Gyakuzuki

[Gene Williams]

This is the way I teach beginners gyakuzuki. Maybe it will be useful to someone. Assuming they know how to make a proper, tight fist and have learned hachiji dachi (shizentai dachi), shiko dachi (jigotai dachi), and zenkutus dachi, I start this way: (I'll just talk like I talk in class.)
1) stand in hachiji dachi, then step right foot back into zenkutsu dachi. Hips and shoulders square to front, back leg straight but not locked, front knee bent to where you can only see the tips of your first three toes, front foot points straight ahead (I mean REAL straight ahead), back foot points to one or two o'clock. Back straight, head up, chin down slightly, shoulders relaxed. Breathe normally but from the belly.

2)Right fist at hikite over your floating ribs, right above your hip bone, left fist and arm up in a kamae.

3)shift your back foot and leg into shiko dachi and SIT into the stance. You are now in a shiko dachi at a 45 degree angle with respect to the shomen, looking straight ahead. Your weight should be sinking toward the floor directly beneath you; you should not have your legs splayed out like a deer drinking from a creek so there is tension outward on your feet. Feet should be comfortably gripping the floor. Yes, your legs will get tired and hurt, if they don't, you aren't doing it right.

4)Now, as I or a senior count, "ichi," snap your hips forward into zenkutsu as you punch. Strong kiai! Your forward fist snaps back to your opposite side with just as much speed as your punch. Complete the punch and leave it extended. Back leg is now straight, hips and shoulders square (do not over snap your hips so that your right hip bone points to your left front corner or your back heel rises; it is NEVER correct for your rear heel to come off the floor during a punch. I don't care what you see on the cover of Black Belt Magazine.) Your target is the solar plexus or floating ribs of someone your height. Concentrate on your first two knuckles; you should feel the contact in your mind. Fist is diagonal, not parallel to the floor, this ain't Shotokan. (I usually do this drill after a round of knuckle pushups so they still are aware of those first two knuckles.)

5) Now, when I count "ni," snap your hips sharply back into shiko dachi as you snap the punch back to hikite. REMEMBER, the punch returns to your side with just as much speed as it went out with(this is the biggest mistake I see, even among seniors, floating the fist back to hikite. I yell about this a lot :mad: ) Now, you are back sitting in shiko dachi, zanshin, grip floor, relax...ICHI...repeat...NI...etc.

6) Common mistakes:1. head bobbing up and down. Head stays level; hips stay the same height throughout. 2. Back foot sliding toward rear on punch. Pretend your heel is nailed to the floor (with only one nail so it can turn but not slide). 3. holding your breath...DON'T DO THAT! Exhale from deep in your belly as you kiai. 4. Not enough snap in your hips...I want to see your belt slap your opposite hip! 5. Resting, being lazy. These are full power, full speed punches. Lazy...pushups.

In my dojo, we do this endlessly. First, I do two counts, first count punch, second count, snap punch back. After a bunch of these, I have them do it all one count...usually 50 each side for starters. When they hit the makiwara, I want them to do it just like this until they are brown belts, then we do some other stuff. I also have a 1000 punch drill, but it is gyakuzuki, oi zuki. Yes, they get tired. Yes, I have them have to sit down. Yes, some don't like it. Yes, some leave. But, they will develop a strong gyakuzuki if they stay in my dojo. :bow:

[Gene Williams]

My edit time ran out...I did not mention flaring the elbows...DON'T DO THAT! Your arm should brush your gi as you punch; your arm is the arrow, your body is the bow. The arrow does not lose contact with the bow. If you have students who can't seem to quit flaring, get a bo staff and place the tip on the floor just outside the rear heel (punching side). Hold the bo firmly next to their side with just enough room for them to do a proper punch. If they whack their elbow a few times, they will quit flaring.

[Musubi Dojo]

That was great Gene!

Can you give me more detail on the fist positioning (diagonal)? I've been taught vertical and horizonatel in JMA and CMA, but never diagonal.

Thanks
c

[Gene Williams]

That was great Gene!

Can you give me more detail on the fist positioning (diagonal)? I've been taught vertical and horizonatel in JMA and CMA, but never diagonal.

Thanks
c


In Okinawan ryu, generally speaking, the fist does not rotate all the way parallel to the floor as in Shotokan, TKD, etc. "Diagonal" may have been too vague. Think of your middle knuckle as the pointer and the front wall of the dojo as a clock. All the way parallel, the knuckle points to 12. We stop with the knuckle pointing to one o'clock, possibly 2. It makes for more complete contact with the index finger knuckle, and it tends to hyper-extend the elbow less. Most Okinawan ryu that I know of do this. There may be exceptions that I do not know about.

[Musubi Dojo]

Cool. You learn something new everyday...

Thanks Gene!
c

[TonyU]

Nice post Gene.

[rgoad]

I like the part about having the belt slap across the hip. That's a great way to measure your hip rotation and speed. The feet sinking in is the best of all, though.

[onnie]

Good post Gene. Hopefully your students appreciate what and how you are teaching them. I like the angled punch. In kata our systems punch is parallel to the floor but at solar plex & floating rib height. The one thing I would change in our system is the angel of the fist while blocking and punching. I train this and if I start teaching again will teach this also. Not everyone agrees with me on this but they do not train on the Makiwara ether. Big deference to me. Good job.

Gene, might as well through this at you. I have trained in Seidokan Karate for over 20 years. No other systems other than a workout partner from Oyata Sensei system for a while. I have the chance to start training in Shito-Ryu under my Iai teacher and I am going to do it. The number of kata does not bother me.(my system has 14 karate kata) I want to do this for one, if I was ever to leave my system it would be to train with Masayuki Shimabukuro Sensei. He is a great sensei of Eishin-ryu Iaido and Budo. Two to get a different look and approach to understanding kata. I do not see how I could go wrong with this system. Question to you is what will be the difference in the training between Shito-ryu and my Shorin-ryu based Seidokan?

Thanks much, Train hard and often.
Brandon

[Gene Williams]

Good post Gene. Hopefully your students appreciate what and how you are teaching them. I like the angled punch. In kata our systems punch is parallel to the floor but at solar plex & floating rib height. The one thing I would change in our system is the angel of the fist while blocking and punching. I train this and if I start teaching again will teach this also. Not everyone agrees with me on this but they do not train on the Makiwara ether. Big deference to me. Good job.

Gene, might as well through this at you. I have trained in Seidokan Karate for over 20 years. No other systems other than a workout partner from Oyata Sensei system for a while. I have the chance to start training in Shito-Ryu under my Iai teacher and I am going to do it. The number of kata does not bother me.(my system has 14 karate kata) I want to do this for one, if I was ever to leave my system it would be to train with Masayuki Shimabukuro Sensei. He is a great sensei of Eishin-ryu Iaido and Budo. Two to get a different look and approach to understanding kata. I do not see how I could go wrong with this system. Question to you is what will be the difference in the training between Shito-ryu and my Shorin-ryu based Seidokan?

Thanks much, Train hard and often.
Brandon


Probably the biggest difference will be learning the Naha (Goju ryu) based kata. Most Shito ryu look over the fence to see what the Shorin guys are doing, anyway :D Although some Shito ryu list 50 or so kata, that is misleading. Most Shito ryu keep about 25 in their syllabus, some not that many. Who is your iaido teacher that will be teaching you Shito ryu?

[kumite]

In Okinawan ryu, generally speaking, the fist does not rotate all the way parallel to the floor as in Shotokan, TKD, etc. "Diagonal" may have been too vague. Think of your middle knuckle as the pointer and the front wall of the dojo as a clock. All the way parallel, the knuckle points to 12. We stop with the knuckle pointing to one o'clock, possibly 2. It makes for more complete contact with the index finger knuckle, and it tends to hyper-extend the elbow less. Most Okinawan ryu that I know of do this. There may be exceptions that I do not know about.

We do that punch and the vertical punch(pinky parallel to the floor), aiming to impact on the index knuckle.

Isn't there a story about Itosu teaching the full reverse punch to the school children because he felt it was less dangerous than the three quarter turn punch?

[Gene Williams]

We do that punch and the vertical punch(pinky parallel to the floor), aiming to impact on the index knuckle.

Isn't there a story about Itosu teaching the full reverse punch to the school children because he felt it was less dangerous than the three quarter turn punch?


I've never heard that about Itosu. The vertical fist is "tate zuki," or standing fist. It gives the wrist more support in high punches and certain other attacks. It is found in the kata Chinto. I think Isshin ryu guys may use it more.

[TonyU]

I've never heard that about Itosu. The vertical fist is "tate zuki," or standing fist. It gives the wrist more support in high punches and certain other attacks. It is found in the kata Chinto. I think Isshin ryu guys may use it more.
Small secret, it is found in certain applications of Shorin Ryu.

[Gene Williams]

Small secret, it is found in certain applications of Shorin Ryu.


I just assumed you guys did it. Ya'll are a lot like us. :bow: But, I have seen Isshin ryu do it right after those middle blocks with the back of the forearm. Their fist is already vertical, and I have seen them do rapid combinations after those blocks using tate. It just looks to me like they may do it more than us. I don't know very much about Isshin ryu, other than they do a lot of nice kobudo.

[Ron Davis]

Hey that is the exact same way I teach it...

Thank you Sensei.

[TonyU]

I just assumed you guys did it. Ya'll are a lot like us. :bow: But, I have seen Isshin ryu do it right after those middle blocks with the back of the forearm. Their fist is already vertical, and I have seen them do rapid combinations after those blocks using tate. It just looks to me like they may do it more than us. I don't know very much about Isshin ryu, other than they do a lot of nice kobudo.
Yes, I familiar with Isshin Ryu.
In our case they are literally hidden and only peformed under certain conditions.
One of those secret applications.

[Gene Williams]

Yes, I familiar with Isshin Ryu.
In our case they are literally hidden and only peformed under certain conditions.
One of those secret applications.



OOOOO....secrets :up:

[onnie]

Gene, my Iaido teacher is Masayuku Shimabukuro. The system is Muso Jikiden Eishin-Ryu Iaijutsu. He is the Chairman for the Nippon Kobudo Jikishin Kai USA and International. President of the International Shito-ryu Karate-do Jikishin Kai.

Thanks
Brandon

[Sochin]

See what I miss when I go teach a class and don't get back on the compter??

Good strong basics Gene,
sounds just like Sensei Kim's Shorin-Ji ryu.

[Gene Williams]

Gene, my Iaido teacher is Masayuku Shimabukuro. The system is Muso Jikiden Eishin-Ryu Iaijutsu. He is the Chairman for the Nippon Kobudo Jikishin Kai USA and International. President of the International Shito-ryu Karate-do Jikishin Kai.

Thanks
Brandon


That is a strong group associated, I think, with Kenzo Mabuni's people. You should jump at the chance for that kind of training. Good luck. Gene

[onnie]

I don't how I could go wrong. Well maybe if I didn't do it. I look forward it.
Thanks much for your input. Train hard and often.

Brandon

[Bugeisha]

Great post, Gene. Gyakuzuki is probably my favorite technique, so I always appreciate that kind of input. Interestingly enough, we train with full rotation, but since we hit the target before the arm would be completely extended, we tend to hit at that 3/4 rotation. Well, I do, anyway.

Also, the tatezuki is mostly for high techniques (although it shows up in the middle section occasionally), but the few Isshin Ryu guys I've come across throw just about everything with tate. A fair number of the CMA people I've met do as well.

[RRousselot]

See what I miss when I go teach a class and don't get back on the compter??

Good strong basics Gene,
1) sounds just like Sensei Kim's Shorin-Ji ryu.

:rolleyes:
uhhhh.....more like Kim copied something from older styles like Shorin Ryu and a few others and put it in his "shorinji ryu"......

[Gene Williams]

Here is a drill for gyakuzuki:

Have everyone line up in two lines facing each other. Bow and assume the 45 degree shiko dachi facing each other, each with right foot back. Move up to within striking distance (that is close!) You will need to have a senior go around and make juniors get close enough. You should be "text book" close enough to do a perfect gyakuzuki that would be potentially fight stopping. You will need to count this drill; if you let them do it on their own, the juniors will rush through it or hold back.
Now, alternating sides, each person will do a full speed, full power gyakuzuki doing all the things right I talked about in the first post :D The goal is to strike your partner's gi over the floating ribs (or solar plexus) full power with proper focus (proper focus means mental as well as physical). This has to be done seriously as if you are going to kill your partner. In fact, I want it to look like you are going to kill him. If you do this right, even seniors may flinch. I've had juniors working with seniors fold up without even being hit :laugh: I should be hearing a lot of canvas popping as your punch hits your partner. If you do this right (and I have everyone open their gi afterwards), everyone will have noticeable scratches or red marks on their skin where the gi rubbed from the impact.
Do 25-50 each side (left hand and right hand). Don't count fast. Don't interrupt too much to fix things unless they are glaring. You have to watch the class!! As the number of punches increases, juniors begin to lose focus. Usually a word of reminder (as in, "FOCUS") will be enough.
Seniors will take liberties and actually focus a little deeper and hit each other. I don't care as long as it is controlled (when I say senior, I usually mean nidan and up.)
This drill only works in a serious class. If you have kids running around or a bunch of talking, it doesn't work. This is for a serious class of karateka.
Now, Sensei, you don't need to talk too much, either. I know you have to instruct, but every word you issue other than the count breaks the spirit of the drill. Most sensei talk too much...me, too. :bow:

[rgoad]

That's a very good drill. I like to do this for each type of strike, but it works really well for gyakuzuki. Once your mental focus is right, you can strike uncovered areas and touch the body hair.

[Webmaster]

:rolleyes:
uhhhh.....more like Kim copied something from older styles like Shorin Ryu and a few others and put it in his "shorinji ryu"......
Was that little wise-butt remark really called for? Let's follow the old deal of saying nothing if you can't say something nice.

[RRousselot]

Was that little wise-butt remark really called for? Let's follow the old deal of saying nothing if you can't say something nice.

Most remarks on these boards aren't really called for.
Is what I said un-true?

[Webmaster]

Is what I said un-true?
Was what you said constructive or relavent to the discussion? The answer is NO.

[RRousselot]

Was what you said constructive or relavent to the discussion? The answer is NO.


Why bother to ask a question if you are just going to answer it yourself.
Let me clarify then…….
To me Truscott made it sound like Kim and his so called Shorinji Ryu are/were on some sort of parallel ground with much older styles that had been around and trained that way long before Kim showed up on the scene.
Such is not the case.

[Webmaster]

Why bother to ask a question if you are just going to answer it yourself.
Let me clarify then…….
To me Truscott made it sound like Kim and his so called Shorinji Ryu are/were on some sort of parallel ground with much older styles that had been around and trained that way long before Kim showed up on the scene.
Such is not the case.
Actually it sounded like he was acknowledging that he was also taught in the same manner and that good basics are good basics.

[RRousselot]

Actually it sounded like he was acknowledging that he was also taught in the same manner and that good basics are good basics.




Good strong basics Gene,
sounds just like Sensei Kim's Shorin-Ji ryu.


I disagree.
The way it is worded sounds more like Truscott is trying to imply Kim’s so called Shorinji Ryu is on the same plane as styles founded by karateka with far better credentials and less controversy than Kim.
(Kim has made some pretty dubious/fictitious claims in the past)

[Gene Williams]

There is an excellent book about the battle for Okinawa, "Tennozan," by George Feiffer. It covers from the sinking of the Yamato to the dropping of the A-bomb and the strategy and decison making on both sides covering that period. The battle for Okinawa was grim. A peaceful, decent people living in an island paradise were devastated by events they could have no way of comprehending. Their lives have never been the same. The American presence there since the war, necessary though it is to us, has taken a great toll on the Okinawan way of life. They had the choice of being brutalized and ruled by the Japs, or being devastated and moved forever into the Western military/industrial complex. History is a cruel tyrant.

[RRousselot]

There is an excellent book about the battle for Okinawa, "Tennozan," by George Feiffer. It covers from the sinking of the Yamato to the dropping of the A-bomb and the strategy and decison making on both sides covering that period. The battle for Okinawa was grim. A peaceful, decent people living in an island paradise were devastated by events they could have no way of comprehending. Their lives have never been the same. The American presence there since the war, necessary though it is to us, has taken a great toll on the Okinawan way of life. They had the choice of being brutalized and ruled by the Japs, or being devastated and moved forever into the Western military/industrial complex. History is a cruel tyrant.

Oddly enough there was a documentary on Okinawa last night on TV.
In it they commented about the return of Okinawa in 1972 to Japan.
Many Okinawans didn’t want to revert back to Japanese rule and were more than a little ticked off when it eventually did return to Japanese rule.
When Japanese build something in Okinawa most if not all the top jobs are filled by Japanese, all the money goes back to Japan too.
Okinawan’s are paid one of the lowest, if not the lowest, salaries in Japan.
For economic reasons it is probably a good idea to have US bases in Okinawa to help support the economy, if not then Japan would have to bear the cost of supporting Okinawa’s unemployed.

[Gene Williams]

[For economic reasons it is probably a good idea to have US bases in Okinawa to help support the economy, if not then Japan would have to bear the cost of supporting Okinawa’s unemployed.[/QUOTE]


Yeah, and where would we be in the US without all the Camp Hansen "one year wonders" to fill the pages of Black Belt magazine. :rolleyes:

[RRousselot]

[For economic reasons it is probably a good idea to have US bases in Okinawa to help support the economy, if not then Japan would have to bear the cost of supporting Okinawa’s unemployed.


Yeah, and where would we be in the US without all the Camp Hansen "one year wonders" to fill the pages of Black Belt magazine. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]


I guess we have to ask Kise Fuse since he is the main instructor at Hansen.

[Gene Williams]

Yeah, and where would we be in the US without all the Camp Hansen "one year wonders" to fill the pages of Black Belt magazine. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]


I guess we have to ask Kise Fuse since he is the main instructor at Hansen.[/QUOTE]

Yep. Many a dan has been given through bleary eyes at some of the best bars in Okinawa. :laugh:

[RRousselot]

Yep. Many a dan has been given through bleary eyes at some of the best bars in Okinawa. :laugh:


Oh that is cold man... :laugh:

[Gene Williams]

Here is a drill for gyakuzuki:

Have everyone line up in two lines facing each other. Bow and assume the 45 degree shiko dachi facing each other, each with right foot back. Move up to within striking distance (that is close!) You will need to have a senior go around and make juniors get close enough. You should be "text book" close enough to do a perfect gyakuzuki that would be potentially fight stopping. You will need to count this drill; if you let them do it on their own, the juniors will rush through it or hold back.
Now, alternating sides, each person will do a full speed, full power gyakuzuki doing all the things right I talked about in the first post :D The goal is to strike your partner's gi over the floating ribs (or solar plexus) full power with proper focus (proper focus means mental as well as physical). This has to be done seriously as if you are going to kill your partner. In fact, I want it to look like you are going to kill him. If you do this right, even seniors may flinch. I've had juniors working with seniors fold up without even being hit :laugh: I should be hearing a lot of canvas popping as your punch hits your partner. If you do this right (and I have everyone open their gi afterwards), everyone will have noticeable scratches or red marks on their skin where the gi rubbed from the impact.
Do 25-50 each side (left hand and right hand). Don't count fast. Don't interrupt too much to fix things unless they are glaring. You have to watch the class!! As the number of punches increases, juniors begin to lose focus. Usually a word of reminder (as in, "FOCUS") will be enough.
Seniors will take liberties and actually focus a little deeper and hit each other. I don't care as long as it is controlled (when I say senior, I usually mean nidan and up.)
This drill only works in a serious class. If you have kids running around or a bunch of talking, it doesn't work. This is for a serious class of karateka.
Now, Sensei, you don't need to talk too much, either. I know you have to instruct, but every word you issue other than the count breaks the spirit of the drill. Most sensei talk too much...me, too. :bow:



Alright, back to the drill. For seniors: One line against the wall of the dojo, back foot touching the wall, in 45 degree shiko dachi, rt. foot back ready to punch. (You cannot back up and you are not allowed to move laterally. You are stuck there :D ) Other line across the dojo facing the guys against the wall. You are the walking line. You will walk toward the person across the room from you and launch either a gyakuzuki attack or an oi zuki attack to the body ONLY with either hand. You may attack at any time you feel you are within your striking range. Your targets are solar plexus or floating ribs (accuracy counts...no slop). If he attacks first, you are allowed to block and punch.
You against the wall, you cannot move forward. Your back foot stays against the wall. You may do gyakuzuki at any time you are attacked or think you can pre-empt. You are allowed to block his attack. Your targets are solar plexus and floating ribs.
When the person on the wall gets hit, he leaves and gets in line and is replaced by the one that hit him. (Honor system. Be hard on yourself, person on the wall. Lousy punches don't count even if you hit.)

Now, this drill is done in dead serious. Strive for perfect form like in the initial drill without partners. No bouncing, bobbing, feinting, or other BS. You are just there with your little pile driver spring loaded against the wall.
This does get rough. I've rarely escaped without some serious bruises. Lots of arms will get hit while blocking or punching, knuckles get busted (that is why I should be seeing all of you on the makiwara before class :mad: ), and once in a while someone goes down. But, it is still done with focus. No one below shodan does this drill in my classes. Remember, only body attacks.

The question of grabbing comes up sometimes regarding this drill. I allow my people to grab the gi sleeve or wrist of the opponent to punch. I noticed when Burgermeister and Harada ran this drill at the last seminar, we were not allowed to grab. I suppose that is up to each sensei. I like to grab :) Have fun.

[Bugeisha]

Thanks again, Gene!

[poetic misjustice]

Nice post gene. I'm afraid to say i have been guilty of all of these mistakes, i've tried to correct them and have succeeded on many counts but my rear foot sliding back during the punch was the hardest i've only solved that problem in the past month. Shortening my stance about an inch really helped of course i don't recommend it to everyone, most people i know get told off for having a stance too short, i'll try your way as well see if that is as effective, thanks again.

[Gene Williams]

Nice post gene. I'm afraid to say i have been guilty of all of these mistakes, i've tried to correct them and have succeeded on many counts but my rear foot sliding back during the punch was the hardest i've only solved that problem in the past month. Shortening my stance about an inch really helped of course i don't recommend it to everyone, most people i know get told off for having a stance too short, i'll try your way as well see if that is as effective, thanks again.


If your rear foot is sliding backward while punching in 45 degree shiko dachi, you either have your feet too wide or you are not "sitting" into the stance enough, or both. Your toes should be gripping the floor. You should feel like you are sitting on a low stool. When you feel your rear foot press into the floor as you snap your hips forward, it should feel like it is pushing down into the floor, not back or to the outside. Stance width is usually determined by kneeling down with one knee toward the opposite foot. Place one fist between your knee and the opposite foot so that the fist joins the knee to your foot (we say "shank plus fist"). This is a rough measure, but it works for most people. Back up and place your rear foot against the wall so it can't slide; do the punches and work backward from the way it feels to perfecting your stance. :bow:

[rgoad]

The stance information is really good. Is the Shito-ryu gyakuzuki dachi more narrow than Wado? We used the same 'measurement' as you describe with the knee-fist-heel, but we used two fists from knee laterally to the heel, which was in line with the knelt knee so that the Achilles tendon of the front foot was even with the knee cap of tha back knee when kneeling.

How much knee flexion is there? I like a very soft and flexed knee in front and back with a soft hip so it can turn quickly. This seems to help with making the pressure of the foot be more straight down to the floor than on the edge, heel, toes, etc. It also allows quick movement of the foot to facilitate stepping to the next technique, e.g. Seisan, or Chinto.

Is this at all like what you are talking about?

[Gene Williams]

The stance information is really good. Is the Shito-ryu gyakuzuki dachi more narrow than Wado? We used the same 'measurement' as you describe with the knee-fist-heel, but we used two fists from knee laterally to the heel, which was in line with the knelt knee so that the Achilles tendon of the front foot was even with the knee cap of tha back knee when kneeling.

How much knee flexion is there? I like a very soft and flexed knee in front and back with a soft hip so it can turn quickly. This seems to help with making the pressure of the foot be more straight down to the floor than on the edge, heel, toes, etc. It also allows quick movement of the foot to facilitate stepping to the next technique, e.g. Seisan, or Chinto.

Is this at all like what you are talking about?

I just stood up and did the measurement by assuming my shiko dachi, then dropping my knee and measuring. For me, it is actually a 'skosh more than one fist/shank. It is not exact, but a good yardstick.
Re: flexion. Well, you are in shiko dachi at a 45 degree angle (gyakuzuki dachi; sochin dachi). Knees are bent and you are sitting into the stance. Hips should be "soft" and you should be able to move easily. When I am in the stance, I am conscious of the "navel-to-anus" imaginary line linking everything up to the hara. Belt knot should "feel" forward. When I punch from this position, I always want to feel like I am "sinking" into the punch and that my "center" is penetrating his center. I know this is all pretty impressionistic and inexact, but karate is a lot "feel," especially at senior levels.

Note: A Goju guy taught me this: When teaching students Seisan and Sanchin, tie a belt to their obi knot and exert a constant pulling pressure forward as they step in sanchin. It keeps them aware of the hara and the hips. The feet tend to conform. My sensei used to touch the tip of a bo firmly in the small of my back and push forward as I did the kata. Another of my sensei just punched us in the gut every step until we figured it out. I've done all three. :)

[Jeff C.]

At the risk of thread drift, I just want to say that I had a fascinatingly similar conversation with a former Olympic dressage rider, who is now teaching others this ancient battlefield art (the dressage elite in their little spandex riding apparel and English tack look at me like I am nuts when I point this out to them).

You will hear many of the same things said of expert horsemanship that you hear from experts such as Gene. If you ever get a chance to talk to someone about dressage, I highly recommend you do so. It gives another angle to some of the same postures, movements, and very subtle applications of force.

Jeff Cook

[Gene Williams]

At the risk of thread drift, I just want to say that I had a fascinatingly similar conversation with a former Olympic dressage rider, who is now teaching others this ancient battlefield art (the dressage elite in their little spandex riding apparel and English tack look at me like I am nuts when I point this out to them).

You will hear many of the same things said of expert horsemanship that you hear from experts such as Gene. If you ever get a chance to talk to someone about dressage, I highly recommend you do so. It gives another angle to some of the same postures, movements, and very subtle applications of force.

Jeff Cook


:eek: Please don't call me an "expert." :D You remember how everybody used to say, "Old so-and-so is a karate expert...he'll kick your butt." :laugh:
Just "senior" will be fine..... :up: or, you can call me "Most Eminent Cosmic Soke Grand Master of Ultimate Ki Whupass." Either one wil be alright. :t2:

[s.henson]

"Most Eminent Cosmic Soke Grand Master of Ultimate Ki Whupass."

Next Christmas you're getting a belt with this embroidered on it.

[Gene Williams]

"Most Eminent Cosmic Soke Grand Master of Ultimate Ki Whupass."

Next Christmas you're getting a belt with this embroidered on it.

How many pushups do you think you can do? :) How long can you sit in shiko dachi in the corner? :up:

Dr. Soke Gene Williams
Williams-Ryu Kara-Ju-Iai-Te-Do

[Jeff C.]

Well Gene, I'm pretty good, you are better, AND you are older - that makes you a senior expert old man master of the Supreme Way of Gene - a much loftier distinction than "Most Eminent Cosmic Soke Grand Master of Ultimate Ki Whupass."

Besides, your expert status is the ONLY reason we put up with your crustiness! ;) Just kidding, old man....

Jeff Cook

[Gene Williams]

How many pushups do you think you can do? :) How long can you sit in shiko dachi in the corner? :up:

Dr. Soke Gene Williams
Williams-Ryu Kara-Ju-Iai-Te-Do

Cliff, can't you behave? I am going to exert my ki powers and melt your computer...ok here goes, uhhhggghhhh!!!! Ahhhhhhhh!!!!!! Unnnnnn....oops. :o

[rgoad]

...tie a belt to their obi knot and exert a constant pulling pressure forward as they step in sanchin. It keeps them aware of the hara and the hips. The feet tend to conform. My sensei used to touch the tip of a bo firmly in the small of my back and push forward as I did the kata. Another of my sensei just punched us in the gut every step until we figured it out. I've done all three. :)

I have used an automobile on a flat surface that is out of gear, break off. As if you were going to push start it, stand behind in your stance with your hip against the aft bumper, trunck, hatch, etc. Keep your body verticle and no touch with the hands. Step forward with your hips sealed to the trunk and move the car with hip rotation and body shift only. I actually thought this up for Tai Chi to keep me rooted as I move forward. I have to stay slow so the automobile does not gain enough inertia to roll on its own. Don't lean on it either.

[Jeff C.]

Take it easy there old man. Too much forceful ki exhertion might put you in Depends before your time!

Jeff Cook

[rgoad]

Take it easy there old man. Too much forceful ki exhertion might put you in Depends before your time!I think he voids so often on other folks there is very little left over his underoos can't soak up...

[Gene Williams]

I think he voids so often on other folks there is very little left over his underoos can't soak up...

Now, I hope you think better of me than that. :wink2: Besides, they walk where I am pissing.

[Jeff C.]

I think he voids so often on other folks there is very little left over his underoos can't soak up...

Richard, I think that might be slightly over the line....

Jeff Cook

[Gene Williams]

I have used an automobile on a flat surface that is out of gear, break off. As if you were going to push start it, stand behind in your stance with your hip against the aft bumper, trunck, hatch, etc. Keep your body verticle and no touch with the hands. Step forward with your hips sealed to the trunk and move the car with hip rotation and body shift only. I actually thought this up for Tai Chi to keep me rooted as I move forward. I have to stay slow so the automobile does not gain enough inertia to roll on its own. Don't lean on it either.


Well, then, let's get back to gyakuzuki. :)

[2groggy]

.... Pretend your heel is nailed to the floor (with only one nail so it can turn but not slide)...
Is there any reason that one pivots the back foot on the heel rather than on the ball?

[Gene Williams]

Is there any reason that one pivots the back foot on the heel rather than on the ball?


Pivot on the ball. I meant to say pretend your foot is nailed to the floor so that it can turn. Sorry. Thanks for catching that. Gene

But, don't let your heel come up. :bow:

[rgoad]

Now, I hope you think better of me than that. :wink2: Besides, they walk where I am pissing.Now THAT'S awesome.

[Gene Williams]

Now THAT'S awesome.

Actually, it was kinda' ugly...it is the scotch. So, workin' on that gyakuzuki? :)

[rgoad]

I've re-read this thread a couple of times. I may be missing if you described the way the shoulders are linked to the hips. Are they absolutely square, or is there a slight over rotation of the shoulder both forward and aft?

(Edited for Cutty Sark influence)

[Nthdegree]

Hi Gene, interesting thread. I was wondering if you do any sort of impact training? also, there are some that would argue about the heel down philosophy. It's an odd thing that I always felt as if my heel went down on impact for a split second, but after (for the first time) seeing myself on video, I see that I actually do have the heel up.
looking into it a bit more, I realize this isn't a bad thing....and in fact more than a few Okinawan karate styles punch this way. It seems the styles most affected by Japanese influence more often have the heel down rule. ...but thats just a guess.

there are exceptions.
some Japanese styles with heel up philosophy...
as described here: Ashihara karate
http://www.ashiharakarate.org/html/powerful_punching_.html

also, Kimura-ha Shukokai ShitoRyu.


just some thoughts to fuel the thread.
-Ed

[Gene Williams]

I've re-read this thread a couple of times. I may be missing if you described the way the shoulders are linked to the hips. Are they absolutely square, or is there a slight over rotation of the shoulder both forward and aft?

(Edited for Cutty Sark influence)

When in shiko dachi ready to punch, shoulders are as they always are in relation to the stance (back straight, but not rigid, shoulders over hips, hips and shoulders are a unit). On punching, I want juniors to have the shoulders square to the front when the punch is completed. This is never wrong, but at some point I start getting them to consciously lower the punching shoulder a bit and rotate it ever so slightly forward into the punch. Remember, this is gyakuzuki; I stress the shoulder stuff more on oi zuki. Shoulders over hips, etc. enables the student to develop speed in the punch both on punching and returning the punch. "Punch with your hips, punch with your hips." If I had a nickel for every time I said this I'd be rich.


Ed, about the heel. Yes, that gets talked about some. I was always taught that the heel may "float" a bit in the punch, but never raise up. Higoshi was serious enough about it to walk around with a boken and whack us if the heel rose too much. Kuniba did not like heel to come up, either, in kata or in fundamentals training. Again, I am talking about teaching beginners and junior fundamentals. Seniors, after they know how to do it fundamentally right, may make some adjustments. I don't fuss as long as they aren't too weird.
I personally feel much stronger and rooted with heel down, always. I feel like it is part of my punch. If my heel comes up, it is usually because I am lunging or stepping through.

[Gene Williams]

When in shiko dachi ready to punch, shoulders are as they always are in relation to the stance (back straight, but not rigid, shoulders over hips, hips and shoulders are a unit). On punching, I want juniors to have the shoulders square to the front when the punch is completed. This is never wrong, but at some point I start getting them to consciously lower the punching shoulder a bit and rotate it ever so slightly forward into the punch. Remember, this is gyakuzuki; I stress the shoulder stuff more on oi zuki. Shoulders over hips, etc. enables the student to develop speed in the punch both on punching and returning the punch. "Punch with your hips, punch with your hips." If I had a nickel for every time I said this I'd be rich.


Ed, about the heel. Yes, that gets talked about some. I was always taught that the heel may "float" a bit in the punch, but never raise up. Higoshi was serious enough about it to walk around with a boken and whack us if the heel rose too much. Kuniba did not like heel to come up, either, in kata or in fundamentals training. Again, I am talking about teaching beginners and junior fundamentals. Seniors, after they know how to do it fundamentally right, may make some adjustments. I don't fuss as long as they aren't too weird.
I personally feel much stronger and rooted with heel down, always. I feel like it is part of my punch. If my heel comes up, it is usually because I am lunging or stepping through.


MY edit time ran out. Ed, yes I do some impact training, makiwara and heavy bag. Years ago we fought with bogu in the dojo under my first instructor. For me, there is no question that I have more power with heel down.
Now, I train with a guy from Tani ha Shito ryu who actually studied under Kimura. His kata is just like mine (pretty much) heel always down. But, in kumite, he keeps heel up in kamae (so do I some). It is characteristic of Shuko kai to emphasize the speed side of the speed/power deal. I don't think they should be separated. Anyway, for seniors, nothing is chiseled in stone. For juniors, I want it done JUST like I tell them to do it. which is like I was taught.

[Nthdegree]

I was curious about what type impact training styles currently do because I was a student of Kimura sensei for 4 years in the late 80's. his power generation methods were still evolving at the time, but I've never seen anyone hit harder since. sadly, Kimura sensei passed away in '95 and video of him is scarce. seminars are still given from his senior students. there is one next weekend I'll be checking out in NJ: http://www.shukokai.com/PopupPages/WCIC.htm

The benefits of having someone hold an impact pad is the feedback. it shouldn't be a push, nor a lean, nor should it be deadlocked. the impact should feel like a deep impulse or shock to the person holding the pad. on a suspended bag, the effect is the bag folding causing it to 'jump' as oppossed to it swinging.

I recommend checking a seminar out someday...good stuff on power gen as it relates to fundamental techniques. The best part, is that the concepts can be incorporated into kata practice without changing kata. :wink2:

[Gene Williams]

I was curious about what type impact training styles currently do because I was a student of Kimura sensei for 4 years in the late 80's. his power generation methods were still evolving at the time, but I've never seen anyone hit harder since. sadly, Kimura sensei passed away in '95 and video of him is scarce. seminars are still given from his senior students. there is one next weekend I'll be checking out in NJ: http://www.shukokai.com/PopupPages/WCIC.htm

The benefits of having someone hold an impact pad is the feedback. it shouldn't be a push, nor a lean, nor should it be deadlocked. the impact should feel like a deep impulse or shock to the person holding the pad. on a suspended bag, the effect is the bag folding causing it to 'jump' as oppossed to it swinging.

I recommend checking a seminar out someday...good stuff on power gen as it relates to fundamental techniques. The best part, is that the concepts can be incorporated into kata practice without changing kata. :wink2:

Yep. Ditto on the bag jumping. I've never done much work with pads/someone holding. Did you ever run into Robert Burgermeister while under Kimura? Tani trained under Kosei Kuniba back in the old Seishin KAN/Motobu ha Karate do days, before Seishin Kai. He was older than Shogo Kuniba, but they were dojo mates, at least for a time. Interesting history.

[Nthdegree]

can't say that I have met Mr. Burgermeister...but since Kimura's dojo was in NJ and I'm in Mass...we only drove down one weekend a month to train. sometimes Kimura sensei would visit our dojo. some tested, but I never even tested for ni-dan. never saw the point since I was shodan in Goju why bother being grandfathered into a ShitoRyu system. young-n-dumb...kindof kicking myself now...being older and more nostalgic, would have been nice to have it on paper.

I don't know much about Tani's history...it would be interesting to read up on him. I do know a couple of incorrect things which have floated around in forums. Tani sensei is the originator of Shukokai and also the pioneer of the 'double hip' term/technique. (this is also the 'door hinge' idea which is presented on the video: http://www.peterconsterdine.com/protection-publications/videos.htm#powerstrike ). Kimura sensei furthered this study of power generation and keyed the term 'left gear'....and there are no videos with anyone demonstrating this that I'm aware of.

anyway...sorry to diverge a bit. on topic: I think the main stress of where the weight goes is universally agreed it should be on the balls of the feet. There are styles that have their heel up like wearing womans shoes...and other styles you could barely slide a piece of paper under the heel. it's all good, but I agree with heel down for beginners.

one last thing though: In sparring, you need to be able to spring back quickly. self defence you are going to the side, forward or down. Those differences in application might give a clue as to how much heel people need up.

[Redcat]

At the risk of thread drift, I just want to say that I had a fascinatingly similar conversation with a former Olympic dressage rider, who is now teaching others this ancient battlefield art (the dressage elite in their little spandex riding apparel and English tack look at me like I am nuts when I point this out to them).

You will hear many of the same things said of expert horsemanship that you hear from experts such as Gene. If you ever get a chance to talk to someone about dressage, I highly recommend you do so. It gives another angle to some of the same postures, movements, and very subtle applications of force.

Jeff Cook

Wow, what a surprise to see this post. I used to "do" dressage (among other horsey things) and when I started karate, it was hard not to see the similarities. (In fact, they amuse me to no end sometimes.) A very basic similarity - you ride tests that are similar to kata, that increase in scope and difficulty as you rise through the ranks. The tests train the horse in basic movements that have higher purpose, including warfare applications (in addition to producing an obedient and athletic animal).

I would ask who you spoke with in Florida, but that could be almost anyone, as that's a popular wintering spot for the horsey set.

Sorry to contribute to thread drift. Back to gyakuzuki!

[Jeff C.]

Glad I could suck you into my evil little thread-drift world, Lesley! ;) I do not remember his name at the moment; he was an older French gentleman who travels widely giving seminars.

Jeff Cook

[TonyU]

Wow Ed,
I started my training in Shukokai in the 80's under Kimura when his dodjo was in Hackensack NJ.
Is that whe you were coming down?
I only stayed with him for a year, though.
What a coincidence.

[Nthdegree]

wow...that is a coincidence, yes it was at the hackensack dojo. The years (for me) were 84 or 85 to 89. how about you?

[TonyU]

87 to 88.

I probably was there when you came for a visit.
I just don't remember much except for Kimura and some of the higher dans that used to kick my rear end.

[Nthdegree]

wow...this thread is screwed... lol sorry.

cool. you probably were there. and about my age too. Our dojo was originally O. Goju since the 60's and changed to kimura-ha shukokai mid-eighties. I was one of the BB's part of the Dan McCook entourage. pretty crowded dojo most of the time. sometimes the best classes were the after class classes. :toast:

sorry to hose the thread people...as if you want to hear strangers reminice. lol it's as exciting as watching olympic curling....

[TonyU]

Well Ed, I moderate this section so the hell with them. :D
Unless of course Robert or Ted complain. They out rank me.

A little story, I was training for about a month or so and Kimura sensei was concentrating on the double hip twist.
It was a fristrating night since noone was getting it. He call me out ot the forn of the class and had me try it.
He practicality jumped over me and yelled "YES, that's it, that's how it should be done."
For a second I thought I was in trouble.

Recently I managed to get my hands Kimura on DVD judging a tournament in the late 70's.
I'm not sure but I believe I also have him competing also.

[Sochin]

No fear from me - I like thread drift!

There is a tradition on one forum I'm on that we had to take a pirate name and if we 'pirated' the topic into a drift, we have to sign with our pirate name... It gets more use than my real name!

[Gene Williams]

No fear from me - I like thread drift!

There is a tradition on one forum I'm on that we had to take a pirate name and if we 'pirated' the topic into a drift, we have to sign with our pirate name... It gets more use than my real name!


How cute. :)

[Nthdegree]

does the pirate name get assigned? or do I get to pick my own?

I'd pick: "RareMAfootageMediaPirate" lol

[Gene Williams]

I want to be, "Supiratimpei." :D

[Jeff C.]

I want to be, "Supiratimpei." :D

Heavy on the "tim" part - as in "TIMMMAAYYY!!!"

Jeff Cook