Difficult Time Adjusting...

[Dark Mage]

I'm new here. (Didn't see an "Introduction" section, so I've been just checking the place out)

A bit of history...
I started in American Freestyle Karate, back in the late 70's. "Earned" my black belt, and then discovered that I was missing the boat, so to speak.
I progressed to Tae Kwon Do, Tang Soo Do, and then Hapkido and earned high ranking in them all.
Still felt like I was missing something and began to study Shaolin Long Fist...
That was a fiasco. I just didn't "feel" it...
Then, in 1990, I began studying Yoshukai.
I thoroughly enjoyed that and received my 3rd kyu. A back injury and some knee surgeries halted my practice, and then I moved back home to Texas.

I have been out of Martial Arts training now for 9 years, and this past October, I finally decided to start back. I found an Aikido school that I really enjoy and am "moving right along".

Here's where my dilema lies.
I am having a hard time adjusting to everything I've always been taught, regarding block and counter with attacks. Aikido is so different than anything I've ever studied, and the concept of "emptying my cup" is really hitting home.
For instance...blocking a punch or kick, and then countering with same, has been the "norm" for me. Now, I'm supposed to be more of a "softer" stylist and show compassion and more control...

How does one make this transition easier? How do I go from "punch and kick" to a more "harmonious" balance?

Just a question...
BTW, Nice forum here. I'm having a good time reading some of the threads/posts here. :)

[SeiserL]

How does one make this transition easier? How do I go from "punch and kick" to a more "harmonious" balance?
I too came from years in the bashing arts (FMA/JKD) and found the transition difficult.

IMHO, slow down and think about what you are doing without making any reference or comparison to past training. Maintian a beginners mind and form a new mental map about how to enter and blend with an attack.

Do mental rehearsal when not physically training.

Takes a while to change the mind, but its worth the effort.

Hope that helps in some small way.

[don]

I'm new here. (Didn't see an "Introduction" section, so I've been just checking the place out)


Welcome to the forum. Thanks for the intro. (I never even thought of doing that when I began on BBS's.)


Aikido is so different than anything I've ever studied, and the concept of "emptying my cup" is really hitting home.
For instance...blocking a punch or kick, and then countering with same, has been the "norm" for me. Now, I'm supposed to be more of a "softer" stylist and show compassion and more control...

I would make a distinction here between the physical and the moral. If you’re talking about the physical differences between striking arts and aikido, yes, there are some accommodations to be made. But “soft” is a slippery concept.

Ever read "Blink"? Preconceptions rule. I've had Saotome enter a lunge punch and like to take my head off.

Soft my asterisks! We just don't call it a right cross, it's--IRIMI.

Then again, every dojo is different. I’m very glad to train under Saotome and his folk with emphasis on fighting utility.

As to compassion, I cringe anytime I see claims made for the moral superiority of aikido. Folk readily confuse the aspiration with the accomplishment. No art has a lock on proportionate response.

I don't think that aikidoists demonstrates more compassion than is seen in other arts, not that aikidoists are hypocrites, just that the striking folks aren’t all brutes. Aikido goes too far with the hype in my estimation. It's no sin to be effective. And rankly, if you apply aikido technique on a determined opponent, you will likely hurt him much more than a simple KO would.

It might be of interest that there is quite a literature devoted to killing bad guys out of compassion for their karma. Compassion is not meant to dictate weak technique.

Hope this is food for thought.

[rgoad]

May I suggest a heresy? Don't think of it as a Martial art, think of it as a dance or just movement. Yes, yes, yes, it is a martial art. But to get your body to relax and perform the movements it needs to empty the cup, as you said, of it's conditioned responses. That can be harder than conscious movement. You'll need to trick you body for a while, then you will begin to absorb the principles and incorporate them with what you already know.

There is a beginner waiting for his third class in about an hour. He took Shotokan before nad you can see it in his stances whenever he is preparing to work with another person. I did the same thing. It happens to all of us.

Good luck and HAVE FUN!

[Erik]

If your mind can differentiate between kicking/punching vs. wrestling, then consider aikido to be wrestling, at first.

You'll get used to it and no longer have to think of it as wrestling.

If that fails, go a few rounds with a decent MMA guy and you'll really experience the difference between striking (like shooting a bow) and grappling (getting up close and personal). It ought to help you separate in your mind the differences.

[Dark Mage]

Thanks for all of the sound advice. I appreciate it.

[Flipping Good Time]

Just stick with it and eventually your body will become more conditioned to responding in the ways you are taught. Obviously the reflexive reactions you obtained through years of training in other arts won't just go away, but that isn't a bad thing. As long as you can refrain from kicking or punching your training partners and hold back your gut reactions, you'll be fine.

[Xuzen]

Howard,

You come from a background of striking arts where their strategies are different from that of aikido. Give it some time, you are learning some stuff that are completely alien to your body.

[Peter Rehse]

What style of Aikido are you practicing?

What you will find is that the more emphasis your teacher puts on the basics (correct stance and movement) the more counter intuitive Aikido will feel in the beginning. The same was true for the striking arts I practiced. Years of training in another style often is no different than years of training in nothing. All I can advise is try to think back to the time you first started MA - I guarantee your frustration level will be less.

Richard that's not a heresy - its a truism. I often compare Aikido to dance. Watch how serious a top level dancer takes their role. You dance Giselle you must become a 16 year old pack of naivity; you dance Carmen you must become a 26 year old pack of trouble. Same with Budo.

[rgoad]

Richard that's not a heresy - its a truism. I often compare Aikido to dance. Watch how serious a top level dancer takes their role. You dance Giselle you must become a 16 year old pack of naivity; you dance Carmen you must become a 26 year old pack of trouble. Same with Budo.Wow! This reminds me of a line from the movie Tombstone when Ringo and Doc Holiday are cursing each other in Latin and Holiday remarks, "So, an educated man. Now I know I hate him." But my reaction is admiration.

[Dark Mage]

What style of Aikido are you practicing?

What you will find is that the more emphasis your teacher puts on the basics (correct stance and movement) the more counter intuitive Aikido will feel in the beginning. The same was true for the striking arts I practiced. Years of training in another style often is no different than years of training in nothing. All I can advise is try to think back to the time you first started MA - I guarantee your frustration level will be less.

Richard that's not a heresy - its a truism. I often compare Aikido to dance. Watch how serious a top level dancer takes their role. You dance Giselle you must become a 16 year old pack of naivity; you dance Carmen you must become a 26 year old pack of trouble. Same with Budo.

Aikikai is the style, although it has been a bit "modified".
Actually, it's called American Kobudo Ryu which is based on Aikikai.

[DragonMind]

Forgive me, but isn't Aikikai an organization rather than a style of Aikido? http://www.aikikai.or.jp/eng/index.htm

[Ron Tisdale]

American Kobudo Ryu? Yikes. I think you should first find out if you really want to learn AIKIDO. Then, if that is what you want, do a CAREFULL search for someone with a legitimate claim to teaching it.

Best,
Ron (this is only my opinion, I could be wrong)

[Dark Mage]

American Kobudo Ryu? Yikes. I think you should first find out if you really want to learn AIKIDO. Then, if that is what you want, do a CAREFULL search for someone with a legitimate claim to teaching it.

Best,
Ron (this is only my opinion, I could be wrong)

I knew it wouldn't take long for that...
:o

Here's the deal.
I live in East Texas, and this is as close as I can get to a "real" school.
I was wary, (and still am), but I'm learning some decent techniques and getting a good workout.

And with the experience I already have, I find much of the stuff I am learning to be applicable and valid...

[Ron Tisdale]

Hey, if you're happy, and getting what you want, go for it.

I do hope you have a chance to ... broaden your aikido experience some time. Can you say what rank your instructor is and from whom he recieved it (in aikido)?

Best,
Ron

[Dark Mage]

Yes.
He is just a Shodan, and he received it from the AKR Aikido Dojo in Greenville.
He is an ex-police officer and ex-Marine and seems to know what he's doing. But...Well, if it came down to it, in a "real" situation, I think I could take him...:lol:

[TonyU]

ex-Marine
No such thing.

[Ron Tisdale]

Oh, I have no doubts that he is tough enough...but that in and of itself says NOTHING about the quality of his aikido...especially if he wasn't even taught by someone actually ranked and trained in one of the major organizations. Which by itself doesn't mean a whole lot either, sometimes (take my aikido for instance ;) ).

I can hit pretty hard, and take a fair shot...but if someone asked me to teach them aikido, I'd send them to my teacher.

There's a guy here in pa that ranked himself 8th dan. Still can't find out where he actually TRAINED in aikido. Now exactly how is this 8th dan supposed to TEACH aikido? Mind you, the guy is fit, fairly large, knows how to grapple and fight. But I wouldn't go to him to learn AIKIDO.

Best,
Ron

[Dark Mage]

No such thing.

Ya got me there...

I don't have any doubts that my instructor is good, and he does have the ability to teach.

But...I will, when time and location permits, find a school where I will feel more comfortable.
Until then, I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt, and I am going to learn all I can from him.

[wab25]

I always judge people individually. Sure, knowing where they learned, and their group history helps give you an idea.... But think of it this way. Just because you learn from him, and get ranked by him, does that make you a poor martial artist? I mean with all your other training, and work ethic and experience, you are still a good martial artist, taking a class from the best available, in the area. It may not be "aikido" in the truest sense, but it is still martial arts. I afford him the same benefit of the doubt. I know plenty of martial artists who surpassed those that taught them. Conversly, even if a person has the most legitimate rank, I still judge them individually......

[Peter Rehse]

Forgive me, but isn't Aikikai an organization rather than a style of Aikido? http://www.aikikai.or.jp/eng/index.htm
Well Barry yes and no. Perhaps Peter G. can do better explaining this.

Aikikai is an umbrella organization in that there are a number of top level teachers that have quite large stylistic differences BUT Honbu does have a standard testing curriculum and requirements and most of these top-level teachers maintain relatively close contact with Honbu.

[P Goldsbury]

Forgive me, but isn't Aikikai an organization rather than a style of Aikido? http://www.aikikai.or.jp/eng/index.htm

I think Peter Rehse gave the correct explanation, so take these remarks as a supplement to his post.

One could ask the same question with the Kobukan: the Aikikai's predecessor: to what extent was there a definite style of daito-ryu / aiki-budo practised? There was the source: Morihei Ueshiba, but many of his students came from other arts and then returned to them after training with him for a while. Those who remained in aiki-budo (and in aikido after it received this name) also developed in their own individual ways.

At some point in the early 1930s the Kobukan became an organization, called the Kobukai, and this was later changed to the Aikikai. This organization remained, but the leadership of this organization passed quite quickly from Morihei Ueshiba to his son Kisshomaru, who grew up with the old disciples in the Kobukan and was actually quite junior to them.

Kisshomaru Ueshiba's leadership of the Aikikai was quite naturally different from that of his father, but Kisshomaru retained most of the personal links with the older disciples and also treated the new generation of postwar deshi, whom he also played a major role in educating, in the same way. There are the personal links, but also sharp variations of style, both in training and in the technical aspects of the waza.

Best regards,

[Webmaster]

I think Peter Rehse gave the correct explanation, so take these remarks as a supplement to his post.

One could ask the same question with the Kobukan: the Aikikai's predecessor: to what extent was there a definite style of daito-ryu / aiki-budo practised? There was the source: Morihei Ueshiba, but many of his students came from other arts and then returned to them after training with him for a while. Those who remained in aiki-budo (and in aikido after it received this name) also developed in their own individual ways.

At some point in the early 1930s the Kobukan became an organization, called the Kobukai, and this was later changed to the Aikikai. This organization remained, but the leadership of this organization passed quite quickly from Morihei Ueshiba to his son Kisshomaru, who grew up with the old disciples in the Kobukan and was actually quite junior to them.

Kisshomaru Ueshiba's leadership of the Aikikai was quite naturally different from that of his father, but Kisshomaru retained most of the personal links with the older disciples and also treated the new generation of postwar deshi, whom he also played a major role in educating, in the same way. There are the personal links, but also sharp variations of style, both in training and in the technical aspects of the waza.

Best regards,
This is why I enjoy reading your post Peter G. You seem to be very tuned in to what is going on at the source. With that in mind and expanding on your previous post, how has Moriteru Ueshiba done has the new Doshu? Has he continued those contacts, changed things, kept the peace, etc? Just curious as to how you and others close to the source believe he is doing.

[P Goldsbury]

Hello Mr Carver,

Are you familar with the concept of iemoto? I am sure you are. It is sometimes used to define the head of a Japanese 'traditional' art that is not so traditional. The term came into vogue in connection with arts that became popular in the Genroku era (late Tokugawa), as more and more non-samurai took them up and the more traditional concept of 'do/michi' the path followed by an individual student under an individual master became less easy to apply. The difference is that the allegiance of the student is not merely to one individual, but to the 'ie' or 'family'.

The Ueshiba family actually dislike the application to aikido of the term 'iemoto', but I think the concept fits. Moriteru Ueshiba is the 3rd Doshu and his son Mitsuteru is shortly to graduate from university (in January, when I talked to him, he was anxious about his grades at school) and, of course will enter the family... ('business' would be the normal term to use here, but there are the same infelicitous nuances here as for 'iemoto').

I am not sure to what extent Morihei Ueshiba saw himself as the head of a family line. Clearly he was anxious for an heir and made several attempts to marry some of his best students into the Ueshiba family, to maintain the succession. However, one can also see this concern in the more traditional and individualistic terms of 'do/michi'. Thus, when he eventually decided that Kisshomaru would be his heir, he seems to have seen this relationship, also, in traditional 'do/michi' terms and left his son to run things largely as he wished.

I am certain that Kisshomaru was much more of a hard-nosed pragmatic leader than his father was. In his biography, he notes that Morihei was completely reckless with money and financial issues, and from 1942 onwards was quite happy to potter around Iwama in a wooden shack. It fell to Kisshomaru to look after the Tokyo Hombu during World War II and to rebuild the dojo (building and institution) afterwards, for Morihei began to emerge from Iwama only from 1955 onwards. Morihei Ueshiba's name and reputation attracted some very remarkable disciples, but it was Kisshomaru who largely determined whether they were accepted and played a major role in their training. (Of course many of these disciples will state with conviction that they were/are deshi of the Founder, but this, while true, needs to be taken in a certain context.)

So Kisshomaru bequeathed to Moriteru a rather different organization from the one he inherited from his father. It was a going concern, not one teetering on the edge of collapse. Not long after the Founder's death, there was the split with Koichi Tohei, which caused much damage to the Aikikai in particular and to aikido in general. So, for Kisshomaru it was all the more important to strengthen the network of personal connections with the older disciples, which largely remained in place after Morihei Ueshiba died in 1969. When he was Doshu, Kisshomaru made efforts to repair the damage from the split with K Tohei, but Moriteru has not had this problem. There are simply no major divisions within the Aikikai Hombu about the nature of waza and training methodolgy.

Moriteru Ueshiba has kept things largely as he inherited them, but has tightened up in some respects. Unlike his father, he has not yet made any 9th dan promotions, for example. Nevertheless, it has to be said that the disciples he has attracted are rather different from those who gathered around Kisshomaru when the Founder was active.

In addition, the era of Japanese 'pioneer' shihans, residing overseas to teach aikido and establish a new 'frontier' is coming to an end. First, the people are not available and, secondly, the organizations overseas are now more mature, producing their own students of 6th dan and 7th dan rank, and more aware of the cultural issues involved. When K Chiba went to live in the UK, he was a 26-year-old 5th dan. There is no way that a 26-year-old 5th dan could march into a country and call the shots there, unless there was no aikido at all to speak of. Even then, the technical assistance offered is in the form of occasional visits, but not only from Japan. So there has been a levelling out between Jaopan and the restof the aikido world and this is something both sides have to live with.

Sorry, I have gone on too long.

Best wishes,

PAG

[Xuzen]

...<snip>...

Sorry, I have gone on too long.

Best wishes,

PAG

No, not at all Peter-sama. I thoroughly enjoyed your informative "insider" account of the ongoing regarding Hombu.

Boon.

[Webmaster]

Sorry, I have gone on too long.
Oh, not at all! ;) You answered my questions and concerns that there might be another rift that would pull Aikido apart. Despite Tohei's split, Aikido has been blessed with being far more unified than most other arts and I would have hated to see it torn by petty bickering or political nonsense.

Thanks again!

[Dark Mage]

I always judge people individually. Sure, knowing where they learned, and their group history helps give you an idea.... But think of it this way. Just because you learn from him, and get ranked by him, does that make you a poor martial artist? I mean with all your other training, and work ethic and experience, you are still a good martial artist, taking a class from the best available, in the area. It may not be "aikido" in the truest sense, but it is still martial arts. I afford him the same benefit of the doubt. I know plenty of martial artists who surpassed those that taught them. Conversly, even if a person has the most legitimate rank, I still judge them individually......

Well said...
I appreciate it.

[Ron Tisdale]

That statement was well said, but it still does somewhat miss the point.

I know of any number of places where I can find tough people training hard in something **like** aikido. But if what I want to learn is **aikido**, and not something **like** it, my interests would best be served in finding someone who at least actually **studied** it. Not some mish mash of waza thrown together loosely under that name (I am not saying that is what you are studying...just making a point).

If I go to Paris to study French cooking, and this guy says 'yeah, I can teach you that', but what he really teaches is something else...how long is my first job at a French resturant going to last?? Will my willfull ignorance and acceptance of what my teacher taught me make anyone else cut me any slack?

Best,
Ron

[wab25]

That statement was well said, but it still does somewhat miss the point.
However, if you are stuck in some small backwoods place, and don't have the ability to go to France, yet, its better to study with the best person you can, until you get the opportunity to seek better. At the very least, you will be in better shape. I get what you are saying about studying the real deal, verses something that is good, just not the real deal. But, if the real deal ain't available, should he sit on his couch watching Steven Seagal movies or should he train in something? My vote, is to train with the best available, until you can find better.

[Ron Tisdale]

My vote would be to find some judo...or kendo...or boxing...anything available that is real. No need to sit on the couch. You can do that when you are old and crippled! :)

If fact, a good case can be made that solid training in judo is an excellent preparation for studying aikido...many of the founder's early students had a strong background in judo.
Best,
Ron

[rgoad]

That is excellent advice. I would add that you should try to find legit Judo, BJJ, boxing, or wrestling as they are probably the easiest to locate. Look at police gyms/civic centres. When I was young the cops taught boxing and judo to young people.

Finally, travel. Get a friend from one of the above schools and figure out how, by hook or crook, to get to a school and train with a legit instructor. If you are looking for Aikido specifically, that may be harder than it sounds. You need the friend, more than one if you can, so you can both take notes and bring home the lessons to study. Travel is cheaper than you would think if you really want to go.

[Aikidog]

I don't know either.

For me it does'nt matter what art you're learning. It matter's how good the teacher is. From what you're saying, if your teacher is just a shodan from some Aikikai school, then it may not be the best thing. Thats a call you're going to have to make.

How about traditional Okinawan Karate schools, (shorin ryu, etc) or Ju Jitsu schools? I love Aikido, but it's really a style where the teaching has to be precise and spot on. The art is based almost solely on the correct application of the technique to be effective. You can't strong arm your way through it.

[swchiro]

I'm new here. (Didn't see an "Introduction" section, so I've been just checking the place out)

A bit of history...
I started in American Freestyle Karate, back in the late 70's. "Earned" my black belt, and then discovered that I was missing the boat, so to speak.
I progressed to Tae Kwon Do, Tang Soo Do, and then Hapkido and earned high ranking in them all.
Still felt like I was missing something and began to study Shaolin Long Fist...
That was a fiasco. I just didn't "feel" it...
Then, in 1990, I began studying Yoshukai.
I thoroughly enjoyed that and received my 3rd kyu. A back injury and some knee surgeries halted my practice, and then I moved back home to Texas.

I have been out of Martial Arts training now for 9 years, and this past October, I finally decided to start back. I found an Aikido school that I really enjoy and am "moving right along".

Here's where my dilema lies.
I am having a hard time adjusting to everything I've always been taught, regarding block and counter with attacks. Aikido is so different than anything I've ever studied, and the concept of "emptying my cup" is really hitting home.
For instance...blocking a punch or kick, and then countering with same, has been the "norm" for me. Now, I'm supposed to be more of a "softer" stylist and show compassion and more control...

How does one make this transition easier? How do I go from "punch and kick" to a more "harmonious" balance?

Just a question...
BTW, Nice forum here. I'm having a good time reading some of the threads/posts here. :)

--------------------

Wow, I felt the same once...I studied Krav Maga many years and had to relearn and change.......Aikido is a blessing and a gift to you. There is a balance, a blend, a disapline, when you train in martial arts. Aikido or any art, can be done at any level, soft, medium, hard. It is up to you how you want to practice and apply these techniques. If you are having difficulty with the transition, that is the growth process, you need to learn sensitivity, Aikido will for sure teach you that if you are willing to learn, willing to just feel. All your arts will become better and more part of you if you follow the ladder....good luck and just keep training.........