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I've been studying some Sambo videos by Oleg Taktarov. I really enjoy Sambo's leg locks, but have limited opportunities to practice them on a live opponent. I've been using visualization exercises to go over them in my mind. Can someone recommend any drills I can do on my own to work on them? Thanks.
Billy
Tony Dismukes
02-05-2006, 18:40
Unfortunately, it's hard to develop any significant skill in grappling techniques without a training partner. The visualization exercises can be helpful, especially if you make a point of mentally rehearsing all the small details of the technique. You can also act out/mime the movements, once again paying attention to all the details.
It's important that you know what the correct details are that you're visualizing, otherwise the practice will be useless. I don't know how much Taktarov explains about the nuances of his techniques. I would recommend you check out the instructionals by Roy Harris for explaining the fine details of the basics.
Ultimately, though, visualization exercises are really a supplemental practice method and can't substitute for training with a partner. The more experience you have working with a partner, the more detailed and effective you can make your visualization practice.
Note - if you are practicing leg lock techniques with a friend and you don't have a qualified instructor, be careful! Heel hooks and knee bars both give little warning before causing serious (possibly permanent) damage. You might be safer sticking to the straight achilles lock, which causes plenty of pain and gives your partner a chance to tap before suffering injury.
Thanks for the warning. I knew about the danger of heel hooks, but didn't realize knee bars were as dangerous. I feel bad now. I've been really working on trying to knee bar people at practice. Oleg does a good job on breaking down the little things on the tapes. But who is Roy Harris and where can I find his tapes?
Tony Dismukes
02-06-2006, 08:04
Roy Harris (website HERE) (http://www.royharris.com/) is a BJJ black belt under Joe Moreira and a Jeet Kune Do instructor under Paul Vunak. He's known as a specialist in leg locks, and as a meticulous teacher for explaining fine detail.
Yep, knee bars give much less pain warning before something breaks than an achilles lock or even an arm bar. They're a good technique, but your training partner has to know to tap once he feels you have the limb isolated, tightly controlled and extended. If he waits for it to actually hurt, it might be too late.
Aaron T Fields
02-06-2006, 13:49
Get a practice partner, and someone who knows how to do leg locks. Video etc may help but it is no substitue for quality instruction.
Aaron Fields
Seattle Jujutsu Club, Hatake Dojo
Sea-Town Sombo
www.seattle-jujutsu.org
I also endorse Roy Harris. I trained JKD and FMA with him about 12 years ago, when he was just discovering BJJ. Really sharp, organized, and friendly guy. I respect him a lot.
Thanks for the warning. I knew about the danger of heel hooks, but didn't realize knee bars were as dangerous. I feel bad now. I've been really working on trying to knee bar people at practice. Oleg does a good job on breaking down the little things on the tapes. But who is Roy Harris and where can I find his tapes?
In most BJJ schools you will find that leg locks (ankle/knee) are not allowed to be used until you achieve Blue Belt status. Both are highly dangerous when applied by an inexperienced person and being inexperienced and having it applied.
Going for leg locks will put you in a compromising position. If you miss - you give up dominate position and put your self in position to have a leg lock applied.
I know this is in the Sombo Forum and those guy/gals are leg lock heavy. I posted because of the risk of injury to your partner if you are not properly instructed outside of learning from tapes.
James O'Neill
02-07-2006, 16:45
Ahh, regarding the 'knee bar' - a long, long time ago I was one of those really dumb students who just didn't "get it" about being careful & how truly dangerous a technique that is. 10+ years later and I'm paying for it bigtime; the injury I sustained then got worse & worse until I now need knee surgery.
So what jabonn said. Be REALLY careful with heel hooks & knee bars :o
Brian R. VanCise
02-07-2006, 17:03
Yes, definately be careful and seek out quality instruction to
learn the proper technique.
Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com
Aaron T Fields
02-07-2006, 20:15
If you were in the Seattle area I would be happy to show you what I know in regards to leg locks. I started Sombo while living in the old Eastern block with that country's national team players. There is a approach to learning leg locks. Anway if you are ever in the area feel free to contact me and stop by.
Aaron Fields
Seattle Jujutsu Club, Hatake Dojo
Sea-Town Sombo
www.seattle-jujutsu.org
I appreciate all the help. I will back off on going after the knee bar so much. While I called myself being careful, I do understand about how easy it is to injure someone on accident.
For what it's worth, we have a Sambo guy in our school who grapples with us. He has showed me a few leg locks from a standing takedown. All I can say is that am glad a guy with his level of experience showed me because it was scary as hell and a less experienced person could have easily injured me. A tape would only be good for refresher.
Professional and expererienced is what you want for instruction.
If you can, your best bet is to get proper training from a good teacher. You might be doing mistakes that you don't realize while learning from a video.
There is only one school I'm aware of in the state, too much gas to get there, too high on joining fee. I'll just have to lay off the leg locks until I can get proper instruction.
good luck in the training!
There is only one school I'm aware of in the state, too much gas to get there, too high on joining fee. I'll just have to lay off the leg locks until I can get proper instruction.
Well, I know of a school in Paragould AR that is very respectable. I know its kinda far but beleive me it would be worth it to make the drive every once in a while. I get there when I can and always walk away with a lot of new knowledge. If you are looking to improve you will find what your looking for there. The instructor is very knowledgable and very well trained. He is one of the best in the world at leg locks. He can also introduce you to one of his instructors, Gokor Chivanchian (Spelling?) and if you wanted to participate in tournaments around the state and region he would be able to hook you up. There is no joining fee that I am aware of for someone out of town, it is not that kind of school, but I would give something as a matter of respect and grattitude. Good luck
comanighttrain
03-23-2006, 08:37
If you cant find a club, start one larn the techniques from books and suchlike. I know people are against this idea but! without it we wouldnt have any MA clubs.
As for training them, the only meagre substitute for a human partner is a wrestling dummy, or shadow wrestling, but unless you have wrestled youll never know what to expect....
If you cant find a club, start one larn the techniques from books and suchlike. I know people are against this idea but! without it we wouldnt have any MA clubs.
As for training them, the only meagre substitute for a human partner is a wrestling dummy, or shadow wrestling, but unless you have wrestled youll never know what to expect....
The previous posters explained why they are against this already: no one trained in the art is supervising, and without someone who knows the safe limits of training, the chance of accidental injury will go up greatly.
comanighttrain
03-23-2006, 12:49
but if one is not availible, which of the two is more acceptible? no training or a slight increase of injury?
Its not as great an increase as you would think, i had to train in wrestling w/out an instructor and i didnt get injured seriously or often.
comanighttrain
03-23-2006, 12:58
but if one is not availible, which of the two is more acceptible? no training or a slight increase of injury?
i personally chose to train, but thats just me, if your not wanting to get hurt then you shouldnt be doing MA anyway.
Its not as great an increase as you would think, i had to train in wrestling w/out an instructor and i didnt get injured seriously or often.
Tony Dismukes
03-23-2006, 14:01
Dave, what we were warning against was not all training without a teacher, just certain specific techniques which carry a high risk of injury.
Personally, I think that the straight achilles lock is probably okay to drill with a friend at home, because it generally produces quite a bit of pain before injury. As long as your training partner has the sense to tap out when they feel the pain, they should be okay. However, heel hooks and kneebars may not produce appreciable pain before something gets severely damaged. Therefore a training partner who isn't used to those techniques could easily end up with a serious long-term injury.
There's plenty of techniques which can be practiced with (relative) safety, as long as you use good sense and don't get too testosterone-crazed. In the absence of good instruction, stick to the safer moves.
comanighttrain
03-23-2006, 17:14
[QUOTE=Tony Dismukes]
However, heel hooks and kneebars may not produce appreciable pain before something gets severely damaged. Therefore a training partner who isn't used to those techniques could easily end up with a serious long-term injury.[QUOTE]
The knee bar hurts like crazy!!! You will tap before damage unless your a testo-nutter. The heek hook isnt a legal move in sambo and therefor is usually only taught as part of combat sambo, i totally agree though its a very dangerous move.
Remember the kickboxing gym i described in another thread? they had a bjj class and they done heel hooks full force ALL the time, im surprised noone has been seriously hurt.
I think leg lock specialists are going to become more plentiful in MMA future!
comanighttrain
03-24-2006, 16:29
your right about that, dave terrel is pretty good with them
Tony Dismukes
03-24-2006, 16:36
The knee bar hurts like crazy!!! You will tap before damage unless your a testo-nutter.
That seems to vary for different people. For myself, I tap once the joint feels really locked up with nowhere to go. Usually the only pain I feel from a kneebar is in my hamstring if I fight to flex out of the hold. The actual joint doesn't usually hurt. (I imagine that if I waited for actual damage it would hurt pretty badly.)
Jeff Burger
03-24-2006, 23:12
The knee bar doesnt seem to bother me if its done in direction of the joint. If its lateral Ill tap just knowing that angle of pressure is coming.
Jeff
some people will tap just due to very poor flexibilty!
I think leg lock specialists are going to become more plentiful in MMA future!
I think there are quite a few leg lock specialist out there already. However I don't see them become the norm in MMA anytime in the near future because they open you up to more punishment, leave you more vulnerable to counter submissions, and have a lower percentage of success.
As far as the knee bar I'm like Tony I usually feel it in my hamstring. I suspect though if I did feel it in the joint it would be to late and some serious damge would have been done. Knee bars are a dangerous technique and like the heel hook if you are waiting for the serious pain it maybe that your ankle is broke and your knee is shredded.
James O'Neill
03-31-2006, 08:45
I didn't feel really much pain at all from the knee bar I mentioned earlier in the thread - that's why I thought I could wiggle / roll out of it...
"I think there are quite a few leg lock specialist out there already. However I don't see them become the norm in MMA anytime in the near future because they open you up to more punishment, leave you more vulnerable to counter submissions, and have a lower percentage of success."
Yeah - leg lock specialists are nothing new. If anyone remembers the small Japanese fighter from the movie "Choke" you will realize that although you can win a fight with a heel hook, you can also get your face pounded into ground chuck in the process :D
thats a problem with leg locks, if you don't get them in tight, you can get pounded :)
Tony Dismukes
03-31-2006, 10:27
Currently I'm trying to focus on those leg/footlocks which don't require you to make your position worse. Examples would be wrapping the leg for a heelhook when your opponent is already standing over top of you or grabbing a foot for a standing/kneeling figure-four footlock when trying to pass an opponent's open guard. I'm trying to avoid such moves as sitting back for a straight achilles lock when I'm in the process of passing guard, since if it doesn't work I've likely given my opponent top position.
Same here, Tony. But aren't you always exposed to the other guy's legs and lower body when entering the lock? The least exposure seems to be a stnding heel lock if you catch his kick. If you can get him on his back you can stand on his other leg/knee.
As far the knee lock, I had surgery last year due to one done wildly. It didn't hurt until the 'snap' was heard.
Tony, its a measure of speed and technique. Sitting back for achilles or heel hook will work, keeping the legs crossed over helps me control the persons, or fake it and kick him in the face :)
Tony Dismukes
03-31-2006, 12:30
Sitting back for achilles or heel hook will work
Sure, it can work. I've sucessfully done it plenty of times. The problem is that if it doesn't work, you've just ended up in a significantly worse position than you were in before.
But aren't you always exposed to the other guy's legs and lower body when entering the lock?
Yes, but I'm not more exposed than I already was in the starting position. It's less of a high-risk gamble.
I guess with practice one gets better..did for me! Good training!
comanighttrain
04-01-2006, 18:55
Yeah, im not a big fan on the achilles lock, my coach taught me a calf crush i will take to the grave, totally amazing move that saves you from getting an asshanding when you fluff a knee bar.
Ill try to get a vid up of it, failing that ill just post a walkthrough of it.
Gordon Nore
04-01-2006, 20:19
Dave, what we were warning against was ... certain specific techniques which carry a high risk of injury.
...However, heel hooks and kneebars may not produce appreciable pain before something gets severely damaged. Therefore a training partner who isn't used to those techniques could easily end up with a serious long-term injury.
Tony,
This and other comments you made about knee-bars took me on a little trip down memory lane. The thread started with a discussion of Oleg Taktarov's Sambo tapes. Ten years ago my school hosted a seminar with Oleg. I had been training for only a year and had just graded for yellow belt. I was planning to practise with a classmate of my same rank and age, but he got called into work, so I ended up pairing off with a young, agile JJJ black belt I didn't know who had come to the seminar.
We were doing the knee-bar and before I knew it, I was shrieking in agony. I don't blame anyone. Maybe he applied a little too much pressure, and I do recall that I tapped the mat rather than tapping my partner, but that was probably one of the most painful experiences I have had in the dojo. Fortunately, no permanent injury, and I learned to tap my partner ever since!
The pic below is from the seminar -- Oleg was showing me some kind of ankle lock on the same guy I did the knee-bar with.
http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/gallery/files/1/8/5/oleg1.jpg
What was Oleg like at the seminar?
Gordon Nore
04-08-2006, 20:35
What was Oleg like at the seminar?
Bear in mind, this was my first seminar, and I knew squat about ground fighting. I found his instruction difficult to follow, maybe because of language. However, more experienced ground grapplers seemed to get something out of it.
I will say this for him. On day two, because of a major screw-up, we were locked out of the location of the seminar. Oleg took everyone out to the parking lot and did some defense stuff in street clothes, which I thought was a really stand-up thing to do. (No pun intended.)
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