Black Belt > or = Bachelor's of Science?

[R. Johnson]

In December I will be graduating from the University of Oklahoma with a BS in Aviation Management. It will be four and a half school years that I have spent working on it.
In June (approx.) I will be getting my Black Belt in Tae Kwon Do. It will be four continuous years of hard work, traing, and studying various books outside of class. Many hours spent researching the various styles of TKD and what organizations use which patterns. Lots of time spent looking into the other systems of martial arts and how they relate to or contribute to my knowledge of TKD.

Even though my BS is likely to get me a very nice starting salary with some place like the FAA, getting my black belt means far more to me. To me it just means more than the academic studying I've done. Not that the academics aren't important to me...they are, but that belt just means more to me. I've put more into it. Unfortunately it doesn't hold the same weight in society that a BS does. Anyone else feel this way?

[dao]

I understand. Everyone (almost) expected that I would earn a BS when I started college. Nobody expected that I would start MA let alone earn a BB. Somehow that makes it moe special for me and somehow its more "mine".

[Gene Williams]

Yep.

..........

[Rasputin]

I joined Heiwashinryu jujutsu over four years ago. During that time I have seen new people come and go, but over 99% of them have or will have quit by the time I am granted my Shodan.

If college was like that I think you would be a lot prouder of your accomplishment.

Oh, and it doesn't hurt that you just spent 4 years and tens of thousands of dollars and all you have to show for it is B.S. ;)

[NickR]

I understand. Everyone (almost) expected that I would earn a BS when I started college. Nobody expected that I would start MA let alone earn a BB. Somehow that makes it moe special for me and somehow its more "mine".

Yes, just seems much more a personal experience training in an MA than studying at uni.

[Tony Dismukes]

Hmm ... I took an easy major for my bachelors (psychology). I had to put in 12 hours per week of class time and about the same amount of time outside of class.

Of course, I had summer vacation, spring break, and so on. I suppose that if you wanted to compare it to an activity that I studied year round, that might translate to about 8 hours classtime + 8 hours study outside of class per week. Doing that for 4 years will certainly earn you your shodan in most dojos.

As I said, psych is a relatively easy major. Engineering, physics or mathematics typically require more classroom hours and more time spent doing homework. I know that when I went back to school to take calculus, I spent 5 hours in class + 10 hours doing homework per week for that one class. Let's conservatively guess that a serious student in physics or mathematics has the equivalent of a full time job (40+ hours/week total) studying. Doing that for 4 years is definitely more than is required for a black belt in most systems.

College typically involves a greater monetary investment.

The demands on self-discipline and emotional commitment might be greater for either college or a black belt, depending on the personal inclinations and talents of the individual.

Achieving a black belt typically involves greater physical demands on the body.

College students often have greater social expectations that they will complete their studies and a greater support network to help them make it through. (Those that don't are at a much greater risk of failure.) Martial arts are usually much more self-motivated. If you drop out of the dojo before reaching black belt, you're not likely screwing up your future career and your family isn't likely to give you a hard time.

It's that last aspect which may make reaching a black belt seem like more of an accomplishment to a young student. It's a goal which you decided on and reached all by yourself, whereas perhaps college was part of the continuing education track that your parents guided you into.

In contrast, consider my situation. I'm a computer programmer with a full-time job and a wife to support. Since my degree is irrelevant to my current profession, I'd like to go back to school and get a second degree in Computer Science or Computer Engineering. I can't afford to quit work, so I'd have to do all my coursework in the evenings. I'm not sure what financial aid is available, so I'm operating under the assumption that I'd have to pay for everything out of pocket. I've managed to get my basic pre-requisites for the first 2 years (calculus, linear algebra, physics, chemistry, basic engineering) out of the way at my local community college. Now it's a matter of budgeting the time, money and emotional energy to complete junior & senior level engineering coursework while working full time and taking care of family and other life responsibilities. If I ever complete this project, I will regard it as a much greater accomplishment than getting another black belt. I pretty much take it for granted at this point that I will accumulate more black belts along the way.

[don]

Say the person who sticks it out trains 3-6 hours/week, what with family responsitlbilites and all:

---------- 6 X 52 X 6 = 1872 hours for SHODAN

Compare with a year of elementary school; 25 hours/week, how many, 48 weeks/year?:

---------- 25 X 48 = 1200 hours for ONE YEAR ofelementary school.

So a SHODAN represents, what, mid-term 2nd Grade?

(Ducking and running...)

[Tonersensei]

In some cases the Black Belt is definately more uesful than a college degree.

[Neil Yamamoto]

Don,

The behavior I see in many black belts is about that of second graders!

So, extrapolate from that, a 6-7dan would be about a senior in high school or a freshman, maybe sophomore in college. Yep, that's about right, drinks too much, always chasing skirt, eats too much, and can make an *** of himself and his peers accept it as OK.

(Ducking and running with Don)

[Erik]

It seems to me that many people seem to believe that a black belt or a degree actually means something.

Sometimes it does, sometimes it is nonsense, depends upon the program and the student.

Also, the MA or the academic major matters a lot, as well. Like Tony, I took an easy major as an undergrad (poli-sci and history) and became a computer programmer. The difference in difficulty of the two fields is like night and day, though the liberal arts was made pretty tough at my undergrad uni compared with the program at my grad school (CS), much like one TKD school can be a joke and another pretty hard, even if they are doing the same MA.

One more thing, colleges generally have a selection process for their students, so only those with a certain amount of motivation can even start up. MAs are not always like this where many are hoping for whatever business they can get. Not all, of course, but in general, I believe this is so.

Tony - you only spent 10 hours per week on your calculus? Dang, man, I had to work harder than that! We had an algorithms course with AT LEAST 5 hours of HW per day, including 5 hours on Saturday, 5 hours on Sunday. This stupid course was almost a full-time job, between that, the labs, and class time - oh, and studying for the weekly quizzes that only partially represented the coursework we had been doing.... As the whole HW, quiz, midterm, etc., were one long proof, a single mistake (forget an i++? or a semi-colon?) could, and usually did, cost you the entire assignment. Literally, one missing ";" and your A goes to an F. I hated that wench professor! :mad:

[Ridge]

It depends on the black belt and it depends on the B.S. degree.
I would guess that a BB would have better techs, while someone with a degree will be better at training.

[Tony Dismukes]

Tony - you only spent 10 hours per week on your calculus?

I have a natural talent for math stuff. I might have done something useful with that if I had had any self-discipline when I was younger. Instead, I took the easy way through school. Now I have the discipline, but no time.


We had an algorithms course with AT LEAST 5 hours of HW per day, including 5 hours on Saturday, 5 hours on Sunday.

I'm kind of afraid I may run into that when I finally get the money together to tackle upper level programming/engineering classes. I'm trying to get some serious dojo time in now, because I know my martial arts training will mostly fall by the wayside if I have to work through classes like that*. I'm also trying to do more advanced computer science study on my own so that the classes will be easier when I do take them.

*(Speaking of which, have you had the chance to get back into your own BJJ training?)

[Erik]

You'll do great, Tony. Just talk with the department office when you make your class schedules. Approach the subject like you need to find out which courses are the most time- and detail intensive as you have a job and need to prioritize. Then, they are less likely to think you're looking for an easy way out.

As for self-study, if you know the book a certain class is going to be used, use it. Get a sylabus from a previous quarter with the reading assignments, labs, etc. You know the drill. You'll do great!

Saw the UFC on Sat. with the BJJ guys. It was great to see them again - even better than I expected. I'm trying to balance time, increased work intensity, the 60 minute drive to BJJ, as well as the gym where I train at lunch (bike, abs, curls). But, I should be heading back this month. I just hate that *@#$%!@% drive, but I love it when I'm there!!!

[don]

So, extrapolate from that, a 6-7dan would be about a senior in high school or a freshman, maybe sophomore in college. Yep, that's about right, drinks too much, always chasing skirt, eats too much, and can make an *** of himself and his peers accept it as OK.

(Ducking and running with Don)

LOL!
.

[Flipping Good Time]

A bachelor's degree is, in my opinion much more valuable than a black belt because it is in a completely different category. It is the culmination of somewhere around 15 years of education, studying and work and your life may very well revolve around your degree and your future occupation and focus may be dictated by your field of study.

Maybe if you dedicated your life to the martial arts it would be comparable to a bachelors degree. 5 days a week, 8-10 months a year for 15 years is a huge chunk of your life that you have dedicated to education. I'd say for the student who has dedicated 10-15 years as an uchideshi or other full-time student the skill that they have attained would be the equivalent of a bachelors degree. Or in part-time terms, maybe 40 or 50 years of training. Now there may be no belt that denotes this level of training and dedication, but it is definately above and beyond the skill level that first degree black belt denotes in most styles/dojos that I have seen. I think of getting a black belt as somewhere in the neighbourhood of graduating elementary school in the grand scheme achievement/training, which is huge when you consider the scale of personal growth that a student goes through during those pivotal years in their development.

[SteyrAUG]

I discovered I became a much happier person when I stopped caring about what other people thought was important. ;)

[Stauds]

I discovered I became a much happier person when I stopped caring about what other people thought was important. ;)
Hah, so true.

For the topic, it's all on how much value YOU put into what you do. Who cares what other's think? If I put a lot of time into something, I will be proud of my accomplishment, regardless if someone doesn't understand, or thinks it is not a "feat"..

[Peter Rehse]

I always saw the B.Sc. or yudansha grade or [insert short term goal here] as a gateway to other things. By themselves not that important.

Well it took me a little longer to get B.Sc. than yudansha grade but even so - I studied full time. Classes, lab work, homework. There is no way, even with holidays and even if they took the same amount of time, that the two could compare. Just look at the number of exams that were required.

[Gae-Bek]

If college was like that I think you would be a lot prouder of your accomplishment.

College IS like that. I don't have a source to quote, but last I heard [nationwide] only 35% to 40% of all Americans who start post-high-school education actually earn a bachelor's degree.

As for the where a Black Belt falls, I'm with Erik in that it's all about the school. I know a few good, technically-strong Black Belts. But I know MANY MORE Black Belts who couldn't fight-off a Care Bear if their life depended on it.

Basically, your Black Belt means that you have mastered the BASIC CURRICULUM of your school. And that is the only place that it has any value. You go outside of your school, even in the same art, and generally your belt doesn't mean the same thing. So "No", a Black Belt isn't even in the same league as a bachelor's degree.

[howard]

Ryan, congratulations on your double accomplishment. You must have had to put in a lot of hard work to complete the two pretty much simultaneously. Clearly, you have plenty of self-discipline. That alone will take you a long way in life, regardless of what type of vocation you choose to pursue.

Best of luck in both your chosen professional field, and in TKD.

[Erik]

Gosh, another way to think of it, would your black belt help you get a job? Or your BA/BS?

Funny - my brown belt in kung fu and green belt in judo got me a job as a bouncer which paid about 3x as much as teaching classes at the university, a job my BA got me. So, it seems that MAs were more economically useful than college.

Go kung fu and piss off political science!!! Heck, you don't even need to know poli-sci to be president.

[R. Johnson]

Ryan, congratulations on your double accomplishment. You must have had to put in a lot of hard work to complete the two pretty much simultaneously. Clearly, you have plenty of self-discipline. That alone will take you a long way in life, regardless of what type of vocation you choose to pursue.

Best of luck in both your chosen professional field, and in TKD.


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