Training Vs. No Training?!?

[Warrior In Training]

Hey Everyone...

Just a bit of a random question for you...

I've just had a very lengthy dissucion with a female friend of mine, and have now turned to you guys for some mental martial back-up...

Basically, my friend is of the opinion that a person that has no training in any form of martial art or self-defence class, could do a reasonable, if not "better" job of defending themselves from an attack, eg: mugging, assualt, etc, than a person that has had training in martial arts or more to the point self-defence classes...

Is it not just common sence that someone that has had training in defending themselves (However limited!) would be more affective at defending themselves, than someone mereley relying on one's emotions and desire to protect one's self?!?

Anyone's and Everyone's Opinion Welcome As Always...

Many Thanks...

Warrior In Training...

:bow:

[QuiKujoJin]

That's a little vague. What was the reasoning behind her argument?

[Warrior In Training]

Sorry...

Her argument is that an individual's "Fight or Flight" or even "Natural Responses" would be adequate to defend yourself, because your emotions would tell your body what to do in that (Any) situation...

She thinks that it makes no difference if you have had training to defend yourself or not! And that if you have had training then you actually more likely to start a confrontation because you think you know how to defend yourself...

[Gene Williams]

Could we apply the same criteria to military combat? That a unit of good ol' boy deer hunters with no training would do better against a unit of regular army infantry than another trained military unit?

[QuiKujoJin]

I think lookign at the news everyday would help with that argument. There are emotional people desiring to stay alive that get killed everyday. How often have you heard "without their training in "insert desired training here" they may have survived?

[Musubi Dojo]

She's right of course.

The "instinctive, emotionally directed" brain surgeons are lot better than med school educated crowd as well.

In fact they're less likely to even recommed brain surgery in the first place, even if you need it... :wink2:

Cheers
c

[moogong]

Sorry...

Her argument is that an individual's "Fight or Flight" or even "Natural Responses" would be adequate to defend yourself, because your emotions would tell your body what to do in that (Any) situation...

She thinks that it makes no difference if you have had training to defend yourself or not! And that if you have had training then you actually more likely to start a confrontation because you think you know how to defend yourself...

First, you train your mind to deal with the effect a fight has on your emotions. At least a good school/instructor develop this.

Second, trouble makers usually get weeded out of a martial arts class. That is unless the instructor likes to teach predators and in that case, the law will catch up to them.

[Warrior In Training]

Thanks For The Martial Mind Back Up Guys...

I was starting to think I was going crazy!

I did end the dissucion on the note of "I truly hope you never have to find out that emotion and instint is not enough, as I hope never to find out that with my training I might stand a better chance of 'surivial' and be able to walk away, and not have a free ride home curtisy of the Blue-Light-Taxi-Service"

But her response was "Well you might find out in a minute!!!"

Hence the disscusion being ended there...

Lol!!!

Thanks everyone...

Oss...

:bow:

[QuiKujoJin]

Well, or maybe she is right... your training and experience should have taught you never to get in an argument with a woman in the first place. :laugh: :D

[Warrior In Training]

Nah, It definately was not an arguement, just a discussion!

:)

[Itten]

She may be right about one thing, a little training and a lot of assumption can get you killed faster than "run like hell". By the way, the fight or flight response also has a third option which is very common in high stress situations, the "possum" response, paralysis and an inability to move. Not really useful as self defense except against raptors that only like moving lunches.

[QuiKujoJin]

I will agree with the "a little training" theory. When I first went to basic training, the drill sergeants told us on the first day on hand-to-hand, "We will teach you just enough to get your *** kicked on your pass". Fortunately, I already had a few years of karate under my belt, so I knew better.

I think that affects your judgment more than anything. I know "....", so therefore I can kick butt.

[BBFC]

Sounds like someone is trying to justified not training and doing all the hardwork require for selfdefense. Yea think that its better not to be prepare, you may really begin to believe it someday.

[Bobby]

Having training gives you a better chance of surviving an assault unscathed what aloud of rubbish. Its like going skydiving without knowing how to open a parachute.

[Cdnronin]

Let's make a comparison to driving a car. when you are first learning, you are excited but scared, and exagerate every movement. How often have you seen a student driver swerving down the road to avoid parked cars? As you become more confident, it is much easier to keep the car on a straight course, and you can do other things at the same time(change radio stations, drink coffee, apply make up in traffic :D ).

You started out paranoid, partially due to everything coming at you faster, and you hurtling towards objects faster than when you are walking or riding a bike. With practice, your paranoia becomes awareness, and eventually becomes part of your subconcious thought. You don't need to think out each move, you just do it. You started in an unfamiliar environment, big difference between sitting in a passenger seat and driving.

While self-protection may be a natural skill, it is also not thought of as "lady-like" so we(most) raise our daughters to not fight. Bad time to overcome social conditioning when someone who outweighs you by 60-100 pounds decides you will satisfy his urges right now.

[Redcat]

She may be right about one thing, a little training and a lot of assumption can get you killed faster than "run like hell".

Yup. And, the best self-defence strategy is conflict avoidance.

I figure whatever karate or self-defence technique I'd ever use in the case of a mugging or assault would be aimed at getting me out of Dodge and nothing more.

[Bobby]

Conflict avoidance isnt always possible, when an intruder enters your home do you just run away or if somone is hurting a friend or family member do you let them get away with it.

[Itten]

This thread is drifting somewhat. If it's self defense we are talking about, proper training is always better than no training. My only observation in response to the original question was to point out that a little training and a lot of over confidence can be more dangerous than no training in SOME situations. Reflexes take a lot of time and practice to become properly ingrained so that new response occur under stress, and that also means training accordingly. Dojos do not necessarily do that, even contact fighting under sports conditions and rules do not do that. Imagining you can do something you actually can't is a typical case of MA fantasy so sometimes reality is needed. If you are actually threatened or your loved ones, of course you have no choice, but I know some women with no training who would tear into anyone threatening their babies, no thought just pure response. Would it be enough. who knows?

[Bobby]

People say simlar things to me sometimes its a jealous responce you get whenever you mention that you do martial arts to someone.