks only do a basic kata whether it's Heian/Pinan Shodan or Seiuchin. The techniques, footowork, timing, all basic. Does it have more force? Yes. Is their individual techniques better than a kyu rank. Of course. But the only difference is the skill level of the practioner, not the kata itself.

[Gene Williams]

In traditional ryu, there are no "basic" and "advanced" versions of the same kata. That sounds like home cooking to me.

[kumite]

by basic, I mean your general block,step, punch, kia, kata. By advanced, advanced timing, footwork, breathing, angle of attack. Does this explain what I meant a little better?

[Gene Williams]

No, because you said basic and advanced versions of the same kata. Anyway, timing, breathing, footwork, angles are all part of the most basic kata, and block, punch, kick are all part of "advanced" kata. It is kind of an artificial distinction. PS Seiuchin is not a "basic" kata.

[Sochin]

Perhaps you mean that Dai is more advanced than Sho versions...not that there are two Dai versions, one basic and one advanced.

Dai is advanced in complexity over sho but there is only one verison in complexity of each kata, like Gene said.

Actually , some dai versions seem simpler than the sho, for some reason.

[kumite]

No, because you said basic and advanced versions of the same kata. Anyway, timing, breathing, footwork, angles are all part of the most basic kata, and block, punch, kick are all part of "advanced" kata. It is kind of an artificial distinction. PS Seiuchin is not a "basic" kata.

Yes, all of that is in every kata. But as a Dan rank, should not your execution of a technqiue in a kata be more advanced than the kyu rank you teach?

[Gene Williams]

Yes, all of that is in every kata. But as a Dan rank, should not your execution of a technqiue in a kata be more advanced than the kyu rank you teach?


Certainly. That is why I insist that seniors never quit doing basic kata. At their level of ability, they will see and feel new things in old kata. :bow:

[kohai]

harking back to the initial post.... and to comments about 'fixed' kata in tournaments.... i am not much of a tournament competitor, so pardon the ignorance.. in the few tournaments i have competed in - mostly shotokan - for both kyu grade competitors and dan grade competitors, there was a set of 'qualifying' kata, one of which was pulled at random from a box when the competitor stepped up. this kind of ensured that there was some consistency to their performance (as opposed to one much-rehearsed 'fancy competition' kata). past the qualifiers, dan grades could perform any kata they saw fit to, though kyu-grade competitors were strongly encouraged to perform kata taught to their grade. as mentioned early in this thread, most times better executed, more 'basic' forms scored better than competitors aiming at more points simply because of a more complex kata. this in fact helped to bolster the attitude of concentrating on basic kata, and not exchewing them for the showier techniques in more complex kata - at least for me. i was under the impression most tournaments - especially those organised within particular ryu - were conducted this way.....or is that a misconception?
as far as gene's last comment goes, my first sensei had me perform heian shodan repeatedly all through my training sessions for one year before he let me learn anything else... he said if i understood the most basic things properly and intimately, i would learn the meaning of everything to follow much better. i can't say i'm in any position to judge the truth of that, but i did it, and kept it in mind during everything else i learned, both in and out of training...
i guess my thoughts are, although i wouldn't be too riled at a relative newcomer doing a complex kata, it seems like a bit of a waste - jumping to shallow complexity for the sake of a competition and missing out on all the learning that could have come before. - that's just my two cents though.
:bow:

[rgoad]

The difference in the way an advanced person executes a kata and a beginner is the same when a young student reads poetry in public and when a trained actor reads it. Meanings can become more clear and sublty adds to the experience. The Thought forms first and the words merely guide throught it. Kata, while not a story per se, is a series of thoughts that are expressed by the person performing it. The more developed the thoughts the more of the person is involved, the more the person is prepared for the next thought, the next move, after this one is complete.

[Sochin]

Certainly. That is why I insist that seniors never quit doing basic kata. At their level of ability, they will see and feel new things in old kata. :bow:

Yes, indeed,

and which they will miss if they quit as a shodan, thinking they have it all.

[kumite]

harking back to the initial post.... and to comments about 'fixed' kata in tournaments.... i am not much of a tournament competitor, so pardon the ignorance.. in the few tournaments i have competed in - mostly shotokan - for both kyu grade competitors and dan grade competitors, there was a set of 'qualifying' kata, one of which was pulled at random from a box when the competitor stepped up. this kind of ensured that there was some consistency to their performance (as opposed to one much-rehearsed 'fancy competition' kata). past the qualifiers, dan grades could perform any kata they saw fit to, though kyu-grade competitors were strongly encouraged to perform kata taught to their grade. as mentioned early in this thread, most times better executed, more 'basic' forms scored better than competitors aiming at more points simply because of a more complex kata. this in fact helped to bolster the attitude of concentrating on basic kata, and not exchewing them for the showier techniques in more complex kata - at least for me. i was under the impression most tournaments - especially those organised within particular ryu - were conducted this way.....or is that a misconception?


If the tournament is a tournament done within a specific organization with the same kata taught at the same level, there should be no problem with this. But at an open tournament, it would be very difficult to do.

[kumite]

Certainly. That is why I insist that seniors never quit doing basic kata. At their level of ability, they will see and feel new things in old kata. :bow:

ok, I finally understand where you're coming from. Discussing karate over the internet is like trying to walk across a mud bog. You will get there, but it can take a while. :D

[Eliz]

The difference in the way an advanced person executes a kata and a beginner is the same when a young student reads poetry in public and when a trained actor reads it. Meanings can become more clear and sublty adds to the experience. The Thought forms first and the words merely guide throught it. Kata, while not a story per se, is a series of thoughts that are expressed by the person performing it. The more developed the thoughts the more of the person is involved, the more the person is prepared for the next thought, the next move, after this one is complete.

Great analogy! :)

[Gene Williams]

The difference in the way an advanced person executes a kata and a beginner is the same when a young student reads poetry in public and when a trained actor reads it. Meanings can become more clear and sublty adds to the experience. The Thought forms first and the words merely guide throught it. Kata, while not a story per se, is a series of thoughts that are expressed by the person performing it. The more developed the thoughts the more of the person is involved, the more the person is prepared for the next thought, the next move, after this one is complete.


Well, "thoughts" isn't the best choice of words, as you aren't supposed to be "thinking" about the kata. But, I know what you mean. Kata is really a pretty right-hemispheric activity; I think we both have compared it to music in one way or another. Maybe "impulses" or "perceptions." The beauty of it is, that it is almost inexpressible unless you are doing it. Maybe that is what the old guys intended.
:bow:

[rgoad]

The 'no mind' term works well, but 'thought' in a western sense can be active or passive. Wolrd Mind sort of stuff.