View Full Version : techniques in kata
Hi everyone. I was wondering if anyone had a good source on researching bunki or "hidden" techniques in kata.
I'm having trouble with sensei's where i train as they don't agree with my interpretations and they really imposs their own. I don't mean to offend or disrespect them, but i find their ideas alittle unrealistic and well "silly".
I may of course be totally wrong and this is why i want to research. But i don't even know where to start since my sensei left and i have been left with an instructor i don't really agree with.
In kata i am seeing and practicing throws and joint locks, takedowns and "deformed" versions of basic technique. To me it all suggests that i best try to keep my karate as versatile as possible. Try to be creative with how i use basic technique. I think perhaps kata (in some cases) is saying that you can't train for everything so you have to learn to improvise.
I don't know it is becomming frustrating. it feels similar to saying a word a million times and having it lose all meaning. My kata is like that.
I love karate but sometimes i hate it, due to lack of understanding i guess.
Anyway is there a good book or at least a website, i would appresiate any veiws or advice.
thanks
Well I had this long post about disrespecting your sensei, then I saw that you'r original sensei has left.
There are no books tat really address the it because it can vary from school to school or ryuha.
Also the problem with many books that it may not be specific to your style. All it can do is give you some ideas.
Right now I'm reading The Way of Kata, A Comprehensive Guide to Deciphering Martial Applications by Lawrence Kane & Kris Wilder.
It is Goju based but it does a pretty good job of explaining how to decipher certain techniques in kata.
Keep in mind that some bunkais are not applicable in todays world.
Learn it first, learn how it's applied then it can give you an insight how may be modified to work against todays type of attacks.
Good luck.
I've read "The Way of Kata" and found it to be very enlightening.
Couple that with Mr. McCarthy's Bubishi and I think you have a
pretty good starting point.
What I liked about Kane and Wilder's book, is although they are
Goju practitioners, the theories behind bunkai is explained and can
be applied to any kata.
I know there are a lot of people who don't agree with reverse
engineering, but when you have no one else to turn to, what are
you going to do?
Peace
Gene Williams
03-12-2006, 15:42
Holy Deja vu, Batman!!!! :eek:
Hi TonyU i looked in vein for this long post of yours about disrespecting one's sensei.
So i'll start by saying i mean no sensei any disrespect. I respect their patients, ability, rank and generally i respect them as i respect everyone else. I'll tell you though it isn't good changing sensei like this. It's like i am not really apart of his class. anyway,
On the topic of that book. I'll have to hunt it down. "the way of kata", sounds about what i'm looking for. Especailly as the style i train in is one of the goju/shotokan mixtures. And the book got a second recomendation. Thanks Ray
I know there are a lot of people who don't agree with reverse
engineering, but when you have no one else to turn to, what are
you going to do?
Even when we have someone to turn to, we need to learn how to figure things out for ourselves. We can't be given all the asnwers.
Although it is important to have someone correct us if we're wrong.
Hi TonyU i looked in vein for this long post of yours about disrespecting one's sensei.
I didn't post it. I had edited my post.
Gene Williams
03-13-2006, 08:55
Hi everyone. I was wondering if anyone had a good source on researching bunki or "hidden" techniques in kata.
I'm having trouble with sensei's where i train as they don't agree with my interpretations and they really imposs their own. I don't mean to offend or disrespect them, but i find their ideas alittle unrealistic and well "silly".
I may of course be totally wrong and this is why i want to research. But i don't even know where to start since my sensei left and i have been left with an instructor i don't really agree with.
In kata i am seeing and practicing throws and joint locks, takedowns and "deformed" versions of basic technique. To me it all suggests that i best try to keep my karate as versatile as possible. Try to be creative with how i use basic technique. I think perhaps kata (in some cases) is saying that you can't train for everything so you have to learn to improvise.
I don't know it is becomming frustrating. it feels similar to saying a word a million times and having it lose all meaning. My kata is like that.
I love karate but sometimes i hate it, due to lack of understanding i guess.
Anyway is there a good book or at least a website, i would appresiate any veiws or advice.
thanks
Hi, Addy. You may be getting ahead of yourself a bit. I teach very little bunkai when a student first learns a kata. I want them to learn the proper way to do the kata. Since kata are "text book" stances, movement, and techniques, the actual applications may look very different from the moves as done in the "picture perfect" kata version. This is not always so, but it holds true much of the time. If a student focuses on bunkai too soon, the applications play into the kata performance too much.
Kata is always done the same way. It is the original score written by the composer. Variations and innovations come much later. Learn the basic bunkai ( most, not all, will be obvious). As time passes, you will be shown some others and figure some out yourself. Gene
Adam, Tony and Gene are on the money. Remember it is someone's interpretation of bunki in the kata. You should learn you teachers bunki because he is your teacher. That does not mean you can not have your own interpretation of kata as your knowledge grows. Gene is 100 % right as to "not to get ahead of yourself". Learn the basics of kata. As time goes on so will the light bulbs. A fellow black belt asked our Soke as to the secrets to a kata. The reply was "no secrets, just do"
Good luck. Train hard and often.
Brandon
It is the original score written by the composer. Variations and innovations come much later. Gene
Thank you for this quote. It really stands out to me.
As for getting ahead of myself, i never really thought of that before. My picture is i have been practicing karate for 3 years, and in that 3 years i have learnt 4 kata. I don't know if that is slow or not and to be honest, i don't care.
Previously in the dojo an instructor had people split up into pairs. We were given 15 minutes to create a bunkai for a few techniques found in any kata. Everyone practiced a very text book type bunkai. But my younger brother and i saw something diffrent.
Rather than starting in a perfect stance like one would in kata, we began in a very relax and natural fighting position. The bunkai was for the begining movements in "saifa" (if anyone is familiar with that kata).
All that we did was a wrist manipulation whilst lowering stance in order to compromise the opponents balance, and a backfist strike to drop him.
All the students were suprised, everyong clapped. The sensei there gave us credit, but other than that i am not incouraged to interprete movments myself.
In any case i'm looking for that book, and i'm holding on to the advice given. Thank you people.
Rather than starting in a perfect stance like one would in kata, we began in a very relax and natural fighting position. The bunkai was for the begining movements in "saifa" (if anyone is familiar with that kata).
All that we did was a wrist manipulation whilst lowering stance in order to compromise the opponents balance, and a backfist strike to drop him.
All the students were suprised, everyong clapped. The sensei there gave us credit, but other than that i am not incouraged to interprete movments myself.
Here's what I see in the first move of Saifa. (I'm not claiming that it's official scriptures or anything)
1) An attacker grabs my right wrist with their left hand. I use my left hand to cover and grab theirs.
2) Step waaay back into shiko, pulling their arm with you, and hyper-extend their elbow over your torso. Break the arm if you can.
3) Opponent throws a right haymaker, block with left and then trap one or both of the opponents arms under your right elbow.
4) Forcing the right elbow (and their trapped arm) down pulls their face into your right fist for a 1" uppercut and right backfist
That's just one example though. Bunkai range from the basic "if it looks like a block then its a block and if it looks like a punch its a punch" to the advanced stuff where the chamber hand does a hidden block and grabs while the "blocking" arm breaks.
Oh yeah, and I gotta get that book too.
There have been a couple of threads that have addressed this topic. This is one. (http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=14029&page=1&pp=20) The thing I think Gene was trying to say, and if I'm wrong we will all know about it :laugh: , is that there are features of the individual movements and techniques that transcend the stuff you are doing with your hands or feet. These things are presented in the beginning as the stances and basic foot work, but everyone thinks that is not the technique and trys to learn the meaning of the strike, etc.
That being said if you will give a little time to the stance and footwork, it's OK to start trying to learn the 'bunkai' of the hands and feet. Then try to apply it. After a while, maybe years, you are going to find out that it won't work. At that very point go back to the stance and foot work and you'll find out why.
CosimoTe
03-14-2006, 16:50
I think there is something to be said for having the passion for your art show itself in the desire to learn it in greater depth. I, however would not fault an instructor for having you stick to his interpretation of a bunkai anymore than I would fault a algebra teacher for not teaching you calculus, presuming your sensei is competent.
Learn the kata as it is in its form, and understand that there is not one bunkai for a given series of moves. The kata will produce power focus and proper form. Concntrate on this first. The instructed bunkai will teach one way of utilizing the kata principles. You then have a proper foundation upon which to develop what you believe a bunkai should be.
Here's what I see in the first move of Saifa. (I'm not claiming that it's official scriptures or anything)
1) An attacker grabs my right wrist with their left hand. I use my left hand to cover and grab theirs.
2) Step waaay back into shiko, pulling their arm with you, and hyper-extend their elbow over your torso. Break the arm if you can.
3) Opponent throws a right haymaker, block with left and then trap one or both of the opponents arms under your right elbow.
4) Forcing the right elbow (and their trapped arm) down pulls their face into your right fist for a 1" uppercut and right backfist
.
i can see that. where u blocked a haymaker i grabbed the arm and continued to control the imaginary opponent.
The bunkai we were taught was.
1. you are standing there with your feet together with one hand by your side making a fist and the other hand pressed against that.
that is the part i couldn't grasp, no one stands like that. And where u blocked a haymaker the guys that teach me now explain a pointless slap, like on the wrist or something.
this move in this kata is just one example, there are many in this kata, and the others are full of movments that i've been given weird bunkais for. So that book really interests me,,even if it has no bunkai.
There have been a couple of threads that have addressed this topic. This is one. (http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=14029&page=1&pp=20) The thing I think Gene was trying to say, and if I'm wrong we will all know about it :laugh: , is that there are features of the individual movements and techniques that transcend the stuff you are doing with your hands or feet. These things are presented in the beginning as the stances and basic foot work, but everyone thinks that is not the technique and trys to learn the meaning of the strike, etc.
That being said if you will give a little time to the stance and footwork, it's OK to start trying to learn the 'bunkai' of the hands and feet. Then try to apply it. After a while, maybe years, you are going to find out that it won't work. At that very point go back to the stance and foot work and you'll find out why.
i learn my kata from the ground up..and when i teach it to children or biginners i teach it from the ground up,,stances and foot work first..like building a house or something...foundations first. On that note i have been credited for teaching early kata.
Anyway thanks for your post, it is good advise.
I think there is something to be said for having the passion for your art show itself in the desire to learn it in greater depth. I, however would not fault an instructor for having you stick to his interpretation of a bunkai anymore than I would fault a algebra teacher for not teaching you calculus, presuming your sensei is competent.
Learn the kata as it is in its form, and understand that there is not one bunkai for a given series of moves. The kata will produce power focus and proper form. Concntrate on this first. The instructed bunkai will teach one way of utilizing the kata principles. You then have a proper foundation upon which to develop what you believe a bunkai should be.
Hello. Ok even though i see little resemblence between algerbra and karate what u said makes alot of sense. Also thanks for your subtle compliment.
I wasn't or didn't mean to fault my instructor, more than i mean to express that i am not leaving his dojo feeling like i've learnt something.
i really need to learn how to quote 2 or 3 people in the 1 post.
Addy,
"Way of Kata" is an absolutely excellent resource. It's well worth the money.
For another source, go to Iain Abernathy's site and download his free "Introduction to Applied Karate" e-book. Then read some of the articles.
http://www.iainabernethy.com/
This will give you a start. Pay attention to one of the points Iain makes- that you must have the kata moves developed well enough that the principle in the move doesn't fly out the window when pressured.
Iain is a somewhat controversial person because he's killing some sacred cows. However, the book "Way of Kata" is causing some of his detractors to be quiet, because the rules and principles analyzed in the book come from Chojun Miyagi. These principles were not made up by Mr. Kane. They've been available in a Japanes book for years. This is the first time they're printed in English. Iain's approach to bunkai utilizes many of these principles, so he is taking a traditional approach.
If you look on his BB, you'll find the author of "Way of Kata" is one of the moderators on the site.
Nothing wrong with learning these ideas and principles early, just don't rush it.
Rather than starting in a perfect stance like one would in kata, we began in a very relax and natural fighting position. The bunkai was for the begining movements in "saifa" (if anyone is familiar with that kata).
All that we did was a wrist manipulation whilst lowering stance in order to compromise the opponents balance, and a backfist strike to drop him.
All the students were suprised, everyong clapped. The sensei there gave us credit, but other than that i am not incouraged to interprete movments myself.
Sigh . . . . and you'd never been shown that bunkai? It's one of the basic variations I teach. The first bunkai shown are against a punch and a grab.
There's also a bunkai that bends the oponent over before doing the backfist. If you drop to a knee, you can plant his face into the floor.
Also, besides the book listed in the earlier post, you may want to read "5 years, One Kata".
Sam, I am reading Bill Burger's "5 Years One Kata" now. It is an excellent book for anybody in the striking arts. It took me nearly two weeks to get it through Barnes and Noble but well worth the wait.
Gene Williams
04-20-2006, 19:05
Addy,
"Way of Kata" is an absolutely excellent resource. It's well worth the money.
For another source, go to Iain Abernathy's site and download his free "Introduction to Applied Karate" e-book. Then read some of the articles.
http://www.iainabernethy.com/
This will give you a start. Pay attention to one of the points Iain makes- that you must have the kata moves developed well enough that the principle in the move doesn't fly out the window when pressured.
Iain is a somewhat controversial person because he's killing some sacred cows. However, the book "Way of Kata" is causing some of his detractors to be quiet, because the rules and principles analyzed in the book come from Chojun Miyagi. These principles were not made up by Mr. Kane. They've been available in a Japanes book for years. This is the first time they're printed in English. Iain's approach to bunkai utilizes many of these principles, so he is taking a traditional approach.
If you look on his BB, you'll find the author of "Way of Kata" is one of the moderators on the site.
Nothing wrong with learning these ideas and principles early, just don't rush it.
Abernathy's stuff is solid, standard bunkai to the Pinan kata. But, it isn't new. People seem to be always rediscovering the wheel; Shorin and Shito ryu have been doing these very bunkai for years. There are a few variations, but most seniors in these ryu practice bunkai in very much the same way. What sacred cows is he killing?
Abernathy's stuff is solid, standard bunkai to the Pinan kata. But, it isn't new. People seem to be always rediscovering the wheel; Shorin and Shito ryu have been doing these very bunkai for years. There are a few variations, but most seniors in these ryu practice bunkai in very much the same way. What sacred cows is he killing?
:laugh:
Welcome back Gene.
:laugh:
Welcome back Gene.The Circle is now complete.
Twice. :D
Gene Williams
04-20-2006, 20:31
Maybe I should re-invent myself :D I am going to write 100 times, "I will not make political comments or engage in political discussions because Robert will kick my butt." Maybe that will help. :o
In the Western Michigan Tae Kwon Do family of dojangs, our GM, Monte Beghtol, 9th Dan will often ask, when observing someone go through forms, "What do you think it represents?" and patiently wait while they offer an interpretation. Then he will either nod and walk away or else point out, very politely, an alternate view. This he will also demonstrate. And it will nearly always turn out a notch above one's own.
I remember this one point with a spear-hand going up the center bar followed by a spin with the palm turning behind one's own back over the kidney. I just didn't see the point in that. Monty demonstrated, "Come at me with a middle punch". And I did. His spear hand came in as one would expect, then he grabbed my punching arm at the wrist/forearm...and executing that exact same 360 spin...put me in a lock that would have either nosed me into the ground or broken my arm had he been forceful. And in his usual manner he said, "That's one possible interpretation. Think about it. See if you can come up with others."
His teaching style in these matters inspires us all very well, me in particular. It is 180 degrees away from one other teacher that I had for about a year. Directly under Monte, my personal teacher, a 6th Dan, takes this very same entirely impirical approach to the art. If we can make it work, then it works. And if we can't, then we need to look at it a different way. It's a continuous experiment...a live art. Anything frozen and learnt by rote is not an art to my way of thinking. I feel very fortunate to be part of this school.
Gan Uesli Starling
Kalamazoo Chapter
http://wmtkd.us
Western Michigan Tae Kwon Do
Abernathy's stuff is solid, standard bunkai to the Pinan kata. But, it isn't new. People seem to be always rediscovering the wheel; Shorin and Shito ryu have been doing these very bunkai for years. There are a few variations, but most seniors in these ryu practice bunkai in very much the same way. What sacred cows is he killing?
Hee hee, Gene's seeing if he can stir something up again :D
Gene, Your response is because you've learned non sport oriented karate.
I know that you know there are individuals out there who swear that there are only a couple bunkai for each move and anything else is heresy.
There are also some ryu that are VERY rigid about the interpretaion of kata.
These same people claim that you must be a "Master" in order to analyze kata for bunkai, so all you little followers better stay in line if you want to know the "secrets". Abernethy's come under fire from some of these people.
Then there are some schools that have been so competition oriented for so long, they think what they teach is for the street, and couldn't come up with a decent bunkai if you painted a picture of the application for them. :(
There's a school out here who's attitude is "Here's the one true applicatio for the move and don't you dare suggest anything else." Some of their bunkai would give you the shivers they're so awkward. I'm working with a senior member from the school (20+ years there) showing her the variations on the bunkai and how to analyze them. She's never been shown a single takedown, throw, or joint lock as a bunkai in any of the Heian kata, and the idea of grabbing the attacking limb was rarely if ever used. I've sent her to Abernathy's site. Being a Goju guy I feel he's a better resource for her, but I help in any way I can.
Who looks fights like their kata?
I mean - Who fights like their kata? or Looks like their kata when they fight? etc....
Gene Williams
04-21-2006, 14:46
Hee hee, Gene's seeing if he can stir something up again :D
Gene, Your response is because you've learned non sport oriented karate.
I know that you know there are individuals out there who swear that there are only a couple bunkai for each move and anything else is heresy.
There are also some ryu that are VERY rigid about the interpretaion of kata.
These same people claim that you must be a "Master" in order to analyze kata for bunkai, so all you little followers better stay in line if you want to know the "secrets". Abernethy's come under fire from some of these people.
Then there are some schools that have been so competition oriented for so long, they think what they teach is for the street, and couldn't come up with a decent bunkai if you painted a picture of the application for them. :(
There's a school out here who's attitude is "Here's the one true applicatio for the move and don't you dare suggest anything else." Some of their bunkai would give you the shivers they're so awkward. I'm working with a senior member from the school (20+ years there) showing her the variations on the bunkai and how to analyze them. She's never been shown a single takedown, throw, or joint lock as a bunkai in any of the Heian kata, and the idea of grabbing the attacking limb was rarely if ever used. I've sent her to Abernathy's site. Being a Goju guy I feel he's a better resource for her, but I help in any way I can.
No, Sam, I really wasn't trying to stir anything up. Now, I know what you meant. There is nothing at all wrong with what Abernathy is doing. People need that. He doesn't say much about his background; looks like a mix n match guy to me. What Gives?
Sorry for the double post.
I mean - Who fights like their kata? or Looks like their kata when they fight? etc....I think Socrates here is trying say that learning to move by running kata till your feet are raw, then doing it again everyday, will give you the link you want between the kata and bunkai.
If I may add my two cents about 'hidden movements', I think when you learn the movement in the form so that it is part of the way you move naturally, nothing is hidden anymore. You see oppotunities in everything.
The Circle is now complete.
Twice. :D
It's more like a figure-eight. ;)
Jeff Cook
I mean - Who fights like their kata? or Looks like their kata when they fight? etc....
If by fighting you mean sparring, then you are right. But if you mean fight then the shape of the kata moves, the motions analysed, will look like the kata, depending on the provocation being answered.
Gene Williams
04-21-2006, 20:29
It's more like a figure-eight. ;)
Jeff Cook
We had a dirt figure 8 track out in the county right across from a batting range when I was a kid. Now, it is an effing Wal Mart.
Same here; we used to have flag ponds for muddin', now they are developed.
Jeff Cook
One of my original instructors lives south of Orlando. He could shoot a 30-06 from his back porch at one time. Now people complain. (Except downtown where they use 9mm).
Lee Bruce
04-22-2006, 08:18
look inside your destiny, only then will your Answer seek Your question.
Gene Williams
04-22-2006, 08:54
Yes, Grasshopper, but what is the sound of one dog barking? :bow:
Webmaster
04-22-2006, 09:34
look inside your destiny, only then will your Answer seek Your question.
You and David Carradine sharing the same needle huh?
David Craik
04-22-2006, 10:40
look inside your destiny, only then will your Answer seek Your question.
Passionate kiss like spider's web ... soon lead to undoing of fly. Foolish man give wife grand piano. Wise man give wife upright organ.
Gene Williams
04-22-2006, 10:57
Virgin like balloon...one prick, all gone. :bow:
Woman who jump on inner-spring this Spring
Have offspring, next Spring. :bow:
Crap, here we go again....Gene and Dave, you are baaaad influences on EVERYBODY!
Jeff Cook
It's more like a figure-eight. ;)
Jeff Cook
But turn it on it's side and you have infinity. :bow:
Gene Williams
04-23-2006, 14:46
But turn it on it's side and you have infinity. :bow:
Yes, but Robert and the mods can interrupt infinity. :o
I'm closing this thread. I believe it has gone beyond the scope of the thread.
Don't misunderstand me nothng wrong with a little humor and I'm not upset just that I feel it has gone past it's usefulness.
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